Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-03-2020, 07:57 AM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,174

Stopping Trump. Would 8 years of a “moderate” Republican be worth it?


I’ve been pondering the possible long term outcomes of Sanders winning the nomination and have come up with a hypothetical. The question is do you think a Sanders victory under this scenario is worth it.

Let’s say you have a crystal ball that shows you two outcomes for this fall. In one scenario Biden wins the nomination and loses to Trump in the general election. 2022 is a blue wave including a Democratic senate. 2024, while not a guaranteed victory, looks like a good year for Democrats as well. The downside, of course, is four more years of Trump.

The alternative scenario is Sanders winning the nomination. In this scenario Sanders beats Trump in the fall. 2022 is a red wave, just like 1994 and 2010. The senate stays red despite the map being favorable to Democrats. In 2024 a Republican along the lines of Mitt Romney or John Kasich wins the election. 2026 is a small blue victory. 2028 brings the re-election of Romney / Kasich / whoever. 2030 is a blue wave. It’s not until 2032 that we’re looking at the opportunity for another Democratic president. On the other hand there would be no more Trump.

Obviously these are not the only two options, but if they were, which would you go for?
  #2  
Old 03-03-2020, 08:38 AM
Sterling Archer is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,276
There is a huge assumption here that oppositional propaganda will always be effective. Sometimes I try to imagine what it would have been like if Hillary would have won, the messaging from the right wing would be some crazy shit right now. Would congress still be red, no blue wave in 2018?

At some point people have to wake up and realize they are being lied to. I am hoping we have passed that point with enough people, but the fact that the red base stays at a rock solid 42% in favor of Trump is worrying.

To stop fighting the hypothetical for a second, I think 4 years of Sanders and then a pull back to moderate Republican policy wouldn’t be so bad. You gotta remember their propaganda machine is gonna fight just as hard against a moderate Dem like Biden or Hillary as against Sanders. They don’t have a medium setting. So you can’t assume anything farther down the road would be impacted by the degree of the leftward shift in the Democratic Party. A more unifying voice might have better hope for long term change, but the propaganda will still be equally fierce, so hope for actual unity is faint.
  #3  
Old 03-03-2020, 09:24 AM
Grim Render is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,412
Personally, get Trump out. Sort out the rest of it later, its not an existential issue.

Trump charging around the world order with no comprehension of anything beyond what the news anchor of the day said, has a much, much greater damage potential than a decade of "normal" republicans. The latter is mostly going to do damage internal to the US.
  #4  
Old 03-03-2020, 09:29 AM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 17,549
Get Trump out, take the 8 years of a moderate Republican. What we need right now is a return to normalcy. (Although Bernie is the Democrat who is the least likely to deliver "normalcy" if elected.)

Either Bernie won't be able to get anything done, in which case no rocking of the boat, or maybe we get single-payer healthcare, which is a win-win. What's not to like about this scenario.
  #5  
Old 03-03-2020, 09:32 AM
Wesley Clark's Avatar
Wesley Clark is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 23,869
Four more years of trump, especially if the last 2 years have a blue senate, aren't going to be bad.

I'm more worried about Trump stacking the appellate and supreme court at this point, and a democratic senate could (in theory) block that. However IRL who knows if the dems would capitulate and just appoint Trumps nominees.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #6  
Old 03-03-2020, 09:37 AM
Ashtura is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 2,978
I do not see ANY (currently) non-Trumper Republicans taking on the role of the "moderate" Republican. Not successfully anyway. Can you name one? They've all been marginalized completely. Romney committed political suicide with his impeachment vote. Kasich? Yeah right.
  #7  
Old 03-03-2020, 09:44 AM
bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 19,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Get Trump out, take the 8 years of a moderate Republican. What we need right now is a return to normalcy.
That's my thought too- a moderate Democrat or Republican is fine- they may be wrong, but they're wrong within normal parameters, to paraphrase PJ O'Rourke.

Trump is definitely well outside normal parameters of wrong, and in a lot of ways, so is Bernie.

I mean, someone in the Mitt Romney or John Kasich mold on the Republican side, or the Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden or Pete Buttigieg on the Democrat side isn't going to be exciting or really galvanize either side into any sort of frenzied action, but that's the point. I'm of the opinion that at this point, we really need a President who'll set a good, Presidential example- dignified, statesman(or woman)-like, etc... and who will confine themselves to Presidential matters and not tweet about everything in a political fashion.

