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  #101  
Old 03-03-2020, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
Before you use this crisis to promote Medicare for All, you might want to wait and see how the health systems in Canada, the UK, and other places with single payer do. Canada hasn't really been affected yet, but from what I'm hearing about the NHS, it's already having problems.

When asking people to compare systems, you'd better first make sure the comparison helps your case.
In the U.S. system, if you want to be tested for the coronavirus, you're on the hook for the bill.

How do you get more stupid than that?


Oh yeah, and this: https://miami.cbslocal.com/2020/03/0...roper-testing/
  #102  
Old 03-03-2020, 08:54 AM
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Speaking of coronavirus testing, there's this from a TPM reader from Kirkland, Washington:
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Thought you might be curious to hear from someone who lives about 500 yards from the nursing care facility and down the street from the hospital at ground zero.

People here are actually quite calm and normal. There are grocery store runs on staples and you can’t get any hand sanitizer. As parents we feel doomed that open schools will mean inevitable spread to everyone.

The scandal is that no one is offering our community coordinated testing. We are totally in the dark about how widespread this is going to be. We are being given advice to avoid contact but go about our normal days, which is useless because it is contradictory and also it is advice given without any knowledge of the extent of the spread.

The national press briefings are clownish when people are dying a football field away from you. To hear every briefing kick off with a celebration of the President is insulting beyond belief to people living in an outbreak zone. Everyone should be hammering the administration for community wide testing and should be asking Trump right to his face when it will begin. Over and over and over again.
  #103  
Old 03-03-2020, 09:57 AM
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Trump does not like tests. He'll probably pay someone to take his test for him.
  #104  
Old 03-03-2020, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
Before you use this crisis to promote Medicare for All, you might want to wait and see how the health systems in Canada, the UK, and other places with single payer do. Canada hasn't really been affected yet, but from what I'm hearing about the NHS, it's already having problems.

When asking people to compare systems, you'd better first make sure the comparison helps your case.
My question on this is whether in Canada you can expect poor workers who feel respiratory illnesses to continue going to work, because they lack sick leave and can't afford to take an unpaid day or to risk losing their jobs? Can you expect to be served at restraurants by sniffly workers? Can you expect your groceries to be checked out by someone with a fever?

US health policy has some unique features that are very pandemic-friendly.
  #105  
Old 03-03-2020, 11:19 AM
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Here's an interesting prediction: Pence to be dumped from ticket on July 16, 2020

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“He’s going to dump Mike Pence and put Nikki Haley on the ticket to try to get those suburban moms,” Begala said. “You watch. Guaranteed.”

Trump has already laid the groundwork for dismissing Pence.

“Trump put Pence in charge of coronavirus to throw him under the bus,” Begala said.
Interesting. It wraps up things pretty tidy: the admiration between the two is certainly not mutual. He'd like to get Haley on the ticket to attempt to appeal to women, and putting Pence in charge of corona means that there will be an excuse to dump him.
  #106  
Old 03-03-2020, 01:17 PM
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Here's an interesting prediction: Pence to be dumped from ticket on July 16, 2020

Interesting. It wraps up things pretty tidy: the admiration between the two is certainly not mutual. He'd like to get Haley on the ticket to attempt to appeal to women, and putting Pence in charge of corona means that there will be an excuse to dump him.
Wouldn't that risk the whole Evangelical vote? Not that they'd vote D, but they might be pissed enough to stay home. That could swing Indiana (especially), Iowa and other states to the D candidate. Haley might be anti-abortion and all, but she's hardly the Christian warrior Pence makes himself out to be.
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  #107  
Old 03-03-2020, 01:46 PM
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Evangelicals are completely in the tank for Trump, as little sense as that makes.

My son lives in the eastern Seattle suburb right next to Kirkland, and he too is reporting that people are worried but that they are also not really taking extreme measures. I would be completely freaking out except that he is 20 years old and in good health.
  #108  
Old 03-03-2020, 01:59 PM
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Wouldn't that risk the whole Evangelical vote? Not that they'd vote D, but they might be pissed enough to stay home. That could swing Indiana (especially), Iowa and other states to the D candidate. Haley might be anti-abortion and all, but she's hardly the Christian warrior Pence makes himself out to be.
It seems to me that the least of his worries are the Evangelicals. They're 1 justice away from overturning Roe and they would never vote D no matter who wears the D or R jerseys. I'm not sure how popular Pence really is in Indiana, but if it's close enough to where Indiana is in play, it's going to be a really rough election for Republicans.

