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  #151  
Old 02-25-2019, 01:33 PM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_suicide_bomber

She joined an organization that we are fighting, in every sense of the word. That do not have their own 'country' seems like nitpicking. We were fighting them when she left to join them and she knew that, and we are still fighting them now.

And I think marrying two of them constitutes 'aid and comfort'.
But was she preparing to a be a female suicide bomber? And marrying two of them constitutes marrying two of them, not necessarily 'aid and comfort' as many divorced people will gladly attest. It's also arguable that she may not have had much choice in marrying two of them.
  #152  
Old 02-25-2019, 01:51 PM
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Then her running off to join them was a really dumb move.
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  #153  
Old 02-25-2019, 01:55 PM
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Then her running off to join them was a really dumb move.
Right. Nobody forced her to travel to Syria.
  #154  
Old 02-25-2019, 02:45 PM
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Then her running off to join them was a really dumb move.
Fair point. And she is now indicating that she recognizes this. So...do we award the death penalty for past stupidity?
  #155  
Old 02-25-2019, 03:46 PM
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Fair point. And she is now indicating that she recognizes this. So...do we award the death penalty for past stupidity?
'

What death penalty?
  #156  
Old 02-25-2019, 04:44 PM
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...What death penalty?
The one that can come from a conviction for treason. There are at least two posters ITT who have called for her execution. I'm still wondering if that's really what we're putting on the table here.
  #157  
Old 02-25-2019, 05:09 PM
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The one that can come from a conviction for treason. There are at least two posters ITT who have called for her execution. I'm still wondering if that's really what we're putting on the table here.
I'm wondering if what is really being put on the table here is the idea of holding someone guilty for the crimes of their spouse. We don't put mafia wives in prison for the crimes of their husband unless we can prove the wives participated in the crimes. Saying "Fuck America", burning a flag, etc., are not felonies. Marrying twice in a situation where a woman's survival is dependent on her relationship with a male protector is not a crime either. Destroying a passport may be a minor crime because it is a legal document, but certainly not worthy of execution or losing citizenship. This woman did something incredibly stupid by going Syria abet she made this decision at an age when the United States government doesn't consider her old enough to legally purchase alcohol. I wonder sometimes if she was a bit lighter, had blonde hair, and exposed her bust line would Trump's opinion been more compassionate.

Last edited by ZPG Zealot; 02-25-2019 at 05:12 PM.
  #158  
Old 02-25-2019, 07:11 PM
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This woman did something incredibly stupid by going Syria abet she made this decision at an age when the United States government doesn't consider her old enough to legally purchase alcohol.
She was old enough to make her own decisions. She was old enough to vote. She was old enough to enter into contracts. She was old enough to join the military. We will brook no more insinuations that she was a naive and gullible child and didn't know what she was doing. What, you think she was do young to do a google search for 'taliban'?

She chose to join our enemy. An enemy that actively killing her countrymen. An enemy that was beheading journalists and killing villagers. She can live happy and free....but she can do it somewhere else.
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  #159  
Old 02-25-2019, 07:22 PM
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She joined an organization that we are fighting, in every sense of the word. That do not have their own 'country' seems like nitpicking.
Perhaps. But the government damn well better follow the letter of the law when stripping people of their rights. Short of delousing your child, there is no better time to nitpick.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:38 PM
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It seems to me that the government can't both argue that she's not a citizen and she committed treason. Nor can they simultaneously say it was wrong to destroy a passport if they claim it wasn't a valid one. I realize the government has not done so yet, but some are arguing this here.
  #161  
Old 02-25-2019, 08:07 PM
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Perhaps. But the government damn well better follow the letter of the law when stripping people of their rights. Short of delousing your child, there is no better time to nitpick.
THat horse bolted when droning American citizens without due process became vogue but I agree with the theory.
  #162  
Old 02-25-2019, 10:15 PM
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The one that can come from a conviction for treason. There are at least two posters ITT who have called for her execution. I'm still wondering if that's really what we're putting on the table here.
A question then is- if she faces the DP, or at least a long prison term, why does she want to come back to the USA?
  #163  
Old 02-25-2019, 10:25 PM
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A question then is- if she faces the DP, or at least a long prison term, why does she want to come back to the USA?
She thinks she is more imminently going to die where she is and/or she wants to give her kid a chance? She thinks she will eventually prevail in a U.S. court on the citizenship issue?
  #164  
Old 02-25-2019, 10:36 PM
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She thinks she is more imminently going to die where she is and/or she wants to give her kid a chance? She thinks she will eventually prevail in a U.S. court on the citizenship issue?

