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  #51  
Old 04-19-2019, 02:32 PM
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The Mueller Report clearly states there was no such evidence.
No it doesn't.

There was evidence that he was an agent for a foreign power. There was evidence that Russia attempted to recruit him. There was evidence that Russia tried to interfere with the election. The Mueller report (as far as we've seen) doesn't deny any of that.

What it denies is that the ensuing investigation uncovered any evidence that the Russians were successful in their attempt to recruit Page.
  #52  
Old 04-19-2019, 02:43 PM
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The point is that they know he's not "an agent of a foreign government" because he has assisted the FBI in convicting an individual that was acting as "an agent of a foreign government".
I think I see a flaw in your reasoning. You seem to think that a person cannot be two things at the same time.

It is entirely possible to be an agent of a foreign government while assisting the FBI in catching a different agent of a foreign government. *

Back in the 80s, there were 2 LAPD police officers who were also mob hit men. Cops by day, contract killers on the side. If we were to apply your reasoning, the cops couldn't be contact killers because they were active police officers. But there were doing both. Not really living up to the professional standards and ethics of either job, I grant you, but they were doing it nonetheless.

I not saying he did or didn't, because I have no idea. I'm just saying that is possible
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  #53  
Old 04-19-2019, 04:05 PM
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  #54  
Old 04-19-2019, 04:21 PM
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I think I see a flaw in your reasoning. You seem to think that a person cannot be two things at the same time.

It is entirely possible to be an agent of a foreign government while assisting the FBI in catching a different agent of a foreign government. *

Back in the 80s, there were 2 LAPD police officers who were also mob hit men. Cops by day, contract killers on the side. If we were to apply your reasoning, the cops couldn't be contact killers because they were active police officers. But there were doing both. Not really living up to the professional standards and ethics of either job, I grant you, but they were doing it nonetheless.

I not saying he did or didn't, because I have no idea. I'm just saying that is possible
The Mueller report makes it clear there was no basis for the FISA because if there was the FBI agents working with Mueller would have merely had to go to their colleagues to get the evidence used to get the FISA.
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  #55  
Old 04-19-2019, 04:22 PM
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No it doesn't.

There was evidence that he was an agent for a foreign power. There was evidence that Russia attempted to recruit him. There was evidence that Russia tried to interfere with the election. The Mueller report (as far as we've seen) doesn't deny any of that.

What it denies is that the ensuing investigation uncovered any evidence that the Russians were successful in their attempt to recruit Page.
The Mueller Report contradicts this, see the quote I posted from the report itself.
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  #56  
Old 04-19-2019, 05:06 PM
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The Mueller Report contradicts this, see the quote I posted from the report itself.
It would be quite easy for you to copy and paste the relevant section(s) from the mueller report that would back up your claim.

IOW - CITE?
  #57  
Old 04-19-2019, 05:21 PM
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I thought "agent of foreign power" just referred to someone who works on behalf of a foreign government? It's perfectly legal to be an agent of a foreign power, within certain limitations (e.g. you have to register as such).
  #58  
Old 04-19-2019, 06:41 PM
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From the Mueller Report:



I ask again, why did the FBI lie about Carter Page on the FISA warrant?
As has been pointed out several times, you have a problem reading your cites in context.

Starting an investigation based on allegations of wrongdoing obviously has a lower standard of proof than what one may expect at the conclusion of the investigation.

Just because Mueller found that Carter Page is perhaps the dullest knife in the Trump drawer, which is really saying something, doesn’t mean that a warrant to investigate Page is illegitimate.

If we listened to you, we would have nonsense where you would expect police not to start an investigation until there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt of someone’s guilt. This obviously results in a catch-22 where the facts of what happened can’t be established without an investigation; but and investigation can’t be started without all the facts being in.

The real story here is your obsession with one of the biggest dolts in America today, and making him out like he’s been oppressed like Nelson Mandela.
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Old 04-19-2019, 08:31 PM
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As has been pointed out several times, you have a problem reading your cites in context.

Starting an investigation based on allegations of wrongdoing obviously has a lower standard of proof than what one may expect at the conclusion of the investigation.

Just because Mueller found that Carter Page is perhaps the dullest knife in the Trump drawer, which is really saying something, doesn’t mean that a warrant to investigate Page is illegitimate.

If we listened to you, we would have nonsense where you would expect police not to start an investigation until there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt of someone’s guilt. This obviously results in a catch-22 where the facts of what happened can’t be established without an investigation; but and investigation can’t be started without all the facts being in.

The real story here is your obsession with one of the biggest dolts in America today, and making him out like he’s been oppressed like Nelson Mandela.
Nice post.

