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Old 12-16-2019, 09:28 AM
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Democratic vs. Republican assumptions about voter behavior


After the 2016 election - and up to the present day - there have been Democrats/liberals who have repeatedly said things like, "Democrats push for what's in the interests of all Americans" and "How did Hillary lose when she had by far the better, more thought-out policy plans than Trump," "How did Hillary lose when she has been Senator and Secretary of State while Trump has never held elected office or public service?" "Why do rural Americans vote Republican when Democrats have the better policies for rural America?" etc.

Also referred to as the "What's the matter with Kansas?" question, whereby Kansans vote against what is considered to be in "their best interests."

This reflects a Democratic mindset that trying to win an election is akin to applying to Harvard, or acing a job interview - that your candidate puts forth his proposals and credentials against the opposing candidate's proposals and credentials, and whoever has the better resume or white paper, wins. When in fact an election is nothing of the sort. Indeed, the past four presidents have all come to power despite being less experienced and having a shorter resume than their opponents - Clinton beating Bush Sr., Bush Jr. beating Gore, Obama beating McCain, and Trump beating Hillary.

The Democratic assumption is that voters are motivated primarily by policies - that voters value substance over style, head over heart, and logic over feelings. There is no reason to believe that this is how voters actually behave. Such a model or assumption fails to take into account that spite or anger can play a strong role in getting voters of a certain political stripe to vote against Candidate X or Party X if they feel that Candidate/Party X is condescending or "not one of them." Republicans have tapped into this sentiment of late more effectively among certain categories of voters, and that is why the Kansas Problem exists - emotion and feelings can wield considerably more power than logic or facts.

When you put a candidate with Ivy League degrees, decades of Beltway experience and detailed policy proposals up against a demagogue who channels the anger and frustration of voters, the demagogue will almost always win.
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Old 12-16-2019, 09:33 AM
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some voters will look at the resume of the person running, how many I don't know. Each party starts out with about 40% of the vote. It's that middle 20% that makes the difference. I think the people who run Dem campaigns know that not everyone votes based on the resume. For example very religious people are not going to vote Dem except in rare cases.
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Old 12-16-2019, 09:49 AM
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In the general election, it's hard for me to imagine any circumstances in which I could vote for a member of the current version of the Republican party. I care too much about opposing misogyny, sexual assault/rape, racism/bigotry, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, the environment, and many more issues, to even consider voting for the side that represents all the wrong things on these issues.
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Old 12-16-2019, 09:56 AM
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some religious voters will freely admit Trump has done a lot of bad stuff but they don't care as long as he promotes what they want like right wing judges.
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Old 12-16-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
some religious voters will freely admit Trump has done a lot of bad stuff but they don't care as long as he promotes what they want like right wing judges.
This is something I missed out on adding in the OP: Democrats assumed that conservative voters would fall on their own swords and vote (D) or abstain from voting rather than vote for a candidate with all kinds of flaws (Trump; especially after how conservatives lambasted Bill Clinton in the 1990s.)
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Old 12-16-2019, 10:16 AM
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In the general election, it's hard for me to imagine any circumstances in which I could vote for a member of the current version of the Republican party. I care too much about opposing misogyny, sexual assault/rape, racism/bigotry, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, the environment, and many more issues, to even consider voting for the side that represents all the wrong things on these issues.
I'm not sure how this is relevant to the OP/thread.
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Old 12-16-2019, 10:18 AM
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I'm not sure how this is relevant to the OP/thread.
Apologies, I posted this to the wrong thread. It was meant to go in the economy poll thread you started.
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Old 12-16-2019, 10:20 AM
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some religious voters will freely admit Trump has done a lot of bad stuff but they don't care as long as he promotes what they want like right wing judges.
Yes, that is part of the 40% that will always vote Republican.
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Old 12-16-2019, 11:59 AM
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Its nautral for people to expect other to behave/feel as they themselves behave/feel.

The Democrats don't run people who channel hatred and anger not because they don't think those people can win an election, but because the Democrats don't like candidates like that and so such candidates don't win the primary. That is also the reason why attempts to make a liberal version of Fox news or talk radio have been unsuccessful. Dems, by and large, just don't like people lying to them the same way Republicans do.
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Old 12-16-2019, 02:20 PM
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The Democrats are not idiots. They are aware that there are a lot of people who pick who to vote for on the basis of the candidates' public personalities.