Ok, but being a citizen doesn't stop you from being executed as a traitor.
  #165  
Old 02-25-2019, 10:43 PM
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Ok, but being a citizen doesn't stop you from being executed as a traitor.
No, but presumably if someone in the U.S. wants to execute you as a traitor, there will be a trial first, and if you lose, there will be several layers of appeals. I doubt the same is the case in her current circumstances.
  #166  
Old 02-26-2019, 05:54 PM
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This Atlantic article sums up the issue pretty well:
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The impact of Muthana’s case rests on how the government responds to the latest lawsuit: If the White House bases its argument on Ahmed Ali Muthana’s diplomatic status, then the dispute’s impact will be limited. But if the case becomes a referendum on whether a citizen can be denied reentry into the United States, then it can have major repercussions
If it is just the small print of when her dad stopped being a diplomat, then it has no wider implications, and its nothing to do with the constitution or Trump. But there is no guarantee that is in fact the case (and personally I am not going the give the Trump admin the benefit of the doubt on this). If its the Trump admin saying "she's not a citizen because I say so" that is pretty horrifically unconstitutional (and exactly the kind of the thing Trump would do).
  #167  
Old 02-27-2019, 01:15 AM
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She's not a citizen because the Obama administration said so. And they seem to have made that determination based upon her father's diplomatic status.
  #168  
Old 02-27-2019, 06:20 PM
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I agree with this, with the caveat of 'if she didn't commit any crimes'. She should definitely be brought in and questioned, but if she didn't commit any actual crimes then yeah, she could be the poster child for why pulling up stakes and going to live in a tent as an ISIS bride is a bad idea. She could relate her experiences to those who might be thinking of doing similarly stupid things. I understand that a lot of these girls were attracted by basically trolls on internet message boards, saying how great it was and how happy they would be. This would be a good counter message, if the various women who have come back saying how bad it was hasn't been enough.

I don't know enough about the case, but if she was given a US passport and her citizenship was already looked at (basically, she was born here and her dad wasn't a diplomat at the time of her birth), then what Trump et al are doing seems both weak and stupid. If nothing else, let her back in so she can be interrogated and, if she committed crimes let her be tried and sentenced through our system, as any citizen should be.
she stated she wanted to fight us and possibly become a suicide bomber, now she's crying about how unfair that US won't let her back in country so she can recruit other girls to isis--do you really believe her story or trust her
  #169  
Old 02-27-2019, 06:24 PM
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No, that sends the message "if you screw up and realize you did, don't ever set foot in the US again" combined with "Uncle Sam is scared of stupid little teenagers".
and how many "stupid little teenagers" become suicide bombers in Iraq, Afghanistan, and even Europe and US?
  #170  
Old 02-27-2019, 06:34 PM
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she stated she wanted to fight us and possibly become a suicide bomber, now she's crying about how unfair that US won't let her back in country so she can recruit other girls to isis--do you really believe her story or trust her
Is the belief that granting her citizenship makes her immune to prosecution for any crimes she's found to have committed? Because I'd think that the first step to locking her up and throwing away the key would be to admit that she's a citizen and subject to our authority.
  #171  
Old 02-28-2019, 08:27 AM
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I'd think that the first step to locking her up and throwing away the key would be to admit that she's a citizen and subject to our authority.
Citizenship entails rights, pesky little things that keep us from exacting all the vengeance we'd like to. Lack of citizenship allows her to be sent straight to Gitmo to rot.
  #172  
Old 03-04-2019, 11:16 AM
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In case anyone is still following this, the government's response to the father's lawsuit is available here (in pdf). As anticipated, it defends the Obama Administration's determination that her father still enjoyed diplomatic immunity at the time of her birth and, therefore, she has never been a US citizen.
  #173  
Old 03-05-2019, 04:35 AM
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The Onion denounces sexist media:

https://www.theonion.com/sexist-medi...-of-1833041408
  #174  
Old 03-05-2019, 07:55 AM
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The federal judge in Muthana's case has denied the sought expedited handling of this case. Theccasecstill continues under normal rules of civil procedure which give the government up to, and including, April 26, 2019 to more fully respond to the suit.

The government's response in opposition to expedited handling (linked above by Falchion) lays out its approach on the key issue of diplomatic immunity and its impact on children born in the United States. In short, the government argues that the dates it receives official notice that a person has been added or removed to the diplomatic roles are the only dates that matter. In this case it was February 6, 1995 that notice was received that the father was no longer a diplomat - well after the 1994 birth of his daughter. As such his daughter was not "subject to the jurisdiction of" the United States which is a requirement for birthright citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment.
  #175  
Old 03-05-2019, 01:30 PM
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What’s the Islamic State’s position? Do they consider her a POW or AWOL?
  #176  
Old 03-06-2019, 04:15 PM
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Is Hoda Muthana a US citizen & should she be allowed back in the US?


ISTM that this also highlights how because the cases of non-subject births are few and far between, the default, absent some sort of immediate official notification to the contrary, is to presume the birth is subject to the jurisdiction and citizenship applies, and any deeper digging only happens after-the-fact when/if some problem arises.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 03-06-2019 at 04:16 PM.
  #177  
Old 03-07-2019, 04:50 PM
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No, that sends the message "if you screw up and realize you did, don't ever set foot in the US again" combined with "Uncle Sam is scared of stupid little teenagers".
like the ISIS stupid teenage suicide bombers?
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