First, I’m not 100% clear of the circumstances surrounding Page’s 2013 assistance with an FBI matter, but I’m pretty sure it came about only AFTER he was caught on a wiretapped conversation offering assistance to some Russians. AFTER which he did agree to cooperate. And he did claim that his intent was not to help the Russians but to give them useless information. Which is sort of , well, maybe half of America would be inclined to believe that.

But even if an investigation clears someone, that doesn’t mean they never should’ve been investigated.

This is important to remember because Trump has been gas lighting half of America about how law enforcement works.

Andrew McCabe described the process in his book. I’m paraphrasing from memory and can’t dredge up all the details, but here’s the basic outline.

The FBI doesn’t just get a tip or hunch and decide to launch a full blown investigation. There are multiple levels of preliminary inquiry. For a FARA ( foreign agent registration) investigation, a couple of slanted Op-eds by a political consultant might be enough to launch a preliminary inquiry. An informant tip might be enough ( the recent high-profile Varsity Blues bribery cases were started because a guy being prosecuted for totally unrelated financial crimes had heard about the college admissions bribes from friends and was trying to make a deal.) My point is the bar for launching a prelimary inquiry is really low.

During the preliminary inquiry the agents can “ask around”, as it were. They may have a mutual friend go visit the suspect to poke around a bit and engage in friendly yet purposeful conversation.

If they find anything that confirms their suspicions they can escalate again, and subpoena phone* and bank records. *Just call logs, not the content of the conversations.

After this step, they can then unleash their full investigative powers. But everything is reviewed and discussed at every step.

With regards to Page, I think, given his history, that the FBI was properly alarmed when he turned up as an advisor to a major Presidential candidate. And that in and of itself would more than meet the very low bar to launch a preliminary inquiry.

And As for the clusterfucking that made them all look as guilty as hell.....remember Trump is a reality TV professional. He specializes in guiding and goading his underlings to do increasingly stupid stuff to curry his favor and sabotage each other. So they were all outdoing themselves to do things like arrange ultimately worthless meetings with Russians and take credit for crimes they had nothing to do with. And to leak to the press constantly. No wonder they drew attention.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 04-19-2019 at 08:32 PM.
  #60  
Old 04-19-2019, 08:37 PM
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the investigation did not establish that Page coordinated with the Russian government in it efforts to interfere with the 2016 presidential election.
Does not imply

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Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
the Mueller Report clearly states there was no such evidence.
Another direct quote from the Mueller report:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mueller report
A statement that the investigation did not establish particular facts does not mean there was no evidence of those facts.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 04-19-2019 at 08:37 PM.
  #61  
Old 04-19-2019, 09:11 PM
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The Mueller Report clearly states there was no such evidence.
How would one go about determining whether or not there was such evidence?
  #62  
Old 04-19-2019, 11:35 PM
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There is no evidence.
Why is anyone even continue to argue? This sums up the entire argument very succinctly and tells you all you need to know.
  #63  
Old 04-20-2019, 06:57 AM
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How would one go about determining whether or not there was such evidence?
Quote:
...issued more than 2,800 subpoenas, executed nearly 500 search warrants, obtained more than 230 orders for communication records, issued almost 50 orders authorizing use of pen registers, made 13 requests to foreign governments for evidence, and interviewed approximately 500 witnesses...
As you can see, a lot of resources were tasked to find this evidence, I think if it existed it would have been found. The key thing to remember is that many claimed the evidence existed but yet Mueller and his team couldn't find it.
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Old 04-21-2019, 01:22 AM
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Page 95 of the Mueller report is where section IV. A. 3. Carter Page begins.

