Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #251  
Old 12-13-2019, 06:44 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
For all the things I despise about Blairism, one thing it got absolutely right was the notion that winning over 'Mondeo Man' is key to achieving power in this country.
  #252  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:07 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
"His dad voted Labour, he said. He used to vote Labour, too. But he'd bought his own house now. He'd set up his own business. He was doing very nicely. "So I've become a Tory" he said. In that moment, he crystallised for me the basis of our failure... His instincts were to get on in life. And he thought our instincts were to stop him. But that was never our history or our purpose."

This was how Blair explained his view of what had been wrecking Labour chances during the 80s and 90s.

With the scheduled end of this parliament due to mark a half-century in which he is the only non-Tory to win a general election, Labour probably ought to stop focusing on the many awful things Blair did, and start digging out the positive lessons his successes offer.
  #253  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:25 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Swinson: "so sorry I couldn’t get them re-elected"

Corbyn: "very sad for colleagues who have lost their seats"

Both useless, but at least Jo has the guts to take responsibility for it.

Last edited by Mrs McGinty; 12-13-2019 at 07:25 PM.
  #254  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:28 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Corbyn and his entourage really need to fuck off now, and stop trying to rebuild Labour in his image.

The party needs to be of the left. That's a given. But his brand of leftism is a total crock, and offensive with it.
  #255  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:46 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Interesting thing a friend said to me:

One stark but largely underappreciated difference between Johnson and Corbyn is their response to criticism. Corbyn takes it personally whereas Johnson treats it as an occupational hazard.

The effect is that Johnson rides past his most egregious personal failings, while Corbyn gets bogged down in his.
  #256  
Old 12-14-2019, 02:57 AM
Malden Capell is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: London
Posts: 2,395
Johnson runs away from criticism.

I'm despairing and simply questioning what is the future of democratic politics after this. The Tories have lied and broken the law and trampled over fair play to a degree I've not seen in history and they've been rewarded for it. What's to stop this becoming the norm?

People being bored of Brexit does not change the fact that it will crush this country despite what they want to believe about it.

It seems people yearn to be lied to and rewarded those who say lies they like.

So what is the future of British democracy, because I can't see one.
  #257  
Old 12-14-2019, 03:39 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 9,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFiSam View Post
Though I'd strongly dispute that the loss was largely down to Corbyn's personal attributes. The spread of votes makes that unlikely. It was Brexit.
I will try and find it but buried in the Guardian live feed yesterday was a poll on why people had not voted Labour.

The top reason? Even amongst Labour voters who turned tory? Corbyn. Second was Brexit. That is exactly in line with what I've heard, with what labour activists and canvassers have heard with what the vox pops has been saying with the leadership popularity polls have been saying.
If that many people tell you something, in so many ways, over such a long period of time and back it up with actual voting then it is probably wise to listen.

Corbyn and his fans have yet to acknowledge that fact, is it any wonder that they lost?

It is my go-to and I apologise in advance but I was reminded of this Mitchell and Webb sketch.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #258  
Old 12-14-2019, 03:51 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 9,432
heres the poll that I saw yesterday, do people still think Corbyn wasn't the main reason?
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #259  
Old 12-14-2019, 06:14 AM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
heres the poll that I saw yesterday, do people still think Corbyn wasn't the main reason?
I don't, and I can't stand the bloke - he's the easiest target in the world to take the blame, though.

He polled 40% of the vote in 2017 - that is an electable person in anyone's language. Don't care how bad Teresa May was, this indicates the current narrative that JC was despised on the doorstep up and down the country cannot be true (unless you're saying he's changed in the intervening 2 years - JC, change, genuine LOL).

When you've got ex-miners on benefits queuing up to vote Tory in the NE, after 9 years of harsh and increasingly incompetent Tory government, the current PM a punchline to a joke, this tells you very powerful forces are afoot that are far far bigger than Corbyn. Honestly think prime Tony Blair would have gotten rinsed last Thursday.

Labour's national constituency was rent asunder by brexit (plus fifty odd seats in Scotland are gone, which devestates their political arithmetic). There is no trite 'just support leave' solution to this - you'd need some sort of LBJ political operator to strategise a way out, and then a genius communicator like Blair to take it to the people.

