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Old 11-16-2016, 09:52 AM
Elendil's Heir is offline
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Interesting Harvard Business Review essay on how the Dems have misjudged working-class voters: https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many...-working-class

Last edited by Elendil's Heir; 11-16-2016 at 09:52 AM.
  #202  
Old 11-17-2016, 12:11 AM
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Immigration.

People, even Latinos and especially African Americans, are fed up with the open borders policy. Trump was the only one who was going to change course.
We don't have an open borders policy.
  #203  
Old 11-17-2016, 12:14 AM
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We don't have an open borders policy.
Correct. And I've never heard a live person express any concern about this.
  #204  
Old 11-17-2016, 12:22 AM
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We don't have an open borders policy.
True. But Democrats went on record as opposing deportation of all but criminals, which is a de facto open borders policy, or near enough as to make no difference.

Democrats thought voters wouldn't notice.
  #205  
Old 11-17-2016, 03:22 AM
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Having had a week to think about it, I think the key factor was complacency. Everyone was predicting a Clinton victory so a lot of people who supported her (or opposed Trump) in theory didn't feel any urgency to go out and actually vote for her.
  #206  
Old 11-17-2016, 03:31 AM
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I wonder if the triumphalism about early voting numbers had an effect as well. 2014 also featured early reports of great Democratic turnout, which either wasn't true, or became not true due to Democrats assuming things were in the bag because of the news reports.
  #207  
Old 11-17-2016, 01:00 PM
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Having had a week to think about it, I think the key factor was complacency. Everyone was predicting a Clinton victory so a lot of people who supported her (or opposed Trump) in theory didn't feel any urgency to go out and actually vote for her.
I agree. I believe the actions of the polling organizations and the media outlets suppressed the Democrat vote. Hillary must have the election in the bag. Everyone says so, so why bother voting?
  #208  
Old 11-17-2016, 01:13 PM
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True. But Democrats went on record as opposing deportation of all but criminals, which is a de facto open borders policy, or near enough as to make no difference.

Democrats thought voters wouldn't notice.
No, since you still have to get into the USA, and there is a fence partly, and there is a border patrol, and checks and raids on business that hire illegals, etc.

Not even close to a de facto open borders policy. It does mean if you're smart enough and lucky enough to get here, and keep your nose clean and pay your taxes... then we wont spend the tax dollars to round you up and kick you out.
  #209  
Old 11-19-2016, 09:54 PM
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I've read that Obama said that Hillary should have campaigned more. He said that back when he ran the first time he spent lots of time in Iowa going to every fish fry and county fair he could. Hillary didnt make many appearances and most of those were just to supporters. She instead sent Hollywood celebrities.

Their is an inside story that Bill told her to focus on the economy, which is how he won.

Instead they focused on trying to smear Trump.

Finally I think that since they knew they had the press on their side, they had it in the bag. Woops! they forgot people dont trust the press anymore.
  #210  
Old 11-19-2016, 10:04 PM
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This is the right answer and the Democrats are stupid for not taking the easy opportunity to fold them in. There are slight changes to their platform that they could make that would attract a huge number of moderate Republicans and also solidify moderate Democrats.

A few tweaks to the platform:

1) Recognize that Islam has been radicalized, and assert a willingness to work with Muslims and non-Muslims to ensure that the religion becomes, once again, a religion of peace. Jesus, the Republicans got a huge burst from that Democrats refused to say "radical Islam", which, even as a Democrat it pains me the lengths to which we twist ourselves up to try to pretend Islam is exactly the same as Mormonism with regard to violence at this moment in history.

2) Favor affirmative action as a method to include people of all backgrounds. One does not need to walk away from race based affirmative action, which I believe is actually a good thing for everyone. But, it's also a good thing for everyone to include people from all backgrounds. Poor white kids are sick of being called privileged, which segues into 3...

3) Back off on the labeling. I get what you mean when you say that whites have an inherent privilege. It isn't wrong, entirely. But, when that poor white family hears how privileged they are, it pisses them off, and they're not wrong to be pissed off. They are having a hard time, maybe we should help them out too. Maybe we should have some nuance here, and acknowledge this kid's struggle. Which links in to number 2, because this kid is now not only "privileged" but gets lumped in with all the other actual "privileged" people based solely on the color of his skin; he looks at the kids he has way more in common with socioeconomically who ARE getting a leg up, and is rightfully pissed. He genuinely needs a leg up, and let's be the party to give it to him.

