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  #151  
Old 03-13-2020, 03:55 AM
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That kind of high-minded, high-ground, low-key, "lead by example", "deeds not words" strategy is...well, it's just bad strategy IMO. Low information swing voters are not smart or perspicacious enough to catch on unless you really pound it into their thick skulls.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
The debate over politicizing tragedy will be endless. The advantaged team will claim it vindicates their policy; the disadvantaged team will cry callousness and bad luck.

There is nothing wrong with saying we elected a bad person who defunded public health and pandemic readiness, and we are now facing a pandemic, and he is now treating it mainly as a recession risk. Literally he had one job to do, he failed to do it, and he keeps failing by the day.

Precisely.


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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Democrats would look foolish if they deliberately politicize the crisis; they should simply call for more testing and for better access to healthcare - that's all they need to do. Economically, they need to urge more direct stimulus in the hands of households and businesses - that's pretty much it. Let Trump hang himself with his own rope. This is the kind of crisis that will expose Trump, just like Katrina and the housing crisis exposed Bush.

So you think it was a mistake for Biden to call Trump out for his mismanagement of the crisis in his presidential-style address today (Thursday)? I strenuously disagree.
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  #152  
Old 03-13-2020, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Jumping in late here.

What I feel the Democrats should do is not make a political issue out of this. This is both a national and a global crisis. They should offer their support to any efforts being made to address the situation. And not make it an issue of partisan politics.
You know, of all the possible candidates for president, which one would you most want to be in charge during a pandemic? The answer seems absurdly obvious, almost trick-question obvious: Elizabeth Warren. But we don't have that option anymore. Sigh.

Pelosi is handling things well, by which I mean making a clear, specific proposal and then negotiating for its passage without engaging in partisan sniping. The politics comes in when McConnell and Trump act like partisan hacks. Pelosi can criticize their responses, but should do so by comparing what they've failed to do to the specific proposal they could pass but haven't, and promising that a Democratic government will act quickly, specifically, and pragmatically in the face of a real crisis.
  #153  
Old 03-13-2020, 07:47 AM
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I think the Dems should have an ad campaign telling Trump to "Lead or Leave."

I'd actually prefer that they impeach him for his extreme dereliction of duty in a major crisis, but they won't do that.
  #154  
Old 03-13-2020, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Jumping in late here.



What I feel the Democrats should do is not make a political issue out of this. This is both a national and a global crisis. They should offer their support to any efforts being made to address the situation. And not make it an issue of partisan politics.
Too late. This has already been politicized by Trump and Trump TV.
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post

The Democrats should take this as an opportunity to demonstrate that they are the better party and why letting the better party run the country is important.
You know, when this is over, Trump & Co. will be spinning the narrative that he single-handedly saved the day. Nothing the Democrats do will be noticed over the noise of Trump's propaganda machine.
  #155  
Old 03-13-2020, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Jumping in late here.

What I feel the Democrats should do is not make a political issue out of this. This is both a national and a global crisis. They should offer their support to any efforts being made to address the situation. And not make it an issue of partisan politics.

They should do this because it's the right thing to do. But sometimes doing what's right can also been the beneficial thing for you to do. Because while the Democrats should avoid bringing politics into this crisis, politics is always going to be there in the background. The Democrats should be out there working to handle this crisis in the most responsible and effective manner. And the Trump administration can handle it as it will. Then in November, the voters can decide who they want to be in charge for the next four years.

The Democrats should take this as an opportunity to demonstrate that they are the better party and why letting the better party run the country is important.
As far as I can tell, the Democrats are NOT making an issue out of this and they are doing exactly what you say at the end of your post. Hell, they don't NEED to make an issue. It's as plain as the orange nose on trump's face. In spite of his umpty-umpth attempt to blame Obama:

Trump ties Obama to CDC's 'inadequate' testing
Quote:
President Trump on Friday again claimed that his response to the coronavirus was hindered by the Obama administration, which left office three years ago.