But elections aren't that simple. There are also people who vote based on which candidate they think will do a better job. There are people who vote based on which candidate more closely matches their position on a single issue they consider vital. There are people who vote based on what authority figures they consider reliable tell them to do. And there are a lot of people who pick a candidate for a mixture of these reasons.

You can't reduce it down to picking a candidate the voters will want to have a beer with and you're sure to win.
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Old 12-16-2019, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
In the general election, it's hard for me to imagine any circumstances in which I could vote for a member of the current version of the Republican party. I care too much about opposing misogyny, sexual assault/rape, racism/bigotry, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, the environment, and many more issues, to even consider voting for the side that represents all the wrong things on these issues.
Pretty much.

American politics can pretty much be summed up as follows for a lot of America.

On one side you have people who have high authoritarian tendencies and believe in strict social hierarchies (men over women, whites over non-whites, native born americans over immigrants, christians over other faiths, heterosexuals over LGBT, etc and feel those higher on the social hierarchy deserve better treatment) and who believe democracy is a hindrance to creating a society they want.

On the other side you have people with low authoritarian tendencies who believe in egalitarianism and believe democracy is necessary.

It sucks, but it is what it is. Maybe a small % of voters will be swayed by policy ideas, but most people know this all subconsciously and know which side of the isle they stand because of it.

The Obama voters who voted Trump in 2016 tend to fall into the first group, the Romney voters who voted Clinton in 2016 tend to fall into the second camp.
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Old 12-16-2019, 03:51 PM
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I think people vote based on preconceived notions and popularity. The difference is mostly in how they rationalize their choice.
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Old 12-16-2019, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
some religious voters will freely admit Trump has done a lot of bad stuff but they don't care as long as he promotes what they want like right wing judges.
Some, yes. It does depend on the particular version of the religion -- some take those instructions about how one treats the stranger in one's midst much more seriously than others.
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Old 12-16-2019, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
Its nautral for people to expect other to behave/feel as they themselves behave/feel.

The Democrats don't run people who channel hatred and anger not because they don't think those people can win an election, but because the Democrats don't like candidates like that and so such candidates don't win the primary. That is also the reason why attempts to make a liberal version of Fox news or talk radio have been unsuccessful. Dems, by and large, just don't like people lying to them the same way Republicans do.
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Pretty much.

American politics can pretty much be summed up as follows for a lot of America.

On one side you have people who have high authoritarian tendencies and believe in strict social hierarchies (men over women, whites over non-whites, native born americans over immigrants, christians over other faiths, heterosexuals over LGBT, etc and feel those higher on the social hierarchy deserve better treatment) and who believe democracy is a hindrance to creating a society they want.

On the other side you have people with low authoritarian tendencies who believe in egalitarianism and believe democracy is necessary.

It sucks, but it is what it is. Maybe a small % of voters will be swayed by policy ideas, but most people know this all subconsciously and know which side of the isle they stand because of it.

The Obama voters who voted Trump in 2016 tend to fall into the first group, the Romney voters who voted Clinton in 2016 tend to fall into the second camp.
So conservatives and Republicans are stupid, hateful, angry and evil while democrats have the well being of all mankind at heart?

Bubble.
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Old 12-16-2019, 05:48 PM
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So conservatives and Republicans are stupid, hateful, angry and evil while democrats have the well being of all mankind at heart?
I don't think the voters are those things - but the President they elected is a hateful, biased and appalling liar.
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Old 12-16-2019, 06:00 PM
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The part I don't get: I can understand (not agree with, but understand) the fundamentalists who always vote for the guy who pretends to be a fundamentalist. I can even understand if the guy they're supporting is doing a really bad job of pretending. But that's not Trump: Trump isn't even doing a bad job of pretending to be a Christian. He's not even trying, at all. And they still think he's the Chosen of God. Why!?
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Old 12-16-2019, 06:07 PM
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The part I don't get: I can understand (not agree with, but understand) the fundamentalists who always vote for the guy who pretends to be a fundamentalist. I can even understand if the guy they're supporting is doing a really bad job of pretending. But that's not Trump: Trump isn't even doing a bad job of pretending to be a Christian. He's not even trying, at all. And they still think he's the Chosen of God. Why!?
1. There are several Christian myths like that, most notably Cyrus (I think) of Persia. On a related note, Ben Carson exaggerated his criminal past (in order to make his "redemption arc" stronger). Carson had a lot of Christian support too.
2. Because Trump won an election they thought he would lose, and as long as he is in power, there will be lots of conservative judges getting appointments. Many on both sides think he will win the next election, which would mean even more conservative judges. (My brain tells me that such an unpopular leader cannot win another election. My heart fears that he will win somehow anyway.) I figure the less religious Republicans support him for electoral reasons as well - he somehow won an election they all thought they were going to lose, big time, after being repeatedly stomped by the Obama coalition.
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Old 12-16-2019, 06:33 PM
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Democrats by and large vote for those whose policies they believe are best. Republicans vote for the person most likely to hurt people that they hate.
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Old 12-16-2019, 06:56 PM
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It’s hard to generalize about groups as large as democrats and republicans and a lot of the responses are, sadly, inaccurate and unjustifiably self congratulatory.

