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Old 03-21-2020, 07:25 PM
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Biggest loser of primary season now that it is decided?


I say Medicare For All. And thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster for that.

I can now comfortably vote for the Democratic candidate and with some support get rid of Trump.

( I would have been forced to vote for Trump to not jeopardize my family's excellent private health insurance for the DMV version).
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Old 03-21-2020, 08:30 PM
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Uggh. While I'm glad you'll vote for the presumptive candidate, that you'd vote for Trump just because of a teeny-tiny chance of harming your insurance, vs mass suffering to thousands upon thousands due to Trump's monstrous policies, does say something about your values.
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Old 03-21-2020, 09:13 PM
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Uggh. While I'm glad you'll vote for the presumptive candidate, that you'd vote for Trump just because of a teeny-tiny chance of harming your insurance, vs mass suffering to thousands upon thousands due to Trump's monstrous policies, does say something about your values.
Yes, I agree that Trump is a despicable monster but I have to look out for my family's well-being first.

But MFA is dead at last I hope. I don't want my family to stand in line at the DMV for medical care.

I hope we can defeat Trump together as Biden voters.
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Old 03-21-2020, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Linden Arden View Post
Yes, I agree that Trump is a despicable monster but I have to look out for my family's well-being first.

But MFA is dead at last I hope. I don't want my family to stand in line at the DMV for medical care.

I hope we can defeat Trump together as Biden voters.
Do you realize that all first world countries (except the US) have socialized medicine and they also have better health outcomes than the US does?

If you want the best medical care for your family M4A is the way to go.
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Old 03-21-2020, 10:20 PM
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Do you realize that all first world countries (except the US) have socialized medicine and they also have better health outcomes than the US does?

If you want the best medical care for your family M4A is the way to go.



I support Universal Health Care! I support the ACA! I support a public option!

I just want to retain my quality private insurance as is my right in a market society and I don't want my family to stand in line for the garbage that 'Medicare For All' will become when everyone has the same shit the US Post Office and DMV sells.

I want to pay for a first class seat. And I will. And Bernie and Liz will wither away like the worthless Useless Idiots they are.
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Old 03-21-2020, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Linden Arden View Post
I support Universal Health Care! I support the ACA! I support a public option!

I just want to retain my quality private insurance as is my right in a market society and I don't want my family to stand in line for the garbage that 'Medicare For All' will become when everyone has the same shit the US Post Office and DMV sells.

I want to pay for a first class seat. And I will. And Bernie and Liz will wither away like the worthless Useless Idiots they are.
That "garbage" provides better health outcomes in most other countries.

In short, you or your employer are paying a LOT of money for sub-standard goods.

Weird thing is you are happy with that.
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Old 03-22-2020, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Linden Arden View Post
I support Universal Health Care! I support the ACA! I support a public option!

I just want to retain my quality private insurance as is my right in a market society and I don't want my family to stand in line for the garbage that 'Medicare For All' will become when everyone has the same shit the US Post Office and DMV sells.

I want to pay for a first class seat. And I will. And Bernie and Liz will wither away like the worthless Useless Idiots they are.
Out of curiosity, would you support the 'medicare extra for all' plan?

https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...extra-for-all/

Its basically a strong public option that auto enrolls the uninsured. People who wanted to keep their private insurance could keep it.
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Old 03-22-2020, 12:29 AM
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The cult of healthcare plans is simply bizarre. It has infected a large portion of the electorate on every possible side of every aisle, every Democratic campaign, as well as pretty much the entire media.

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Do you realize that all first world countries (except the US) have socialized medicine and they also have better health outcomes than the US does?
The first part is flatly untrue.
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Old 03-22-2020, 01:04 AM
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The first part is flatly untrue.
Ok...who did I miss?
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Old 03-22-2020, 02:35 PM
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Do you realize that all first world countries (except the US) have socialized medicine and they also have better health outcomes than the US does?

If you want the best medical care for your family M4A is the way to go.
Sure, they have UHC.

They dont have ANYTHING like Sanders plan, which covers everything (including dental, etc), outlaws private insurance, will bankrupt an entire industry, lay off tens of thousands of workers, etc.


You can have UHC without sanders gold-plated Cadillac plan.

