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  #51  
Old 12-10-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dataguy
Well, that's a metric whose meaning is open to interpretation. But in raw numbers, sure, it may be that the US is the worlds number one immigration target. Again, not sure what that would mean (where are they coming from, what's better here than where they are, etc...)
Seems simple enough to me...it means they are coming here and we are letting come in, and they are doing so more than any other country.

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So far just about everything mentioned as an area of US excellence falls in two categories: Military and GDP, which are surely related.
Perhaps you are being overwhelmed by the number of posts and trying to field them all. You are missing cultural and political. As to Military and GDP being related, no...that's incorrect. You could look at the EU as an example. They are pretty comparable to the US when taken as a whole, and their military is much, much weaker taken in the aggregate. Mostly it's a choice...they choose not to spend as much as we do (mainly because, you know, we are here to do it for them...European social programs are built on American military strength since we do that little thing for them and put teeth into the alliances we are in). It's not all about spending, though, since China spends roughly half of what we do militarily (not as a percentage of GDP, which they actually spend more), but they don't have half as capable a military.

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hese seem to be the only two dimensions that matter here: We have the most guns and we have the most money.
Again, giving you the benefit of the doubt, you've missed other aspects that people have tried to tell you. We have the greatest economy, we have the largest, most capable military, and culturally we are dominant as well. Politically, we have the greatest influence because of the convergence of all of these (and a few other) factors, which is why we are the world leader.
  #52  
Old 12-10-2013, 03:28 PM
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  #53  
Old 12-10-2013, 03:28 PM
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Well, that's a metric whose meaning is open to interpretation. But in raw numbers, sure, it may be that the US is the worlds number one immigration target. Again, not sure what that would mean (where are they coming from, what's better here than where they are, etc...)

So far just about everything mentioned as an area of US excellence falls in two categories: Military and GDP, which are surely related.

These seem to be the only two dimensions that matter here: We have the most guns and we have the most money.
Well, you're a self-named dataguy. We provided you data. I can't help it if the data doesn't back up your assertions.
  #54  
Old 12-10-2013, 03:31 PM
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None of this means that the US is the best place to live, or that our culture is the greatest (except the the extent that it's so pervasive world wide compared to other countries), or that we walk on water and have no problems or issues or always do the right thing. There are probably a lot of countries that have better health care, that have better programs for the poor or aging, that have better social programs or better quality of life or whatever other cherry picked stat you want to hang things on. None of them have anything to do with the US being a world leader though, and none of them have squat to do with the US supposedly being a banana republic or declining.
I think this pretty much sums things up. All of these "quality of life" things are totally irrelevant. Nothing to be gained by demonstrating leadership in any of those areas, huh?

As for American "culture" being dominant, this seems to mean American "products" (such as movies). This is not what I think of when I use the term culture, and when I think of the characteristics of American culture, it mostly comes down to excessive material consumption.

Whereas, when I think of French culture, I think of food and art. When I think of German culture I think of finely engineered machines. Just as examples. And I consider them both leaders in that aspect of their culture--world leaders.
  #55  
Old 12-10-2013, 03:33 PM
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Do any of those qualify for Banana Republic status?
The Philippines, Indonesia and Columbia all have Banana Republic stores.

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Originally Posted by dataguy
Whereas, when I think of French culture, I think of food and art. When I think of German culture I think of finely engineered machines. Just as examples. And I consider them both leaders in that aspect of their culture--world leaders.
Funny, when I think of French culture, I think of ugly cars and snooty waiters. When I think of German culture, my brain goes into vapor lock like Norman's did on Star Trek. So your opinions are just that...your opinions. There is very little relationship between them and objective fact.

Last edited by silenus; 12-10-2013 at 03:36 PM.
  #56  
Old 12-10-2013, 03:34 PM
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Well, you're a self-named dataguy. We provided you data. I can't help it if the data doesn't back up your assertions.
And what is this assertion you seem to think I'm making?
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Old 12-10-2013, 03:38 PM
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I think this pretty much sums things up. All of these "quality of life" things are totally irrelevant. Nothing to be gained by demonstrating leadership in any of those areas, huh?
You're using "world leader" to mean "nation which is leading in category x"; most people use it to mean "nation which is powerful and influencial". This explains part of the disconnect here.