If I had to post a short stereotype of how each party views the voters of the other I’d say democrats wrongly believe that their values and how they weigh those values are universal and people who vote against that assumption are spiteful. Republicans view democrats as motivated by the desire for power and the willingness to say and spend whatever it takes regardless of the strategic ramifications in order to get it.
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Old 12-16-2019, 09:39 PM
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Republicans support him for electoral reasons as well - he somehow won an election they all thought they were going to lose, big time, after being repeatedly stomped by the Obama coalition.
This is another oft-ignored aspect. Republicans were desperate for electoral victory after two defeats to Obama and being told for a decade that demographics consigned them to be a minority party forever. Trump saved them - temporarily. When a man is drowning in the ocean, he isn't going to reject a life preserver that's thrown to him just because it's not his favorite color.
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Old 12-16-2019, 10:51 PM
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... Each party starts out with about 40% of the vote. It's that middle 20% that makes the difference.....
Unfortunately, with the difference between the D's and R's so glaringly stark today, the undecided voters must all be very confused or uninformed. (Whenever someone brags about "thinking" rather than reflexively pulling the D or R lever, I have to stifle laughter.)

But will the election be decided by the "Undecideds"? Or is it about exciting the base? On this topic I was dismayed by some numbers I looked at recently:

Sanders got more than 79,000 write-in votes in the November 2016 election in California. Write-in votes: people had to go to much bother to cast these votes. In Pennsylvania, there were 49,000 write-in votes — more than Trump's winning margin. (We don't know how many of these write-ins were for Sanders: Pennsylvania doesn't bother to record the written-in name.)

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some religious voters will freely admit Trump has done a lot of bad stuff but they don't care as long as he promotes what they want like right wing judges.
Even more disgusting: they compare Trump with Cyrus the Great, the ruler who benefited the Jews even though he wasn't Jewish. Cyrus was an intelligent benevolent ruler much admired by Thomas Jefferson et al. To hear him compared with Donald Trump makes one want to vomit.
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Old 12-16-2019, 11:05 PM
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undecided voters must all be very confused or uninformed. (Whenever someone brags about "thinking" rather than reflexively pulling the D or R lever, I have to stifle laughter.)
I think this comment pretty well illustrates one of the points made in this thread, though - that many Democrats/liberals operate from a baseline assumption/attitude that "Our values are (or ought to be) universal or considered blatant common sense, and if some voters don't see things the way we do, that means something must be wrong with them."
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Old 12-17-2019, 02:20 AM
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I exaggerated to make my point!

The fact is that most "Independent" voters actually lean strongly toward either the Rs or the Ds. They call themselves "independent" either to distance themselves from partisanship, or because of one or two issues: Someone who prefers R consistently but is pro-choice and a pro-life or anti-immigrant D-voter may each describe themselves as "independent."

Voters who truly are "independent" and lean toward neither party have dwindled to less than 5% of the electorate. Unfortunately most web articles will lump the D-voting and R-voting "independents" together with the actual Undecideds in their statistics, so I can't point to research on, for example, the education level of the 5% Undecided, or whether they read newspapers. All I see with Google is that Pew Research finds these Undecideds particularly likely not to vote at all: of them stay home on Election Day.

D-leaning Independents often have views just as strong as D's on many issues (or stronger views than "weak D's").
Hmmm. Maybe appealing to the "base" is the proper strategy, but just with a slightly broader definition of "base."
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Old 12-17-2019, 02:31 AM
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OK, gotcha, I see now.

