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  #51  
Old 12-22-2019, 09:03 AM
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The argument put forth in the Business Insider article (in the follow-on paragraphs) was that Democrats often resonate with many voters in terms of economic/job/healthcare policies, but that their style or tone put them off. There is broad support in many swing-state circles for healthcare reform, a higher minimum wage, etc.
  #52  
Old 12-22-2019, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Yankees 1996 Champs View Post
Exactly. Democrats run on a platform of victimhood and "white, police, this, police are evil, etc.

Yes, white supremacy is prevalent in America and there is a policing problem, but the way how a lot of far-left people demonize police day in and day out doesn't bode well.

The Republicans run on a platform of "immigrants this, immigrants that". Climate deniers, union busters, etc.

The Democratic Party has a party of tribes and coalitions but with a bigger demographic share in the future.
The real challenge for Democrats was that they became less white, which wasn't a problem until white middle class people started getting displaced en masse in the 1980s. In fact, their diversity was arguably an advantage given the increasing number of minority voters.

But there were two tactical approaches they made that cost them the support of "Joe and Jane Six Pack" middle class whites.

One of those was competing with Republicans for campaign cash, cozying up to the very corporations that middle class white voters wanted protection from. Name brand Democrats were stroking Corporate America while Corporate America was gutting the middle class like fish. So that was one tactical decision that probably came back to bite them in the ass.

The Democrats probably compounded this mistake by becoming the party that defended the rights of undocumented immigrants. To be clear, I think undocumented immigrants and even legal immigrants have been scapegoated, but what I'm saying is that the Democrats established themselves as the party that defended the rights of people who weren't legally allowed in the country at a time when white middle class America was in a steep decline -- white factory workers, white plumbers, white mechanics, or white retail store workers who were no longer able to keep up with their wealthier white counterparts working in finance and tech.

And then...the Great Recession. The moment that will be seared into the memories of the generation that experienced it firsthand. Millions of people went from working at a company and earning a not great but good and steady income as a loan processor or some other mid-level job one day, and unemployed for months on end after. Many saw their retirement collapse. Many homeowners had to walk away from the home and their only investment. And yet, there the Democrats were, working with the Republicans to bail out the big banks and the billionaire class while the middle class white guy - and middle class black and latino guy I'd add - got screwed out of everything. At this point, the Democrats aren't just disconnecting with middle class whites, but they're increasingly making some middle class blacks and latinos wonder how their lives are improving as well. And when they look around, they see that they're not.

Once you've got this economic anxiety, it's easy for cultural anxieties to exacerbate the problem. Look at what happened after 2009, and particularly after 2010: Black Lives Matter, protests over police-involved shootings, gay marriage protected by the Supreme Court, DACA, and so on. And yet, after the election of Barack Obama, Democrats made another strategic decision that had major consequences: they approached campaigns and their agenda on the inevitability of America's future diversity - the assumption that, like in California, America would eventually became a majority non-white society. Conversely, the Republican party's response after 2012 was their post-mortem in which the Republican Establishment essentially reached the same conclusion, portending a bleak future for their party unless they changed.

But underneath it all, there was deep resentment, particularly among lower income and less educated whites. As Democrats continued to rub elbows with the very corporations that screwed their communities out of work and out of their homes, as Democrats continued to rush to defend the rights of people who didn't play by the rules to get into the country while seemingly ignoring the plight of those who grew up here, as Democrats and progressives campaigned to protect the rights of the relative few while ignoring the silent suffering and rising anger and displacement of the many, and as both parties spoke openly about the need to campaign away from middle class white communities, middle class white America wanted to send a message...and Donald Trump became their messenger.
  #53  
Old 12-22-2019, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
The argument put forth in the Business Insider article (in the follow-on paragraphs) was that Democrats often resonate with many voters in terms of economic/job/healthcare policies, but that their style or tone put them off. There is broad support in many swing-state circles for healthcare reform, a higher minimum wage, etc.
Fox News and right-wing radio have successfully inculcated in their audience a (mostly false) idea of what the "style or tone" of Democrats is that is specifically designed to turn them off. There's pretty much nothing Democrats can do about this when this audience avoids any media that tells them how liberals and Democrats feel from their own words (except for the times when a Democrat says something dumb that will fit into this narrative).
  #54  
Old 12-22-2019, 09:15 AM
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The real challenge for Democrats was that they became less white, which wasn't a problem until white middle class people started getting displaced en masse in the 1980s. In fact, their diversity was arguably an advantage given the increasing number of minority voters.