4) Cool your jets with being offended, and lets stop pretending every instance of offense is legitimate. Some are, no doubt. And those should be minimized, and I'll be with you there on those. But we love being offended. We fucking LOVE it. Every time a college holds genuine meetings to address the horrible travesty of someone chalking "Trump 2016" on a campus, you lose voters. Hell, you're losing me, and I'm on your side! Ask yourself if you're actually offended before making an issue. When someone says "all lives matter", you might actually have a lot in common with their opinion, so stop shitting on them reflexively.

5) Drop gun control for now. It's a loser of an issue. It sucks that we can't have a rational debate on this, but this is where we are.

6) Acknowledge that you have reservations on abortion. You aren't removing a tonsil. It's not the same thing, and it's not just a clump of cells. I'm pro-choice, but I cringe when other people on my side are so cavalier about it. Being pro-life is a very understandable position to take, and when we act like we are 100% right on this issue, it makes us look like the chasm between us and them is way bigger than it is (similar to when they pretend that they have no problems with victims of rape and incest being forced to take a baby to term).


Now, yes, in the general scheme of the issues facing America, these are not terribly vital. Compared to global warming and the proper tax structure, these issues are relatively trivial. But, Trump voters, at least the big chunk of non-deplorable ones, said they were scared of Muslims, and sick of PC. They aren't entirely wrong. Let's figure out what we are doing wrong and correct it.

Or, we become the pure, 100% "right" and powerless party. We ask why they vote against their economic self interest, and the answer appears to be that no one votes based on economic issues, but every day issues like these.
Those were all very good.

I would also add to quit shoving the "alternative lifestyle" crap down peoples throats. Heck people have just learned to accept gays and NOW they have to toss in the transgender stuff with the bills now requiring bathrooms to be open to whoever feels like using them.

Also allow free speech like that bakery up in Oregon that was shut down and the owners slapped with a $180,000 fine for not baking a gay wedding cake.
  #211  
Old 11-19-2016, 10:06 PM
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Right. She didn't appeal to enough people. Those people are largely outside of urban areas. They voted for Trump. Many are racist assholes, we aren't going to reach them, and we don't want to. Most aren't. Targeting them is opportunistic. Appeal to them.
Bill did. Remember the Bill and Al bus tour? He stopped in lots of small towns campaigning.

Hillary just stuck to the big cities and had to bring in celebrities.
  #212  
Old 11-19-2016, 10:14 PM
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Yeah in the end Hillary lost an election which she should have won easily. Forget Obama, if she had gotten the same number of votes in PA, MI and WI as Kerry 12 years ago she would be President-elect. And I don't really blame her; she did the best within her limitations. What I am still baffled by is why the Democratic establishment cleared the deck for her when her weaknesses were all too clear and why so many Dems, including many posters here, overestimated her political skills right till election day.
I think that had something to do with the fact that she was a woman and the DNC heads were all women and the ONLY choice was to be a woman. AND they expected the rank and file of democrats would do as told.

They made a mistake in not going to the Bernie Sanders rallies and seeing the tens of thousands of people willing to elect him. Hillary's rallies by comparison were a joke.
  #213  
Old 11-19-2016, 10:46 PM
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Those were all very good.

I would also add to quit shoving the "alternative lifestyle" crap down peoples throats. Heck people have just learned to accept gays and NOW they have to toss in the transgender stuff with the bills now requiring bathrooms to be open to whoever feels like using them.

Also allow free speech like that bakery up in Oregon that was shut down and the owners slapped with a $180,000 fine for not baking a gay wedding cake.
No, sorry. The purpose of transgender bathroom laws is to prevent transgender women from having the shit beat out of them and being raped. I don't think that there is any minority in this country we have failed so much as transgender people. The statistics are staggering and shameful. I could give a shit less whether some people are uncomfortable with the steps necessary to prevent the rape and assault of other people.

I think fiveyearlurker's post was great, though.
  #214  
Old 11-19-2016, 11:53 PM
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No, sorry. The purpose of transgender bathroom laws is to prevent transgender women from having the shit beat out of them and being raped. I don't think that there is any minority in this country we have failed so much as transgender people. The statistics are staggering and shameful. I could give a shit less whether some people are uncomfortable with the steps necessary to prevent the rape and assault of other people.