Yeah I have always been skeptical of the "independent" label. I suspect only a tiny minority are truly nonpartisan, and the majority are just R's and D's who don't want the baggage that comes with the R or D label, especially if they live in hostile territory.
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Old 12-17-2019, 08:30 AM
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OK, gotcha, I see now.

Yeah I have always been skeptical of the "independent" label. I suspect only a tiny minority are truly nonpartisan, and the majority are just R's and D's who don't want the baggage that comes with the R or D label, especially if they live in hostile territory.
It's not that I consider myself so ardently non-partisan. Rather, I have strong convictions on both sides the ideological divide. So I'd have major conflicts with declaring myself either R or D. And it's gotten worse as both parties have pulled further to their extremes.
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Old 12-17-2019, 06:31 PM
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Republicans view democrats as motivated by the desire for power and the willingness to say and spend whatever it takes regardless of the strategic ramifications in order to get it.
That's interesting. Because that looks to me like the way many Democrats view the current and recent behavior of Republicans.[ETA: of the Republican Party, not necessarily of all the members of it.]

Last edited by thorny locust; 12-17-2019 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:11 PM
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So conservatives and Republicans are stupid, hateful, angry and evil while democrats have the well being of all mankind at heart?

Bubble.
Whats your perspective on it.

Republicans do support authoritarianism more than democrats.

Republicans support social hierarchies more than democrats.

Republicans are the ones pushing voter suppression and gerrymandering more than democrats.

I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong. I'm wrong about a lot of things. But the base of the 2 parties do seem to fall into these 2 categories.

High authoritarians who value social hierarchies and do not value liberal democracy.

Low authoritarians who reject social hierarchies and value liberal democracy.

This study of the 5 traits of Trump voters finds all 5 are related either to authoritarianism or social hierarchies.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...d-5-key-traits

https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/750
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:41 PM
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I think this comment pretty well illustrates one of the points made in this thread, though - that many Democrats/liberals operate from a baseline assumption/attitude that "Our values are (or ought to be) universal or considered blatant common sense, and if some voters don't see things the way we do, that means something must be wrong with them."
If somebody is basing their decision of who should be President on who has the best hair, then you're right, I think there's something wrong with that person. And I don't feel I'm the one that should be changing my ways so I'm more accepting of his point of view.

His point of view is dumb. And it shouldn't be given equal status with intelligent points of view.
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Old 12-18-2019, 07:42 AM
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Both parties are really identity parties now. Even within the Democratic primary you're seeing more overlap between Warren and Harris and Warren and Buttigieg than Warren and Sanders. It's also why all elections are close now. When I was a kid it wall all landslides, because about 20% of the electorate were swing voters. Now it might be 5%. Still enough to decide elections, but a small enough number that ideologues think they can motivate enough base voting to overcome losing swing voters. It is true that you can motivate your base enough to do that, but not with ideology: with identity. Bush beat Kerry by bringing out evangelicals, not ideological conservatives, and Obama got young and minority voters out, not ideological progressives.

I remember a time when one candidate could lead the other by double digits in September and it wasn't anywhere near over.

Last edited by adaher; 12-18-2019 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 12-18-2019, 12:11 PM
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I have always been skeptical of the "independent" label. I suspect only a tiny minority are truly nonpartisan, and the majority are just R's and D's who don't want the baggage that comes with the R or D label, especially if they live in hostile territory.
I suspect that a significant percentage of independents are royally ticked off at both parties; though quite possibly for different reasons. And what those reasons are most likely varies from one independent to another.
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Old 01-06-2020, 03:55 AM
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If somebody is basing their decision of who should be President on who has the best hair, then you're right, I think there's something wrong with that person. And I don't feel I'm the one that should be changing my ways so I'm more accepting of his point of view.
Welcome to America, Little Nemo! Those who listened to the Kennedy-Nixon debate on radio thought Nixon was the clear winner. Those who watched on TV thought Kennedy was the clear winner. Kennedy had the better hair.

Every.Single Presidential election in the past 70 years has been won by the more charismatic candidate. (Trump may seem like a counterexample, but how could such a blatant criminal asshole have ever won if he didn't "inspire devotion"?) "Definition of charismatic: exercising a compelling charm which inspires devotion in others."
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Old 01-06-2020, 08:50 AM
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OK, gotcha, I see now.