I also suspect we'll probably keep the same Senate/House party split, which will mean that getting any meaningful legislation will be difficult, so having a moderate President focused on restoring the dignity and gravitas of the office would be just fine.
  #8  
Old 03-03-2020, 09:51 AM
Wesley Clark's Avatar
Wesley Clark is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 23,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashtura View Post
I do not see ANY (currently) non-Trumper Republicans taking on the role of the "moderate" Republican. Not successfully anyway. Can you name one? They've all been marginalized completely. Romney committed political suicide with his impeachment vote. Kasich? Yeah right.
The last 2 republican presidents have destroyed Americas reputation, cut taxes on the rich and appointed a ton of judges on the federal level.

A moderate GOP president would do the same thing. Also even if we have a moderate GOP president, the GOP will still be declaring all out war on democracy anyway. Just because we have president Kasich doesnt change the fact that the GOP is going to be pushing for gerrymandering, abusing the census, voter suppression, etc.

In a way I like having Trump as the face of the GOP. Having a more acceptable face like Kasich lets the GOP be a neofascist white nationalist party that can pretend to be civilized. Trump rips the phony mask off and exposes it for what it is.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #9  
Old 03-03-2020, 09:51 AM
Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 86,349
My priority is getting Trump out of office. He's not normal, even for a Republican.

If Trump dropped dead tomorrow and Pence became President, it would be a significant improvement. Even though I believe Pence would be a terrible President. Because Trump is worse than terrible.
  #10  
Old 03-03-2020, 09:53 AM
Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 86,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
The last 2 republican presidents have destroyed Americas reputation, cut taxes on the rich and appointed a ton of judges on the federal level.
Two? I'd say the last four.
  #11  
Old 03-03-2020, 10:02 AM
RTFirefly is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 41,326
Which alternative holds out any hope of an aggressive response to global warming?

All the rest is rearranging the deck chairs, AFAIAC.
  #12  
Old 03-03-2020, 10:03 AM
Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 86,349
dupe

Last edited by Little Nemo; 03-03-2020 at 10:03 AM.
  #13  
Old 03-03-2020, 10:54 AM
Eonwe's Avatar
Eonwe is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Burlington VT
Posts: 8,745
The ball shows way too little information to be useful.

And, if it's all a simple formula; the party who wins the presidency (and controls the Senate) is determined by the incumbent party and where a given election falls in the presidential election cycle, then it's just a waiting game for both parties.

Any long-term planning for success that depends on keeping the other party out of office indefinitely is doomed to failure. Republicans will win the presidency again. Maybe not this year, or the next cycle, or the next, but eventually.

So, what's the point of "making sure" that there isn't a GOP president in 2024 (or even 2032)? There will be one after that. Why should I be more afraid of GOP presidency in the end of the 2020s than I should be of a GOP presidency after 2032? Why should I choose four more years of Trump now, to bump the next GOP presidency out 4 or 8 years? I don't get the end game.

And, I frankly, I think the crystal ball scenario of consequences is made up and not worth fretting over. Treating arguments like "Warren is unelectable" or "Sanders is guaranteed doom to local/state elections" as unassailable truths is counter-productive, and I don't think really yields any interesting conversations or insight.
  #14  
Old 03-03-2020, 11:01 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is online now
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 88,717
We need both liberals and conservatives for our political system to work properly. Right now, we don't have any conservatives, with the result that the Democrats are having to take on the conservative role, and we're really bad at it. A return of real conservatives instead of Trump would definitely be a benefit.
  #15  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:44 AM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,921
NM

Last edited by Sage Rat; 03-04-2020 at 12:45 AM.
  #16  
Old 03-04-2020, 04:19 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the Land of Smiles
Posts: 21,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
That's my thought too- a moderate Democrat or Republican is fine- they may be wrong, but they're wrong within normal parameters, to paraphrase PJ O'Rourke....

I mean, someone in the Mitt Romney or John Kasich mold on the Republican side, ...
Mentioning Romney and Kasich together like this shows how far down the rabbit-hole we've come. Romney is a genuine patriot and, by GOP standards, definitely a moderate, but he is FAR to the right of someone like Joe Biden(*).

Kasich seems to be a sincere good-spirited man who has moved away from the far-right on many issues, but his background is hard-core right-wing. As Governor he encouraged various obstacles to abortion (e.g. forcing pregnant women to have ultrasounds); defunded public schools; supports teaching intelligent design in public schools; opposes pro-environment measures; opposes labor unions (Ohio is a right-to-work state); supports the kindergarten thinking behind "Balanced Budget amendment"; opposed gay marriage; etc.

