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  #51  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:28 PM
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Also Bloomberg is an awful candidate. ...
Getting on the stage gave voters a chance to evaluate him.

Less poor today but his good to the world will be supporting the efforts of someone else as standard bearer and helping Congressional races.
  #52  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:29 PM
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Also Bloomberg is an awful candidate. Has zero chance. It looks like someone told him to show some humor; at least I think that was what he attempted.
He's more aggressive tonight, which is working for him; on the flip side, he looks like a dick.
  #53  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:30 PM
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A "Fuss"? An International Fuss?

Fuck. I just pissed my pants laughing!
  #54  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:31 PM
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Biden saved millions of lives by keeping Ebola from reaching US.
Biden is being weirdly...grrr!

I wonder what his strategists told him in how to present himself tonight?
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  #55  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:32 PM
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I also dream of having the audio guy cut their mics when they go over time.
Or go off topic. The question was "Would you allow Chinese firms to build U.S. infrastructure?" but they let Warren go on about Bloomberg not releasing his tax returns..
  #56  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:34 PM
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Senator Librarian is laser-focused on Bloomberg, and I think she's doing a fantastic job of keeping him reeling.
  #57  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:36 PM
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I'll assume Biden is mistaken, because the alternative is that he's simply lying.

Great to hear Mayor Pete tell people to start living in the 21st century.

ETA: Oh fuck it's a mess again.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-25-2020 at 08:38 PM.
  #58  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:37 PM
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God, Amy, just shut the fuck up.
  #59  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:37 PM
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Every debate I watch, I feel like the candidates need to be enclosed in soundproof booths and have their microphones activated from the outside, with a timer showing how long they have to talk, and then it shuts off when they run out of time. Because none of them seem willing to say something concise and shut up. It's also hard to tell how much time each of them is supposed to have.
Shock collars.
  #60  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:37 PM
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Or go off topic. The question was "Would you allow Chinese firms to build U.S. infrastructure?" but they let Warren go on about Bloomberg not releasing his tax returns..
I agree with this.

So many debates have the candidates ramble off on whatever they want to talk about and not answer the question given.

Cut the mic and move on.

EDIT to add: Additionally, mute the mics of candidates who are not answering the question given to them. Although, it does make things more lively and better TV.
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  #61  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:38 PM
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Senator Librarian is laser-focused on Bloomberg, and I think she's doing a fantastic job of keeping him reeling.
A little less effective, and she's telegraphing her punches tonight.
  #62  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:42 PM
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I admire Sanders for his response on Israel: the right balance, IMO
  #63  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:42 PM
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Senator Librarian is laser-focused on Bloomberg, and I think she's doing a fantastic job of keeping him reeling.

Such an easy target though that it's almost embarrassing.

I don't know why she's afraid to go after Bernie, but she's done if she doesn't.
  #64  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:46 PM
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I don't know why she's afraid to go after Bernie, but she's done if she doesn't.
She did in the past and it backfired on her.

My guess is people who like Warren and Sanders see them kinda on the same page so her attacking Sanders does not play well (Note: Sanders has not gone after Warren much either and generally steered away from that fight).

Just a guess on my part.
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  #65  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:50 PM
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Who is coughing?
  #66  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:55 PM
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Best guess: She's hedging her bets. She knows she is a longshot right now, but she's going to hang in there until after South Carolina and maybe Super Tuesday, and if by then she hasn't gained traction she'll cut a deal with Bernie and throw her supporters his way in exchange for a VP position perhaps a cabinet position.

Also, she can't attack Bernie on his leftism without alienating her own supporters. She can't attack him for his age, because she's over 70 herself. She COULD attack him from a female perspective by going after his crazy statements about women (women who don't have orgasms can cause cancer, mothers who tell their female children to avoid casual sex are guilty of causing mental trauma in young women, girls should spread their legs for their boyfriends to help the revolution, etc). But doing that would end any chance she has for a position in his gov't should he win.
  #67  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:55 PM
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Summary: I don't think anyone did anything to stand out and nobody did anything stupid. Everyone looked fake and tried and failed to be stronger. Winner: Donald Trump
  #68  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:57 PM
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Buttigieg is a sharp guy. I really wish he had not sold himself to moneyed interests.

Honestly, him choosing to do that was probably in his best interests and a smart career move if he wants to have a profitable political career.

