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  #251  
Old 12-15-2019, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xema View Post
Here's a Rolling Stone article by Matt Taibbi with pertinent information:
It is correct that the FBI relied, at least in half, on the Steele Dossier for their wiretap request on Page, initially. Their later requests appear to have had more to back them, as Steele's work started to prove more flimsy than they had expected, but it's unclear how much the new information added to the matter, since the new stuff is all redacted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 200
Emails and other communications reflect that in the first week of surveillance on Carter Page _____________, following the granting of the first FISA application in October 2016, the Crossfire Hurricane team collected ______________________∑ 354 Based on our review of the Woods Files and communications between the FBI and OI, we identified a few emails between Page and members of the Donald J. Trump for President Campaign concerning campaign related matters. Emails between Supervisory Special Agent 1 (SSA 1) and Case Agent 1 show that during the initial weeks of FISA surveillance, they discussed several __________________ they believed were significant including references to _________________ ________________________________ _______________________________ ___________________________ ___________________________. The analysts and agents who reviewed the FISA ________ prepared a packet ____________________ that they believed demonstrated Carter Page's contacts with and references to Russia or Russian officials for 01 to consider for a renewal application.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 200-201
Specifically, the elements that carried over from the first FISA application were:

(1) The efforts of Russian Intelligence Services (RIS) to influence the
2016 presidential election-the renewal application stated that
although the elections had concluded, the FBI believed that the
Russian government would continue efforts to use U.S. persons, such
as Carter Page, to covertly influence U.S. foreign policy and support
Russia's perception management efforts;
(2) The Russian government's attempted coordination with members
of the Trump campaign, which was based on the Friendly Foreign
Government (FFG) information concerning the offer or suggestion of
assistance from the Russians to someone associated with the Trump
campaign;
(3) Carter Page's historical connections to Russia and RIS, which
included his business dealings with the Russian energy company
Gazprom, his relationships with known Russian intelligence officers,
and his disclosure to the FBI and a Russian Minister that he was Male-
1 in an indictment against Russian intelligence officers;
(4) Carter Page's alleged coordination with the Russian government in
2016 U.S. presidential election activities, based on some of the
reporting from Steele; and
(5) Carter Page's continued connections to Russian officials, based on
the FBI's assessment of a consensually monitored October 17, 2016
conversation between Page and an FBI CHS. 356

In addition, the recent investigative results section of the application included references to the following:

• _______________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
• _______________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
_________
• _______________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
_________________________________________
• _______________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________ Page
traveled _________________________________________________
____________________________________ to Russia in December
2016;
• ________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
__________;
• ________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
___
• In December 2016, Carter Page made statements to an FBI CHS
(summarized in Chapter Ten), distancing himself from his October
suggestion of establishing a Russian-funded think tank, citing funding
issues as a reason, which the FBI assessed was an indication that Page
was likely trying to distance himself from Russia as a result of media
reporting that continued to tie Page to Russia.
Horowitz refrains from making any comment on the quality of the information (which is generally his standard - he just reports what he found, without comment, other than to make recommendations for what steps to take to do things better). Even with the first FISA application, the idea that it half relies on Page's own admissions and half on Steele comes not from Horowitz, but from documentation of letters and emails between the legal team and the agents, to determine whether they have enough to establish "probable cause".

The closest we have to such an evaluation of the above redacted materials are:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 205
Sanz-Rexach told the OIG that he reviewed Renewal Application No. 1, but did not recall any specific comments he made to the read co . He said that he recalled that rior to the renewal the FBI. He also said that the evidence collected during the first FISA application time period demonstrated that Carter Page had access to individuals in Russia and he was communicating with people in the Trump campaign, which created a concern that Russia could use their influence with Carter Page to effect policy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 206
According to Gauhar, ODAG did not make significant edits or have many questions after it reviewed Renewal Application No. 1. Gauhar also told us that she believed the first renewal was significant because it demonstrated that, despite the questions about whether to seek a Carter Page FISA prior to the first application, the surveillance yielded relevant and useful information. Gauhar said she recalled that the FISA collection included among other things, _____________________________ ________________________________ _________________________.
Quote:
On January 10, 2017, the 01 Attorney advised Evans and 01 management that the FISC judge reviewed the renewal application, had "no issue" with the application, and would sign the application without an appearance.
If I recall correctly, in order for a FISA to be renewed, it needs to show that it is working and providing relevant information. So, for the judge to summarily approve would indicate that, that bar had been met. You cannot simply send the same application as before. Each renewal must include information that was discovered and that information must make it seem like the wiretap is providing value.