But there were two tactical approaches they made that cost them the support of "Joe and Jane Six Pack" middle class whites.

One of those was competing with Republicans for campaign cash, cozying up to the very corporations that middle class white voters wanted protection from. Name brand Democrats were stroking Corporate America while Corporate America was gutting the middle class like fish. So that was one tactical decision that probably came back to bite them in the ass.

The Democrats probably compounded this mistake by becoming the party that defended the rights of undocumented immigrants. To be clear, I think undocumented immigrants and even legal immigrants have been scapegoated, but what I'm saying is that the Democrats established themselves as the party that defended the rights of people who weren't legally allowed in the country at a time when white middle class America was in a steep decline -- white factory workers, white plumbers, white mechanics, or white retail store workers who were no longer able to keep up with their wealthier white counterparts working in finance and tech.

And then...the Great Recession. The moment that will be seared into the memories of the generation that experienced it firsthand. Millions of people went from working at a company and earning a not great but good and steady income as a loan processor or some other mid-level job one day, and unemployed for months on end after. Many saw their retirement collapse. Many homeowners had to walk away from the home and their only investment. And yet, there the Democrats were, working with the Republicans to bail out the big banks and the billionaire class while the middle class white guy - and middle class black and latino guy I'd add - got screwed out of everything. At this point, the Democrats aren't just disconnecting with middle class whites, but they're increasingly making some middle class blacks and latinos wonder how their lives are improving as well. And when they look around, they see that they're not.

Once you've got this economic anxiety, it's easy for cultural anxieties to exacerbate the problem. Look at what happened after 2009, and particularly after 2010: Black Lives Matter, protests over police-involved shootings, gay marriage protected by the Supreme Court, DACA, and so on. And yet, after the election of Barack Obama, Democrats made another strategic decision that had major consequences: they approached campaigns and their agenda on the inevitability of America's future diversity - the assumption that, like in California, America would eventually became a majority non-white society. Conversely, the Republican party's response after 2012 was their post-mortem in which the Republican Establishment essentially reached the same conclusion, portending a bleak future for their party unless they changed.

But underneath it all, there was deep resentment, particularly among lower income and less educated whites. As Democrats continued to rub elbows with the very corporations that screwed their communities out of work and out of their homes, as Democrats continued to rush to defend the rights of people who didn't play by the rules to get into the country while seemingly ignoring the plight of those who grew up here, as Democrats and progressives campaigned to protect the rights of the relative few while ignoring the silent suffering and rising anger and displacement of the many, and as both parties spoke openly about the need to campaign away from middle class white communities, middle class white America wanted to send a message...and Donald Trump became their messenger.

This is a very good point. Liberalism can generally only thrive in a society/nation that is prosperous and doing pretty well. In time of crisis, such as severe economic depression, war, being preyed upon by neighboring nations, right-wing strongmen tend to rise. A lot of grievances will want a scapegoat (or legit target of blame).
  #55  
Old 12-22-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
The real challenge for Democrats was that they became less white, which wasn't a problem until white middle class people started getting displaced en masse in the 1980s. In fact, their diversity was arguably an advantage given the increasing number of minority voters.

But there were two tactical approaches they made that cost them the support of "Joe and Jane Six Pack" middle class whites.

One of those was competing with Republicans for campaign cash, cozying up to the very corporations that middle class white voters wanted protection from. Name brand Democrats were stroking Corporate America while Corporate America was gutting the middle class like fish. So that was one tactical decision that probably came back to bite them in the ass.

The Democrats probably compounded this mistake by becoming the party that defended the rights of undocumented immigrants. To be clear, I think undocumented immigrants and even legal immigrants have been scapegoated, but what I'm saying is that the Democrats established themselves as the party that defended the rights of people who weren't legally allowed in the country at a time when white middle class America was in a steep decline -- white factory workers, white plumbers, white mechanics, or white retail store workers who were no longer able to keep up with their wealthier white counterparts working in finance and tech.