I'm not sure I buy the dumping Pence theory, but I do find it interesting. It would be funny that after four years of battling Lindsey Graham in the ass-kissing contest that he'd be cast aside like an old shoe.
  #109  
Old 03-05-2020, 12:14 PM
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New poll regarding the politics of Covfefe-19: https://www.protectourcare.org/wp-co...sults-3-20.pdf (PDF link)

From the summary:

Quote:
Voters take the virus a lot more seriously than the president does. Only 8% of voters agree with Trump’s claim that the virus is a Democratic hoax, while 82% think the virus is real. Only 16% of Trump’s own voters agree with him that the virus is a hoax.

Trump’s handling of the coronavirus could threaten his reelection. By a 20-point margin, voters say his administration’s handling of the virus makes them less likely to vote for him this fall. Independents say they’re less likely to vote for Trump by 32 points because of how he’s dealt with this issue. Only 37% of voters agree with Trump’s assessment that his administration is doing a “great job” dealing with the coronavirus, while 53% disagree.

Voters are also concerned about the administration’s failure to commit to an affordable coronavirus vaccine – 67% of voters have serious concerns about the administration’s statement that “they can’t control that price.” 61% of voters also have serious concerns with the administration’s advice –“tell people to turn their televisions off for 24 hours” -- in response to the historic decline in the stock market.
  #110  
Old 03-05-2020, 04:18 PM
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Great poll, although to be fair to Trump (not a phrase you'll often hear me say), his "hoax" characterization was not about the virus itself, but about Democratic claims that he has mishandled it. (I don't think that's a hoax either, but it's more arguable.)

ETA: Do I really mind if swing voters think Trump called the virus itself a "hoax"? No. No I do not.
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  #111  
Old 03-05-2020, 08:48 PM
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It's fine that educated presidential intestines can outsmart all them fancy-pants doctors and experts who've worked on virus shit like this all their careers. We know who to trust, for sure - guts will lead us to safety. Flatulate onward!
  #112  
Old 03-06-2020, 09:25 AM
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Typical! Take a perfectly normal decision making technique, and pretend it something irrational! Its not something stupid like "feminine intuition", Il Douche specifically called it a "hunch". You know, like a dog does to a leg...
  #113  
Old 03-06-2020, 09:40 AM
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It's fine that educated presidential intestines can outsmart all them fancy-pants doctors and experts who've worked on virus shit like this all their careers. We know who to trust, for sure - guts will lead us to safety. Flatulate onward!
You have to admit he's got the most impressive gut since William Howard Taft.
  #114  
Old 03-06-2020, 11:10 AM
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This poll to me illustrates the danger of using COVID-19 politically at this point.

Trumps say and does so many very ignorant and stupid things. There is no need to distort what he says like this does and doing that is a bad move.

Saw another one in which a HuffPo article was saying that Trump was advising people to work with COVID-19. He did not say that. He was making the not unreasonable point that it appears there are some large number of people without risk factors who have very mild disease, and may even be working unawares. How he managed to say something accurate I don't know! But it was not a recommendation for people to do that.

There is a very good possibility that by April new cases will be falling off with a low case fatality rate as milder cases get added into the denominator with wide spread testing, less than seasonal influenza (likely to remerge in the late Fall in a less virulent form). Democrats would be idiotic to say things that make Trump look right and them wrong if that is what happens.
  #115  
Old 03-06-2020, 12:41 PM
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So. even a coffin can have a silver lining?

And that last part? Why is it likely that a less virulent form will emerge? Do we actually know any of that? Do we know that a survivor of corona will acquire immunity to all its forms? We do know that a sudden disappearance or a mutation to a milder form is possible, but what do we actually know about how likely that is?