The second renewal application then starts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 210
In January and February 2017, the FBI provided updates to the 01 Attorney, which were passed on to his supervisors and ODAG. These updates included:

1. ___________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________
_____;
2. ___________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________
__________; and
3. Page met with an FBI CHS regarding Page's think tank idea and
wanted help/insight from the CHS. Page revealed to the CHS that he
wanted the think tank to focus on countering anti-Western views on
Russia. He also revealed that a senior Russian government official
pledged a million dollars toward the project.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 213-214
In addition, Renewal Application No. 2 advised the court of recent investigative results, including:
• ____________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________;
• The results of recent FBI interviews with Carter Page in which he
revealed that during his December 2016 travel to Russia, he met the
Russian Deputy Prime Minister who asked him how to connect for
"future cooperation," and in which Page also revealed that during
travel to Singapore, he met a Vice President of Gazprombank, which
the FBI assessed revealed Russia's continued interest in Page; 364
• Carter Page's denial during a March 2017 FBI interview that he told
Russian officials that he was "Male-1" in the indictment of three
Russian intelligence officers, described in Chapter Three. When asked
a second time about this statement, Page said he "forgot the exact
statement," which the FBI assessed showed that Page was not
completely forthcoming during this interview;
• _____________________________________________________
______________________________________________________
____________________________;
• _____________________________________________________
______________________________________________________
______________________________________________________
______________________________________________________
____________________;
• _____________________________________________________
______________________________________________________
______________________________________________________
______________________________________________________
________ and
• A February 2017 letter Carter Page sent to the Department of Justice,
Civil Rights Division's Voting Section, urging the review of "severe
election fraud in the form of disinformation, suppression of dissent,
hate crimes and other extensive abuses" by members of the Clinton
campaign, which the FBI assessed was self-serving and untrue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 216
On April 3, the read copy was filed with the FISC. On April 6, the OI Attorney advised Evans and the 01 supervisors that the FISC judge reviewed the renewal application, had one non-substantive edit to a signature page, and would sign the application without an appearance.
Moving into the third renewal....

Quote:
Case Agent 6 told us, and documents reflect, that despite the ongoing investigation, the team did not expect to renew the Carter Page FISA before Renewal Application No. 2's authority expired on June 30. Case Agent 6 said that the FISA collection the FBI had received during the second renewal period was not yielding any new information. The OGC Attorney told us that when the FBI was considering whether to seek further FISA authority following Renewal Application No. 2, the FISA was "starting to go dark." During one of the March 2017 interviews, Page told Case Agent 1 and Case Agent 6 that he believed he was under surveillance and the agents did not believe continued surveillance would provide an relevant information. Case A ent 6 said___________________________ _______________________________ ____________________________________ _________________________________ _____________________ __________________ __________________ _________.

SSA 5 and SSA 2 said that further investigation yielded previously unknown locations that they believed could provide information of investigative value, and they decided to seek another renewal. S ecificall SSA 5 and Case A ent 6 told us and documents reflect that _______________________________ _________________________ _________________________ _______________________ _______________________ they decided to seek a third renewal.
_____________________ ________________________ ___________________________ ______________________ __________________________ __________________________ ____________________ ________________________ ___________________ ___________________ ________________.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 221
In addition, Renewal Application No. 3 advised the court of recent investigative results, including:

• A June 2017 interview by the FBI of an individual closely tied to the
President of the New Economic School in Moscow who stated that
Carter Page was selected to give a commencement speech in July
2016 because he was candidate Trump's "Russia-guy." This individual
also told the FBI that while in Russia in July 2016, Carter Page was
picked up in a chauffeured car and it was rumored he met with Igor
Sechin. However, the FD-302 documenting this interview, which was
included in the Woods File for Renewal Application No. 3, does not
contain any reference to a chauffeured car picking up Carter Page. We
were unable to locate any document or information in the Woods File
that supported this assertion. 371
• A June 2017 interview by the FBI of a different individual closely tied
to the New Economic School in Moscow who told investigators that he
did not think it likely that Carter Page and Sechin met during Page's
visit to Moscow in July 2016. The FBI assessed that, because this
individual was unaware of a meeting that Carter Page had with a
different Russian official while in Moscow in July 2016, the individual
did not know about all the meetings that Page had while in Moscow in
July 2016, and the FBI assessed that, based on the rumored meeting
between Page and Sechin described in the prior bullet point, Page
likely met with Sechin prior to the time that Page joined this individual
at the New Economic School;
• _______________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________;
• _______________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________;
• _______________________________________________________
____________________________________________;

• A statement by Carter Page during a March 30 interview with the FBI
about the loss and destruction of his cell phone at the same time
media reports were discussing the FBI's possible investigation of Page;
and
• Carter Page's meetings with media outlets, which the FBI assessed
may have been undertaken to promote his theories on U.S. foreign
policy and refute claims of involvement with the Russian government's
efforts to influence the 2016 U.S. election. The FBI believed Page was
instructed by Russian officials to deny in the media Russian
involvement with the election.

The application also stated the following:

________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________
_________ Additionally, based on Page's history of willingness to
assist Russian IOs, which as discussed above the FBI believes began
as early as 2007 ... , and his comment to the FBI that he believes he is
"on the [SVR] books," the FBI believes that Page remains favorable to
future RIS taskings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 224
On June 28, the 01 Attorney advised Evans, Sanz-Rexach, and OI's Deputy Operations Section Chief that, based on the read copy, the judge would approve Renewal Application No. 3. According to the 01 Attorney's email to his supervisors, the judge "believed there was enough to let us go one more time and he will approve without a hearing." The 01 Attorney told the OIG that the words, "let us go one more time" were his words and not the words of the judge. He said that he was not trying to imply that the judge said that the court would not approve another renewal.
Remember, when you read articles, that they have to write about something concrete. They ignore all of the black space because they don't know what it is and they aren't allowed to speculate. But that will, necessarily, cause one to come to an unreasonable feeling about what the FBI was using to support their FISAs if you only read second-hand sources.

Steele was, yes, pivotal to getting the first FISA. But there's a whole long section where Horowitz praises Steele from left to right, up and down, for pages and pages because that was genuinely the consensus on Steele, internally, at that point in time, based on his prior work for them. So saying, in retrospect, that that was somehow dishonest of them for the first FISA is bullshit if you actually read through and follow what's going on in what order.

I don't know how relevant Steele was for the renewals but I think there's probably something behind all that black stuff and a reason why everyone forgot the little Steele blurb at the start of the renewal applications that they'd copy-pasted over.

I'll also note that between cites of the report itself and cites of "a guy on Rolling Stone", one of those is more authoritative. And, similarly, the person who is quite happy to freely copy and paste every line of the report over in support of every contention is generally going to be more authoritative. If you have to carefully groom the document for choice quotes, that's a fair indication that you might not be being honest.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-15-2019 at 09:35 PM.
  #252  
Old 12-15-2019, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Haven't read the report because the process of oversight has become tainted by political pressure. Horowitz, like Comey, seems like someone who prides himself on being a straight shooter, who tries to call balls and strikes but who has gotten sucked into the vortex of hyper-partisan politics. I get the very distinct feeling that Horowitz is hanging on, trying to thread a needle, trying to protect an important public institution from the relentless sledgehammer of political bias that the right wing is using against it -- and in the process, I think he assumes that he has to find a way to keep his critics at bay. So he tosses them a little bit of meat (i.e. FBI made numerous errors blah! blah! blah!) while dutifully protecting the valuable mission that these agents performed.