I think fiveyearlurker's post was great, though.
Not to mention that if the right wing wasn't shoving their bigotry and intolerance down peoples' throats, we wouldn't have had these issues in the first place.
  #215  
Old 11-20-2016, 07:31 AM
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Having had a week to think about it, I think the key factor was complacency. Everyone was predicting a Clinton victory so a lot of people who supported her (or opposed Trump) in theory didn't feel any urgency to go out and actually vote for her.
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I agree. I believe the actions of the polling organizations and the media outlets suppressed the Democrat vote. Hillary must have the election in the bag. Everyone says so, so why bother voting?
This is difficult to confirm. Received wisdom suggests that polling leads are thought to depress turnout on the losing side. I don't have a cite for this but it's something I have picked up over the last few election cycles. Interestingly Nate Silver has said this election is the first time he has got into a disagreement with a political campaign(Hillary's) over not giving her campaign a greater percentage chance of victory. The implication being he was under pressure to increase Hillary's chances of winning on his site. I assume Hillary's campaign believed in the received wisdom that campaigns expecting to lose have their turnout depressed.

It's a bugbear of mines that the polls have themselves become a large part of the election news cycle. I realise they are important, but polls have become another obstacle to talking about actual issues. The polls have become the narrative.

Last edited by Fuzzy_wuzzy; 11-20-2016 at 07:32 AM.
  #216  
Old 11-20-2016, 08:30 AM
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Interesting Harvard Business Review essay on how the Dems have misjudged working-class voters: https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many...-working-class
Yeah I read that a few days back and it may well be the best piece written about this election. I hope every single person connected to the Democratic party reads it.
  #217  
Old 11-20-2016, 09:20 AM
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I think the biggest mistake was making the entire campaign about how awful Trump was, while Trump made his entire campaign about what he was going to do for his voters. Living in FL i saw nothing but an endless parade of Hillary ads that were nothing but the latest Trump idiocy that I had already seen repeated ad naseum in every possible media. Every cent she spent convincing people Trump was the worst person ever was completely wasted, it WORKED but people voted for him anyways. "This is what I'm going to do for you" "This is how the things Trump promises are going to fuck you", that is what the campaign should have been. Nobody needed Hillary to remind us Trump made fun of a cripple or went around grabbing pussies, everyone already fucking knew.
  #218  
Old 11-20-2016, 07:22 PM
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No, sorry. The purpose of transgender bathroom laws is to prevent transgender women from having the shit beat out of them and being raped. I don't think that there is any minority in this country we have failed so much as transgender people. The statistics are staggering and shameful. I could give a shit less whether some people are uncomfortable with the steps necessary to prevent the rape and assault of other people.

I think fiveyearlurker's post was great, though.
Well YOU might not and the people out in Hollywood and behind Hillarys campaign might not, but obviously million of voters did and thats what matters.

If Hillary had gone out and actually TALKED to voters she might have learned that. But instead, she sent celebrities.
  #219  
Old 11-20-2016, 07:24 PM
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I think the biggest mistake was making the entire campaign about how awful Trump was, while Trump made his entire campaign about what he was going to do for his voters. Living in FL i saw nothing but an endless parade of Hillary ads that were nothing but the latest Trump idiocy that I had already seen repeated ad naseum in every possible media. Every cent she spent convincing people Trump was the worst person ever was completely wasted, it WORKED but people voted for him anyways. "This is what I'm going to do for you" "This is how the things Trump promises are going to fuck you", that is what the campaign should have been. Nobody needed Hillary to remind us Trump made fun of a cripple or went around grabbing pussies, everyone already fucking knew.
Right, you will never win by bashing the other guy. You win by showing how you are better and what things you will change or improve.

Which when you get down to it, is alot easier for the person from the outside party. Hillary would have been forced to slam Obama.
  #220  
Old 11-21-2016, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
The purpose of transgender bathroom laws is to prevent transgender women from having the shit beat out of them and being raped. I don't think that there is any minority in this country we have failed so much as transgender people. The statistics are staggering and shameful.
Could you share the statistics of transgender women who got beaten up and raped because they couldn't use the ladies' room?

Regards,
Shodan
  #221  
Old 11-21-2016, 05:10 PM
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Could you share the statistics of transgender women who got beaten up and raped because they couldn't use the ladies' room?