And then...the Great Recession. The moment that will be seared into the memories of the generation that experienced it firsthand. Millions of people went from working at a company and earning a not great but good and steady income as a loan processor or some other mid-level job one day, and unemployed for months on end after. Many saw their retirement collapse. Many homeowners had to walk away from the home and their only investment. And yet, there the Democrats were, working with the Republicans to bail out the big banks and the billionaire class while the middle class white guy - and middle class black and latino guy I'd add - got screwed out of everything. At this point, the Democrats aren't just disconnecting with middle class whites, but they're increasingly making some middle class blacks and latinos wonder how their lives are improving as well. And when they look around, they see that they're not.

Once you've got this economic anxiety, it's easy for cultural anxieties to exacerbate the problem. Look at what happened after 2009, and particularly after 2010: Black Lives Matter, protests over police-involved shootings, gay marriage protected by the Supreme Court, DACA, and so on. And yet, after the election of Barack Obama, Democrats made another strategic decision that had major consequences: they approached campaigns and their agenda on the inevitability of America's future diversity - the assumption that, like in California, America would eventually became a majority non-white society. Conversely, the Republican party's response after 2012 was their post-mortem in which the Republican Establishment essentially reached the same conclusion, portending a bleak future for their party unless they changed.

But underneath it all, there was deep resentment, particularly among lower income and less educated whites. As Democrats continued to rub elbows with the very corporations that screwed their communities out of work and out of their homes, as Democrats continued to rush to defend the rights of people who didn't play by the rules to get into the country while seemingly ignoring the plight of those who grew up here, as Democrats and progressives campaigned to protect the rights of the relative few while ignoring the silent suffering and rising anger and displacement of the many, and as both parties spoke openly about the need to campaign away from middle class white communities, middle class white America wanted to send a message...and Donald Trump became their messenger.
This gets my vote for "Best Answer."
  #56  
Old 12-22-2019, 11:09 AM
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I should add: Democrats would be wise to read asahi's analysis so that they could learn a few things. But even though I'm definitely "left-leaning," I know that Democrats won't learn squat (I share the very same frustrations with that political party that the OP does since I absolutely loathe the Republican Party).
  #57  
Old 12-22-2019, 11:19 AM
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What I'd say that, right now, in December 2019, the Democrats haven't really responded to the problems that cost them the election. In fact, with all of the attention focused squarely on impeachment, they are in grave danger of coming across as tone deaf. I say this as someone who, reluctantly, agrees that they have no choice but to impeach at this point. But the point I'm trying to make is that they're playing away from their strengths, and into Trump's hands. All Trump really has to do at this point is to tell voters to look at the scoreboard: you wanted me to be a good economic president, well, look at the scoreboard.

Even if Democrats do everything right, it's hard to beat an incumbent in Trump's position (i.e. riding an economy that's performing statistically as well as it has in decades). But they really need to make the economic inequality a real focus of the campaign. They actually need to do what Republicans tried to do with Obama and make labor participation rates an issue, and they need to point out economic inequality. They need to point out the collapse of farming in some states and the continued loss of manufacturing jobs, and the rise in the number of uninsured and the continued surge in healthcare costs and tuition costs. And then point out that beside all of this, Trump and the GOP's first priority was tax breaks for the rich, which threaten social security and medicare. That is really their only chance, and as much as I fear Bernie Sanders as president, there's no debating that at least some of his message on economics should be co-opted by Biden if he wants to win.
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Old 12-22-2019, 11:46 AM
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All Trump really has to do at this point is to tell voters to look at the scoreboard: you wanted me to be a good economic president, well, look at the scoreboard.
Y'know, I've long suspected that whatever the president does (or doesn't do) has MUCH less effect on the economy than what people want to give him credit for (or to blame him for, whichever is the case) and I think that what's going on under this current "president" proves that since he has absolutely no idea what the hell he's doing. If what that moron is up to really HAS had an effect on our economy then he's done nothing more than luck into it. Stupid S.o.B.
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Old 12-22-2019, 07:40 PM
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The real challenge for Democrats was that they became less white, which wasn't a problem until white middle class people started getting displaced en masse in the 1980s. .
What do you mean by "white middle class people started getting displaced en masse"? Displaced from where to where?

Plus do you think constantly referring to working class whites as "Joe Sixpack" endears them to vote Democrat? Or acting as if they are clueless serfs while attacking the corporations that provide their livelihood?
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Old 12-22-2019, 08:05 PM
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What do you mean by "white middle class people started getting displaced en masse"? Displaced from where to where?
I'm referring to the well-documented fact that at one time you could get a pretty decent paying job in this country without anything beyond a diploma. Whites weren't the only ones to be displaced -- the collapse of industry hurt black Americans, such as those who had fled the South to the North in the 40s and 50s. But it was white middle class America that had purchasing power, and white Americans have had, and still do have, socioeconomic status and political power. But demographic changes have left whites without degrees and without work feeling vulnerable.