Were there technical errors in the execution of the FISA process? I'm guessing there were. A bigger problem is the power that the courts and congress have given presidential administrations and law enforcement agencies in the post-9/11 world, but Trump's henchmen aren't here to take back that power from law enforcement. They're not complaining that the FISA process needs to be reformed (it does); they're arguing that, FISA should be used to bust terrorists, not corrupt authoritarian presidents who want a leg up from foreign governments to win elections.
I'll go back to what I said here because Trump's attacks on Horowitz pretty much confirm what I feared. Horowitz, like Comey, was presented with a uniquely complex set of circumstances and tried to navigate the hyperpoliticized environment. He's now being attacked for trying to stay neutral. He can't win, because any mistake or misstatement, followed by clarification or retraction. will be viewed as evidence of a conspiracy. Trump and the Republicans are destroying democracy with conspiracy theories and misinformation.

Misinformation is easier to spread and believe than information, because it is almost always intended to be the opposite of fact; it is information that is craft brewed to be palatable according to human biases.
  #253  
Old 12-15-2019, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
... intended to be the opposite of fact; it is information that is craft brewed to be palatable according to human biases.
Based on what's in the Rolling Stone article, this is a reasonably accurate description of Schiff's response to the Nunes memo.
  #254  
Old 12-15-2019, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
... cites of "a guy on Rolling Stone" ...
The "guy on Rolling Stone" is a contributing editor, who's covered politics for for that magazine, and who cites the IG report in his article.

If you think he's misrepresented the report, go ahead and present your evidence.
  #255  
Old 12-15-2019, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xema View Post
The "guy on Rolling Stone" is a contributing editor, who's covered politics for for that magazine, and who cites the IG report in his article.
The IG is the IG.

Quote:
If you think he's misrepresented the report, go ahead and present your evidence.
It's fair to say that I presented a fair amount of evidence on the question in my previous post which, to summarize, I would say points to the difference between "probable cause" and "continuing cause" (not a legal term, so far as I know, but descriptive). The one you need to open the wiretap and the other you need to keep it going.

If the local bank manager tells you that his friend Willard admitted to him that he murdered that girl, who has been in the news, and you open an investigation into Willard, discover a bunch of mutilated bodies in his basement, but then later determine that the local bank manager was a meth addict who was pissed off that Willard kept chucking his lawn mowings into his yard, and genuinely had zero basis to have made the accusation against Willard beyond pure luck, you still arrest Willard and take him to jail.

You can't retroactively undo history. All that you can do is do your best at each stage with the information you have. And so the question is, "Was that a reasonable use of the information you had at that moment in time?" Is it reasonable to believe that a bank manager is a reliable witness? Is it reasonable to think that a "friend" might be granted information about possible criminal activities?

Here is all of the material related to the question of what was understood about Steele at the time they started to work with him:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 84-86
Steele is a former intelligence officer of
_____________ who, following his retirement, was enrolled by the FBI as a
CHS furnishing information to the FBI primarily on matters concerning organized
crime and corruption in Russia and Eastern Euro e. Steele told the OIG that during
his service as an intelligence officer __________________, he developed a
particular expertise on Russia and was stationed for a eriod in Moscow. Steele
stated that, after he stopped ____________________, he formed a
consulting firm specializing in corporate intelligence and investigative services.

Steele's introduction in 2010 to the FBI agent who later became Steele's
primary handling agent (Handling Agent 1) was facilitated by Department attorney
Bruce Ohr, who was then Chief of the Organized Crime and Racketeering Section in
the Department's Criminal Division in Washington, D.C. Ohr told the OIG that he
first met Steele in 2007 when he attended a meeting hosted by a foreign
government during which Steele addressed the threat posed by Russian organized
crime. Ohr said that, after this first meeting with Steele, he probably met with him
less than once a year, and after Steele opened his consulting firm, Orbis Business
Intelligence, he furnished Ohr with reports produced by Orbis for its commercial
clients that he thought may be of interest to the U.S. government. Ohr said that he
eventually put Steele in contact with Handling Agent 1, with whom Ohr had
previously worked.