Mr. Trump attacked former President Barack Obama, who served with Mr. Trump’s likely Democratic challenger, Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., in two posts on Twitter.

“For decades the @CDCgov looked at, and studied, its testing system, but did nothing about it,” Mr. Trump wrote. “It would always be inadequate and slow for a large scale pandemic, but a pandemic would never happen, they hoped. President Obama made changes that only complicated things further.

“Their response to H1N1 Swine Flu was a full scale disaster, with thousands dying, and nothing meaningful done to fix the testing problem, until now,” he continued. “The changes have been made and testing will soon happen on a very large scale basis. All Red Tape has been cut, ready to go!” he wrote.
....
Everything with him is always "just about to happen," "just down the pike," and it will always be the bestest ever!

Fuck, the man doesn't need any help bringing himself down.
  #156  
Old 03-13-2020, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
That kind of high-minded, high-ground, low-key, "lead by example", "deeds not words" strategy is...well, it's just bad strategy IMO. Low information swing voters are not smart or perspicacious enough to catch on unless you really pound it into their thick skulls.
Low information isn't the same as no information. The complete morons will sleep through this and vote for Trump. But this is big enough to catch the attention of low information voters. A bad President can screw up something like the economy or the environment and people might not see it. But screw up a natural disaster or a war and it makes headlines.
  #157  
Old 03-13-2020, 02:33 PM
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I believe you have to do as Biden did in his address, specifically pointing out things like Trump having eliminated the pandemic response team in the NSC.

Or like what Pelosi did repeatedly today. In a statement that was only about three minutes long, she said over and over that
"Democrats are doing X", "Democrats are doing Y", "Democrats are doing Z". Not just "We in the House are taking the following steps". It's partisan, but I approve.
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  #158  
Old 03-13-2020, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by guizot View Post
You know, when this is over, Trump & Co. will be spinning the narrative that he single-handedly saved the day. Nothing the Democrats do will be noticed over the noise of Trump's propaganda machine.
Actually, the propaganda has already started: This Trump agency downplayed corona virus. Two days later, it praised his 'decisive' response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A. Times:
Interior Secretary David Bernhardt Friday tweeted a video of President Trump’s declaration of a national emergency and lauded his boss for taking “decisive — even unprecedented — actions to protect the American people” from the coronavirus.

But just two days earlier, Bernhardt’s office had sent talking points to Interior officials that downplayed the virus threat.

“While the situation could change rapidly, the threat to the American public today remains low ... Americans don’t need to change their day-to-day lives but should stay informed and practice good hygiene,” stated the two-page memo, which was obtained by The Times.

One of the points emphasized that “in South Korea, no one under the age of 30 has died from Coronavirus.”


After outlining steps the Trump administration had taken to deal with the coronavirus, the March 11 memo closed with paragraphs highlighting the strength of the nation’s economy and advice on holding “large scale events (rallies).”

“If there is an event tomorrow in a place where there is no community spread, I think the judgment to have it might be a good judgment. This is a decision that should be made by local leaders in these communities.”

The talking points were not signed, and the Interior Department did not respond to requests for comment Friday.

The memo was dispatched even as leading health authorities were criticizing the Trump administration’s mixed messages on the coronavirus threat and its halting response, which has lagged behind efforts by state and local governments.
This jackass president is NOTHING but spin. Nothing but bullshit optics and cheap, empty theatrics, put on by an incompetent self-promoter, solely to cling onto his dumbass supporters.
  #159  
Old 03-14-2020, 02:10 AM
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The strange thing is that, as one of the panelists on the National Review Editors podcast lamented this week, for someone who might be "the greatest showman in political history", Trump is astoundingly bad at "playing the game" that Florida governors know so well, of standing up behind a podium with a group of experts and administrators and at least pretending to be commanding and reassuring.
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  #160  
Old 03-14-2020, 01:16 PM
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And note the arrival of Trump and experts: about twenty of them file out together in close proximity when maybe three of them were actually going to participate.
  #161  
Old 03-14-2020, 02:41 PM
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A coronavirus pandemic provides a HUGE opportunity for Democrats


Maybe not.