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Plus do you think constantly referring to working class whites as "Joe Sixpack" endears them to vote Democrat? Or acting as if they are clueless serfs while attacking the corporations that provide their livelihood?
No, but I'm not a campaign speech writer and I don't see any of the candidates using that kind of language. I, on the other hand, am free to describe people any damn way I please.
  #61  
Old 12-22-2019, 08:10 PM
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Y'know, I've long suspected that whatever the president does (or doesn't do) has MUCH less effect on the economy than what people want to give him credit for (or to blame him for, whichever is the case) and I think that what's going on under this current "president" proves that since he has absolutely no idea what the hell he's doing. If what that moron is up to really HAS had an effect on our economy then he's done nothing more than luck into it. Stupid S.o.B.
It's just a given: if the economy is doing well, he's going to get at least some credit for not screwing it up, and if it's not doing well, he'll get blame for not fixing it. The extent to which he had anything to do with this growth doesn't matter -- people will vote to keep him because while they might genuinely conclude that he's a dumbass, sociopath, or both, they'll also conclude that 'things ain't that bad, and he's gone in 4 years.'

People aren't going to think about how Trump has already radically remade no less than one quarter of the federal judiciary in Mitch McConnell's image, and by the time he's done, we will undoubtedly have the most rock-solid hardcore, ideologically regressive right wing federal court system this country has seen in probably 125 years -- and perhaps ever.


Now, especially for the progressives who were so anti-Clinton that they really had to hold their nose and vote for her or who simply sat out the election of 2016 because they weren't inspired...let that sink in. How in the hell is a progressive going to change anything when fighting not only a Republican senate, but an ideologically whacked out federal court system.

This ought to be fun.

And yes, it'll get worse before it gets better.

Sorry.

Last edited by asahi; 12-22-2019 at 08:13 PM.
  #62  
Old 12-23-2019, 11:59 AM
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It's just a given: if the economy is doing well, he's going to get at least some credit for not screwing it up, and if it's not doing well, he'll get blame for not fixing it. The extent to which he had anything to do with this growth doesn't matter -- people will vote to keep him because while they might genuinely conclude that he's a dumbass, sociopath, or both, they'll also conclude that 'things ain't that bad, and he's gone in 4 years.'

People aren't going to think about how Trump has already radically remade no less than one quarter of the federal judiciary in Mitch McConnell's image, and by the time he's done, we will undoubtedly have the most rock-solid hardcore, ideologically regressive right wing federal court system this country has seen in probably 125 years -- and perhaps ever.


Now, especially for the progressives who were so anti-Clinton that they really had to hold their nose and vote for her or who simply sat out the election of 2016 because they weren't inspired...let that sink in. How in the hell is a progressive going to change anything when fighting not only a Republican senate, but an ideologically whacked out federal court system.

This ought to be fun.

And yes, it'll get worse before it gets better.

Sorry.
Yeah, I get that. But to me that just shows how little thought members of the electorate, on the whole, choose to put into these matters (reminds me of one of the early Simpsons episodes when Bart is running against Martin Prince for class president and just before the vote Mrs. Crabapple says, "Now, for those of you who are willing to put any THOUGHT into this" before, I think, giving each candidate a chance to make a final statement). It just goes to show that the Founding Fathers were on to something about an "uninformed populace." Difference is that people nowadays haven't got NEARLY as many excuses for being uninformed about such matters as they had back then. And yet these folks are still allowed a vote in this country. Sad.
  #63  
Old 12-27-2019, 04:36 PM
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Difference is that people nowadays haven't got NEARLY as many excuses for being uninformed about such matters as they had back then. And yet these folks are still allowed a vote in this country. Sad.
I'm not sure that's true. I think it's as hard or harder to determine the truth now than it was before.

Sure, it's easy to read and learn things, but there are so many sources pushing bullshit with a finely-tuned understanding of human psychology and no ethical restraints. Critical thinking is hard.

Last edited by iamthewalrus(:3=; 12-27-2019 at 04:38 PM.
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