Handling Agent 1 told the OIG that he first met Steele in the spring of 2010
during a trip abroad with Ohr. 201 He recalled that prior to the meeting, Ohr
described Steele's background, including his work as an intelligence officer,
assignment to Moscow, and Russia expertise. Based on his past experiences
working with Ohr, Handling Agent 1 said he respected Ohr's judgment and had no
reason to doubt his representations about Steele. Handling Agent 1 told us that
Steele had relationships with reputable clients, and this fact bolstered Handling
Agent 1 's view of Steele's credibility. He also said that he had met with some of
Steele's clients and knew of others, and that a representative of one of Steele's
clients informed him that Steele "was solid and that his reporting was very
interesting and good." Handling Agent 1 stated, however, that with the exception
of Steele's work for Fusion GPS, a Washington, D.C. investigative firm, he did not
request information from Steele about his firm's clients. 202

Handling Agent 1 said he came away from his first meeting with Steele
favorably impressed. Handling Agent 1 told the OIG that Steele was very
professional and knowledgeable and "clearly an expert on Russia," including the
activities of Russian oligarchs and Russian criminal networks. Handling Agent 1 told
the OIG that although he was interested in the information from Steele, as of 2010
he was not yet prepared to enter into a formal CHS relationship with Steele.
Handling Agent 1 explained that it is administratively burdensome to open a CHS
who resides overseas and that prior to 2013 he was not receiving a "steady stream"
of information from Steele. Handling Agent 1 said that following their initial
meeting, Steele would provide information only every couple of months and that he
met with him only infrequently, such as when Steele visited the United States.
Steele was not compensated by the FBI during this period. Steele told us that this
information originated from work performed for Orbis's private clients.

Handling Agent 1 stated that in the summer of 2010 Steele introduced him to
a contact who had allegedly obtained information about corruption in the
International Federation of Association Football (FIFA). According to Handling
Agent 1, but for Steele's assistance in arranging this meeting, the FBI would not
have had the impetus to open the FIFA investigation in 2010. The lead FBI agent
assigned to the FIFA matter told us that after Russia won the right to host the 2018
World Cup in September 2012, he approached Handling Agent 1 to request
permission to examine possible corruption in the bidding process. According to the
agent, Handling Agent 1 recalled his earlier interview with the contact that he met
through Steele, retrieved a copy of the FBI FD-302 form memorializing the
interview, and instructed the agent to open a case. The agent said that Steele's
role in the FIFA investigation was limited to recommending to Handling Agent 1 that
the FBI talk to the contact, whose information eventually proved valuable and
helped predicate the opening of the investigation. The agent said he did not recall
having any communication with Steele after the investigation's opening.

Additionally, Handling Agent 1 told us that Steele provided two other
investigative leads to the FBI in connection with the FIFA investigation. First, in
July 2011, Steele provided a report that summarized an alleged conversation
between then Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and then Prime Minister Vladimir
Putin in which, according to the report, Putin acknowledged that a Russian oligarch
had bribed the President of FIFA so that Russia could win the right to host the
World Cup tournament in 2018. Second, in 2012, Steele introduced the FBI to two
British officials with information concerning Russia's alleged efforts to bribe FIFA
executives. Our review of Steele's Delta file also revealed that Steele furnished the
FBI with a report dated June 2015 that quoted a Kremlin official as having admitted
that the Kremlin bribed FIFA executives in order to secure rights to host the 2018
World Cup. 203

According to the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of New York,
as of December 2019, the FIFA investigation has resulted in 26 individual guilty
pleas, 2 trial convictions, 4 corporate guilty pleas, and one corporate deferred
prosecution agreement. Total forfeitures in the matter exceed $120 million. The
OIG interviewed a prosecutor on the FIFA case who told us that Steele did not
provide testimony in any court proceeding. Handling Agent 1 also told the OIG that
Steele's information was not used to obtain any compulsory legal process in the
FIFA case.

In addition to leads provided for the FIFA investigation, we were advised by
the FBI that Steele furnished information about Russian oligarchs, some of whom
were under investigation by the FBI. For example, we learned that, in October
2013, Steele provided lengthy and detailed reports to the FBI on three Russian
oligarchs, one of whom was among the FBI's most wanted fugitives. According to
an FBI document, an analyst who reviewed Steele's reporting on this fugitive found
the reporting "extremely valuable and informative" and determined it was
corroborated by other information that the FBI had obtained.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90-93
Handling Agent 1 said that during 2014 and 2015 he communicated with
Steele more regularly and met with him several times in Steele's home country and
in a city in Europe. Steele furnished intelligence information that the FBI
disseminated, including in four Intelligence Information Reports (IIRs) sent
throughout the U.S. Intelligence Community (USIC) concerning the activities of
Russian oligarchs. 207 Handling Agent 1 recalled receiving positive feedback from
the USIC in response to some of the IIRs containing Steele's information before
Steele began delivering election related information in 2016. Handling Agent 1 said
that the response to the IIRs was that the information was "really good" and there
were requests for additional reporting from Steele. By the time Steele was closed
by the FBI as a CHS in November 2016, the FBI had disseminated 10 IIRs based on
Steele's reporting.