That section contains a bunch of evidence that Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power.
  #65  
Old 04-21-2019, 12:55 PM
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As you can see, a lot of resources were tasked to find this evidence, I think if it existed it would have been found. The key thing to remember is that many claimed the evidence existed but yet Mueller and his team couldn't find it.
You didn't answer my question.
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Old 04-26-2019, 09:16 AM
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You didn't answer my question.
I did answer your question. Why do you think the Mueller team didn't find the evidence that many claimed existed with regards to the collusion/conspiracy with Russia?
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  #67  
Old 04-26-2019, 09:21 AM
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As you can see, a lot of resources were tasked to find this evidence, I think if it existed it would have been found. The key thing to remember is that many claimed the evidence existed but yet Mueller and his team couldn't find it.
I'm not sure what your point is. I have seen many validly issued search warrants that don't result in the thing they're looking for being found. You don't judge a warrant with hindsight.
  #68  
Old 04-26-2019, 11:13 AM
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I did answer your question. Why do you think the Mueller team didn't find the evidence that many claimed existed with regards to the collusion/conspiracy with Russia?
Well, the (at least) 10 cases of obstruction of justice outlined in the Muller report may have something to do with it.
  #69  
Old 04-26-2019, 12:33 PM
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I did answer your question. Why do you think the Mueller team didn't find the evidence that many claimed existed with regards to the collusion/conspiracy with Russia?
Mueller didn't find evidence that Page colluded with Russia to interfere in the 2016 election. Mueller didn't look for evidence that Page colluded with Russia in other ways, and the FISA warrant did not say Page's activities as a foreign agent were limited to the 2016 election. You are adding 1 and 1 and making 3.
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  #70  
Old 04-26-2019, 02:37 PM
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How would one go about determining whether or not there was such evidence?
You could become a federal prosecutor and conduct an investigation.
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  #71  
Old 04-26-2019, 09:38 PM
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I did answer your question. Why do you think the Mueller team didn't find the evidence that many claimed existed with regards to the collusion/conspiracy with Russia?
Page 95 of the Mueller report is where section IV. A. 3. Carter Page begins.

That section contains a bunch of evidence that Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power.
  #72  
Old 04-27-2019, 10:21 AM
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What it denies is that the ensuing investigation uncovered any evidence that the Russians were successful in their attempt to recruit Page.
If memory serves, two Russian intelligence agents (in recorded conversation) thought Page was too stupid to be a worthwhile asset. So he wasn't even considered a 'useful' idiot. Which doesn't exonerate Page in any way.
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  #73  
Old 04-27-2019, 11:08 AM
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If memory serves, two Russian intelligence agents (in recorded conversation) thought Page was too stupid to be a worthwhile asset. So he wasn't even considered a 'useful' idiot. Which doesn't exonerate Page in any way.
You are basically correct.

You can find out a little more about this on page 97 of vol. I of the Mueller report (in section IV. A. 3. Carter Page). That's the part of the report that contains a ton of evidence that Page was an agent of a foreign power.

For more info just follow the lead given by footnote 532 of the Mueller report, "See Buryakov Complaint; see also Indictment, United States v. Buryakov, 1:15-cr-73 (S.D.N.Y. Feb. 9, 2015), Doc. 10;" The Buryakov Complaint contains another pile of evidence that Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power.
  #74  
Old 04-27-2019, 11:34 AM
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I would quibble a bit with "agent", in the sense outlined above that he is too damn stupid to have "agency". For the same reason, I doubt that Il Douche is personally guilty of collaboration/collusion. The still, unblinking eye of the hurricane of shit whirling about him.
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:56 AM
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An incompetent buffoon who overestimates his abilities and thus fails in his attempt to successfully pull off a crime is still charged, and often convicted.
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  #76  
Old 04-28-2019, 03:15 AM
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Easy Phil, are you under the impression that the Mueller probe’s goals included examining the circumstances surrounding the issuing of the FISA warrant on Page, for the purposes of either impeaching or validating it’s legitimacy?

It looks to me like you’re implying that.
  #77  
Old 05-19-2019, 09:41 AM
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An incompetent buffoon who overestimates his abilities and thus fails in his attempt to successfully pull off a crime is still charged, and often convicted.
True, but Carter Page was never charged or convicted and more importantly the Mueller report concludes that no American conspired with Russians to interfere in the 2016 election.
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  #78  
Old 05-19-2019, 09:44 AM
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Easy Phil, are you under the impression that the Mueller probe’s goals included examining the circumstances surrounding the issuing of the FISA warrant on Page, for the purposes of either impeaching or validating it’s legitimacy?

It looks to me like you’re implying that.
No, it's clear that isn't in the Mueller Report but what's clear is that the evidence that the FBI used to assert that Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power i.e. Russia, was not found or made available to Mueller's team since the report concluded that no American conspired with the Russians with respect to the 2016 election.
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  #79  
Old 05-19-2019, 09:47 AM
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Page 95 of the Mueller report is where section IV. A. 3. Carter Page begins.

That section contains a bunch of evidence that Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power.
What does the evidence say? Why wasn't he charged?
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Old 05-19-2019, 09:58 AM
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You were told where to look, literally given a page number. Just read it.
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  #81  
Old 05-19-2019, 09:59 AM
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conduct an investigation.
Hey; there's the answer to my question! Now, how should this be done, if investigating is not allowed?

The OP is an exercise in ridiculousness, presenting an argument that cannot be backed up or concluded. It rebukes the investigation for not already knowing what it would find out. It is just stupidity in written form.