So it's easy to talk about JC's failings, and it would make for a very long thread, but labour were steam-rollered by events IMHO. JC merely the salt in a gaping red wound.
  #260  
Old 12-14-2019, 07:05 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 9,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
this indicates the current narrative that JC was despised on the doorstep up and down the country cannot be true
I think the only way to know what people think is to ask them, that is what the poll did and the results do show that he was by far the biggest reason why people didn't vote labour.

I'm not sure what other cite would carry greater wieght, what would convince you that he was the biggest factor?
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #261  
Old 12-14-2019, 07:09 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 9,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
He polled 40% of the vote in 2017 - that is an electable person in anyone's language.
Forgot to respond to this, 40% may well have been at the bottom end of what was achievable for Labour in that election, Labour were, by pretty much all accounts, presented with an open goal and they still lost. Certainly even at that time he was a turn-off and unpopular with the public generally and I think a non-Corbyn front bench could have done much better.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #262  
Old 12-14-2019, 07:10 AM
TPWombat is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Pit of Despair
Posts: 1,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFiSam View Post
Not quite true about prescriptions. People with long-term disabilities don't get free prescriptions unless they have one of a very limited set of conditions (diabetes, thyroid disease, cancer, and some people with epilepsy, plus a couple of less common conditions). Losing a limb, using a wheelchair full time, being blind, etc - those do not entitle you to free prescriptions. Some disabled people might be eligible for free prescriptions due to low income, but people without disabilities are also entitled to apply for an exemption on income grounds - disability has nothing to do with it.
Also, ANYONE can buy a Prescription Prepayment Certificate at just under £11/month if you get one for a year and pay by direct debit. It pays for ALL your prescriptions. Saved me a fortune over the years . I am constantly grateful that this has (so far) not been withdrawn
  #263  
Old 12-14-2019, 07:40 AM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
He polled 40% of the vote in 2017 - that is an electable person in anyone's language. Don't care how bad Teresa May was, this indicates the current narrative that JC was despised on the doorstep up and down the country cannot be true
I voted Labour in 2017, and would have done so again this week if there had been any hope of unseating the Tory incumbent, and I can tell you that I absolutely despise Jeremy Corbyn, and that his leadership is far and away the main thing that has made me not want to vote Labour. The arrogance, vanity and selfishness with which he has treated the office of party leader is unforgivable in my eyes. That he and the people around him are still focusing on how blameless he is, and talking about how everyone else should stop being mean to him, is almost beyond belief.

Swinson, for all that she was a bloody disaster of a leader for the LDs, at least gets this: you fucked it up, so say sorry, or else you just conform that you never really cared about anything but your own sense of personal virtue in the first place.
  #264  
Old 12-14-2019, 07:47 AM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
confirm, not conform
  #265  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:02 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 9,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs McGinty View Post
Swinson, for all that she was a bloody disaster of a leader for the LDs, at least gets this: you fucked it up, so say sorry, or else you just conform that you never really cared about anything but your own sense of personal virtue in the first place.
I think it will be fascinating to see how the next labour leadership contest plays out. Abbot, McDonnell and Corbyn should be out on their arse but how far will the purge go? how far will it be allowed to go? Will Momentum decide that Corbyn just wasn't Corbyn enough?

I'm looking forward to the revisionism of Long-Bailey et al. Prepare to be astonished how many of them clearly saw the divisiveness of Corbyn but stoicly supported him anyway.
I predict a concerted effort by Labour grandees to wrestle back some degree of control. The dust will settle but as soon as shadow cabinet members start to go, the fun will start.

Anyhow, another report from the Labour front line on how Corbyn and Corbynism was seen as poisonous on the doorstep. Turns out Ashworth's tape earlier this week was reportage rather than light-hearted joshing.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #266  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:30 AM
Kimera757 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 678
I wonder if a lot of centre-left Labour voters will switch to the Liberal Democrats, if a Corbynite wins the next Labour leadership.
  #267  
Old 12-14-2019, 11:06 AM
Fiendish Astronaut's Avatar
Fiendish Astronaut is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: London - England
Posts: 1,204
Separating Corcyn from Brexit is also ridiculous. If Corbyn had gone to conference, banged his fist on the table, and given them a position to vote for that they could take to the public, it would have been passed and he could have gone into the election with a strong Brexit proposition that he could have led on and spoken about confidently. Instead he let the party lead him. That's not leadership and it showed.
  #268  
Old 12-14-2019, 11:43 AM
Elendil's Heir is online now
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 221B Baker St.
Posts: 87,385
The PM calls for unity and healing: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boris-j...ry-2019-12-14/
  #269  
Old 12-14-2019, 11:52 AM
Malden Capell is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: London
Posts: 2,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
The PM calls for unity and healing: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boris-j...ry-2019-12-14/
By which he means 'shut up and take your medicine'
  #270  
Old 12-14-2019, 02:47 PM
dalej42 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 15,255
McDonnell won’t be part of the next shadow cabinet.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e_iOSApp_Other