Ohr told us that, during this time period, he and Handling Agent 1 asked
Steele to inquire whether Russian oligarchs would be interested in entering into
discussions with them. Handling Agent 1 stated that he did not recall tasking
Steele to contact Russian oligarchs though he_________________________
________________________. According to Handling Agent 1, Steele originally
proposed the idea of having him approach Russian oligarchs for the purpose of
arranging meetings between the oligarchs and representatives of the U.S.
government. In our review of Steele's CHS file, other pertinent documents, and
interviews with Handling Agent 1, Ohr, and Steele, we observed that Steele had
multiple contacts with representatives of Russian oligarchs with connections to
Russian Intelligence Services (RIS) and senior Kremlin officials. 208 For example, in
late November 2014, Handling Agent 1 met with Steele who advised Handling
Agent 1 that he had received overtures from "interlocutors" for several Russian
oligarchs seeking to arrange FBI interviews of the oligarchs.

Handling Agent 1 told the OIG that Steele facilitated meetings in a European
city that included Handling Agent 1, Ohr, an attorney of Russian Oligarch 1, and a
representative of another Russian oligarch. 209 Russian Oligarch 1 subsequently met
with Ohr as well as other representatives of the U.S. government at a different
location. Ohr told the OIG that, based on information that Steele told him about
Russian Oligarch 1, such as when Russian Oligarch 1 would be visiting the United
States or applying for a visa, and based on Steele at times seeming to be speaking
on Russian Oligarch l's behalf, Ohr said he had the impression that Russian
Oligarch 1 was a client of Steele. 210

We asked Steele about whether he had a relationship with Russian Oligarch
1. Steele stated that he did not have a relationship and indicated that he had met
Russian Oligarch 1 one time. He explained that he worked for Russian Oligarch l's
attorney on litigation matters that involved Russian Oligarch 1 but that he could not
provide "specifics" about them for confidentiality reasons. Steele stated that
Russian Oligarch 1 had no influence on the substance of his election reporting and
no contact with any of his sources. He also stated that he was not aware of any
information indicating that Russian Oligarch 1 knew of his investigation relating to
the 2016 U.S. elections. 211
[Note: Unknown if this was known to the team. Including it for honesty.]

Steele's prior reporting to the FBI addressed issues other than Russian
oligarchs. For example, we reviewed FBI records reflecting that he provided
information on the hack of computer systems of an international corporation, and
corruption involving former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych. In addition,
Steele told us he introduced Handling Agent 1 to sources with knowledge of Russian
athletic doping and obtained samples of material for the FBI to analyze. Handling
Agent 1 could not recall meeting with these sources or obtaining samples for
analysis, though he did remember obtaining information from Steele concerning
Russian athletic doping. Handling Agent 1 said he forwarded the information to the
FBI New York Field Office (NYFO) which had an open investigation concerning
doping.

Handling Agent 1 also recounted for us a situation involving Steele that
reinforced his view that Steele was "very professional" and primarily motivated by a
desire to counter threats posed by Russia. According to Handling Agent 1, on two
occasions Steele made arrangements for a meeting between the FBI and a -
individual who had potentially important information. In both instances the
meetings did not occur due to the FBI's failure to attend. According to Handling
Agent 1, the FBI's failure to meet with the individual was the FBI's fault, cost Steele
financially in the short term, and likely caused a loss of reputation with the
intermediaries who arranged the individual's attendance at the meeting. Handling
Agent 1 told the OIG that Steele's professionalism in seeking to arrange the
meeting and then not seeking to "nickel and dime" the FBI in the process impressed
him. Steele was eventually reimbursed by the FBI for his expenses, but it was over
a year later.