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  #82  
Old 06-22-2019, 08:57 PM
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Take a look at this unclassified memo: FISA Abuses at the DOJ and the FBI

In the memo it is determined that the "Steele Dossier" formed an essential part the the Carter Page FISA application. We know who paid for the dossier and surely the FBI knew as well. They also knew that Carter Page wasn't acting as an agent of Russia since their "intel" is out of the unverified dossier. The FBI is either lying or stupendously incompetent.
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Old 06-23-2019, 12:18 AM
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EasyPhil, you keep throwing up.

The memo is based on Devin Nunes Republican Led Majority committee, and is not a finding in a court of law. That the "Steele Dossier" formed an essential part of the Carter Page FISA application is alleged by the committee, but is a judgement call. The committee did not lay out evidence for how it came to this determination, and provides some cherry picked after the FISA warrants had been signed off and renewed multiple times. Hardly clear cut as you posit.
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Old 06-23-2019, 03:26 AM
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Wait, there are still people who trust Devin Nunes?
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  #85  
Old 06-23-2019, 05:54 AM
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...since the report concluded that no American conspired with the Russians with respect to the 2016 election.
I'm surprised you guys let this one go. That's not what the Mueller report found at all. Instead, it would be more accurate to say that there was a lot of evidence that leaned toward conspiracy but that it couldn't be proven. 'Insufficient evidence' is not the equivalent to 'no evidence'.

Christ, next we'll end up debating the meaning of 'collusion'.
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Old 06-23-2019, 07:21 AM
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EasyPhil, you keep throwing up.

The memo is based on Devin Nunes Republican Led Majority committee, and is not a finding in a court of law. That the "Steele Dossier" formed an essential part of the Carter Page FISA application is alleged by the committee, but is a judgement call. The committee did not lay out evidence for how it came to this determination, and provides some cherry picked after the FISA warrants had been signed off and renewed multiple times. Hardly clear cut as you posit.
The memo outlines how the FISA court was misled, how information wasn't disclosed with respect to where the "intel" came from.
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Old 06-23-2019, 07:22 AM
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I'm surprised you guys let this one go. That's not what the Mueller report found at all. Instead, it would be more accurate to say that there was a lot of evidence that leaned toward conspiracy but that it couldn't be proven. 'Insufficient evidence' is not the equivalent to 'no evidence'.

Christ, next we'll end up debating the meaning of 'collusion'.
There's either a conspiracy or there isn't one. No conspiracy was found.
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Old 06-23-2019, 08:02 AM
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Friendly reminder that there were 10 specific examples that may constitute obstruction of justice cited within the Muller report. Part of the problem with obstruction of justice is that it makes it really hard to tell if "conspiracy" existed. Which is why obstruction of justice is a crime regardless of whether the investigation you are obstructing returns a guilty verdict or not.

Also, friendly reminder that Devin Nunes was at the head of the House's investigation into Russia, which, as it turns out, was a total whitewash. In fact, things go so bad the house ethics committee publicly recommended he be removed from the investigation due to ethics concerns. Taking him at his word is akin to taking Trump at his word - a very, very bad idea.
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Old 06-23-2019, 08:16 AM
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And even if they didn't find any evidence (they did, but for the sake of argument), that wouldn't prove that Carter Page wasn't a foreign agent. It would prove nothing.
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Old 06-23-2019, 08:22 AM
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...
Christ, next we'll end up debating the meaning of 'collusion'.
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There's either a conspiracy or there isn't one. No conspiracy was found.
Or 'conspiracy'.
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Old 06-23-2019, 08:33 AM
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There's either a conspiracy or there isn't one. No conspiracy was found.
Yet despite a lack of evidence and total debunkings, you believe various conspiracies about Clinton.
Imagine that.
  #92  
Old 06-23-2019, 09:59 AM
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Whitey Bulger was an FBI informant too. Does that make him any less a criminal?

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  #93  
Old 12-09-2019, 04:44 PM
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From the IG Report Page 126:

Quote:
The FISA request form drew almost entirely from Steele's reporting in
describing the factual basis to establish probable cause to believe that Page was an
agent of a foreign power, including the secret meeting between Carter Page and
Divyekin alleged in Steele's Report 94 and the role of Page as an intermediary
between Russia and the Trump campaign's then manager, Paul Manafort, in the
"well-developed conspiracy" alleged in Steele's Report 95. The only additional
information cited in the FISA request form to support a probable cause finding as to
Page was (1) a statement that Page was a senior foreign policy advisor for the Trump campaign and had extensive ties to various state-owned or affiliated entities
of the Russian Federation, (2) Papadopoulos's statement to the FFG in May 2016,
and (3) open source articles discussing Trump campaign policy positions
sympathetic to Russia, including that the campaign's tone changed after it began to
receive advice from, among others, Manafort and Page.
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Old 12-09-2019, 06:20 PM
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Is that your way of saying that the IG's pretty clearly shows that the basis of this thread was a false premise?
  #95  
Old 12-09-2019, 06:25 PM
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Is that your way of saying that the IG's pretty clearly shows that the basis of this thread was a false premise?
No, it backs up my claim that the FBI lied about Carter Page.
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  #96  
Old 12-09-2019, 06:30 PM
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You link a bunch of stuff that clearly connects Page to Russia, then claim the FBI lied about Page being connected to Russia?
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Old 12-09-2019, 06:43 PM
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The application's statement of facts supporting probable cause to believe that Page was an agent of Russia was broken down into five main elements:
• The efforts of Russian Intelligence Services (RIS) to influence the upcoming U.S. presidential election;
• The Russian government's attempted coordination with members of the Trump campaign, based on the FFG information reporting the suggestion of assistance from the Russians to someone associated with the Trump campaign;
• Page's historical connections to Russia and RIS;
• Page's alleged coordination with the Russian government on 2016 U.S. presidential election activities, based on Steele's reporting; and
• Page's statements to an FBI CHS in October 2016 that that he had an "open checkbook" from certain Russians to fund a think tank project.
The fifth one alone is probably enough for a FISA warrant.
  #98  
Old 12-09-2019, 06:57 PM
EasyPhil is offline
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From page 186-197 of the IG Report

Quote:
The FBI conducted interviews of the Primary Sub-source in January, March, and May 2017 that raised significant questions about the reliability of the Steele election reporting. In particular, the FBI's interview with Steele's Primary Subsource in January 2017, shortly after the FBI filed the Carter Page FISA Renewal Application No. 1 and months prior to Renewal Application No. 2, raised doubts about the reliability of Steele's descriptions of information in his election reports. During the FBI's January interview, at which Case Agent 1, the Supervisory Intel Analyst, and representatives of NSD were present, the Primary Sub-source told the FBI that he/she had not seen Steele's reports until they became public that month, and that he/she made statements indicating that Steele misstated or exaggerated the Primary Sub-source's statements in multiple sections of the reporting. 336 For example, the Primary Sub-source told the FBI that, while Report 80 stated that Trump's alleged sexual activities at the Ritz Carlton hotel in Moscow had been "confirmed" by a senior, western staff member at the hotel, the Primary Sub-source explained that he/she reported to Steele that Trump's alleged unorthodox sexual activity at the Ritz Carlton hotel was "rumor and speculation" and that he/she had not been able to confirm the story. A second example provided by the Primary Sub-source was Report 134's description of a meeting allegedly held between Carter Page and Igor Sechin, the President of Rosneft, a Russian energy conglomerate. 337 Report 134 stated t hat, according to a "close associate" of Sechin, Sechin offered "PAGE/TRUMP's associates the brokerage of up to a 19 percent (privatized) stake in Rosneft" in return for the lifting of sanctions against the company. 338 The Primary Sub-source told the FBI that one of his/ her subsources furnished information for that part of Report 134 through a text message, but said that the sub-source never stated that Sechin had offered a brokerage interest to Page. 339 We reviewed the texts and did not find any discussion of a bribe, whether as an interest in Rosneft itself or a "brokerage."
On page 190 of the IG Report:
Quote:
As discussed in Chapter Eight, Carter Page FISA Renewal Application Nos. 2 and 3 advised the court that following the January interview with the Primary Subsource, "the FBI found the Russian-based sub-source to be truthful and cooperative." Renewal Application Nos. 2 and 3 continued to rely on the Steele information, without any revisions or notice to the court that the Primary Subsource contradicted the Steele election reporting on key issues described in the renewal applications. We found no evidence that the Crossfire Hurricane team ever considered whether any of the inconsistencies warranted reconsideration of the FBl's previous assessment of the reliability of the Steele election reports, or notice to 01 or the court for the subsequent renewal applications.
Read the IG report.
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  #99  
Old 12-09-2019, 07:05 PM
Ravenman is offline
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Wait, you mean the same Steele guy who was close friends with Ivanka Trump? You really glossed over that part.

Is your theory here that the Javanka set up Carter Page?
  #100  
Old 12-09-2019, 07:09 PM
EasyPhil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Wait, you mean the same Steele guy who was close friends with Ivanka Trump? You really glossed over that part.

Is your theory here that the Javanka set up Carter Page?
What's that got to do with the FBI lying about Carter Page? Please stay on topic.
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