Yeah I have always been skeptical of the "independent" label. I suspect only a tiny minority are truly nonpartisan, and the majority are just R's and D's who don't want the baggage that comes with the R or D label, especially if they live in hostile territory.
Well, yes, I'd agree that a large part of the "independent" demographic is actually quite clearly liberal or conservative personally, but just would rather not be presumed to endorse the whole-package platform as the parties are right now.

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Welcome to America, Little Nemo! Those who listened to the Kennedy-Nixon debate on radio thought Nixon was the clear winner. Those who watched on TV thought Kennedy was the clear winner. Kennedy had the better hair.

Every.Single Presidential election in the past 70 years has been won by the more charismatic candidate. (Trump may seem like a counterexample, but how could such a blatant criminal asshole have ever won if he didn't "inspire devotion"?)
And brace for to those who will indignantly demand that you take that back... OK, so what about "every election of the past 70 years has been won by the greater ratings-/click-draw candidate"... (Bush 41 vs. Dukakis was quite agonizing)
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Old 01-06-2020, 12:46 PM
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I think that we all want the same thing,happiness and security for ourselves and our families.

The Republicans try to convince their constituency that they don’t have this because it’s been stolen from them. You don’t have jobs because the immigrants stole them. You lost your voice because the Democrats stole it. They are watching your every move and if you express a dissenting opinion, you will be shouted down or shamed on social media. The ownership of your farm and land has been stolen from you by big government. Your culture and lifestyle used to be dominant, and that dominance has been stolen from you by minorities.

This constituency has been mobilized to fight back. This is what Donald Trump recognized, amplified and tapped into.

The Democrats want everyone, liberal and conservative alike, to have happiness and security. All those things you might not have - jobs, housing, food security, access to affordable health care - they want to give it to you. If you can’t afford housing they’ll see that you have a place to live. They’ll give you free healthcare and see that you have food on the table. And they don’t understand that this level of dependency chafes the hell out conservatives, especially the rugged individualists that make their living off the land, by farming and ranching. They see government policy after policy, environmental controls, price controls, tax policy, that put their interests last and prevented them from making a “honest” living, then try to make up for it by giving them welfare. They liken this governmental control over every aspect of their life to slavery.

The Democrats do not understand the level of anger that conservative politicians have whipped up with their mostly false narratives, but narratives that contain just enough of a grain of truth to work. So they blame it on racism and accuse them of voting against their self interests, because they don’t understand the nuances of their self-interest. And they whip up indignation in their supporters to counter the hate the Republicans whip up.

And I don’t think that we are as far apart as we think, we are the victims of artificially enhanced factionism. The media constantly mines for the most extreme example of right wing hate and left wing indignation and righteousness and presents them as the norm.

The real power in this country is held unambiguously by large corporate and wealthy private interests. They loot our retirement accounts. They take our tax dollars for their own research and development, then sell the results back to us. They addict us to drugs then sell us the cure. They work in concert with energy companies that maintain their own foreign policy. Their goal is to keep us constantly at each other’s throats, so we don’t realize our commonalities and turn against them. Kind of like our Middle East policy. And it works.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 01-06-2020 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 01-08-2020, 04:18 PM
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Whats your perspective on it.

Republicans do support authoritarianism more than democrats.

Republicans support social hierarchies more than democrats.

Republicans are the ones pushing voter suppression and gerrymandering more than democrats.

I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong. I'm wrong about a lot of things. But the base of the 2 parties do seem to fall into these 2 categories.

High authoritarians who value social hierarchies and do not value liberal democracy.

Low authoritarians who reject social hierarchies and value liberal democracy.

This study of the 5 traits of Trump voters finds all 5 are related either to authoritarianism or social hierarchies.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...d-5-key-traits