No snark intended, but how do we know what the virus will do, or even hazard a educated guess? It could happen just like Il Douche suggests, and he will move at warp speed to claim credit. True, a massive pandemic of fatality might doom his re-election chances, but am I willing to pay that price? Gimme a minute...no. Wait, how "massive"? No, still no! Bad brain, stop!
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  #116  
Old 03-06-2020, 12:52 PM
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The virus is inevitably going to claim more lives. For ordinary people, COVID-19 isn't particularly life-threatening, but for people with weakened lungs and for people over the age of 70, it's extremely dangerous, and there will be more cases. We're too late in terms of controlling the vectors. We should have been testing for it on a much wider scale than we have been, and at least 3-4 weeks earlier. Health officials assumed it probably wouldn't be much of a factor outside of China and we're paying the price for it now, and will probably for another 3-6 weeks.
  #117  
Old 03-06-2020, 01:05 PM
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The virus is inevitably going to claim more lives. For ordinary people, COVID-19 isn't particularly life-threatening, but for people with weakened lungs and for people over the age of 70, it's extremely dangerous, and there will be more cases. We're too late in terms of controlling the vectors. We should have been testing for it on a much wider scale than we have been, and at least 3-4 weeks earlier. Health officials assumed it probably wouldn't be much of a factor outside of China and we're paying the price for it now, and will probably for another 3-6 weeks.
Age 71 here.

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  #118  
Old 03-06-2020, 01:45 PM
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So. even a coffin can have a silver lining?

And that last part? Why is it likely that a less virulent form will emerge? Do we actually know any of that? Do we know that a survivor of corona will acquire immunity to all its forms? We do know that a sudden disappearance or a mutation to a milder form is possible, but what do we actually know about how likely that is?

No snark intended, but how do we know what the virus will do, or even hazard a educated guess? It could happen just like Il Douche suggests, and he will move at warp speed to claim credit. True, a massive pandemic of fatality might doom his re-election chances, but am I willing to pay that price? Gimme a minute...no. Wait, how "massive"? No, still no! Bad brain, stop!
We don't "know" ... that is why I phrased it as "a very good possibility".

Likely yes, just because of evolutionary pressure: less virulent versions tends to outcompete more virulent forms because they do not lay up their hosts; those minimally ill go to work, parties, bars ... As it spreads it leaves fewer susceptible to the more virulent form in its wake, at least until the mutations are great enough at the key locations.

Long term view is that cornaviruses have likely been crossing over from long before we've recognized them as such, not just in the last twenty years. There have been no Spanish flu coronavirus years. My hypothesis is that the deaths from those events, likely tens to hundreds of thousands globally, have been just lost as statistical noise in the background of seasonal flu morbidity and mortality year on year variation in the past.

No need to repeat discussions had elsewhere on these boards. NO QUESTION that there are great unknowns about this and attempting to prevent or at least delay its spread as much as is reasonably possible is worthwhile. It is also prudent to be prepared for worst case scenarios even if they are unlikely. I have every expectation that I am not going to be hit by a car today on my bike but I wear my helmet anyway. I don't expect to be in a car accident but I always wear my seatbelts. A minimal expectation is having the equal of an additional mild flu season on top of regular flu season, through the end of this flu season and into next. That is a bad enough storm to be braced for, and Trump's mishandlings will make the consequences of that alone worse. If I am being excessively optimistic it might end up worse than that and we need to be ready for such.
  #119  
Old 03-06-2020, 02:03 PM
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Nobody is 'using' COVID-19 politically, but the argument that it shouldn't have political ramifications is, well, naive.

I mean, we are rapidly approaching a point where, because of our bungled response to this, other countries may decide to prevent US citizens from flying in. Regardless of the real-world effects such a decision may have, it will also have a political impact as well.

And distorting what the President says? lol, this has been a thing in this country since 1790.
  #120  
Old 03-06-2020, 05:10 PM
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Keep Calm and...
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  #121  
Old 03-07-2020, 02:41 AM
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We’re in Florence. Every time I cough, people stare at me
  #122  
Old 03-07-2020, 07:50 AM
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Not sure where this goes...