Regards,
Shodan
I was speaking more to quality of life outcomes statistics for trans people in general. I'm sure professional advocates like Una Persson would be more equipped to answer this question specific to the use of public bathrooms. But to give you a general idea of how very much it sucks to be transgender in this country:

"One in two transgender individuals are sexually abused or assaulted at some point in their lives. Some reports estimate that transgender survivors may experience rates of sexual assault up to 66 percent, often coupled with physical assaults or abuse. This indicates that the majority of transgender individuals are living with the aftermath of trauma and the fear of possible repeat victimization."

72 percent of victims of anti-LGBT homicide were transgender women.
67 percent of anti-LGBT homicide victims were trans women of color.

This report indicates that the homicide rate for transgender people doubled in 2015. And this year's transgender murder rate is even higher.

41 percent of transgender people have tried to take their own lives. 41 percent. (Compare to the general population rate of 1.6%)

"Transgender people are “four times as likely to have a household income under $10,000 and twice as likely to be unemployed” as most people in the U.S. Nearly a fifth of transgender people experience homelessness in their lifetimes, and 90 percent report having been discriminated against or harassed while on the job.

Sufficed to say, transgender people have very good reasons to be afraid in this country. They lack even basic protections like being fired or even thrown out of their apartments for being trans.

Transgender women have been using the ladies' restroom for just about ever, for their own safety, but for some reason, conservatives just now started freaking out about it as if they haven't already been peeing next to transgender people for decades. I guess it's because those uppity minorities are starting to ask that they be treated more like human beings and less like punching bags.

So I was responding to a statement that liberals need to lay off transgender bathroom laws to gain more appeal. Given how terribly at risk transgender people are, this is non-negotiable. It's like saying, ''Lay off the 'racism is bad' message.'' We must stand for something, and one of the things I stand for is protecting the most vulnerable of our citizens regardless of whether or not it's popular. (Frankly, I don't think nearly as many Republicans care about bathroom laws as the poster suggested.)

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 11-21-2016 at 05:12 PM.
  #222  
Old 11-22-2016, 12:47 AM
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I was speaking more to quality of life outcomes statistics for trans people in general. I'm sure professional advocates like Una Persson would be more equipped to answer this question specific to the use of public bathrooms.
Shodan has made his feelings clear over the years towards me and mine, in several threads on here. There is no possible amount of fact, evidence, opinion, anecdote, or anything else which I believe will alter his low opinion and disgust towards people like me, so I'm not going to try.
  #223  
Old 11-22-2016, 12:51 AM
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Shodan has made his feelings clear over the years towards me and mine, in several threads on here. There is no possible amount of fact, evidence, opinion, anecdote, or anything else which I believe will alter his low opinion and disgust towards people like me, so I'm not going to try.
That's disappointing to hear. I suspected it might be a "gotcha" question, but I answered as comprehensively as possible because I thought maybe someone else might learn something new.
  #224  
Old 11-22-2016, 09:56 AM
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I was speaking more to quality of life outcomes statistics for trans people in general. I'm sure professional advocates like Una Persson would be more equipped to answer this question specific to the use of public bathrooms.
This is much of what Una Persson appears to object to in my posts with and to her. Una Persson wants very much to believe in things for which there is very little hard evidence.

Your assertion that transgender bathroom laws were intended to prevent transwomen from being beaten is a good example. There is no evidence that this was the purpose, nor that it has achieved.
If you look at the footnotes for this stat, you will note that it is based on unpublished data and is not therefore likely to have peer-reviewed.
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41 percent of transgender people have tried to take their own lives. 41 percent. (Compare to the general population rate of 1.6%)
This is also something that Una Persson have gone round and round on - I am not aware of any hard evidence that the suicide rates for post-op transgender people, or post-hormone treatment transgender people, is any different from the pre-. If you have any such studies, they would be welcomed, I am sure.
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Transgender women have been using the ladies' restroom for just about ever, for their own safety, but for some reason, conservatives just now started freaking out about it as if they haven't already been peeing next to transgender people for decades.
Again, I will ask for a cite for this, unless you meant something other than what you said.

Regards,
Shodan
  #225  
Old 11-22-2016, 11:29 AM
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Well I'd like to ask even the transperson, what good is the protection from getting fired from a job if you cant find a job in the first place? What good is protection from being kicked out of your apartment if you dont have money for rent?