So Kasich may be "moderate" by the standards of the Evil cabal that has taken over the GOP, but please don't conflate him with actual moderates.

* - As I wrote this, I realized how much our labels have been forced to change. Fifty years ago, on a scale where 1 is Mao Tse-Tung, 5 "moderate", and 10 Adolf Hitler, America had a general bipartisan consensus and chose from among a 5 ("moderate"), 4 ("left-winger") or 6 ("right-winger"). But nowadays, we sometimes are faced with the choice of a 2 or a 9; and eveyone who would have been lumped in the "sanity zone" 50 years ago including what would then be called left or right, is now called "moderate."
  #17  
Old 03-04-2020, 06:13 AM
Zakalwe's Avatar
Zakalwe is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 5,061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Four more years of trump, especially if the last 2 years have a blue senate, aren't going to be bad.

I'm more worried about Trump stacking the appellate and supreme court at this point, and a democratic senate could (in theory) block that. However IRL who knows if the dems would capitulate and just appoint Trumps nominees.
At the pace that Cocaine Mitch and Cadet Bone Spurs are going, in two more years the number of vacancies across the entire system will be less than 10 and more like, "oh he retired? great, cue up the next one". A 2022 Dem Senate won't have anything left to stop.
  #18  
Old 03-04-2020, 09:34 AM
bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 19,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Mentioning Romney and Kasich together like this shows how far down the rabbit-hole we've come. Romney is a genuine patriot and, by GOP standards, definitely a moderate, but he is FAR to the right of someone like Joe Biden(*).

Kasich seems to be a sincere good-spirited man who has moved away from the far-right on many issues, but his background is hard-core right-wing. As Governor he encouraged various obstacles to abortion (e.g. forcing pregnant women to have ultrasounds); defunded public schools; supports teaching intelligent design in public schools; opposes pro-environment measures; opposes labor unions (Ohio is a right-to-work state); supports the kindergarten thinking behind "Balanced Budget amendment"; opposed gay marriage; etc.

So Kasich may be "moderate" by the standards of the Evil cabal that has taken over the GOP, but please don't conflate him with actual moderates.

* - As I wrote this, I realized how much our labels have been forced to change. Fifty years ago, on a scale where 1 is Mao Tse-Tung, 5 "moderate", and 10 Adolf Hitler, America had a general bipartisan consensus and chose from among a 5 ("moderate"), 4 ("left-winger") or 6 ("right-winger"). But nowadays, we sometimes are faced with the choice of a 2 or a 9; and eveyone who would have been lumped in the "sanity zone" 50 years ago including what would then be called left or right, is now called "moderate."
We have to work with the tools at hand, so to speak. And really your comments apply to the Democratic party as well- today's moderate Democrats are further left than they used to be as well. Both parties have sort of pulled into their own navels policy-wise, and I tend to think that's a big part of today's issues. There isn't a middle anymore. In theory, the moderates of both parties should probably have more in common with each other than with the extreme wings of their own parties, but that hasn't been the case for a while now.

I even remember a quaint diagram from a political science book from college that showed how Republicans from traditionally left-leaning states were often more liberal than Democrats from traditionally right-leaning states. So a Texas Democrat might well have a lot in common with a California Republican under that particular concept. That hasn't been the case for a while now though.

Last edited by bump; 03-04-2020 at 09:34 AM.
  #19  
Old 03-04-2020, 08:11 PM
Zakalwe's Avatar
Zakalwe is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 5,061
Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
today's moderate Democrats are further left than they used to be as well.
Cite?!?!?

Today's "moderate" Democrat would have been a Reagan Republican in 1981.
  #20  
Old 03-05-2020, 07:13 AM
tullsterx is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 974
Trump IS a moderate. Not sure if he can be called a Republican at all. He's more of a populist independent who's moderate.

He's the closest thing we've had to an independent President since, maybe Teddy Roosevelt. The idea that Trump is a radical right-wing conservative is demonstrably untrue.
  #21  
Old 03-05-2020, 07:23 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 37,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by tullsterx View Post
The idea that Trump is a radical right-wing conservative is demonstrably untrue.
Maybe not on every issue, but his praise of white supremacists, his own racist statements, and his administration's racist policies qualify as "radical right wing".
  #22  
Old 03-05-2020, 09:04 AM
bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 19,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakalwe View Post
Cite?!?!?