Sander's misleadingly named "M4A" (it has nothing whatsoever to do with medicare) is too big, too expensive and too much of a change. REAL Medicare for all would work.

Biden is proposing a plan where anyone who wants a public option can have it. It could pass Congress.

Sander's crazy plan could never, EVER pass Congress, not even with a solid Dem Majority.

So it's not sanders gold-plated Cadillac plan or nothing at all.
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Old 03-22-2020, 02:56 PM
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There is nothing stopping blue states from enacting medicare for all. But they won't do it either.

Vermont tried, but found it was too expensive (which was short sighted, as M4A would reduce medical costs by 25% over a decade).

Nothing is stopping deeply blue states like CT, CA, RI, etc from enacting a state level medicare for all system.

But if in states where democrats control 70-80% of the state legislature seats and the governorship wont' do it, theres no real chance that it'll happen on a national level where the democrats are lucky to control 51% of the legislature seats.
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Old 03-22-2020, 02:57 PM
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Best, and easiest, health care I ever got was entirely government run - when I was active duty in the Navy. If anyone ever tells you that government run health care always sucks, they obviously never served in the military. The VA needs a lot of improvement, but active duty care is utterly fantastic, with no worries or bureaucracy to deal with. Just great care, already paid for by the government.
Hear, hear! It shouldn't be M4A, it should be "Tri-Care for all!"

When DH was on active duty, and I had a baby on Tri-Care, we didn't pay a penny, and it was a very complicated birth. I also got a 5-day hospital stay.
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Old 03-21-2020, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Linden Arden View Post
Yes, I agree that Trump is a despicable monster but I have to look out for my family's well-being first.

But MFA is dead at last I hope. I don't want my family to stand in line at the DMV for medical care.

I hope we can defeat Trump together as Biden voters.
The thing I don't get about this is that to prevent something you think would take away your healthcare, you would vote for a party that is currently suing the federal government to try to completely remove Obamacare, and a president who is refusing to defend the law in court.

This doesn't exactly matter now as Biden is going to be the nominee and has a UHC proposal you apparently can live with, but I really don't get that this particular issue is a case where Trump is a better candidate than any Democrat in your eyes.

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Old 03-22-2020, 05:28 AM
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Yes, I agree that Trump is a despicable monster but I have to look out for my family's well-being first.
Insurance is important to have, but when you place a greater value on having insurance than on not having a deadly plague loose in the land, I have to worry about you. Insurance won't protect you or your family from catching this thing, nor will it protect you from the societal fallout even if you don't catch it.

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Old 03-21-2020, 10:24 PM
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Best, and easiest, health care I ever got was entirely government run - when I was active duty in the Navy. If anyone ever tells you that government run health care always sucks, they obviously never served in the military. The VA needs a lot of improvement, but active duty care is utterly fantastic, with no worries or bureaucracy to deal with. Just great care, already paid for by the government.
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Old 03-21-2020, 10:50 PM
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...

( I would have been forced to vote for Trump ....

Get the fuck out of here with that not responsible for my own actions BULLSHIT.
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Old 03-21-2020, 11:05 PM
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Rather than beat the M4A dead horse again, it’s clear the biggest loser of the primary season was Elizabeth Warren. Has a major candidate ever finished 3rd in their own state?
Spending so long on fundraising purity tests and then gets exposed as a hypocrite. Rants about super pacs, then has one supporting her with most of the money coming from just one donor.

My guess is Warren resigns from the Senate after 2022 or declines to run for reelection. She can go back to academia and hit the speaking circuit. Massachusetts has a deep D bench and she’s ripe for a primary challenge.
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Old 03-21-2020, 11:14 PM
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Rather than beat the M4A dead horse again, it’s clear the biggest loser of the primary season was Elizabeth Warren. Has a major candidate ever finished 3rd in their own state?
Spending so long on fundraising purity tests and then gets exposed as a hypocrite. Rants about super pacs, then has one supporting her with most of the money coming from just one donor.

My guess is Warren resigns from the Senate after 2022 or declines to run for reelection. She can go back to academia and hit the speaking circuit. Massachusetts has a deep D bench and she’s ripe for a primary challenge.
Thank you! Warren was just a sorry-ass candidate who ran against President Obama and all tech companies and embraced a gigantic $5.2 trillion year single payer debacle. She was a terrible candidate and voters knew it.