I don’t even want to see the incompetent face of Diane Abbott on the back benches. No shadow cabinet should ever include her again.

Corbyn has been quite silent about when he’s announcing his resignation. I don’t care about Christmas, for the good of the developed world, he needs to stand down immediately and no transition period. Just go man, Go!!!
__________________
Twitter:@Stardales IG:@Dalej42
  #271  
Old 12-14-2019, 02:48 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
I think the only way to know what people think is to ask them, that is what the poll did and the results do show that he was by far the biggest reason why people didn't vote labour.

I'm not sure what other cite would carry greater wieght, what would convince you that he was the biggest factor?
An opinion poll, and an ephemeral one at that (tell us your thoughts on why you didn't do something) carries little weight relative to the facts in front of our faces. Red heartland seats like Blyth, Don Valley, Bishop Auckland, Bolsover going blue? Sorry, can't be happening - they've returned labour candidates forever, they'd elect an inanimate object with a red rosette before voting conservative. You can't seriously think they swung against their DNA because they didn't really like Corbyn, weren't sure of his policies (esp when they voted for him, and them, last time out)? Obviously it was brexit.

Last edited by Busy Scissors; 12-14-2019 at 02:50 PM.
  #272  
Old 12-14-2019, 03:01 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
An opinion poll, and an ephemeral one at that (tell us your thoughts on why you didn't do something) carries little weight relative to the facts in front of our faces. Red heartland seats like Blyth, Don Valley, Bishop Auckland, Bolsover going blue? Sorry, can't be happening - they've returned labour candidates forever, they'd elect an inanimate object with a red rosette before voting conservative. You can't seriously think they swung against their DNA because they didn't really like Corbyn, weren't sure of his policices? Obviously it was brexit.
The evidence is overwhelming that Corbyn was the number one problem. That doesn't exclude brexit - his shambolic handling of the issue was just further confirmation of what everyone but his cultists knew already.

To keep denying it makes his supporters look every bit as deluded - or disingenuous - as the climate deniers or anti-vaxxers.
  #273  
Old 12-14-2019, 03:02 PM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 25,052
Why can’t it be both?
  #274  
Old 12-14-2019, 04:08 PM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 9,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
An opinion poll, and an ephemeral one at that (tell us your thoughts on why you didn't do something) carries little weight relative to the facts in front of our faces. Red heartland seats like Blyth, Don Valley, Bishop Auckland, Bolsover going blue? Sorry, can't be happening - they've returned labour candidates forever, they'd elect an inanimate object with a red rosette before voting conservative. You can't seriously think they swung against their DNA because they didn't really like Corbyn, weren't sure of his policies (esp when they voted for him, and them, last time out)? Obviously it was brexit.
how else would we get a better or more accurate answer? and what do you mean "ephemeral" Opinium are an accurate and well respected polling organisation.

Look, Labour MP's say Corbyn is the biggest problem, so do the actual people who chose not to vote labour, leadership popularity polling backs this up, as do journalists, as do people who are from those actual areas. Bishop Auckland, Darlington, Sedgefield, Workington....these are all areas that I have close personal contact with. It is where I was born, it is where family and friends still live.

But somehow that answer, backed up with both anecdote and hard facts, is not credible? Certainly that seems to have been the denialist postition taken by the Corbyn faction and I can hardly blame them for wishing to ignore it, but how do you profit from not taking that lesson on board?