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Originally Posted by dataguy
As for American "culture" being dominant, this seems to mean American "products" (such as movies). This is not what I think of when I use the term culture, and when I think of the characteristics of American culture, it mostly comes down to excessive material consumption.

Whereas, when I think of French culture, I think of food and art. When I think of German culture I think of finely engineered machines. Just as examples. And I consider them both leaders in that aspect of their culture--world leaders.
Perhaps you're too close to American culture, like someone in a tub who stops feeling "wet" after a few minutes, it's too familiar to you to stand out. Maybe consult some non-Americans on what they consider American culture to be?

And one more: the U.S. is number one in foreign aid disbursed.
  #58  
Old 12-10-2013, 03:42 PM
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The Philippines, Indonesia and Columbia all have Banana Republic stores.



Funny, when I think of French culture, I think of ugly cars and snooty waiters. When I think of German culture, my brain goes into vapor lock like Norman's did on Star Trek. So your opinions are just that...your opinions. There is very little relationship between them and objective fact.
So Porsches and BMWs are not considered among the world's best engineered cars? French wine and food is not considered some of the world's finest food? This is all just my opinion? Really?
  #59  
Old 12-10-2013, 03:44 PM
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So Porsches and BMWs are not considered among the world's best engineered cars? French wine and food is not considered some of the world's finest food? This is all just my opinion? Really?
About that wine...
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Old 12-10-2013, 03:45 PM
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And what is this assertion you seem to think I'm making?
That the data shows that the US is becoming a banana republic.

It does not, dataguy.

Last edited by JohnT; 12-10-2013 at 03:46 PM.
  #61  
Old 12-10-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Human Action View Post
You're using "world leader" to mean "nation which is leading in category x"; most people use it to mean "nation which is powerful and influencial". This explains part of the disconnect here.

Perhaps you're too close to American culture, like someone in a tub who stops feeling "wet" after a few minutes, it's too familiar to you to stand out. Maybe consult some non-Americans on what they consider American culture to be?

And one more: the U.S. is number one in foreign aid disbursed.
For the first part, you are absolutely correct. I've been trying to clarify my usage of terms, including "leadership" and "world leader" for pretty much the entire thread--to little effect, it seems.

Also, I'd love for some non-Americans to pipe up about their impressions of what "American culture" is to them.

And the foreign aid figure is fine. I'll add that to the list.
  #62  
Old 12-10-2013, 04:01 PM
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As for American "culture" being dominant, this seems to mean American "products" (such as movies). This is not what I think of when I use the term culture, and when I think of the characteristics of American culture, it mostly comes down to excessive material consumption.

Whereas, when I think of French culture, I think of food and art.
This is an aggressively cynical double standard of what constitutes culture. According to you American products such as movies are not culture. But then when you talk about France how are food and art not as much French products as American movies and therefore not culture?
  #63  
Old 12-10-2013, 04:06 PM
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Dataguy,

What do you want out of this discussion? You ask if the US is or will be a banana republic which is at best hyperbole. It isn't.

Now, what do you want? You seem to be trying to find an indirect way to engage in venting/axe grinding about something. but you're trying to find a clever way of doing it indirectly. Unfortunately, you are not succeeding. Why don't you just do it directly and without hyperbole instead of asking if the US is becoming a banana republic?
Well, as someone else posted, the volume of traffic is much more than I expected, and no, I haven't kept up with every single post.

My interest in the Banana Republic question is more focused on the consequences to the society, as mentioned in the body of the Wikipedia discussion I posted( It typically has stratified social classes, including a large, impoverished working class and a ruling plutocracy that comprises the elites of business, politics, and the military.[1] This politico-economic oligarchy controls the primary-sector productions and thereby exploits the country's economy.)

In this aspect, none of the data presented is convincing, because almost none of it addresses this dimension.

As for the discussion about the US remaining a world leader, in traditional power terms, of course it is. And will probably remains so for awhile, if not forever. But that's not the discussion I've been trying to have. I've been trying to have a discussion about "leadership" not "power". But it seems impossible to separate the two here.