https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/750
So stupid hateful angry and evil?
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Old 01-09-2020, 02:32 AM
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How about arguing the facts instead of the strawman?
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:42 AM
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My sense is that Democrats tend to push economic and social issues that favor poor and working people and that when unemployment is high the Dems tend to do better locally and nationally. Republicans go more for traditional values, non-interference in social and economic issues, advocating for morality in a broad sense, such as saying "racial discrimination is wrong" rather than, as Dems are increasing prone to, "we're the party of diversity". Yet for all that there are increasing numbers of people of color voting Republican, while the so-called (as of the 2016 presidential election) "red states" are, most of them, ancestrally Democratic (Michigan, for instance). It's my guess that the states that have been traditionally Democratic will revert sooner or later (likely sooner) to their roots in left of center politics. The election of Donald Trump is an aberration, and I say this non-judgmentally, just as a matter of fact. I didn't think it was possible for a candidate who had either never held elected office or served as a high ranking military figure in wartime could win a presidential election, and I was wrong. Now that Trumpis in I think he has a chance for re-election. Yes, I'm getting rather OT here but I'm just offering my own view of national politics.
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Old 01-09-2020, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
So stupid hateful angry and evil?
"Evil" is debatable but "stupid, angry and hateful" is a realistic description of the main right-wing media sources these days. Spend a day watching FoxNews (or listening to its radio station) and you'll hear a lot of stupid, angry, hateful and fundamentally dishonest things. Spend a day listening to MSNBC and you'll get a lot less of that (and listen to NPR and you'll get very little).

Furthermore, the assessment that Republicans want to "hurt the right people" (to paraphrase an actual Trump supporter) also has an empirical basis; it's not pure partisan smear tactics. Removal of access to healthcare insurance to millions of the most vulnerable people in society; diverting funds from public schools into the pockets of the wealthy; literally taking immigrant children from their parents, "losing" them in the system and offering them for adoption to American families (while making a healthy profit); decimating affordable women's health services; removing hundreds of thousands of legitimate voters from the rolls and engaging in all sorts of other shenanigans to undermine the democratic process; removing environmental regulations that keep toxins out of the air and water - these are just the tip of the iceberg. The number of GOP policies that don't actively harm large numbers of non-wealthy people are disturbingly small.

So if you don't like the characterization of the modern GOP as "stupid, hateful, angry and evil", perhaps you might come out of your own bubble, stop blaming the messenger and consider whether there is some truth to it.

I mean, the Democrats are an entirely different type of clusterfuck but they at least mean well.
  #38  
Old 01-11-2020, 04:56 PM
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I think this comment pretty well illustrates one of the points made in this thread, though - that many Democrats/liberals operate from a baseline assumption/attitude that "Our values are (or ought to be) universal or considered blatant common sense, and if some voters don't see things the way we do, that means something must be wrong with them."
Especially when your elitist candidate (who didn't even campaign in some Midwest states) calls Trump voters " deplorables"! So much for reaching out to working class and farmers.
  #39  
Old 01-11-2020, 04:59 PM
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Whats your perspective on it.

Republicans do support authoritarianism more than democrats.

Republicans support social hierarchies more than democrats.

Republicans are the ones pushing voter suppression and gerrymandering more than democrats.

I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong. I'm wrong about a lot of things. But the base of the 2 parties do seem to fall into these 2 categories.

High authoritarians who value social hierarchies and do not value liberal democracy.

Low authoritarians who reject social hierarchies and value liberal democracy.

This study of the 5 traits of Trump voters finds all 5 are related either to authoritarianism or social hierarchies.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...d-5-key-traits

https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/750
have you forgotten that uber-liberal FDR wanted to pack/enlarge SCOTUS (imagine if Trump tried that!), or his attempt to muzzle newspapers
  #40  
Old 01-11-2020, 08:50 PM
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have you forgotten that uber-liberal FDR wanted to pack/enlarge SCOTUS (imagine if Trump tried that!), or his attempt to muzzle newspapers
FDR basically kept America capitalist by reducing the stress of the Depression on everyone but the millionaires. It might be a good idea for right-wingers to remember how heads start to roll when food becomes scarce or unavailable (the People vs Louis Seizième).
  #41  
Old 01-11-2020, 11:28 PM
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Especially when your elitist candidate (who didn't even campaign in some Midwest states) calls Trump voters " deplorables"! So much for reaching out to working class and farmers.
Actually, she said that half of his voters were deplorables. We strive for accuracy, here. Please do try to keep up.
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  #42  
Old 01-12-2020, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
"I think this comment pretty well illustrates one of the points made in this thread, though - that many Democrats/liberals operate from a baseline assumption/attitude that "Our values are (or ought to be) universal or considered blatant common sense, and if some voters don't see things the way we do, that means something must be wrong with them."
Well yes, but it's an individual judgement - as a Dem I believe there is a set of desirable attributes that apply to all Presidential candidates. Among them are:

Sufficient education to meet the needs of the office

Experience in organizational management

A sophisticated demeanor

Dedicated to the principles defined by the preamble of our Constitution


Call me a snob, but I'd consider those who disagree with more than one item to be politically challenged.
  #43  
Old 01-12-2020, 05:08 PM
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The Democratic assumption is that voters are motivated primarily by policies - that voters value substance over style, head over heart, and logic over feelings.
I hear Republicans say the same thing, but with the word "Republican" replacing "Democrat".