Consider the following:

Boss: "Hey transperson, your fired.".
Trans: "For what, because I'm a trans?"
Boss: "No, because this person from India will work for half what I'm paying you".

The democrats needed to focus on the economy and creating good paying jobs.
  #226  
Old 11-22-2016, 01:08 PM
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Shodan, with all due respect, I have no intent to engage in this subject with someone who has such open contempt for the experiences of transgender people. If Una can't convince you, I doubt anyone will.
  #227  
Old 11-22-2016, 04:11 PM
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Asking for real evidence is "open contempt"? :shrugs:

Regards,
Shodan
  #228  
Old 11-22-2016, 04:59 PM
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Asking for real evidence is "open contempt"? :shrugs:
I have no doubt there is anecdotal evidence, but I'd like to see if there are any solid, significant numbers.


Mind you, I like the idea of unisex bathrooms anyway, maybe stop the crazy long lines for the ladies room at some events. So, whether or not the evidence is forthcoming I have no issues with people using whatever restroom they feel safer in.
  #229  
Old 11-22-2016, 05:39 PM
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Asking for real evidence is "open contempt"? :shrugs:

Regards,
Shodan
Oh, heavens no. I was referring to your apparent lack of empathy or understanding. I wouldn't expect surgery to fix the way society treats trans people, so I wouldn't expect suicide attempts to decrease after surgery. I don't understand how you are not stricken with horror that any subset of any population could have a suicide attempt rate that obscenely high, for whatever reason, regardless of the status of their genitalia. At any rate, I'm no expert on this subject, and not the one who could best fight your ignorance.
  #230  
Old 11-22-2016, 06:12 PM
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If you look at the footnotes for this stat, you will note that it is based on unpublished data and is not therefore likely to have peer-reviewed.This is also something that Una Persson have gone round and round on - I am not aware of any hard evidence that the suicide rates for post-op transgender people, or post-hormone treatment transgender people, is any different from the pre-. If you have any such studies, they would be welcomed, I am sure.
...and that deceptively ignores the simple fact that you have never proven that suicide rate changes alone are the sole valid metric for success. I don't know how many times I've posted it: quality of life changes have been measured by clinicians and therapists, and they overwhelmingly show improvements in quality of life. And studies on changes in EITHER direction in terms of suicide rates simply are very rare.

You cannot base the effectiveness of treatment solely on one metric you are cherry-picking, which is suicide rates. This tactic has been used on right-wing message boards since the mid-2000's, and it's the reason I did this meta-study on the effectiveness of transition on quality of life improvements.

I've asked you repeatedly to prove that quality of life declines in treated transgender persons by doing your own meta-study, and posting the results. You have typically cited one study, or two, and then repeatedly fallen back on your single, arbitrary metric: suicide rates. You've taken the fact that there is a dearth of studies on suicide rates to make the conclusion that by lack of the studies, transition is therefore bad.

You can try to cast the question to your sample size of one metric all you want, but we in the transgender care field know that it's quality of life that matters.
  #231  
Old 11-22-2016, 06:42 PM
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Oh, heavens no. I was referring to your apparent lack of empathy or understanding. I wouldn't expect surgery to fix the way society treats trans people, so I wouldn't expect suicide attempts to decrease after surgery.
Bingo. Transition is a balance of good and bad, something Shodan has shown no visible empathy towards. On one hand there is the good: you can now live and present as your true self, be treated as your true self, and try to go on with life. On the other hand, there's an enormous conservative apparatus and attitude in society which tries its best to deny us employment or get us fired, deny us access to health care, deny us the same basic human dignity and rights as everyone else. In addition to that are the stressors of spouses who cannot live with the transgender person and the subsequent separation or divorce, being disowned and ostracized by your family (even your own children and parents), losing all your friends, being mocked and taunted in public, being subjected to physical abuse, etc, etc.

We nonetheless do it because we must. Because overall, on average, our quality of life is still better after transition. It still sucks, but it sucks a lot less to be, well, real.

Quote:
I don't understand how you are not stricken with horror that any subset of any population could have a suicide attempt rate that obscenely high, for whatever reason, regardless of the status of their genitalia.
His response may be that he is deeply, deeply concerned, and that's why he believes transition is for losers or whatever - he's protecting us, see.