‘Maybe I have a natural ability’: Trump plays medical expert on coronavirus by second-guessing the professionals
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...bbf_story.html
Quote:
President Trump likes to say that he fell into politics almost by accident, and on Friday, as he sought to calm a nation gripped with fears over coronavirus, he suggested he would have thrived in another profession — medical expert.

“I like this stuff. I really get it,” Trump boasted to reporters during a tour of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, where he met with actual doctors and scientists who are feverishly scrambling to contain and combat the deadly illness. Citing a “great, super-genius uncle” who taught at MIT, Trump professed that it must run in the family genes.

“People are really surprised I understand this stuff,” he said. “Every one of these doctors said, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability.”
....
There really is no limit to his ego or to his delusions.
  #123  
Old 03-07-2020, 08:15 AM
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Beginning to wonder if Pence is praying hard enough, I mean, he's only got the one job. Maybe bring on Jared as co-prayer.? You know, just in case.
  #124  
Old 03-07-2020, 08:16 AM
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Not sure where this goes...

‘Maybe I have a natural ability’: Trump plays medical expert on coronavirus by second-guessing the professionals
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...bbf_story.html

There really is no limit to his ego or to his delusions.
We will quickly move past the point at which the disease can be contained; efforts will shift away from trying to control the spread to controlling the political damage. He'll viciously go after anyone who contradicts his public statements.
  #125  
Old 03-07-2020, 02:50 PM
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Political damage works in several directions: Iranian MP dies from coronavirus. Trimp will take credit when enough enemies have croaked.
  #126  
Old 03-07-2020, 06:40 PM
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We will quickly move past the point at which the disease can be contained; efforts will shift away from trying to control the spread to controlling the political damage. He'll viciously go after anyone who contradicts his public statements.

He has already done this, even rebuking Pence for saying anything nice about Jay Inslee.

And that comment about how maybe he should have been an epidemiologist or whatever… That’s one of those deals that the Onion cannot even match. It’s amazing that he doesn’t seem to have a clue as to how cringe he sounds.
  #127  
Old 03-08-2020, 08:27 AM
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Age 71 here.

Now wearing gloves when I use the SDMB.
And remember not to touch your face!

ISTM that the best thing for the Dems to do is just exercise their Congressional oversight responsibilities. Have they had any hearings about the Administration's handling of the coronavirus? If not, why not? They've been saying for the past two years that they want to run on health care - well, here's your chance, guys!
  #128  
Old 03-08-2020, 03:52 PM
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ISTM that the best thing for the Dems to do is just exercise their Congressional oversight responsibilities. Have they had any hearings about the Administration's handling of the coronavirus? If not, why not? They've been saying for the past two years that they want to run on health care - well, here's your chance, guys!
So congressional committees subpoena executive minions who refuse to appear. Will the House cut agency or White House money till someone shows up aka blackmail? Right. Oversight doesn't mean Congress runs things. This administration eschews oversight. SOS.
  #129  
Old 03-09-2020, 07:51 PM
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I still think the OP's phrasing is grotesque, but it's becoming more and more clear that the Administration response isn't criminally negligent only because it didn't occur to anyone that such criminal laws would be necessary.

It's not that the pandemic is a great opportunity. But the administration should be held to the highest standard possible in their preparation for, and response to, the pandemic; and in any case where they fall short (and holy shit, y'all), Democrats need to be talking about what a competent and non-corrupt administration would do instead.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 03-09-2020 at 07:51 PM.
  #130  
Old 03-09-2020, 09:20 PM
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I agree Left Hand of Dorkness, I also did point at the gross way the OP approached this, and it has been easy for Republicans to use that in an attempt to make it backfire on the Democrats, unfortunately for them even some Trump supporters are beginning to notice now how incompetent and ignorant the current leadership is.
  #131  
Old 03-09-2020, 09:25 PM
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Agreed that the phrasing is unfortunate. But it is true that disasters are places where leaders show what they got. Great leadership reveals itself in those times (Lincoln would not have been much remembered if nothing of note had happened during his term), and incompetence is also shown more clearly.