PHEW!!!!

For you single payer people - try again in about 10-15 years. Voters hate that shit!
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Old 03-22-2020, 05:51 AM
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People routinely die, here in the United States of America, precisely because it's decided to be a "market society" with respect to health care, which is extremely unsuited for being a market good. And that's just the day-in, day-out side of things.

More germane to our present moment, one outcome of our largely private, "market society" medical system is that it has little in the way of reserve capacity for an outbreak like this. Reserve capacity is an investment with a 0% return, until that day you need it. It's basically an insurance policy, writ large.

But it's a mismatch. We, the people, are the ones who need that reserve capacity. We're the ones who need that insurance policy, not the big corporations that own the chains of hospitals. By letting this big piece of our medical 'system' become privatized, we've placed the maintenance of that reserve in the hands of institutions that have every incentive to get rid of it.

Now, as the storm of COVID-19 gathers force, there is little reserve in the way of everything from hospital beds to personal protective equipment to ventilators, and people are going to die specifically because of these shortages.

This is what happens when you treat health care like a market good.
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Old 03-22-2020, 11:23 AM
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As a Sanders supporter, I'd say Sanders.

He won the first 3 primary states, now has no chance against a candidate who was written off months ago. He went from a revolution to barely pulling in 30-40% of the vote.

Also its becoming clear that a lot of Sanders support in 2016 wasn't because people liked his ideas, it was because they hated Hillary Clinton.

Also people keep making very valid criticisms of Sanders by telling him 'how will you get these laws passed, how will you pay for them' and he has no real answers.

Also Sanders did worse in tons of states this time than he did last time. Including his home state of vermont. He won 85% of the vote in 2016 and barely 50% in 2020.

Also the youth vote didn't show up to help him get elected, and some studies showed him turning off purple voters in the suburbs.

I would say a big winner this primary season though was the concept that you can't buy an election. Bloomberg flooded the airwaves with hundreds of millions of dollars and barely won any delegates. That is a good sign for democracy that money doesn't necessarily equal victory.
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  #21  
Old 03-22-2020, 03:02 PM
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As a Sanders supporter, I'd say Sanders.

He won the first 3 primary states, now has no chance against a candidate who was written off months ago. He went from a revolution to barely pulling in 30-40% of the vote.

Also its becoming clear that a lot of Sanders support in 2016 wasn't because people liked his ideas, it was because they hated Hillary Clinton.

Also people keep making very valid criticisms of Sanders by telling him 'how will you get these laws passed, how will you pay for them' and he has no real answers.

Also Sanders did worse in tons of states this time than he did last time. Including his home state of vermont. He won 85% of the vote in 2016 and barely 50% in 2020.

Also the youth vote didn't show up to help him get elected, and some studies showed him turning off purple voters in the suburbs.

I would say a big winner this primary season though was the concept that you can't buy an election. Bloomberg flooded the airwaves with hundreds of millions of dollars and barely won any delegates. That is a good sign for democracy that money doesn't necessarily equal victory.
Pete Buttigieg won Iowa.
Bernie Sanders won New Hampshire. Still, it was such a narrow win that he ended up tied with Pete for the most delegates in NH, making Pete the delegate leader he don’t into Nevada
That’s not the type of win Sanders was expecting nor what he needed.
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Old 03-22-2020, 03:13 PM
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Pete Buttigieg won Iowa.
Bernie Sanders won New Hampshire. Still, it was such a narrow win that he ended up tied with Pete for the most delegates in NH, making Pete the delegate leader he don’t into Nevada
That’s not the type of win Sanders was expecting nor what he needed.
Damn these timeouts!

Should read ‘making Pete the delegate leader heading into Nevada’
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Old 03-23-2020, 03:21 PM
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Should read ‘making Pete the delegate leader heading into Nevada’
You keep on going on about how your hero won the Grapefruit League. Hell, just the first half of the Grapefruit League, not even the whole thing.
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Old 03-22-2020, 11:55 AM
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First taking a step away from the unfortunately phrased OP and hopping on to dalej42's comment about Warren -- IMO yes the primary season saw on the one hand not so much a straight rejection of the more "pure" progressive stances strictly on their merit, which may have been well received, but on how their presentation began sounding a bit too boondoggley, too trust-me-I'll-make-it-work and could not be succesfuly sold to the public as something that would restore tranquility and normality.

