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Old 01-09-2020, 03:19 PM
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Campaign Issue: Trump's Poor Health?


Should the Democratic candidate for president (whoever it may be) make an issue of the physical health of un-indicted co-conspirator Donald John Trump, the presumed Republican candidate for president? How about his mental health? Is it something that would help get out the anti-Trump vote, or would it backfire as punching down at an unwell person? Or would it be a distraction from important issues? Or maybe the Democratic candidate themself shouldn't discuss it, but leave it to proxies?

I think it should be an issue, addressed directly by the candidate. Trump is obviously having physical issues. Even if it's not disease-related, he doesn't appear to have the physical stamina needed to perform his duties. His mental capacity prevents him from adequately performing his duties as well.

Of course, as the current occupant, there's plenty of help available to mitigate his diminished capabilities, but in the context of a new election I don't think that matters. The electorate would like to be able to trust the president to make the best decisions, under demanding timelines, and the physical and mental health of the candidate directly affects that.

Other opinions?
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:21 PM
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Didn't work the first time.
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:21 PM
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If people don’t care that he’s an incompetent, immoral asshole, I’m not sure they would care if he’s unwell.
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:24 PM
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I'm all for using third-party attacks, memes, and the like, for such issues. Keep the candidates' hands cleans, but go after every possible point of attack. This is an all out political knife-fight, and the only rules are what one can get away with. If it's not effective, then no harm done.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 01-09-2020 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'm all for using third-party attacks, memes, and the like, for such issues. Keep the candidates' hands cleans, but go after every possible point of attack. This is an all out political knife-fight, and the only rules are what one can get away with. If it's not effective, then no harm done.
Ditto.
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:39 PM
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Within his base - plus likely R voters - is the likelihood of Pence as Pres viewed as desirable?

As much as I despise Trump, this lib could not definitely say he would PREFER Pence (if those were the only options.)
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:39 PM
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I'm guessing it might not be a winning strategy for Bernie Sanders.

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Old 01-09-2020, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'm all for using third-party attacks, memes, and the like, for such issues. Keep the candidates' hands cleans, but go after every possible point of attack. This is an all out political knife-fight, and the only rules are what one can get away with. If it's not effective, then no harm done.
This is what I think, too. It's a job for surrogates, not the candidate.
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:48 PM
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It could work if Warren or Buttigieg are the nominees. With Bernie it would just invite more reciprocal attacks in kind - he's 6 years older than Trump and had a heart attack. Biden's healthier physically but already has people questioning senility.
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'm all for using third-party attacks, memes, and the like, for such issues. Keep the candidates' hands cleans, but go after every possible point of attack. This is an all out political knife-fight, and the only rules are what one can get away with. If it's not effective, then no harm done.
Sounds like 2004 Kerry Swift-Boating logic.
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:51 PM
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Sounds like 2004 Kerry Swift-Boating logic.
Obviously! That shit works, unfortunately. The system is broken. Maybe our broader society and the whole country are too, but I hope not. We'll see.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 01-09-2020 at 03:52 PM.
  #12  
Old 01-09-2020, 03:53 PM
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If a candidate chooses to do it then they need to do it themselves. Otherwise they look weak.
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:56 PM
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The problem with being the first Jewish/(out)gay/woman president is that you have to be better than the other guy. Smarter, stronger, and cleaner.

But yeah, if proxies do it, it could help.

Assuming there are a lot of fence-sitters this time around.

I don't think there are. I think most people who plan to vote have already decided they're going to vote for Trump, or Anybody but Trump. The contest will probably be won by the party that goes out and scrounges up new voters, and convinces them, first of all, to vote, and second of all, to vote for their side. So far, no one is doing that. Trump is still catering to his base, and the Democrats are jockeying with one another, not even worrying about November.

At least, the base consists mostly of meatheads, who don't know activism from activating the TV remote. They're not likely to go out evangelizing for new voters. The Dems have been good at this in the past-- it's how Clinton was elected, lots of people in their 20s, who had been eligible to vote for 2-8 years, but never had before. We've gotta figure out where those unvoters are now.
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Old 01-09-2020, 04:02 PM
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If a candidate chooses to do it then they need to do it themselves. Otherwise they look weak.
By that standard, Trump is an over-boiled noodle.
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Old 01-09-2020, 05:19 PM
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There is no chance that this line of attack would make any difference. Trump will just keep repeating his fantastical hyperbole claims, "I am in the BEST health of any candidate EVER in the history of all of the Presidents!" He'll get some team of knuckle-head doctors to come out and swear they examined him and sign off on his claims.