Pointing out incompetence and its consequences in that context will be expected. Using the fact that tragic events demonstrate how bad of a leader someone is something I'd love to not have a chance to do, but reality is that such is the circumstance we are likely to be in, to one degree or another (even COVID-19 being a moderate influenza-level event occurring as regular influenza season ramps up in the Fall, will be horrific). I hope not at all, and maybe it WILL fizzle ... but right now this is a significant force hurricane heading straight at a major population center and leadership is going "what storm?" It could veer off, but I wouldn't bet on that.
  #132  
Old 03-09-2020, 09:33 PM
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... even some Trump supporters are beginning to notice now how incompetent and ignorant the current leadership is.
A little slow on the uptake. Dumber than a sack of wet mice.
  #133  
Old 03-10-2020, 04:04 AM
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So congressional committees subpoena executive minions who refuse to appear. Will the House cut agency or White House money till someone shows up aka blackmail? Right. Oversight doesn't mean Congress runs things. This administration eschews oversight. SOS.
I'm quite aware of what oversight does and doesn't do, thanks. But even if they can't compel the testimony of a single Executive Branch official, there's still plenty of information already in the public record, but it's scattered across various sources from the past two months or so.

They can pull together that historical record, they can interview experts from outside the Administration, they can summarize the story of how this Administration has blown it so far, and where we should be now. And then tell the public what we should do next, now that we're in this timeline rather than the one where we had a competent government responding to this crisis.

ETA: Really the only reason you'd need to interview Administration officials is to lay the blame on specific persons within the Administration. That's not necessary here.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 03-10-2020 at 04:05 AM.
  #134  
Old 03-11-2020, 08:34 PM
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The upcoming pandemic benefits Tramp, not any Dem challenger. Watch the White House focus any relief efforts on red states while denying aid to blue states. At that level, it's massive votive suppression. But if / when the crisis spirals out of control with a large portion of the populace infected, that's just a great excuse to declare a State Of Emergency, round up sick dissidents, and cancel the November election.
This is more or less how I see it, although it's not so simple as breaking the glass and pulling the lever labeled "cancel the November election". The states hold a lot of the power here.

But I give Trump the advantage in this pandemic situation. His presidency has been kept afloat by the glib phrase "how's your 401k", which is now evaporating before our eyes.

He absolutely cannot lose this election because he will be looking at serious criminal charges the moment he stops being president. Therefore he will do anything to remain president. Should it become clear that the recession is seriously bad and getting worse, he will use the pandemic to do whatever he can to inject chaos, confusion, and delay into the electoral process, anything at all to stay president as long as possible, fighting it one day at a time. Expect voter suppression. Expect manufactured riots. Expect suppression of the free press. Expect outrageous limitation on movements at the border. Expect caravan stories. Expect wars of distraction.

This is going to be a nasty election and I predict the serious nastiness is going to start around July, when the Supreme Court lays its cards on the table regarding the Mazars subpoenas. If this doesn't go Trump's way, all gloves are off.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 03-11-2020 at 08:37 PM.
  #135  
Old 03-11-2020, 09:29 PM
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As usual, not sure where to post this.

A friend of mine had a great idea for the cruise ships with quarantined passengers: send them all to Mar-A-Lago! I'm sure there's plenty of room there, right?
  #136  
Old 03-11-2020, 10:16 PM
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For the record, the one thing needed to get Trump gone was a recession before the election.

Whee....

On the financial side, the one bonus is that the longer the wound festered, the worse it was going to be. One might view any economic downturn that comes from this as a pressure release - annoying, but necessary.

The pestilence and plague is harder to be warm towards.

But I do hope and believe that this is finally the moment when everyone had to admit that the man is actually as stupid as everyone says.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 03-11-2020 at 10:17 PM.
  #137  
Old 03-12-2020, 01:40 AM
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Pelosi shows how it's done. This is such a stellar, well-timed proposal. Great politics because great policy: absolutely ideal!
https://www.speaker.gov/newsroom/31120-2

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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
I still think the OP's phrasing is grotesque