Shame though, he could have (maybe) aimed as the next JFK.
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  #69  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:06 PM
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I'd say this debate was

Sanders

Biden


Warren
Buttigieg




Klobuchar
Steyer
Bloomberg
  #70  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:08 PM
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Summary: I don't think anyone did anything to stand out and nobody did anything stupid. Everyone looked fake and tried and failed to be stronger. Winner: Donald Trump
I'm shocked you'd say that, given how much I thought you were already in the bag for Sanders. You earn my vote for Shocker of the Evening.
  #71  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:15 PM
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And the winner of tonight's debate was......

....drumroll, please.....

DONALD TRUMP!
  #72  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:20 PM
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She did in the past and it backfired on her.

My guess is people who like Warren and Sanders see them kinda on the same page so her attacking Sanders does not play well (Note: Sanders has not gone after Warren much either and generally steered away from that fight).

Just a guess on my part.
Iím suspecting Sanders/Warren ticket.
  #73  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:23 PM
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Buttigieg is a sharp guy. I really wish he had not sold himself to moneyed interests.

Honestly, him choosing to do that was probably in his best interests and a smart career move if he wants to have a profitable political career.

Shame though, he could have (maybe) aimed as the next JFK.
Not in Indiana.
  #74  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:25 PM
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Bernie keeps repeating that Castro had a good literacy and/or education program. Why? Just say that you've already answered the question and repeat that Castro was an evil man who will stay in the ash heap of history. Why does he insist on doubling down on how great he was in literacy?
  #75  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:29 PM
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God, Amy, just shut the fuck up.
Amy had a terrible night. As far as I'm concerned, it's manifestly obvious that when the heat gets turned up, she can't stand up to it. She's really good at talking about how we all need to come together to beat Donald Trump and how her grandparents worked in a mine. When anything more substantial comes up, she just sounds flustered and exasperated. Her desperate pleading to be allowed to finish when she goes over the time is just the nail in the coffin. She really needs to pack it in.
  #76  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:31 PM
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Biden saved millions of lives by keeping Ebola from reaching US.
And he would also have saved the lives of all of the victims of gun violence in the past 25 years, were it not for Bernie Sanders who single-handedly went around the country with a Soviet AK-47 and personally murdering all of them.
  #77  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:37 PM
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And he would also have saved the lives of all of the victims of gun violence in the past 25 years, were it not for Bernie Sanders who single-handedly went around the country with a Soviet AK-47 and personally murdering all of them.
That was odd as well. Bernie voted against the Brady Bill which caused Dylan Roof to be able to kill 9 people in Charleston, SC?

Well, the Brady Bill passed anyways. So Bernie's vote against it did not cause anything.

Nor did it cause the 150 million gun deaths since 2007. Anyone figure out WTF Biden was talking about with that?
  #78  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:41 PM
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It's not good for Sanders to be saying nice things about Cuba/Castro. It's a really bad idea especially given that Florida might be a winnable state. That reminds me of when the owner of the Reds said "Hitler was good in the beginning" and she got suspended for a year. Later she said some more racist stuff and was pretty much forced to sell the Reds.
  #79  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:44 PM
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I scored it:
1) Mayor Pete
2) Amy
3) Biden
4) Warren
5) Steyer
6) Bloomberg
7) Bernie

I thought Pete and Amy came across as relatively calm and rational on a stage filled with angry yelling crazy people. Biden came across as a real dick in my view. Warren apparently wanted Bloomberg's balls to have bronzed as a trophy. I think she got em. Steyer seems way too Dr. Strangelovey. And then Bernie. Loud ranty Bernie. No. No way.
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  #80  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:55 PM
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It's not good for Sanders to be saying nice things about Cuba/Castro. It's a really bad idea especially given that Florida might be a winnable state.
Assuming Bernie wins, he will lose Florida - you can already write off that state. You can also write off Iowa, North Carolina, and Ohio. Bernie might - might - win Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. But he's guaranteed to lose IA, NC, OH, and FL. That leaves very little room to fuck up.
  #81  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:56 PM
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Bernie keeps repeating that Castro had a good literacy and/or education program. Why? Just say that you've already answered the question and repeat that Castro was an evil man who will stay in the ash heap of history. Why does he insist on doubling down on how great he was in literacy?
Because he's right? He said authoritarianism is bad, but socialism can be good. That's it, and nearest I can tell he's been incredibly consistent on that. Castro bad, literacy good. That's, like, not even a nuanced position, but apparently even that pathetically obvious statement is too nuanced for American politics. Huzzah! I know, I know, it's probably bad politics for Bernie to go around stating the obvious when it makes himself open for an attack that will sway low information voters, but Bernie is nothing if not consistent.
  #82  
Old 02-25-2020, 10:36 PM
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Bernie was challenged about Cuba in a post-debate interview on CBS. The interviewer specifically said "Let's set aside the substance of the question and talk about the politics. Do you understand why this is a difficult stance to take, politically speaking?" (paraphrasing). Bernie's response (not paraphrasing): "Truth is truth." No, Bernie, in politics truth is NOT truth. (Of course, to his young idealistic faithful, this observation is appalling, "everything that's wrong with politics" )