I ask you, in all honesty and clarity and I would appreciate a straight answer, If all the above does not convince you, what would? What evidence could be presented that would prompt you to say "Corbyn was the biggest issue"
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way

Last edited by Novelty Bobble; 12-14-2019 at 04:10 PM.
  #275  
Old 12-14-2019, 04:17 PM
Ryan_Liam is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 4,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
I don't, and I can't stand the bloke - he's the easiest target in the world to take the blame, though.

He polled 40% of the vote in 2017 - that is an electable person in anyone's language. Don't care how bad Teresa May was, this indicates the current narrative that JC was despised on the doorstep up and down the country cannot be true (unless you're saying he's changed in the intervening 2 years - JC, change, genuine LOL).

When you've got ex-miners on benefits queuing up to vote Tory in the NE, after 9 years of harsh and increasingly incompetent Tory government, the current PM a punchline to a joke, this tells you very powerful forces are afoot that are far far bigger than Corbyn. Honestly think prime Tony Blair would have gotten rinsed last Thursday.

Labour's national constituency was rent asunder by brexit (plus fifty odd seats in Scotland are gone, which devestates their political arithmetic). There is no trite 'just support leave' solution to this - you'd need some sort of LBJ political operator to strategise a way out, and then a genius communicator like Blair to take it to the people.

So it's easy to talk about JC's failings, and it would make for a very long thread, but labour were steam-rollered by events IMHO. JC merely the salt in a gaping red wound.
Alot of those constituents who were in the marginals repeatedly said they wouldn't vote for Corbyn due to his previous associations with sympathetic republican IRA groups. Now I know he didn't do anything, but showing anything other than stalwart defence of the Union to these people is tantamount to betrayal, so because of that, and a whole host of other reasons, they abandoned the Labour party. The media only amplified that message.
__________________
If you can read this signature, you've scrubbed too hard.
  #276  
Old 12-14-2019, 04:31 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
how else would we get a better or more accurate answer? and what do you mean "ephemeral" Opinium are an accurate and well respected polling organisation.

Look, Labour MP's say Corbyn is the biggest problem, so do the actual people who chose not to vote labour, leadership popularity polling backs this up, as do journalists, as do people who are from those actual areas. Bishop Auckland, Darlington, Sedgefield, Workington....these are all areas that I have close personal contact with. It is where I was born, it is where family and friends still live.

But somehow that answer, backed up with both anecdote and hard facts, is not credible? Certainly that seems to have been the denialist postition taken by the Corbyn faction and I can hardly blame them for wishing to ignore it, but how do you profit from not taking that lesson on board?

I ask you, in all honesty and clarity and I would appreciate a straight answer, If all the above does not convince you, what would? What evidence could be presented that would prompt you to say "Corbyn was the biggest issue"
No evidence could be presented. 3 years of festering Brexit and a completely fractured voter base was by far the biggest issue IMO. Nowhere in the multiverse do Labour win this election, doesn't matter who is in charge.

Whether they could have forced a hung parliament and a minority government with a non-awful leader - I thought maybe before the election. Certainly Corbyn represents an absolute nadir of labour leadership so it's reasonable to think that almost anyone else could have done better.
But like I posted above the sense of movement was epic, some of the swings were just staggering - it was a tidal wave and I don't think any other Labour leader holds it back absent very speculative alternative realities (e.g. what if momentum didn't exist? What if Miliband had played a longer game to build a legacy?)

Last edited by Busy Scissors; 12-14-2019 at 04:34 PM.
  #277  
Old 12-14-2019, 04:37 PM
Busy Scissors is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Euston Tavern
Posts: 2,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Liam View Post
Alot of those constituents who were in the marginals repeatedly said they wouldn't vote for Corbyn due to his previous associations with sympathetic republican IRA groups. Now I know he didn't do anything, but showing anything other than stalwart defence of the Union to these people is tantamount to betrayal, so because of that, and a whole host of other reasons, they abandoned the Labour party. The media only amplified that message.
But they voted for him in 2017 - Was he less of an IRA sympathising Islamist then?
  #278  
Old 12-14-2019, 05:23 PM
Malden Capell is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: London
Posts: 2,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Liam View Post
Alot of those constituents who were in the marginals repeatedly said they wouldn't vote for Corbyn due to his previous associations with sympathetic republican IRA groups. Now I know he didn't do anything, but showing anything other than stalwart defence of the Union to these people is tantamount to betrayal, so because of that, and a whole host of other reasons, they abandoned the Labour party. The media only amplified that message.
Ironic given their voting for a government that has betrayed abandon Northern Ireland and will lose Scotland.
  #279  
Old 12-14-2019, 05:54 PM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 9,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
No evidence could be presented.
Well at least you are honest about it.