But you have yet to say why. Because lives are at stake? Same is true about gun policy, military policy, health policy, criminal justice policy, policy about nearly everything that matters--even the National Weather Service. Why is it grotesque to see a political opportunity here but not in those areas? Or are you against seeing such opportunity on any issue that's not totally anodyne? I'm sorry, but to me this verges awfully close to the typical GOP talking point after a mass shooting: "Hearts and prayers, this is no time to politicize a tragedy, blah blah blah". Fuck that noise.
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  #138  
Old 03-12-2020, 06:04 AM
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But you have yet to say why.
I don't generally find that addressing you directly does anyone much good, but I'll say here: no, I haven't, nor do I plan to, get bogged down in explaining what's grotesque about your phrasing. Maybe someone else plans to fight that battle, but not me.
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Old 03-12-2020, 06:15 AM
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But you have yet to say why. Because lives are at stake?
The debate over politicizing tragedy will be endless. The advantaged team will claim it vindicates their policy; the disadvantaged team will cry callousness and bad luck.

There is nothing wrong with saying we elected a bad person who defunded public health and pandemic readiness, and we are now facing a pandemic, and he is now treating it mainly as a recession risk. Literally he had one job to do, he failed to do it, and he keeps failing by the day.
  #140  
Old 03-12-2020, 08:22 AM
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Democrats would look foolish if they deliberately politicize the crisis; they should simply call for more testing and for better access to healthcare - that's all they need to do. Economically, they need to urge more direct stimulus in the hands of households and businesses - that's pretty much it. Let Trump hang himself with his own rope. This is the kind of crisis that will expose Trump, just like Katrina and the housing crisis exposed Bush.
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Old 03-12-2020, 08:54 AM
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Democrats would look foolish if they deliberately politicize the crisis; they should simply call for more testing and for better access to healthcare - that's all they need to do. Economically, they need to urge more direct stimulus in the hands of households and businesses - that's pretty much it.
I'm kinda split on this... as a matter of principle, I think this situation calls for shoveling cash out of helicopters. But... much depends on where that cash gets shoveled. And if you're thinking it might show Republican hypocrisy about deficit spending on social problems when it matters, well, I direct you back to the Trump tax cuts and tariff handouts. Republican shame is dead.

Quote:
Let Trump hang himself with his own rope. This is the kind of crisis that will expose Trump, just like Katrina and the housing crisis exposed Bush.
As far as the base is concerned, neither of those is true. Nobody raises an eyebrow at seeing a man's beer gut when he's already exposed his asshole.
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Old 03-12-2020, 09:13 AM
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Here's the best way to take advantage of this crisis: contrast what Democratic governors in blue states like New York, California, and Washington are doing, compare what competent administrators of universities and local schools are doing, compare what mayors of cities are doing...to what these thicker than pigshit lying assholes are doing.

I think people are going to start noticing this. Granted, as I told my wife recently, Trump could strip naked, run around and shit on the White House lawn, and 35-38% of voters would probably support him, in words if not votes. Even in landslide elections, there's 40% of the vote that goes to the loser. But 55-60% of the vote is enough to change politics in a massive way. I think this can happen. But it won't happen if we use shameless tricks; it'll happen through leadership.
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Old 03-12-2020, 09:24 AM
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Here's the best way to take advantage of this crisis: contrast what Democratic governors in blue states like New York, California, and Washington are doing, compare what competent administrators of universities and local schools are doing, compare what mayors of cities are doing...to what these thicker than pigshit lying assholes are doing.

I think people are going to start noticing this. Granted, as I told my wife recently, Trump could strip naked, run around and shit on the White House lawn, and 35-38% of voters would probably support him, in words if not votes. Even in landslide elections, there's 40% of the vote that goes to the loser. But 55-60% of the vote is enough to change politics in a massive way. I think this can happen. But it won't happen if we use shameless tricks; it'll happen through leadership.
Okay. What have you done with asahi?

There's actually a whisper of optimism, or at least, possibility, in this post.

Also, you're married?? That was never part of my picture of you.
  #144  
Old 03-12-2020, 09:31 AM
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But you have yet to say why. Because lives are at stake? Same is true about gun policy, military policy, health policy, criminal justice policy, policy about nearly everything that matters--even the National Weather Service. Why is it grotesque to see a political opportunity here but not in those areas? Or are you against seeing such opportunity on any issue that's not totally anodyne? I'm sorry, but to me this verges awfully close to the typical GOP talking point after a mass shooting: "Hearts and prayers, this is no time to politicize a tragedy, blah blah blah". Fuck that noise.
My take:

Good governance should always be focused on positive outcomes for society. While of course acquiring political power might also be a sub-objective or outcome, the mission should always be driven by social good.