Today's "moderate" Democrat would have been a Reagan Republican in 1981.
I don't know about that. Seems to me that in a lot of ways, they're shifting left in response to public opinion. Stuff like UHC, gay rights, etc... are all accepted parts of all of their platforms, and that stuff was not in the cards 20 years ago.

Look at Biden- even his positions have shifted left over the years.
  #23  
Old 03-05-2020, 09:10 AM
orcenio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NCR
Posts: 2,466
Dude, get Trump out (not that I think Joe can do it though).
  #24  
Old 03-05-2020, 09:17 AM
RTFirefly is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 41,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Four more years of trump, especially if the last 2 years have a blue senate, aren't going to be bad.
I used to think that. But the past year or so has disabused me of that notion.

Trump's been able to remove the guardrails to a remarkable extent. Now that he can have acting Cabinet members who've not been confirmed by the Senate for a Cabinet-level post, but apparently now all they need is to have been confirmed for some minor post earlier on, he's been able to surround himself with toadies who don't bring any loyalty to their department or even to their own knowledge and understanding to the job. Hell, even Jeff Sessions had a few scruples - not many, but enough to give us the Mueller investigation. And the Supreme Court all too unsurprisingly seems to be willing to give Trump just about as much freedom to act as he wants, and ditto for freedom from oversight.

Really, there's no telling what he'll be able to do with another nearly 5 years as President. I *think* we'd still have a 2024 election, but I'd be lying if I said I was certain.
  #25  
Old 03-05-2020, 10:35 AM
bump is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 19,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakalwe View Post
Cite?!?!?

Today's "moderate" Democrat would have been a Reagan Republican in 1981.
I don't know about that. Seems to me that in a lot of ways, they're shifting left in response to public opinion. Stuff like UHC, gay rights, etc... are all accepted parts of all of their platforms, and that stuff was not in the cards 20 years ago.

Look at Biden- even his positions have shifted left over the years.
  #26  
Old 03-05-2020, 11:39 AM
tullsterx is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 974
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Maybe not on every issue, but his praise of white supremacists, his own racist statements, and his administration's racist policies qualify as "radical right wing".
He's the first President to support gay marriage at the time of his election. Obama shifted mid-2nd term.

He supports state's rights when it comes to abortion.

He's definitely not a fiscal conservative.

But, he does successfully appeal to those on the right in the way that he "postures" himself. That's pretty much why he's President.
  #27  
Old 05-10-2020, 11:22 AM
Sdowiat is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 61

I dispute your premise....


Your premise obviously is that Trump is EXTREMELY right wing.... How's that? What is it that he has done that is EXTREME? Trying to keep out people who aren't supposed to be here? Letting Israel decide where their own Capital is? ( after we voted to do it 25 years ago! ) Stands up to China, North Korea and ISIS? Enjoys Christian support? Doesn't like overbearing regulation?

I think ya'll have completely lost it. And being all overcome with TDJ only hurts your positions... I makes YOUR positions look extreme.

Look, BY DEFINITION, If right at half of America has those same believe's than obviously it's NOT extreme. It's at least FAIRLY MAINSTREAM. You may disagree with it but that doesn't make HIS position extreme, it makes YOURS at least non-mainstream and maybe the one who IS extreme.
  #28  
Old 05-10-2020, 12:29 PM
The Tooth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 4,995
Putting children in concentration camps doesn't keep them out, it keeps them in. I don't know what TDJ is, but I'm pretty sure you'd have to do some pretty fancy footwork to convince me that not putting children in concentration camps is an extreme position.
  #29  
Old 05-10-2020, 01:35 PM
kaylasdad99 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Anaheim, CA
Posts: 33,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tooth View Post
Putting children in concentration camps doesn't keep them out, it keeps them in. I don't know what TDJ is, but I'm pretty sure you'd have to do some pretty fancy footwork to convince me that not putting children in concentration camps is an extreme position.
I don’t even know what TDJ stands for.

As far as moderate Republicans in the WH are concerned, we basically had them in 1993-2001 and 2009-2017.

I’m one of those guys who views “moderate” as an absolute quantity, not subject to variations imposed by that Overton character.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 05-10-2020 at 01:37 PM.
  #30  
Old 05-10-2020, 03:18 PM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the Land of Smiles
Posts: 21,567
Re-reading the OP, it seems to assume some "business as usual" model, in which the D and R parties both remain viable. But this is not correct.