I'm talking about the distinction between a "leader" and a "boss". Like in management textbooks where they distinguish between formal authority and leadership. Maybe we can have that discussion in another thread.
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Old 12-10-2013, 04:16 PM
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I've been trying to have a discussion about "leadership" not "power". But it seems impossible to separate the two here.
Can you give any examples in history in which those were distinguishable? If not, maybe you need to rethink your stance that they are separate.
  #65  
Old 12-10-2013, 04:19 PM
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Or even quantifiable in any meaningful way. How do you measure "leadership" if you are going to ignore statistics and data that show that an entity has the ability to exert such?

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Old 12-10-2013, 05:10 PM
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dataguy, the main problem here is that you're locked into thinking about the US in a way that depends on the fallacy of composition. For example: let's say that I think that the BMW 3 series is the best overall car around. Even if that is true, it does not mean that every aspect of the BMW 3 series exceeds all of its competition: BMW radios may not be as good, the tire wear has problems, the insurance costs more than for comparable cars, etc. Even if you add up all those components in ways that the 3 series isn't a perfect car, you have neither proven that the car is headed for the quality of a Yugo, nor have you disproved that it is all around the best car available.

Same thing with, say, athletes. A lot of people think that Willie Mays was the best baseball player, or that Tiger Woods is the best golfer ever. One can look at a whole raft of statistics and find evidence that other athletes are better that they are/were: Babe Ruth hit more homers, Bubba Watson drives the ball further, Rickey Henderson stole more bases, Phil Mickelson has a better short game, etc. However, if you look at the totality of all the statistics, there's no doubt that Willie Mays and Tiger Woods are the top one or two all time athletes in their sports.

You're making a similar error with the United States. With 200 nations in the world, the United States does not have to have the biggest supercomputer, the best math scores, the sweetest honey, and the fastest cars in order to still rank overall very highly.

Let's use another comparison: immediately after WW2, the United States was responsible for something like half of the world's economic product. Yes, something around 50% of the world's economic activity was based in the US. In the years that followed, the US share of world GDP dropped significantly. Does this mean the US was getting worse? No! In fact, the US economy got even stronger as its share of world economic production lessened. The lesson to be learned is, see the forest for the trees.

Last edited by Ravenman; 12-10-2013 at 05:10 PM.
  #67  
Old 12-10-2013, 05:31 PM
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I think this pretty much sums things up. All of these "quality of life" things are totally irrelevant. Nothing to be gained by demonstrating leadership in any of those areas, huh?
Nothing gained does not equal whether we do or don't hold a world leadership position. They basically ARE irrelevant to whether or not the US is either a banana republic OR whether the US is or isn't a or the world leader. Because, say, Sweden has the best quality of life (no idea if they do or don't, just pulled that out of my ass) does not make Sweden a world leader.

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As for American "culture" being dominant, this seems to mean American "products" (such as movies). This is not what I think of when I use the term culture, and when I think of the characteristics of American culture, it mostly comes down to excessive material consumption.
Now what YOU think of as culture does not equate to what actually is or isn't culture wrt penetration in the rest of the world. As another poster said up thread, you don't see it because you are most likely an American. Go to another country and take a look around. You see examples of US culture everywhere, if you take the blinders off and simply look. Want to know my own wtf moment? I was in India doing some telco work (and this was over 10 years ago, mind) and a kid was humming the tune to a US commercial for a product they didn't even HAVE in India at the time. US products are part of US culture, though it goes deeper than that. You have to understand the why. Why, for instance, are there over 200 KFC restaurants in India? Why is there a freaking Taco Bell in China, of all places? Why is McDonald's a household name throughout the world...even in countries that are predominantly vegetarian? Why do US movies dominate even on the world market? Why does anyone outside of America give a flying fuck who the US President is, or even who he is? Why do they care about scandals in the US, or news in the US, or sports in the US (another disconnect....seeing a Dallas Cowboys tee shirt on a kid in Hong Kong...a kid who probably didn't even know the rules or maybe ever seen a game of US Football)? There are US cultural examples in nearly every country out there, and you can usually find such examples in even remote parts of the world.