When politics becomes the story, when victory becomes the mission, there's all sorts of ways in which the social good can get overlooked. The bigger the crisis, the more potential for disaster when things get overlooked or mis-managed.

There's an increasingly overwhelming feeling that Democrats' mission statement must be "defeat Republicans". This is a weak mission, and it intentionally subjugates "doing the right thing" to the primacy of acquiring power.

Your OP suggests that what is potentially a national/global disaster should be used by Democrats as an opportunity to take, as opposed as an opportunity to give or to lead. That's what's "grotesque" about it.
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Old 03-12-2020, 09:52 AM
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Your OP suggests that what is potentially a national/global disaster should be used by Democrats as an opportunity to take, as opposed as an opportunity to give or to lead. That's what's "grotesque" about it.
You act like he's proposing an opportunity to gain power just for the sake of power, and I grant that perhaps the OP was worded like that. But the Trump party is responsible for grotesque abuses against humanity and we may not have seen the worst of it. There is absolutely nothing grotesque about talking about ways to take the reins of power from such a cruel, dangerous, self-serving monster.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 03-12-2020 at 09:54 AM.
  #146  
Old 03-12-2020, 09:53 AM
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Also, you're married?? That was never part of my picture of you.
What, you thought men were born already bitter and cynical?
  #147  
Old 03-12-2020, 12:01 PM
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You act like he's proposing an opportunity to gain power just for the sake of power, and I grant that perhaps the OP was worded like that. But the Trump party is responsible for grotesque abuses against humanity and we may not have seen the worst of it. There is absolutely nothing grotesque about talking about ways to take the reins of power from such a cruel, dangerous, self-serving monster.
You don't need to convince me of the degree to which the current political situation is disasterous. But, the question at hand was the phrasing of the OP, not whether or not Trump et al are causing harm.

My point is that "removing Trump from office" should always be a second-level initiative that serves a larger mission of "providing for the common welfare" (or some other such mission). It's a tool or step to achieve a goal, and is not the goal itself.

In the case of COVID-19, there are so many more pressing and immediate ways in which we need our government and leaders to attend to the common welfare than spending energy blaming Republicans, or strategizing about what the increased deaths among the senior population will do to voting demographics.

Strong/effective response and leadership by Democrats will serve the health needs of the population first, and also perhaps stand in opposition to the apparent mis-management in the Executive branch. Yes, we can tell that story, but we can and should let actions tell the story first.
  #148  
Old 03-12-2020, 04:16 PM
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If Dems thought COVID would be a great issue, they'd have bought control of toilet-paper makers, and profited - or caused a fake TP shortage leading to widespread panic and burning of GOP party offices.

Hey, an unforeseen consequence: Less TP-ng of homes as pranks! Only rich kids could afford that now.
  #149  
Old 03-12-2020, 06:46 PM
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Has anyone watched the testimony about COVID-19 in the Senate? There's a guy in the background wearing a black turtleneck and glasses. He has the turtleneck pulled up to his nose and occasionally reaches up and adjusts it on his face. Is this supposed to be a makeshift mask? I think this is on the testimony from earlier today.

Last edited by Skypist; 03-12-2020 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Prematurely posted
  #150  
Old 03-12-2020, 11:55 PM
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Jumping in late here.

What I feel the Democrats should do is not make a political issue out of this. This is both a national and a global crisis. They should offer their support to any efforts being made to address the situation. And not make it an issue of partisan politics.

They should do this because it's the right thing to do. But sometimes doing what's right can also been the beneficial thing for you to do. Because while the Democrats should avoid bringing politics into this crisis, politics is always going to be there in the background. The Democrats should be out there working to handle this crisis in the most responsible and effective manner. And the Trump administration can handle it as it will. Then in November, the voters can decide who they want to be in charge for the next four years.

The Democrats should take this as an opportunity to demonstrate that they are the better party and why letting the better party run the country is important.
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