Nancy Pelosi revealed her assumptions about voters as quoted here:
https://www.newsweek.com/pelosi-alex...strict-1397640

One assumption I interpret her making is that the Democrats can completely take for granted the votes of certain districts, like hers and AOC's:
Quote:
"When we won this election, it wasn't in districts like mine or Alexandria's. And she's a wonderful member of Congress, I think all of our colleagues will attest," Pelosi, a California Democrat, told an audience Monday night at a London School of Economics event during a U.K. visit.

"But those are districts that are solidly Democratic. This glass of water would win with a D next to its name in those districts," she said, picking up the water at her table.
For instance, Pelosi's district has long had a problem with human poop on the streets, and in light of her comments, I guess it is because she thinks she can afford to stay "glass of water" on it:
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/...roblem/566621/

She also seems to me to be saying that she thinks voters won't notice she is hiding ideas that they would think "menace" them until after the Democrats get enough power:
Quote:
She continued: "What we're saying is to have a message that appeals to people that does not menace them, that really does address their concerns. When we win, and we have the White House, and we have that, then we can expand our exuberances to some other things.
Overall, I get the impression she sees voters as either "sure supporters" she doesn't need to do anything for, or people she needs to fool long enough to get power.
  #44  
Old 01-12-2020, 06:36 PM
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Dedicated to the principles defined by the preamble of our Constitution
This is a nit, but I don't see any principles at all in the preamble. It sets out why the document was created and its purpose. I mean, "welfare should be promoted, liberty should be secured, defense should be provided, the Union should be more perfect" are principles of a sort, I guess? Not particularly high minded, unlike the Declaration of Independence.

Last edited by squeegee; 01-12-2020 at 06:37 PM.
  #45  
Old 01-12-2020, 10:12 PM
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some religious voters will freely admit Trump has done a lot of bad stuff but they don't care as long as he promotes what they want like right wing judges.
To me, that's basically a main reason why the right keeps winning elections. They don't demand and could care less about candidate purity. They just want to win.


The left more often than not, tears itself apart chasing purity

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  #46  
Old 01-13-2020, 10:15 AM
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I agree - we need to abandon puritanism and go for bling, like Roque de la Fuente Guerra (except he switched to Republican so he could oppose Trump)
  #47  
Old 01-13-2020, 11:37 AM
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Squeegee,

The DOI is in the passive voice - "When in the course.....".

The Preamble establishes the goals of our system of law in the active voice - "In order to....."

The Preamble of the Constitution is the mission statement of the US.
  #48  
Old 01-14-2020, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Crane View Post
Squeegee,

The DOI is in the passive voice - "When in the course.....".

The Preamble establishes the goals of our system of law in the active voice - "In order to....."

The Preamble of the Constitution is the mission statement of the US.
Declaration of Independence: "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." That's a principle.

I'm struggling to find one in the Constitution, which seems like a purely mechanical document: here's how the machinery of government works.

Anyway: end hijack.
  #49  
Old 01-14-2020, 09:36 AM
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That's because it's in the preamble.

Democrats vote for candidates who represent the principles laid out in the preamble of the Constitution.

More perfect union
Liberal Justice
Domestic Tranquility
Military for Defense
Promote the general Welfare
Responsible Citizenship

The calm of the Obama represents the Democratic ideal.

Republicans vote for candidates who represent nationalist/religious views.

States Rights
Limited Justice
Law and Order
Projected military power
Trickle down economics
Libertarian Citizenship

The chaos of the Trump administration represents the strangeness of the current Republican political ideal.

I agree with the OP that Dems vote for substance. But not against Republican "style". Republican voters respond to candidates who share their own nationlist/religious views. The T shirt slogan "Family, Faith, Friends, Flag, Firearms" sums up the substance of Republican voter assumptions.
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