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Whereas, when I think of French culture, I think of food and art. When I think of German culture I think of finely engineered machines. Just as examples. And I consider them both leaders in that aspect of their culture--world leaders.
But you don't see examples of French or German culture as predominantly throughout the world as you do of US. Certainly you see some French cultural examples in their former colonies, but it's not everywhere, much as it galls () the French. Same with German. Same with every other country. YOU might consider them leaders, and to a certain extent they are (i.e. they have some penetration world wide), but they aren't THE leader...we are. You might not like US culture (or, most likely, you don't even recognize it when you see it because you are so incorporated into it that it's invisible to you), but the fact is it's one of the most striking examples of how dominant we are as a country during this time period. Eventually that will change and we will lose that dominance...probably in the lifetimes of some on this board. But today, right now, we are the dominant nation on this planet in every metric that's meaningful for such things. Economic, cultural, militarily, politically.
  #68  
Old 12-10-2013, 05:49 PM
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The U.S. is number one in new books published per year.
Apropos of nothing much at all, I'm surprised that here in the UK we managed 149,000 new titles in 2011. I wonder what the breakdown by category for that is? (It's also about 3 times the amount that the US managed, adjusted for population. )
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:36 PM
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You could consider technological leadership, where we once reigned supreme. Now, the fastest supercomputer is produced in
China
.
47% of the total processing power on the TOP500 list comes from American computers. 19% is Chinese. Also, the top Chinese supercomputer uses largely American processing units, which are the real high technology in supercomputers.
  #70  
Old 12-10-2013, 06:37 PM
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Apropos of nothing much at all, I'm surprised that here in the UK we managed 149,000 new titles in 2011. I wonder what the breakdown by category for that is? (It's also about 3 times the amount that the US managed, adjusted for population. )
Well, that's different. You're British, you have nothing better to do. We have sex.
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Old 12-11-2013, 12:40 AM
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Is the US becoming a banana republic?


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dataguy, the juxtaposition of your post and JohnT's post is ironic. Your argument fails because you fail to prove your point that the U.S. was ever number one in the world in any of these measures. Nor do you ever give any time period for this supposed decline so that we can go back and test the theory.
There is one area where the US clearly had a considerable leadership role following WWII, and has lost it subsequently: its influence on constitutional developments in other countries.

Following WWII, the US Constitution served as an important role model for new countries in the post-colonial era, and for existing countries which were developing new constitutional structures.

That trend continued throughout the 1960s and 1970s, but reversed sharply in the 1980s and 1990s. The constitutions of the world's democracies are now less similar to the US model than they were at the end of WWII.

The country that has replaced the influential role of the US as the constitutional model, primarily among the common law countries, and to some extent other countries?

Canada - to the point that Canada has been referred to as the "new constitutional superpower."

See:

NY Times: "We the People" Loses Appeal With People around the World"

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/02/07...ref=adamliptak

Wall Street Journal blogs: "Canada: Constitutional Superpower?"

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/BL-LB-41891

Law & Veersteg, "The Declining Influence of the United States Constitution" (2012) 87 NYULR 762

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=1923556
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Last edited by Northern Piper; 12-11-2013 at 12:41 AM.
  #72  
Old 12-11-2013, 01:58 AM
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The U.S. is more of a banana democracy.
  #73  
Old 12-11-2013, 06:32 AM
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It's unfortunate that the Alternet article insisted on putting the nonsensical "Banana Republic" into its title. It's also unfortunate that OP chose to copy that silly claim into his OP.

But especially unfortunate is that Dopers continue their practice of attacking a stupid "headline" so they can ignore the substance of an article. Yes, America is still #1 in many ways; and No, it's obviously not a "banana republic." But in some important ways, it has fallen behind the rest of the developed world. Where once it was a shining beacon, it is increasingly becoming a pariah and a laughingstock.

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Originally Posted by Baron Greenback View Post
Apropos of nothing much at all, I'm surprised that here in the UK we managed 149,000 new titles in 2011. I wonder what the breakdown by category for that is? (It's also about 3 times the amount that the US managed, adjusted for population. )
Nitpick: I assume "new titles" includes books which originated in other countries, but which have UK editions. If so, a raw per capita figure would NOT be a proper basis for comparison.
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Old 12-11-2013, 07:29 AM
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Is the US becoming a banana republic?
More like a 'burger republic'.
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Old 12-11-2013, 08:14 AM
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I thought the franchise in the US has been gradually extended beyond burghers?
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:26 AM
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It's unfortunate that the Alternet article insisted on putting the nonsensical "Banana Republic" into its title. It's also unfortunate that OP chose to copy that silly claim into his OP.

But especially unfortunate is that Dopers continue their practice of attacking a stupid "headline" so they can ignore the substance of an article. Yes, America is still #1 in many ways; and No, it's obviously not a "banana republic." But in some important ways, it has fallen behind the rest of the developed world.
Which ways are those?