I'm trying to predict if the next post will have the discredited Johns Hopkins asshole McHugh, or the conservative hate group that masquerades as the "American College of Pediatricians."
  #232  
Old 11-23-2016, 04:57 AM
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I think you make a great deal of assumption by inferring that knowing one's "true self" is possible.

Anyway, Ezra Klein made a great point in Vox today: Democrats should look at the causes of their loss, but they also did win more votes, which should limit the amount of soul searching they have to do. This election wasn't a historic repudiation of anything. Democrats won more votes for the Presidency and Senate, and Republicans won more votes for House and increased their lead in governors and state legislatures.

90% of the Democrats' problem is poor candidate selection, not just at the Presidency, but at all levels. An ACLU activist for North Carolina? A retread who had long since abandoned his state for Indiana? The one thing Democrats need to stop doing is assuming their base will be ignorant and unmotivated and just pick the biggest names they can find and hope their fame motivates people somehow.
  #233  
Old 11-23-2016, 10:13 AM
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Those were all very good.

I would also add to quit shoving the "alternative lifestyle" crap down peoples throats. Heck people have just learned to accept gays and NOW they have to toss in the transgender stuff with the bills now requiring bathrooms to be open to whoever feels like using them.

Also allow free speech like that bakery up in Oregon that was shut down and the owners slapped with a $180,000 fine for not baking a gay wedding cake.
well put, but Democrats have convinced themselves that the trans issue is somehow equivalent to the Civil Rights movement; moral zeal will never let them drop it and they'll never let reality show them that trans-ism is NOT equivalent to being another skin color (visual and unconcealable) nor are the consequences.

Sorry, but if one choses to change his gender, there are consequences. When it comes to being male or female, some people need to really learn the whole "grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference" thing. Now this country gets to pay a high price because of the .001% (yes, one thousandth percent) of people who get sex-changes.
  #234  
Old 11-23-2016, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by DerekMichaels00 View Post
Sorry, but if one choses to change his gender, there are consequences. When it comes to being male or female, some people need to really learn the whole "grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference" thing. Now this country gets to pay a high price because of the .001% (yes, one thousandth percent) of people who get sex-changes.
There are consequences to not transitioning for trans people -- suicide, no possibility for happiness, substance abuse, etc. Better to deal with bigots (such as folks who insist on calling them "repulsive" and "disgusting") then the possibility of never being content or happy with one's self.
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Old 11-23-2016, 10:37 AM
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Oh, heavens no. I was referring to your apparent lack of empathy or understanding. I wouldn't expect surgery to fix the way society treats trans people, so I wouldn't expect suicide attempts to decrease after surgery. I don't understand how you are not stricken with horror that any subset of any population could have a suicide attempt rate that obscenely high, for whatever reason, regardless of the status of their genitalia.
Assume that I am stricken with horror. Do you have any evidence that SRS or hormone treatments reduce the high suicide rate?
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Originally Posted by Una Persson
...and that deceptively ignores the simple fact that you have never proven that suicide rate changes alone are the sole valid metric for success.
You are confusing "deceptive" with "objective". Suicide rates are objective. I assume you agree that people who have a good quality of life commit suicide less than those who don't. Therefore it follows that, if SRS or hormones improve quality of life, they should reduce suicide rates. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that it does. Therefore, it cannot be assumed that SRS or hormones have a measurable impact.

If you have another objective measurement, by all means, let's see the evidence.
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Originally Posted by iiandyiii
There are consequences to not transitioning for trans people -- suicide, no possibility for happiness, substance abuse, etc.
Do you have any evidence that transitioning reduces the consequences you mention?

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 11-23-2016, 10:51 AM
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Do you have any evidence that transitioning reduces the consequences you mention?
Just the reports of trans people whom I trust, and articles by mental health professionals who have studied the issue.

It's kind of like gay marriage and adopted kids for me -- sure, studies that show kids are just as well off with gay parents as with straight parents help support the issue, but I think one just needs to talk to gay people and observe gay-couple-headed families to understand and come to the humane and decent position on the issue.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-23-2016 at 10:53 AM.
  #237  
Old 11-23-2016, 10:57 AM
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Right, you will never win by bashing the other guy. You win by showing how you are better and what things you will change or improve.
Um...did you see any of the Trump campaign? "Bashing the other guy" was a keystone of it, whether it was "Lyin' Ted" or "Crooked Hillary". And he was awfully vague on what things he was going to change or improve beyond the remarkably unspecific "making America great again".