It does mean however that you have ceased to debate in a rational way and there's clearly no point putting any further evidence to you.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #280  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:03 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Liam View Post
Alot of those constituents who were in the marginals repeatedly said they wouldn't vote for Corbyn due to his previous associations with sympathetic republican IRA groups. Now I know he didn't do anything, but showing anything other than stalwart defence of the Union to these people is tantamount to betrayal, so because of that, and a whole host of other reasons, they abandoned the Labour party. The media only amplified that message.
He didn't do anything?

He more-or-less openly supported the murder of British troops in Ireland for ideological reasons.

And he later repeated the trick with Iraq.

People remember that shit.
  #281  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:09 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
The company you keep matters.

Standing on a stage with someone legitimises their worst actions, and failing to call them out makes you complicit.
  #282  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:20 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
I've got far more respect for Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness than I have for Corbyn. They owned their choices. He never has.
  #283  
Old 12-15-2019, 03:17 PM
Grim Render is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,347
Speaking as an outsider, it seems to me Labour lost because they tried to straddle the fence on the most important issue, Brexit. Their lukewarm attitude lost them a lot of the most ardent Brexiters in their party. And the same totally failed to bring over any similar number of Remainers from the Tories.

Corbyns weaknesses probably helped there. Tory voters tend to prioritize the economy and Corbyn as leader raised the the threshold a lot for movement from the right to the left, while lowering it going the other way.

The sum total was a transfer of voters from left to right, especially in heavily Brexit areas.
  #284  
Old 12-16-2019, 07:21 AM
kevlaw is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 801
These are from a couple of days ago but they have been niggling at me and I must respond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
Jo Swinson loses as well so what’s left of the Libs…
The Lib Dem vote increased by over a million. They increased their vote share in almost every constituency where they stood (Except Ms Swinson's, obviously).


Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenWyvern View Post
Jo Swinson has lost her seat. So much for being the next prime minister.

It underlines how wrongheaded the Lib Dems have been in this election.
She lost her seat to the anti-Brexit SNP.

Yes, Jo Swinson was disappointing but this narrative that the Lib Dems lost badly is seriously misleading.
  #285  
Old 12-16-2019, 04:35 PM
Mk VII is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: England
Posts: 2,968
They were the natural party of those who wanted Remain - once Remain is moot (or has turned into Rejoin) those people may not have reason to stay with the LD's.
  #286  
Old 12-17-2019, 07:00 AM
Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 24,257
The SNP were also strongly Remain, so that advantage was neutralised in Scotland.

The thing I never understood about the LibDems this campaign season was the attempt to make this a personality contest. Branding them "Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats" only works if people like Jo Swinson specifically, and there doesn't seem to have been any evidence of that (quite the contrary, in fact). Paddy and Vince could have done it, but Jo was a no-go.
  #287  
Old 12-17-2019, 10:07 AM
kevlaw is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
Branding them "Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats" only works if people like Jo Swinson specifically, and there doesn't seem to have been any evidence of that (quite the contrary, in fact).
If I had to guess, I'd say they did it to draw attention to the fact that she was neither Boris Johnson nor Jeremy Corbyn.

I don't think it worked (as you say, she did not seem terribly popular and the Lib Dems only gained 1,300,000 votes) but I think that's what they were shooting for.

Last edited by kevlaw; 12-17-2019 at 10:09 AM. Reason: wordsmith
  #288  
Old 12-17-2019, 01:07 PM
dalej42 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 15,255
A great article from Stephen Kinnock, Labour MP and son of former Labour leader Neil Kinnock.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...y-party-action

May be paywalled, may require registration. The New Statesman is a very temperamental website when accessed out of the U.K.

Kinnock’s points are quit blaming everyone (just like I’ve mentioned) The incessant whining about Corbyn media bias and rigged polls gets really old. Just like a football manager who wants to always blame the referees.

Second, quit making policy to just appeal to urban elites. There’s still a lot of Labour support in the north of England that doesn’t necessarily want what the wonks think up in a trendy Shoreditch cafe.