Focus group: Minnesota swing voters view coronavirus as a financial issue
Quote:
While coronavirus infections and deaths are rising in the U.S., some swing voters in Edina, Minn., said they're viewing this primarily as a financial threat — but they won't blame President Trump if it triggers a recession.

Why it matters
: The responses show the complexity of how certain voters view the coronavirus, and they undermine the conventional wisdom that the president would be punished if a recession begins before the November election.
  • This was the biggest takeaway from our Engagious/FPG focus group held Monday.
  • The group included 10 voters who flipped from Barack Obama in 2012 to Trump in 2016 and one who switched from Mitt Romney in 2012 to Hillary Clinton in 2016.
  • While a focus group is not a statistically significant sample like a poll, these responses show how some voters are thinking and talking about the 2020 election in crucial counties.
What they're saying: These participants said they were not concerned about catching coronavirus, much less dying from it. But they were concerned about their financial investments taking a hit as a result of investor and consumer panic and disease containment practices, and they were uneasy about recent stock market hits.
  • "All of a sudden, now, the bottom is just dropping out. They even stopper trading today it was that bad. So, to me, that's alarming," said Roger L., who also said he cancelled an upcoming cruise because of the virus.
  • On Thursday morning, stocks fell more than 8% after reopening from a 15-minute trading halt for the second time this week. (The market then rebounded on Friday.)
In previous focus groups with Obama/Trump voters, we've heard that they'd be less likely to vote for Trump in November if the economy tanks. That wasn't the case in this conversation, with participants indicating no president could be expected to control something with such sweeping, global reach.
  • "I think he has a limited impact on the economy as a whole, especially in the world economy," said Crystal T. "So I think coronavirus is a temporary thing. It's not going to affect anything long term, and it wouldn't affect my decision of voting for him or not."
  • Michael L. said Trump "would have a better idea of how to get us out of [a recession] than the other candidates."
  • Lisa L. echoed that sentiment, saying she'd trust Trump over the others. "At this point I think I'll put my trust in him that he will get us out of it," and if there was a recession because of coronavirus she would still vote for him in November.
  • Others said they simply didn't draw a correlation or negative association between Trump and coronavirus.
    ....
Formatting in original

In this small sample's eyes, trump is responsible for the economy when it's good, but not so much when it tanks. Mr. Teflon.
  #162  
Old 03-14-2020, 04:07 PM
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This is why I say Democrats cannot be blamed for running a bad campaign if Trump wins (and that includes Hillary in 2016). If people are determined to be dipshits or worse, that’s on them and it just sucks for the rest of us.
  #163  
Old 03-14-2020, 07:31 PM
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The group included 10 voters...
While a focus group is not a statistically significant sample like a poll...

How big was the sample size? How heterogenous? Seems strange that they wouldn't give the size of the group; it sounds too small to be significant.

Every focus group I've worked with has had to be large. We have to get a robust sample size and demographics for it to be taken seriously.
  #164  
Old 03-14-2020, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digs View Post
The group included 10 voters...
While a focus group is not a statistically significant sample like a poll...

How big was the sample size? How heterogenous? Seems strange that they wouldn't give the size of the group; it sounds too small to be significant.

Every focus group I've worked with has had to be large. We have to get a robust sample size and demographics for it to be taken seriously.
From the article:
Quote:
While a focus group is not a statistically significant sample like a poll, these responses show how some voters are thinking and talking about the 2020 election in crucial counties.
This is ALL it claims. No more. It IS too small to be significant except as a reflection of how SOME VOTERS ARE THINKING. As is says in the article.
  #165  
Old 03-14-2020, 09:00 PM
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Looking forward to President Biden working to make medical debt nondischargeable!
  #166  
Old 03-14-2020, 09:16 PM
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Looking forward to President Biden working to make medical debt nondischargeable!
Is that his plan? Honestly, I hadn't heard that. If it is, it would make it real hard to vote for him.
  #167  
Old 03-14-2020, 09:18 PM
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Is that his plan? Honestly, I hadn't heard that. If it is, it would make it real hard to vote for him.
I'm not being serious. I just have no faith in the Democratic Party.
  #168  
Old 03-14-2020, 09:56 PM
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I'm not being serious. I just have no faith in the Democratic Party.
Obviously. And no one would mistake you for a Democrat.
  #169  
Old 03-15-2020, 05:41 AM
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Right now, I'm spitting mad at both parties. The GOP for being evil, and the Dems for not getting the word out.