"The Holocaust was wrong, obviously; but those autobahns were great, and he really amped up national pride!"

Andy has repeatedly said something to the effect of "okay, Bernie said some dumb things about dictators in the 1980s, old news". Why would it make sense for him politically to make it NEW news? Why not just say "I won't defend every comment I made in the Eighties, but let me be clear how I feel after three decades in the House and Senate: I denounce the totalitarian Castro regime and any country where people are not allowed to exercise their God-given liberty"? It would be disingenuous, sure--but it would be GOOD POLITICS, and how would it hurt progressive causes in any way?

Kellyanne Conway drives all of us nuts with her evasive spin; but doing that kind of thing in politics is a crucial skill. There's a reason "Bulworth" is only a movie: that kind of thing doesn't work! (And no, Trump is not a counterexample: he lied about all kinds of stuff in 2016 to get elected.)


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Klobuchar is done I think.

Interesting to have that reaction with the debate. My feeling is that she was done before the debate, due to her poor performance in Nevada. But I thought this was a strong debate for her, if it mattered (which it doesn't).


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Or go off topic. The question was "Would you allow Chinese firms to build U.S. infrastructure?" but they let Warren go on about Bloomberg not releasing his tax returns..

It's ironic that she gasses on about eliminating the filibuster--she was filibustering like hell for a while there!


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A little less effective, and she's telegraphing her punches tonight.

She's trying to recapture the magic from her Las Vegas attacks, and it's really cringey. You can't attack him about the same stuff when he has now released the women from their DNDs!
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  #83  
Old 02-25-2020, 10:37 PM
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Nor did it cause the 150 million gun deaths since 2007. Anyone figure out WTF Biden was talking about with that?
Yeah, that would have required several million Columbines, Sandy Hooks, Virginia Techs, Orlando Pulses. Somebody grill Biden hard after this to ask what and why.
  #84  
Old 02-25-2020, 10:47 PM
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I wonder if it will come out that Bloomberg bought up tickets for supporters. Right now it's just speculation but the audience reacted very strangely tonight.

https://www.vox.com/2020/2/25/211537...debate-tickets
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  #85  
Old 02-25-2020, 11:04 PM
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Bernie was challenged about Cuba in a post-debate interview on CBS. The interviewer specifically said "Let's set aside the substance of the question and talk about the politics. Do you understand why this is a difficult stance to take, politically speaking?" (paraphrasing). Bernie's response (not paraphrasing): "Truth is truth." No, Bernie, in politics truth is NOT truth. (Of course, to his young idealistic faithful, this observation is appalling, "everything that's wrong with politics" )

"The Holocaust was wrong, obviously; but those autobahns were great, and he really amped up national pride!"
It is not about whether bad people did some good (or vice versa). Frankly, no one in history is without sin. Ghandi had some baggage. So did Mother Theresa (actually she had loads).

The attack is to cast socialism in a bad light. Sanders is trying to note that there are some good aspects to it while repudiating the authoritarian assholes using it.

What about Sander's agenda tells you that he will try to be a Castro? Or is it that you are trying to use a villain who had a few ideas in common with Sanders to paint Sanders as a villain also?
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  #86  
Old 02-25-2020, 11:06 PM
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I wonder if it will come out that Bloomberg bought up tickets for supporters. Right now it's just speculation but the audience reacted very strangely tonight.

https://www.vox.com/2020/2/25/211537...debate-tickets
I was soooo lopsided. It was not even close. Plus, the crazy applause approving of something Bloomberg said was decidedly more like a laugh track than a genuine response. (E.G. Bloomberg would make some minor point and the audience would go nuts.)
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  #87  
Old 02-25-2020, 11:16 PM
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What about Sander's agenda tells you that he will try to be a Castro? Or is it that you are trying to use a villain who had a few ideas in common with Sanders to paint Sanders as a villain also?