This is why I want Corbyn’s resignation NOW. I know what he’s doing, trying to pull every string to make sure a Corbyn clone is the next leader. Labour needs a 100 percent rejection of Corbynism to be a major political party.
__________________
Twitter:@Stardales IG:@Dalej42
  #289  
Old 12-18-2019, 06:01 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
The thing I never understood about the LibDems this campaign season was the attempt to make this a personality contest. Branding them "Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats" only works if people like Jo Swinson specifically, and there doesn't seem to have been any evidence of that (quite the contrary, in fact). Paddy and Vince could have done it, but Jo was a no-go.
This is so true. Swinson was a disaster from the moment she won the leadership. Her acceptance speech was a study in bad identity politics, focusing on how important an achievement it was for her - as a woman - to get the job.

The British public don't really give a shit about the gender of our leaders. There are obviously gender-specific expectations of any given politician - we always look for recognisable patterns in people - but simply being male or female isn't any kind of consideration at this stage, and any politician who makes it so is asking to get their arse handed to them.
  #290  
Old 12-18-2019, 06:21 PM
Dr. Drake is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 6,361
My husband finally received his ballot today. WHAT THE FUCK.
  #291  
Old 12-19-2019, 05:10 AM
Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 24,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
The incessant whining about Corbyn media bias and rigged polls gets really old. Just like a football manager who wants to always blame the referees.
So we shouldn't blame the referees even when we can openly see one team paying them off?
  #292  
Old 12-19-2019, 06:47 AM
dalej42 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 15,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
So we shouldn't blame the referees even when we can openly see one team paying them off?
Then you pay them more or have a player take the referee out.

Corbyn looks so smug during the State Opening. He should have already stepped down and be hanging his head in shame on the far back benches where he used to sit and belongs now. He wouldn’t even have to wear a necktie!
__________________
Twitter:@Stardales IG:@Dalej42
  #293  
Old 12-19-2019, 07:52 AM
Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 24,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
Then you pay them more or have a player take the referee out.
And if they send one of ours to the hospital, we send one of theirs to the morgue. It's the Westminster way. Got it.
  #294  
Old 12-19-2019, 10:30 AM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
Corbyn looks so smug during the State Opening. He should have already stepped down and be hanging his head in shame on the far back benches where he used to sit and belongs now. He wouldn’t even have to wear a necktie!
Of course he's smug. He and his mates are going to spend the next three months pocketing salaries that most of the rest of us could only dream of, despite having failed so badly at their jobs that any other organisation would have sacked them already.

It's increasingly clear that the whole thing has been a self-serving act from the start. They have absolutely no shame about rinsing every last penny from the party, and clearly do not give the slightest shit about either Labour or the people it is supposed to represent.
  #295  
Old 12-19-2019, 12:16 PM
kevlaw is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs McGinty View Post
It's increasingly clear that the whole thing has been a self-serving act from the start. They have absolutely no shame about rinsing every last penny from the party, and clearly do not give the slightest shit about either Labour or the people it is supposed to represent.
I have no love at all for Corbyn and his mates but I don't think this is right.

I think it's more likely that he is so convinced of the righteousness of his cause that he doesn't trust anyone else to not fuck it up. He is staying (and keeping his cronies in place) to make sure the flame stays alive.
  #296  
Old 12-19-2019, 02:50 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevlaw View Post
I have no love at all for Corbyn and his mates but I don't think this is right.

I think it's more likely that he is so convinced of the righteousness of his cause that he doesn't trust anyone else to not fuck it up. He is staying (and keeping his cronies in place) to make sure the flame stays alive.
I don't doubt this is what they're telling themselves. But I think that's just a comfortable delusion they've settled into, when in fact it's the money and status they don't want to let go. The underlying truth is they're all finished as soon as this ends. In contrast to other losing teams, they are all too old and their failures too extreme for them to have any future in public life, and they are too strongly anti-capitalist to have lucrative private-sector opportunities ahead of them.
  #297  
Old 12-19-2019, 03:05 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
One of the biggest mistakes people made in giving so much support to Corbyn was imagining him to be on some higher level of purity than other politicians. It was bullshit from the start, and his efforts to cultivate that image over and above the interests of the party and its voters have revealed just how cynical and selfish he really is.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:56 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017