And yet he seems to have won.
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Old 11-23-2016, 01:05 PM
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Um...did you see any of the Trump campaign? "Bashing the other guy" was a keystone of it, whether it was "Lyin' Ted" or "Crooked Hillary". And he was awfully vague on what things he was going to change or improve beyond the remarkably unspecific "making America great again".

And yet he seems to have won.
Trump is a counter-puncher. The candidates who attacked Trump were attacked in return. How dare Trump defend himself.

The election was Hillary's to lose. She ran her campaign, and according to the long established rules, she lost. Where did the Democrats go wrong? They allowed the Clintons to hijack their candidate selection process, AND they assumed that Hillary was unbeatable. Oops. Sucks to be them.
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Old 11-23-2016, 01:19 PM
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Trump is a counter-puncher. The candidates who attacked Trump were attacked in return. How dare Trump defend himself.

The election was Hillary's to lose. She ran her campaign, and according to the long established rules, she lost. Where did the Democrats go wrong? They allowed the Clintons to hijack their candidate selection process, AND they assumed that Hillary was unbeatable. Oops. Sucks to be them.
more like Hillary tried to hard to please the parts of the left that didn't like her from as far back as 2008 instead of going for the centrist voter who had misgivings about Trump but also didn't like some aspects of Obama. What happened to Hillary's 2008 primary voters? Obama also moving the party far left of where it was in 2008 didn't help her either.
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Old 11-23-2016, 02:35 PM
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Skipping over the transgendered hijack.

The Hillary campaign was fundamentally flawed in several ways that had little to do with the personalities involved. Not recognizing that every 8 years voters yearn for change against the status quo. You have to get that hope and change message out in front of people and keep it there. Worked for Obama, but Hillary's message was just a continuation of Obama, that doesn't play well to the masses. Oh, and she's a woman, that was the campaign message. What was the rest of her message?

Bernie and Trump were both gathering very large crowds at every speaking event to listen to their change message, while Hillary was not drawing the same interest. Maybe there was voter apathy involved in the lower turnout for her events, maybe the inevitability of her nomination and presumed election contributed to that, but what exactly was her "change" message?" I don't remember and it has only been a few weeks.

Not aggressively campaigning to the end was a mistake. Trump was saying so many outrageous things each week that her campaign was just waiting for that nail in the coffin that never came, voters didn't care, they wanted change, as they always do after 2 terms of a party in office. The big mistake never came, and probably wouldn't have mattered if it did. And this lack of aggressive campaigning, hitting the rust belt with a message that they wanted to hear, never mind if you can deliver, you have to get your change message out. Very difficult if you are just going to be a 3rd term of the incumbent.

The campaign strategy was to run out the game clock and Trump will fumble, blow it, falter in ways that only he can. And it either didn't happen or wouldn't have mattered if he did.

Her campaign could not be sold as a catalyst for change. And that is what voters pretend to want after each 8 year cycle. In 4 years if Trump is even marginally successful in some areas, voters are going to give him another 4 years. Then after 8 years of his shit they will vote for change again.

Democratic party strategy should be to focus on the midterm elections. Strategy for 2020, depends upon events between now and then. Best strategy, a message of change and a fresh currently unknown candidate for in 2024.
  #241  
Old 11-23-2016, 08:58 PM
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You are confusing "deceptive" with "objective". Suicide rates are objective.
No, it depends upon how you examine the population. Example: a population where 1% commit suicide and 99% do not. If a treatment improves the quality of life for the 99%, but not the 1%, then that is still a net improvement in QOL for the population. This is why when trained medical researchers, physicians, counselors, psychologists, and psychiatrists report that quality of life improves for high majority of the patients, we can conclude that is a net improvement regardless of whether there is no reduction in raw suicide rates. Something which there is no conclusive or even good data to really show one way or the other.

You've repeatedly declined to give your medical or experiential bona fides for why you believe your judgement on this subject is better than many major medical authorities and bodies around the world, who have examined the evidence and believe that treatment works. Why is that? Why are they all wrong, and you right? The psychologists and psychiatrists I work with don't seem to have any problems accepting that treatment improves QOL, nor do their licensing, professional, and governing bodies.