In the meantime, he'll sling every possible nonsensical insult imaginable at his opponent about their physical and mental health. And some of his more clever supporters will produce manipulated videos to show his opponent in the worst possible light. The base will eat it up. The media will get sucked into reporting on it. And some narrow sliver of "undecided" voters (you know, morons) will furrow their brows and cluck, "I'm just not sure.....maybe there is something to this."
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Old 01-09-2020, 05:37 PM
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I agree with Icarus. Making a fuss over, "look how heavy his breathing is!" and "he sniffed a lot" and "he's so fat" is weak sauce. Kind of like Obama's tan suit. Besides, I'd take an out-of-shape president with reasonable intellect and values over Trump any day, even if Trump's physical well-being miraculously improved.

The only way I might change my mind is if his appearance/behavior went decisively over the line from "does he look a bit sickly?" to utterly undeniable loss of physical/mental health. But it would have to be extraordinarily severe - like, say, if he projectile vomited blood while giving a speech. Or he literally went blank and started drooling. Or he pooped his pants.

And he'd probably have to do all those things on at least three separate occasions for it to matter.
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Old 01-10-2020, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
The problem with being the first Jewish/(out)gay/woman president is that you have to be better than the other guy. Smarter, stronger, and cleaner.



But yeah, if proxies do it, it could help.



Assuming there are a lot of fence-sitters this time around.



I don't think there are. I think most people who plan to vote have already decided they're going to vote for Trump, or Anybody but Trump. The contest will probably be won by the party that goes out and scrounges up new voters, and convinces them, first of all, to vote, and second of all, to vote for their side. So far, no one is doing that. Trump is still catering to his base, and the Democrats are jockeying with one another, not even worrying about November.



At least, the base consists mostly of meatheads, who don't know activism from activating the TV remote. They're not likely to go out evangelizing for new voters. The Dems have been good at this in the past-- it's how Clinton was elected, lots of people in their 20s, who had been eligible to vote for 2-8 years, but never had before. We've gotta figure out where those unvoters are now.
Well, Kentucky's new governor (Andy Beshear - D) made one of his first declarations something that might help: he restored voting rights for ex-convicts who have had their sentences expire, or received a Final Discharge of parole.

They can apply to have their voting rights restored online.
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Old 01-10-2020, 10:05 AM
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The only way I might change my mind is if his appearance/behavior went decisively over the line from "does he look a bit sickly?" to utterly undeniable loss of physical/mental health. But it would have to be extraordinarily severe - like, say, if he projectile vomited blood while giving a speech. Or he literally went blank and started drooling. Or he pooped his pants.

And he'd probably have to do all those things on at least three separate occasions for it to matter.
It's notable that this is the level we've reached in concluding a president to be too incompetent to do his job. Not obvious misogyny, racism, pathological lying, abject ignorance, limited literacy, corruption and active undermining of democratic institutions.

To be considered incompetent to serve as POTUS, you must literally exhibit a psychological or neurological event during a public address. And you'll still get a pass on it the first couple of times.

Welcome to the *new* normal, folks.

It's fucking bonkers.
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Old 01-10-2020, 10:33 AM
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I, too, expect nothing more from the President than I do an average gas-station bathroom user.
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Old 01-10-2020, 11:33 AM
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Didn't work the first time.
Yes it certainly did. The Democrats made virtually no mention of Trump's health, but the Republicans made considerable mention of Clinton's health - esoecially after she collapsed - and it cost her votes.
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Old 01-10-2020, 11:37 AM
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Yes it certainly did. The Democrats made virtually no mention of Trump's health, but the Republicans made considerable mention of Clinton's health - esoecially after she collapsed - and it cost her votes.
Yesh, how's that "When they go low, we go high" stuff working out?
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Old 01-10-2020, 11:51 AM
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It's notable that this is the level we've reached in concluding a president to be too incompetent to do his job. Not obvious misogyny, racism, pathological lying, abject ignorance, limited literacy, corruption and active undermining of democratic institutions.