It's neither. I don't know if Bernie would like to be like Castro if he could (I'm not convinced he wouldn't, given how happy he was with him when he came back from Cuba, same deal in Nicaragua), but Congress wouldn't let him so the point is moot. Nor am I concerned with "painting him as a villain also". I feel like my point is really clear, but I'll try to spell it out more carefully:

Bernie Sanders is really bad at general election presidential politics. There's no upside to sticking up for Castro. None. Nor is there upside to calling himself a "democratic socialist". He could advocate his entire absurd Christmas tree of progressive programs without doing either of those things. Doing those things does not help him win, it doesn't help him achieve anything. And it's incredibly reckless right when he's on the verge of consolidating support and becoming unstoppable for the nomination. He may not be able to be stopped anyway, but why would he risk it? It shows that he won't "play the game" at all in the fall, but will just try to be Bulworth. And if that works, we've never seen evidence for it in history.
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  #88  
Old 02-25-2020, 11:19 PM
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I'm sure we're all giving your well-informed () (<- to indicate sarcasm) opinion all the consideration it is due.
  #89  
Old 02-25-2020, 11:21 PM
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IBernie Sanders is really bad at general election presidential politics. There's no upside to sticking up for Castro. None.
Sanders is nothing if not consistent.

Unlike most politicians who swing to a new position as the wind blows Sanders has been consistent his whole career.

You want Sanders to give up a position he once held. Sanders is standing behind his position because it was a considered position.

Put another way, Sanders doing as you suggest is literally not the Sanders' brand which is standing behind what he has said even if you think it is not politically expedient.
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  #90  
Old 02-25-2020, 11:26 PM
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It's not good for Sanders to be saying nice things about Cuba/Castro. It's a really bad idea especially given that Florida might be a winnable state.
I donít get why we have to have a National Conversation about how bad Cuba is every six months when thatís where we keep our extralegal torture facility.
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Old 02-25-2020, 11:34 PM
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I actually know some super hardcore Bernie backers who grudgingly admit these Cuba comments are not helpful. Their explanation? "He's just the kind of person who can't be at all disingenuous, can't even shade the truth through omission". Okay, maybe that's true. That could be a good character trait in a friend or family member. It's a spectacularly terrible characteristic of a presidential candidate, unless that candidate just happens to sincerely hold nothing but middle-of-the-road views (which obviously isn't the case here).
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  #92  
Old 02-26-2020, 02:12 AM
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Just thought I'd throw this out there. I missed the debate, but here's CNN's take. Is this accurate?

WINNERS:

Buttigieg: "At his absolute best." Did well at contrasting his health care plan with Sanders'.
Quote:
If voters were looking for a Sanders alternative who looked like he could be commander in chief in this debate, Buttigieg made a very good case for himself.

Biden:
Quote:
Turned his outrage meter WAY up for this debate.
" Hammered Steyers. Said Sanders was a dangerous risk whose election would affect down-ballot candidates. Stumbled a lot and claimed he wrote every bill the other candidates discussed, but more good than bad.

Klobuchar:
Quote:
As she has done in nearly every debate, the Minnesota senator did more with fewer opportunities than almost any other candidate on stage.
Made many solid policy proposals. Not as solid as she was in the debate before New Hampshire, but a bright spot on a chaotic stage.

Sanders:
Quote:
The Vermont senator got hit with a few hard punches to which he had no response. His voting record on guns. How he would pay for his policy proposals. And booing from the crowd -- more on this below -- clearly threw him off his game.
But, ___ said, no one knocked him out, and given his surge in popularity, that's a win.

Trump: Chaos and anger at the debate makes him look better.

LOSERS:

Bloomberg: Better in this debate, but that's not saying much. Jokes fell flat, and he still hasn't explained his misogynist jokes and comments about women.

Warren: She was OK, but that's not good enough for a candidate who has yet to finish in the top two in any primaries. Best when she attacked Bloomberg re: women, but often faded from view.

Moderators: Refused to get involved when shouting erupted, yet interrupted when it was unnecessary.