Quote:
Where once it was a shining beacon, it is increasingly becoming a pariah and a laughingstock.
I'd be interested in seeing how you support that claim, partly because it looks like the sort of claim that can't actually be validated.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:35 AM
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Which ways are those?
The article contained some flawed claims but .... Did you even condescend to read it?

Anyway, I'll answer your question here ... if/when you answer my question to you in "Republicans are taking away my unemployment for my own good."
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:40 AM
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The article contained some flawed claims but .... Did you even condescend to read it?

Anyway, I'll answer your question here ... if/when you answer my question to you in "Republicans are taking away my unemployment for my own good."
I doubt I'm the only person interested in having you substantiate your claims. If not, then I guess I'll just have to suffer through not knowing.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:41 AM
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There is one area where the US clearly had a considerable leadership role following WWII, and has lost it subsequently: its influence on constitutional developments in other countries.
Interestingly, the U.S. still has this influence, it just puts its weight behind Constitutions other than our own:

Quote:
Almost nobody uses the U.S. Constitution as a model—not even Americans. When 24 military officers and civilians were given a single week to craft a constitution for occupied Japan in 1946, they turned to England. The Westminster-style parliament they installed in Tokyo, like its British forebear, has two houses. But unlike Congress, one is clearly more powerful than the other and can override the less powerful one during an impasse.

The story was largely the same in defeated Nazi Germany, and more recently in Iraq and Afghanistan, which all emerged from American occupation with constitutions that look little like the one Madison and the other framers wrote. They have the same democratic values, sure, but different ways of realizing them.
Ruth Bader Ginsburg advised the people of Egypt:

Quote:
Asked by the English-speaking interviewer whether she thought Egypt should use the Constitutions of other countries as a model, Ginsburg said Egyptians should be “aided by all Constitution-writing that has gone on since the end of World War II.”

“I would not look to the U.S. Constitution, if I were drafting a Constitution in the year 2012. I might look at the Constitution of South Africa,” says Ginsburg, whom President Clinton nominated to the court in 1993. “That was a deliberate attempt to have a fundamental instrument of government that embraced basic human rights, had an independent judiciary. … It really is, I think, a great piece of work that was done. Much more recent than the U.S. Constitution.”
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:42 AM
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The article makes some good points but is mostly full of shit.
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IKEA has set up a factory in Virginia. Volkswagen has set up in Tennessee, and the likes of Hyundai, KIA, BMW, Honda, and Toyota have all set up in the South to take advantage of the world’s latest cheap labor source.
Foreign automakers aren't setting up factories in the US to take advantage of our cheap labor. They're setting them up here to avoid import restrictions and tariffs and because we're their biggest market. It costs Hyundai less to build a car in the US than it does in South Korea, but it costs twice as much for them to build here than in Brazil or China.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
It's unfortunate that the Alternet article insisted on putting the nonsensical "Banana Republic" into its title. It's also unfortunate that OP chose to copy that silly claim into his OP.

But especially unfortunate is that Dopers continue their practice of attacking a stupid "headline" so they can ignore the substance of an article. Yes, America is still #1 in many ways; and No, it's obviously not a "banana republic." But in some important ways, it has fallen behind the rest of the developed world. Where once it was a shining beacon, it is increasingly becoming a pariah and a laughingstock.



Nitpick: I assume "new titles" includes books which originated in other countries, but which have UK editions. If so, a raw per capita figure would NOT be a proper basis for comparison.
I read the article, noted the lack of citations and a number of claims in which it is factually incorrect, and went on with the discussion. What else do you want?

As a person who has lived in "the south" his entire life, the claim that it's a "third world banana republic" is asinine. Why the need to delve further into the screed that was linked in the OP if it's going to make idiotic claims such as that?

Then there's this:

Quote:
“Robust public investment had been a key to US prosperity in the previous century. It was then considered a basic part of the social contract as well as of Economics 101. As just about everyone knew in those days, citizens paid taxes to fund worthy initiatives that the private sector wouldn’t adequately or efficiently supply. Roadways and scientific research were examples. In the post–World War II years, the country invested great sums of money in its interstate highways and what were widely considered the best education systems in the world, while research in well-funded government labs led to inventions like the Internet. The resulting world-class infrastructure, educated workforce, and technological revolution fed a robust private sector.”
In the 19th century, robust private investment turned the US from an agrarian state to the worlds largest industrial power in a 75-year period. That was basic Economics 101. The argument that is being made is being supported by citations that were true for just the post-war period, completely ignoring the larger fact that American industrial and infrastructure improvements are mostly privately funded.