The bill the House just passed with White House approval was likely the best the Dems could do if they wanted to get something passed right away, and let's face it, time is of the essence here.

But it contains two HUGE exceptions to the paid sick leave requirement: employers with 50 or fewer employees can file for a hardship exemption (there's at least an argument for this), and employers with 500 or more employees.

When Pelosi announced this deal, she should have been angry AF about this, rather than pretending it didn't exist.

There should have been nobody even arguing for an exemption for big businesses. Nobody. GOP motherfucking delenda est.

Every Dem on the Sunday political shows this morning should be talking about this, talking about how incredibly EVIL the Republicans are that there's even a question about this.

God damn, Dems, stop treating Republicans like decent people who happen to disagree with you! The things they disagree with you over are quite often matters of good and evil - and when that's the case, you should be making no bones about it.
  #170  
Old 03-16-2020, 02:03 AM
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My impression is that the exemption for the biggest corporations was not forced on Democrats, but something Pelosi defends because corporations that big can afford to do it themselves without depending on the government to fund it. Which I think has merit.
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  #171  
Old 03-16-2020, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
The strange thing is that, as one of the panelists on the National Review Editors podcast lamented this week, for someone who might be "the greatest showman in political history", Trump is astoundingly bad at "playing the game" that Florida governors know so well, of standing up behind a podium with a group of experts and administrators and at least pretending to be commanding and reassuring.
Trump is a "showman" in the cheapest sense of the word. He's a two-bit carnival gasbag, flimflamming whatever fool walks by. (Just listen to him talk.) He has a reptilian sense of the self-entitled grievance that fools often have, and he appeals to that in the way a lizard automatically sticks out its tongue to catch flies.

It's not that Trump is such a great showman so much as there's a fool born every minute.
  #172  
Old 03-16-2020, 10:22 AM
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Trump is a "showman" in the cheapest sense of the word. He's a two-bit carnival gasbag, flimflamming whatever fool walks by. (Just listen to him talk.) He has a reptilian sense of the self-entitled grievance that fools often have, and he appeals to that in the way a lizard automatically sticks out its tongue to catch flies.

It's not that Trump is such a great showman so much as there's a fool born every minute.
All politicians are showmen, sleight of hand tricks, telling "lies", letting people believe untruths. All to stay in power.

All of them. Turn the lights on them all and they all run for the nearest cover, like cockroaches.

Find a honest politician and I will find you one that doesn't hold office very long. There is a structural failure in politics.

My personal opinion is the massive amount of money flowing through and to them.

GET RID OF THE MONEY
  #173  
Old 03-17-2020, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
All politicians are showmen, sleight of hand tricks, telling "lies", letting people believe untruths. All to stay in power.



All of them. Turn the lights on them all and they all run for the nearest cover, like cockroaches.



Find a honest politician and I will find you one that doesn't hold office very long. There is a structural failure in politics.



My personal opinion is the massive amount of money flowing through and to them.



GET RID OF THE MONEY
Not all to the same degree. And some at least improve how the government runs. We're seeing what happens when one who doesn't even try gets into office--the most abject case we've had so far. We're seeing the difference right now.

Someone has to run the government while you work on your plan to get the money out. (When are you going to finish that?)
  #174  
Old 03-17-2020, 09:27 PM
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Hear, hear.

Now Trump is claiming he knew it was a pandemic before anyone else did. We CANNOT let him stuff reality down Big Brother's memory hole!
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