Live Audience: Unrestrained clapping and booing may have influenced how the TV audience assessed the candidates' performances. Get rid of live audiences.
  #93  
Old 02-26-2020, 02:30 AM
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I dug the audience!
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  #94  
Old 02-26-2020, 02:33 AM
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IMO, every moment spent on the Castro stuff is a de facto win for Bernie at this stage. It's not ideal for the general election due to quirks of where hawkish Cuban migrants are located, but nobody is making that case directly, they're just wailing and gnashing their teeth about how horrible Castro was. But most Americans, and especially most Democrats, don't support hawkish jingoism on Cuba; Castro was last in the minds of the public twenty years ago during the EliŠn GonzŠlez fracas, and even then the majority of the public (and a huge majority of Democrats) opposed the right's attempt to kidnap the kid.
  #95  
Old 02-26-2020, 04:25 AM
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150 million people have been killed by guns since 2007????
I assume he meant 150 thousand victims of homicide since 2007 ó the actual number is in that ballpark.
I write or say "million" when I mean "billion" quite often ó it's just a lapse, not innumeracy. My posts would look crazed if I only had 45 seconds to compose a long one.

Everybody on the stage has a very high IQ. It gets tiresome to hear minor slips or lapses treated as more serious than what they are. A President listens carefully and speaks as slowly as he needs to. Producing snappy soundbites on demand shouldn't be a top criterion.
  #96  
Old 02-26-2020, 04:33 AM
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Assuming Bernie wins, he will lose Florida - you can already write off that state. You can also write off Iowa, North Carolina, and Ohio. Bernie might - might - win Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. But he's guaranteed to lose IA, NC, OH, and FL. That leaves very little room to fuck up.
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  #97  
Old 02-26-2020, 07:31 AM
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This debate was notable for how uninteresting it was. Dullest. Debate. Evah.

But if anything can be taken away from it it's this:

Bernie will never change; He'll forever be the angry uncle who's not wrong but hard to stomach for extended periods.

Biden has changed and not for the better; he's gotten much angrier and less coherent. I worry about his health. Please quit and go lie down, Joe. You've done enough.

Pete is always sharp; He is consistent and smart but far too rational for an election that will be decided entirely on emotion.

Amy....<yawn>; take your receipts and go home. We'll call you when we need to fill the position of Sec. HUD or Commerce.

Liz is an also ran when standing next to Bernie; She'll be an excellent VP if Bernie wins. Or Sec of Treasury, or Labor, or Education, or Czar of Fuck The Corporations and Billionaires.

Thanks for coming out Mike and Tom; You don't look like you need, want or deserve this job.
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  #98  
Old 02-26-2020, 07:49 AM
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Bernie was challenged about Cuba in a post-debate interview on CBS. The interviewer specifically said "Let's set aside the substance of the question and talk about the politics. Do you understand why this is a difficult stance to take, politically speaking?" (paraphrasing). Bernie's response (not paraphrasing): "Truth is truth." No, Bernie, in politics truth is NOT truth. (Of course, to his young idealistic faithful, this observation is appalling, "everything that's wrong with politics" )
It has nothing to do with being young or idealistic. I'm almost 40 and I doubt there is anyone in this thread much more cynical about the political future of this country than me. But yes. Your observation is appalling.

If Pete Buttigieg said, as pure platitude, with no substance and out of context, "Truth is truth," there would be Democrats with tears in their eyes talking about how presidential that young man is. My DC lanyard-class friends would want that shit tattooed on their hearts. And it is the kind of thing Buttigieg has probably focus-grouped, and has a whiteboard full of somewhere: little aphorisms to pepper in and make commercials out of, as long as they don't in any way inform the very artificial way you present information. You want to take the presidency from Donald Trump, and you're saying "Truth is truth." Beautiful. Campaign slogan, even.

The guy who is actually leading the race says it, in the context of explaining why he's not being a hypocrite and explaining the not actually wrong thing he's being attacked for, and this is your response because he's further to the left than you and thus must be insane. Not that his point was inaccurate, or shameful, or bad, or that he should apologize for it. Just that it's politically difficult, and those things have to be dealt with in as manufactured and cosmetic a way as possible at all times.

Not being hypocritical about things when you have no good reason to be hypocritical about them: bad politics. The Democrats, 2020, ladies and gentlemen.
  #99  
Old 02-26-2020, 07:52 AM
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And the winner of tonight's debate was......

....drumroll, please.....

DONALD TRUMP!
To be fair, it's easier for him to win a debate where he's not talking.
  #100  
Old 02-26-2020, 07:53 AM
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Nor did it cause the 150 million gun deaths since 2007. Anyone figure out WTF Biden was talking about with that?
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Yeah, that would have required several million Columbines, Sandy Hooks, Virginia Techs, Orlando Pulses. Somebody grill Biden hard after this to ask what and why.
Obviously, the Bowling Green Massacre was even more horrific than previously (un)known.
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