The US still invests "great sums of money in its interstate highways" and its "education systems", but, again, the US has NEVER scored in the higher percentiles in international education comparisons, so the depiction of the US as having the "best education system" in the world at one point in the past is, again, not supported by any evidence.

I could go on, and the author does get some facts right, but it's not worth picking over.

Last edited by JohnT; 12-11-2013 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 09:55 AM
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The article contained some flawed claims but .... Did you even condescend to read it?

Anyway, I'll answer your question here ... if/when you answer my question to you in "Republicans are taking away my unemployment for my own good."
I read it. It was a load of hyperbolic horseshit, an attempt to use faulty statistics to make support the writers already predefined position. If you want to decry the fact that 'dopers have focused on the banana republic aspect then perhaps YOU should read the article yourself, since it's the recurring theme of the thing. Not only are we a banana republic, but we are apparently a BROKEN banana republic to boot.

Why should anyone take seriously an article full of hogsheads of hyperbolic horseshit (without even the clever use of alliteration ). Even so, if YOU actually read the thread, you will see that most of the major points of the article have been addressed by various 'dopers in this thread. Basically, the author of that article attempts a verbal shell game, claiming that we are a broken banana republic because of this (cherry picked and unsupported) stat or that one, most of which either are a distortion, and exaggeration or something that the US NEVER was a world leader in. The bottom line, previously addressed, is that the US doesn't have to be at the top of ever category, and the very nature of our country is going to preclude us EVER being at the top of every one of the authors pet cherry picked categories of greatness because of how diverse we are, with people from literally every nation on earth...hundreds of millions of them. Trying an apples to aardvarks comparison between the US and small, mainly ethnically/culturally/socially and from a religious aspect homogenous is ridiculous if you are looking at the stats this guy is attempting to use to 'prove' we are a 'broken banana republic'. We don't have high speed rail and that's a factor in our broken-ness and banana republic-esque quality?

Basically, if you feel there is some worth in the article it's on you to do what the OP didn't do...cut and paste out what you think is relevant and show why you think it is. Trying to say that people didn't read the article and are focused mainly on the OPs title isn't really making your case.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:15 AM
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Where once it was a shining beacon, it is increasingly becoming a pariah and a laughingstock.
Pariah? Laughingstock?
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:22 AM
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Nice link, Ravenman.

I clicked on the "World's leading superpower" link and was surprised to find out that 55% of the people think that Spain is going to supplant the US as the dominant superpower... until I realized that I was reading the chart incorrectly.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:36 AM
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Interesting that we have such low regard in Turkey. I've been there and that wasn't the impression I got of the folks there, who seemed to like Americans. Of course this was decades ago, so maybe the attitudes have shifted since the 2 Gulf Wars and the invasion of Afghanistan? The other interesting one I thought was Germany...I thought that after the cold war was over attitudes had shifted, but looks like we rank the same there as with the Venezuela and just about Russia (never big fans of the US). I don't see the UK on that list either, which is odd.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:46 AM
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Interesting that we have such low regard in Turkey. I've been there and that wasn't the impression I got of the folks there, who seemed to like Americans. Of course this was decades ago, so maybe the attitudes have shifted since the 2 Gulf Wars and the invasion of Afghanistan? The other interesting one I thought was Germany...I thought that after the cold war was over attitudes had shifted, but looks like we rank the same there as with the Venezuela and just about Russia (never big fans of the US). I don't see the UK on that list either, which is odd.
The UK is listed as "Britain", 58% favorable.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:47 AM
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Interesting that we have such low regard in Turkey. I've been there and that wasn't the impression I got of the folks there, who seemed to like Americans.
The Iraq war in particular totally tanked Turks' approval of the US. We indeed used to be very popular in Turkey. No more.

Last edited by Ravenman; 12-11-2013 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:48 AM
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I don't see the UK on that list either, which is odd.
Britain. 58%.