The GOP is trying to destroy American democracy. They make no secret of it: they brag about suppressing Democratic votes, and their gerrymandering. In Wisconsin they jacked-off to their own cleverness of suppressing mail-in ballots and forcing long voter queues during a pandemic. There's an excellent chance that the D's will win the popular vote in November but the Rs will find some ways to cheat and remain in power.

The Rs continue to do huge damage to American institutions including its democracy. If they retain power they will continue to usurp the democracy; they may find ways to retain power for decades. OTOH, if the Ds manage to win in November despite GOP cheating, they can undo some of the damage. In free elections with fair information, and voters awakened to GOP perfidy, the present Republican Party may wither away.

Therefore questions like OP's — "Will you trade the 2022 election for the 2024 election? What about 2026?" — miss the whole point. Americans must come to their senses and win THIS election ... before it's too late.

Last edited by septimus; 05-10-2020 at 03:19 PM.
  #31  
Old 05-10-2020, 04:02 PM
HMS Irruncible is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,384
If I have to live under 4 more years of a Republican president, let's just re-elect the drooling idiot. The Trump bomb has already exploded and turned the GOP into a crime syndicate. We can't risk electing one who actually knows how to do the job and wield the levers of power effectively.

For all the horrors Trump has brought us, I feel like it's been blunted by the fact that he's ideologically rootless, pathetically incompetent, obsessed by his popularity, and distracted by his business interests. Mostly all he's done is tear down the accomplishments of his betters and fiddle while Rome burns.
  #32  
Old 05-10-2020, 04:14 PM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the Land of Smiles
Posts: 21,567
I agree with HMS Irruncible. At this point, we may as well assume that any Republican leader will be evil and corrupt. That Trump is a drooling idiot too incompetent to maximize damage is his one saving grace.

Yes, he's babyish enough to Push the Nuclear Button in a tantrum, but I think adults at DoD have probably disconnected his Button.
  #33  
Old 05-10-2020, 04:21 PM
Exapno Mapcase is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NY but not NYC
Posts: 32,465
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Therefore questions like OP's — "Will you trade the 2022 election for the 2024 election? What about 2026?" — miss the whole point. Americans must come to their senses and win THIS election ... before it's too late.
Yes, yes, yes.

When will people finally get it? No Republican should ever win an election until the party falls apart and reconstitutes itself without the bigotry and hate. No Republican, ever, at any level of government, for any reason, even is the Democratic opponent is a murder hornet.

Trump is merely the logical culmination of the Republican party since Nixon. Trump isn't responsible for all the red states; they preceded him. He isn't responsible for the Tea Party or the NRA or the white supremacists. But a blue wave in November makes a huge step toward ending the plague.
  #34  
Old 05-10-2020, 04:26 PM
Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 28,143
Take scenario two, replace Biden with Sanders, and the rest of the scenario is what is fairly likely to happen.

So yeah, I’ll take that.
  #35  
Old 05-10-2020, 06:31 PM
HMS Irruncible is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdowiat View Post
Look, BY DEFINITION, If right at half of America has those same believe's than obviously it's NOT extreme.
How are you defining "half of America"? There were 237 million eligible voters, and 62 million voted for Donald Trump? By my math that's 26%. That's not half. Learn to count.

And never forget, more Americans chose Hillary over Trump. Don't ever pretend he's more popular and don't pretend he represents half of America. Trump won because half of America didn't choose anybody at all.
  #36  
Old 05-10-2020, 07:34 PM
Sherrerd's Avatar
Sherrerd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Re-reading the OP, it seems to assume some "business as usual" model, in which the D and R parties both remain viable. But this is not correct.

The GOP is trying to destroy American democracy. They make no secret of it: they brag about suppressing Democratic votes, and their gerrymandering. In Wisconsin they jacked-off to their own cleverness of suppressing mail-in ballots and forcing long voter queues during a pandemic. There's an excellent chance that the D's will win the popular vote in November but the Rs will find some ways to cheat and remain in power.

The Rs continue to do huge damage to American institutions including its democracy. If they retain power they will continue to usurp the democracy; they may find ways to retain power for decades. OTOH, if the Ds manage to win in November despite GOP cheating, they can undo some of the damage. In free elections with fair information, and voters awakened to GOP perfidy, the present Republican Party may wither away.

Therefore questions like OP's — "Will you trade the 2022 election for the 2024 election? What about 2026?" — miss the whole point. Americans must come to their senses and win THIS election ... before it's too late.
^ This. Any hypothetical that includes the idea that Trump winning in 2020 will set up the Democrats for BIG WINS in 2022 and 2024, is null and void. Trump winning in 2020 will set up Putin-style elections for the rest of our lives, in which the Glorious Leader gets 95% of the vote (to make it look good).