Part it was the hard-left Bernie wing that was allowed to be the ones to define the terms; to use the mentioned example 12 years ago "Medicare for All" was a reasonable sounding proposal (after all, you can STILL pay into a private insurer to get "a first class ticket" over and above basic Medicare) but the Progressive Purists this time around redefined it into something far more thorough that that, and turned it into an "are you with us or against us" challenge question. And to this day some Sanderistas go on along the lines of expecting the winner to embrace the runner-up's key platform, or else.

Yes, Bernie hits his ceiling and prevents Warren from taking off, but at the same time Biden becomes the mainstream standardbearer almost exclusively on "OMG we need the safest choice possible". I dunno about that. The mainstreamers have better be aware that their offer DOES need to contain specific proposals of things that will be different. Having the allegedly liberal party be just more humanitarian pro-corporatists is what got us where we are. Having the priorities of the Nation's well-being hinge on keeping the Dow going up is not any better just because your side will want race/gender diversity in a gun-free boardroom with onsite daycare.

Also as Wesley Clark mentions, another loser is the concept of some sleeping monster youth vote that can turn everything on its head. But maybe that can be turned around into a realization that you have to rise in the ranks, not just stand there and say "we're morally right! yield to us!".

And as to the other matter...
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This is what happens when you treat health care like a market good.
And you get people in the frame of mind that if they "pay for a first class seat" then they will be safe.

Me, this current situation is a problem because by the time the health care providers are back to handling normal cases that "could wait", I may no longer have my first class ticket, and the things that "can wait" could get worse in the meantime...

Last edited by JRDelirious; 03-22-2020 at 12:00 PM.
  #25  
Old 03-23-2020, 02:43 PM
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Progressive leftism lost in a self-fulfilling way. When Democrats clamored for Biden, saying that "only a centrist can beat Trump," this therefore guaranteed that progressives would be perceived as unelectable. Ditto for women. "A woman can't beat Trump," ergo, a woman became unelectable even if she wasn't originally.
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Old 03-23-2020, 03:05 PM
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As one who sells health insurance, the number of elderly people who pine for their private coverage over Medicare is 0. Zero. None. Nada.

We just don't see it. What we do see is the opposite - "My company has me (the owner) on their health insurance rolls, but I turn 65 in X months. Can we price this years' premium without me on it?"

Last edited by JohnT; 03-23-2020 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 03-23-2020, 06:37 PM
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As one who sells health insurance, the number of elderly people who pine for their private coverage over Medicare is 0. Zero. None. Nada.

."
Now it is one.

My private insurance, since I am a Govt retiree is better than Medicare and cheaper, and for a small amount extra I can cover my wife.

So yeah, I signed for Part A, Free, but declined parts B, etc.
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:14 AM
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Now it is one.

My private insurance, since I am a Govt retiree is better than Medicare and cheaper, and for a small amount extra I can cover my wife.

So yeah, I signed for Part A, Free, but declined parts B, etc.
My father, also a government retiree, elected to keep his private insurance upon retirement. Like you, he does have Part A.

He chose that because his wife was, at the time of his retirement, very, very sick (terminally sick, as it turned out), and they thought it best not to change horses in midstream, so to speak.

Now, some years later, it's turning out that Medicare would be much, much better for him. He's in a "memory care" residence, and everything there is geared towards Medicare. The doctors there won't even take his insurance.

Not second-guessing your choice, but in the long run, that was the wrong choice for my father. Everyone's circumstances are different, of course.
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Old 03-24-2020, 03:44 PM
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You're a smart, earnest guy. That's why it's so annoying when you're purposely full of shit. The Grapefruit league has zero impact on the regular season. It's not the first couple of games of the regular season. Since you know a great deal about baseball and all.
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Old 03-21-2020, 10:24 PM
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Thank you all for your kindness to me, I wish you good health and good luck!
Official Website:[URL="xxx[/URL]
Reported.
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Old 03-21-2020, 11:56 PM
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Reported.
Same
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