To be considered incompetent to serve as POTUS, you must literally exhibit a psychological or neurological event during a public address. And you'll still get a pass on it the first couple of times.

Welcome to the *new* normal, folks.

It's fucking bonkers.
Thank you. Yours is exactly my take on the situation.

To your list I would add reckless impulsivity that endangers our national security, obviously compromised by foreign powers and criminal to the bone. I realize you had the criminal part covered under "corruption," but it's so bad and so deep it deserves saying twice.

But no worries. He's not shitting himself while drooling out word salad and lies to his base, so we're good.
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Old 01-10-2020, 12:02 PM
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But no worries. He's not shitting himself while drooling out word salad and lies to his base, so we're good.
(Post snipped by me)

This part reminded me of Futurama:

Quote:
Leela: Let Mom buy the company! We all wanna be filthy, stinking rich!

Zoidberg: Trust me, two out of three doesn't cut it!
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Last edited by Superdude; 01-10-2020 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 01-10-2020, 01:08 PM
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It's notable that this is the level we've reached in concluding a president to be too incompetent to do his job. Not obvious misogyny, racism, pathological lying, abject ignorance, limited literacy, corruption and active undermining of democratic institutions.
While it seems like Republican voters value loyalty over character and that their votes are preordained, I think it's worthwhile reminding them how low their standards are. We owe it to the country to keep chipping at the Trump campaign, even when it seems futile, if only to preserve our own integrity.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:50 PM
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I, too, expect nothing more from the President than I do an average gas-station bathroom user.
You libel the average gas-station bathroom user, whom I expect will be no dumber than the average American, which Putin's Puppet clearly is.
  #26  
Old 01-10-2020, 03:57 PM
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Yesh, how's that "When they go low, we go high" stuff working out?
But when we join them in the mud, the party of "Fuck Your Feelings" acts all whiney.

Because their feelings MATTER, for some reason.
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Old 01-11-2020, 07:47 PM
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While it seems like Republican voters value loyalty over character and that their votes are preordained, I think it's worthwhile reminding them how low their standards are.
How well does that work out?

These are voters who BEFORE the election knew that their candidate bragged of bribery and sexual assaults, said he wanted to fuck his underage daughter, had screwed all who trusted their money with him, had cheated on taxes, etc. Did they care? Sure, voters knew Wee Willie Clinton was a horndog when they elected and re-elected him. (I didn't vote for him or any of his family or staff.) But this POTUS is on a different scale of malevolence and his followers are on a different scale of fuck-it-all-ness.

He twice tweeted, "Confiscate guns now, due process later." Who did that bother? What passed through Trampsters' alleged minds? Did any think, "He's gonna take my guns!" ?? I doubt it. More likely: "Oh it's just a joke." "Oh he doesn't mean MY guns." "Oh look how impressive he is."

I don't think the words "standards" and "Republicans" can work in the same sentence.

Last edited by RioRico; 01-11-2020 at 07:48 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-12-2020, 06:31 PM
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Should the Democratic candidate for president (whoever it may be) make an issue of the physical health of un-indicted co-conspirator Donald John Trump, the presumed Republican candidate for president? How about his mental health? Is it something that would help get out the anti-Trump vote, or would it backfire as punching down at an unwell person? Or would it be a distraction from important issues? Or maybe the Democratic candidate themself shouldn't discuss it, but leave it to proxies?

I think it should be an issue, addressed directly by the candidate. Trump is obviously having physical issues. Even if it's not disease-related, he doesn't appear to have the physical stamina needed to perform his duties. His mental capacity prevents him from adequately performing his duties as well.

Of course, as the current occupant, there's plenty of help available to mitigate his diminished capabilities, but in the context of a new election I don't think that matters. The electorate would like to be able to trust the president to make the best decisions, under demanding timelines, and the physical and mental health of the candidate directly affects that.

Other opinions?
I disagree with your premise that Trump is having obvious physical issues. He seems as healthy as the next 73 year old, which is to say, just fine. That being said, I say if Sanders or Biden or Warren get the nomination, they should stay away from age-related things as much as possible.
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