Quote:
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The Iraq war in particular totally tanked Turks' approval of the US. The indeed used to be very popular in Turkey. No more.
And yet turkey remains very popular in the US.

Last edited by John Mace; 12-11-2013 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:50 AM
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Yeah, I saw that when I was clicking through the list of individual countries and viewing it that way. I guess we are hitting a low point with our British brethren and sistren atm. Looking at this and comparing it with China's favor-ability or even the EU, however, is educational...especially to folks who think the US is a pariah in the world.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:52 AM
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The Iraq war in particular totally tanked Turks' approval of the US. The indeed used to be very popular in Turkey. No more.
The data goes back only to 2002, at which time Turkey was 30% favorable. The run-up to war was already in effect then, it's a shame they didn't conduct the poll in '00 or '01 for a better comparison.

Britain was 75% in 2002. Those were the days...
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:53 AM
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Yeah, I saw that when I was clicking through the list of individual countries and viewing it that way. I guess we are hitting a low point with our British brethren and sistren atm. Looking at this and comparing it with China's favor-ability or even the EU, however, is educational...especially to folks who think the US is a pariah in the world.
What's really interesting is the fairly low favorability of the EU with EU member states.

But anyway, who needs data when you can post unsubstantiated slams against the US in GD...

Last edited by John Mace; 12-11-2013 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:56 AM
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What's really interesting is the fairly low favorability of the EU with EU member states.
Makes sense if you think about it in light of recent fiscal developments. It's popular with some of the countries that were helped during their various issues, but less popular with the nations doing the helping. I thought reading the top countries that favor China and looking at the large number below 50% was interesting....I didn't realize that they has such a low favor rating in the US. Woof.

Quote:
But anyway, who needs data when you can post unsubstantiated slams against the US in GD...
Ah, you never need data to slam the US in GD. ;p

Last edited by XT; 12-11-2013 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:57 AM
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What's really interesting is the fairly low favorability of the EU with EU member states.

But anyway, who needs data when you can post unsubstantiated slams against the US in GD...
And how it's trending downward for every single one of them. That spells trouble.

Last edited by Human Action; 12-11-2013 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:01 AM
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And how it's trending downward for every single one of them. That spells trouble.
Might they be headed toward "pariah" or "laughingstock" status?
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:02 AM
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I would definitely say the EU has reached "Banana Republic" status. It seems to be more likely to fall apart than the US.

Last edited by JohnT; 12-11-2013 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:08 AM
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Might they be headed toward "pariah" or "laughingstock" status?
At least in the eyes of Pakistan and Turkey, absolutely.

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Makes sense if you think about it in light of recent fiscal developments. It's popular with some of the countries that were helped during their various issues, but less popular with the nations doing the helping.
It doesn't seem to be: Greece was 33% favorable, Spain 46%. Portugal, Cyprus, and Ireland weren't polled.

Meanwhile, the nation doing most of the helping, Germany, is 60% favorable.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:09 AM
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At least in the eyes of Pakistan and Turkey, absolutely.



It doesn't seem to be: Greece was 33% favorable, Spain 46%. Portugal, Cyprus, and Ireland weren't polled.

Meanwhile, the nation doing most of the helping, Germany, is 60% favorable.
Germany is dropping though...and they (and France) would tend to have higher ratings because, basically, it's their baby and they get the most benefit out of it.

ETA: But you are right...the data doesn't back up my off the cuff assumption.

Last edited by XT; 12-11-2013 at 11:10 AM.
  #98  
Old 12-11-2013, 11:35 AM
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What's really interesting is the fairly low favorability of the EU with EU member states.
I dunno...the US has a pretty low favorability among many of its member states.
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Old 12-11-2013, 12:10 PM
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I dunno...the US has a pretty low favorability among many of its member states.
Hey, what's a little talk of secession between friends!
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Old 12-15-2013, 01:27 AM
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The story was largely the same in defeated Nazi Germany, ... which all emerged from American occupation with constitutions that look little like the one Madison and the other framers wrote.
This article was inaccurate on two points:

1. The German Basic Law wasn't drafted by Americans. It was drafted by Germans in the western sector of occupied Germany, drawing heavily on Germany's pre-Nazi constitutional traditions.

2. Germany wasn't just under American occupation; it was under US-UK-French-Soviet occupation. All four occupying countries had to approve the Basic Law.
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