Your position as you've expressed it is that no other metric applies to judging benefit in this case than suicide rates. I've asked you before about antidepressants which work but are known to increase suicide rates, and you declined to reply in that instance and moved onto another thread. And remember well when you did the shuck and jive when Even Sven and others tried to get you to admit whether you believe people like me are women? I mean for shame.
  #242  
Old 11-23-2016, 09:13 PM
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well put, but Democrats have convinced themselves that the trans issue is somehow equivalent to the Civil Rights movement; moral zeal will never let them drop it and they'll never let reality show them that trans-ism is NOT equivalent to being another skin color (visual and unconcealable) nor are the consequences.

Sorry, but if one choses to change his gender, there are consequences. When it comes to being male or female, some people need to really learn the whole "grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference" thing. Now this country gets to pay a high price because of the .001% (yes, one thousandth percent) of people who get sex-changes.
A self-admitted hater of transgender persons cries crocodile tears over the fact that fellow haters of transgender persons are placed in power due to widespread right-wing bigotry in this country. Wow. I've read stranger things on the SDMB, I...guess?
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Old 11-24-2016, 06:42 AM
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Trump is a counter-puncher. The candidates who attacked Trump were attacked in return.
And since Trump views any criticism whatsoever as an "attack", that justifies him saying anything he wants about anyone else. Which is handy.

Quote:
How dare Trump defend himself.
But he wasn't "defending himself", was he? Mostly he was just being an oversensitive asshole.
  #244  
Old 11-24-2016, 07:07 AM
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its simple: the Democratic Party, under Obama, moreso under his second term than his first (meaning after he was free from the restrains of being re-elected) has become the party of Islam, Socialism, and Transgenders.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:08 AM
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Identity politics is the short answer. Once the Republicans directly played identity politics, our groups beat their groups.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:14 AM
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The Democrats also took their eye off the ball during the midterms. They lost big, but didn't really seem to do anything about it, plus never seemed to realize that the extra black voters Obama brought in only wanted to vote for him and no one else
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:50 AM
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A self-admitted hater of transgender persons cries crocodile tears over the fact that fellow haters of transgender persons are placed in power due to widespread right-wing bigotry in this country. Wow. I've read stranger things on the SDMB, I...guess?
my main issues were Trump's temperament, foreign policy, abortion rights, and stem-cell research. Those are why I didn't vote for him, tho I wish him luck now. Even for as much as I think violence against self-identified transgenders is wrong, I don't believe in the idea that gender is something you can just change on the fly. All the arguments for it are based on meta-physical gender studies and even the pseudo-scientific studies have serious flaws. And there comes a point where you have to accept the things you cannot change, the courage to change those you can, and the wisdom to know the difference. I can't just cut my legs off, get some long prosthetics, and say I'm "trans-tall." Why can people do that with gender? Also, I still don't know the difference between a transgender "woman" and a super twink gay guy.

Last edited by DerekMichaels00; 11-24-2016 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DerekMichaels00 View Post
my main issues were Trump's temperament, foreign policy, abortion rights, and stem-cell research. Those are why I didn't vote for him, tho I wish him luck now. Even for as much as I think violence against self-identified transgenders is wrong, I don't believe in the idea that gender is something you can just change on the fly. All the arguments for it are based on meta-physical gender studies and even the pseudo-scientific studies have serious flaws. And there comes a point where you have to accept the things you cannot change, the courage to change those you can, and the wisdom to know the difference. I can't just cut my legs off, get some long prosthetics, and say I'm "trans-tall." Why can people do that with gender? Also, I still don't know the difference between a transgender "woman" and a super twink gay guy.
And you think that they're "repulsive" and "disgusting" (your words) and don't think it's bigoted to call them that.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:00 AM
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its simple: the Democratic Party, under Obama, moreso under his second term than his first (meaning after he was free from the restrains of being re-elected) has become the party of Islam, Socialism, and Transgenders.
Says the guy on record saying bigoted things about Muslims and trans people, and who also apparently has no concept of what socialism is.
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Old 11-24-2016, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by DerekMichaels00 View Post
Also, I still don't know the difference between a transgender "woman" and a super twink gay guy.


y'know, on gender issues there is MUCH you do not know...
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