I strongly suspect that no such hypothetical is ever made in good faith. These "just asking questions" exercises are intended to sell the idea that there's no real need to work against Trump's re-election, because We Just Might Be Better Off If He's Re-Elected, riiiight??????!!1!!???

Wrong.



Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
How are you defining "half of America"? There were 237 million eligible voters, and 62 million voted for Donald Trump? By my math that's 26%. That's not half. Learn to count.

And never forget, more Americans chose Hillary over Trump. Don't ever pretend he's more popular and don't pretend he represents half of America. Trump won because half of America didn't choose anybody at all.
^ This, too.
  #37  
Old 05-10-2020, 07:49 PM
Ann Hedonia's Avatar
Ann Hedonia is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Maybe not on every issue, but his praise of white supremacists, his own racist statements, and his administration's racist policies qualify as "radical right wing".
There are 3 things that Trump wants to accomplish during his time in office

1. Stopping the immigration of non-white people into the US

2. “Growing the economy” by doing the following. Please notice that, coincidentally, these items all serve to personally enrich Donald Trump

a. Altering the tax code so that the wealthy individuals and corporations pay as little tax as possible. He also really wants to bring back extravagant entertainment tax deductions for wealthy businessmen.

b. Altering labor and environmental restrictions on businesses so they can enrich themselves by trashing the environment and screwing over their workers

c. Altering monetary policy so interest rates are artificially low in perpetuity, meaning cheap money for the Trump Organization.

3. Eliminating the enforcement of laws against white collar crime and the prosecution of white collar criminals in all but the most egregious cases. Obviously, this benefits Trump and friends personally.

He doesn’t care about anything else. As long as the Republican leadership gives him those things, he’ll give them anything else they want and he’ll endorse those ideas like they were his own, he’s a pitchman, a huckster, he can sell anything.

It’s their grand bargain. The Republican Party sees Trump as a murder weapon and they traded their soul for it.
  #38  
Old 05-10-2020, 08:45 PM
River Hippie's Avatar
River Hippie is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: N.E. Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,017
I can't think of a Republican I would trust any more than I trust Trump. Elected Republicans, I guess I meant to say. They all seem to have swallowed the Trump narrative. Some of them (Romney, for example) have offered the mildest token resistance but fuck 'em all. If they are willing to have that "R" after their name...they are as bad as Trump in my opinion.
  #39  
Old 05-11-2020, 07:26 AM
Shodan is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 40,870
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
The alternative scenario is Sanders winning the nomination. In this scenario Sanders beats Trump in the fall. 2022 is a red wave, just like 1994 and 2010. The senate stays red despite the map being favorable to Democrats. In 2024 a Republican along the lines of Mitt Romney or John Kasich wins the election. 2026 is a small blue victory. 2028 brings the re-election of Romney / Kasich / whoever. 2030 is a blue wave. It’s not until 2032 that we’re looking at the opportunity for another Democratic president. On the other hand there would be no more Trump.
I'd go for this scenario in a heartbeat.

Sanders has essentially zero chance of bringing about anything he proposes. A Democrat-controlled House, and even a narrowly Democrat-controlled Senate, isn't going to do what he wants - it would have to be a democratic socialist-controlled House and Senate, and that won't happen. So, two years of deadlock and bumbling, followed by four years of moderate Republicanism (Romney would be a dream candidate for me) and then four more years of deadlock, where Democrats try to get stuff done over a GOP veto and filibuster.

Works for me. Some of the time we would be getting better, at least some of the time we wouldn't be getting worse.

Regards,
Shodan
  #40  
Old 05-11-2020, 08:46 AM
Gyrate is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 24,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling Archer View Post
At some point people have to wake up and realize they are being lied to.
No they don't. This is entirely the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
My priority is getting Trump out of office. He's not normal, even for a Republican.
A better priority would be getting Republicans out of everywhere else, and the Senate in particular. A Senate (and Senate Leader) that wasn't openly running interference for Trump would be able to exercise its oversight powers and reaffirm the rule of law. We could have an impeachment trial in which actual evidence and witnesses were presented. The White House's agenda wouldn't be automatically rubber-stamped. And accountability would be reintroduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tullsterx View Post
He's definitely not a fiscal conservative.
No one in the GOP is a fiscal conservative. Rush has even confirmed it. It's all talk and it's been all talk for a long, long time.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:16 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017