We asked Handling Agent 1 about what information the FBI had corroborated
from Steele's reporting prior to spring 2016 and whether Steele had been proven to
be a reliable source. Handling Agent 1 said that Steele provided reliable
information to the FBI in the past, but that not all of the information Steele
furnished had been corroborated and verified. Handling Agent 1 cited several
examples of information from Steele that the FBI had been able to corroborate prior
to the spring of 2016, such as corruption in FIFA's bid selection process,
information regarding ___________ Russian oligarchs, and corruption involving
Yanukovych, but could not recall more. He also told the OIG that he was not aware
of any information Steele provided prior to 2016 that had been shown to be false,
inaccurate, or problematic. Handling Agent 1 said that the FBI found Steele's
information to be valuable and that it warranted compensation. As a result, in
2014 and 2015, the FBI made five payments to Steele totaling $64,000. By the
time the FBI closed Steele in November 2016, his cumulative compensation totaled
$95,000, including reimbursement for expenses. Steele was not compensated by
the FBI for the election reporting we discuss below.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-15-2019 at 11:10 PM.
  #256  
Old 12-15-2019, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xema View Post
The "guy on Rolling Stone" is a contributing editor, who's covered politics for for that magazine, and who cites the IG report in his article.

If you think he's misrepresented the report, go ahead and present your evidence.
They aren't going to present any evidence, the tactic is to attempt to discredit the source. Comey the Former FBI director had to acknowledge the problems with the FISA after being confronted with his prior statements that were in direct contradiction of the IG Report findings.

My argument is that the FBI lied about Carter Page being an agent of a foreign government and I have yet to see any proof from anyone that shows that he was or is.
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  #257  
Old 12-15-2019, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
The IG is the IG.



It's fair to say that I presented a fair amount of evidence on the question in my previous post which, to summarize, I would say points to the difference between "probable cause" and "continuing cause" (not a legal term, so far as I know, but descriptive). The one you need to open the wiretap and the other you need to keep it going.

If the local bank manager tells you that his friend Willard admitted to him that he murdered that girl, who has been in the news, and you open an investigation into Willard, discover a bunch of mutilated bodies in his basement, but then later determine that the local bank manager was a meth addict who was pissed off that Willard kept chucking his lawn mowings into his yard, and genuinely had zero basis to have made the accusation against Willard beyond pure luck, you still arrest Willard and take him to jail.

You can't retroactively undo history. All that you can do is do your best at each stage with the information you have. And so the question is, "Was that a reasonable use of the information you had at that moment in time?" Is it reasonable to believe that a bank manager is a reliable witness? Is it reasonable to think that a "friend" might be granted information about possible criminal activities?

Here is all of the material related to the question of what was understood about Steele at the time they started to work with him:
You posted a very long quote but it's clear from the IG Report that Steele not only wasn't credible, his work was commissioned by Fusion GPS on behalf of the Clinton political machine. The Dossier was opposition research which the FBI knew but didn't tell the FISA court at any time for any of the renewals with the exception I believe of a foot note. It's clear to everyone that the FBI lied to and misled the court even Comey acknowledges that. You know better than Comey? What's your credentials?
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Old 12-15-2019, 11:18 PM
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They aren't going to present any evidence
Yeah, I'm clearly the one not presenting evidence.
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Old 12-15-2019, 11:25 PM
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Yeah, I'm clearly the one not presenting evidence.
Where's you evidence that Carter Page is an agent of a foreign government?
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Old 12-15-2019, 11:33 PM
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You posted a very long quote but it's clear from the IG Report that Steele not only wasn't credible, his work was commissioned by Fusion GPS on behalf of the Clinton political machine.
The gang leader of the Bloods goes to the police and tells them, "The Crips are planning to rob that bank."

Should the police set up a watch on the bank? Do we suspect that there might be a reason that the leader of the Bloods is ratting out his rival gang the Crips? What do you think the police will actually do in this scenario?

Quote:
The Dossier was opposition research which the FBI knew but didn't tell the FISA court at any time for any of the renewals with the exception I believe of a foot note. It's clear to everyone that the FBI lied to and misled the court even Comey acknowledges that. You know better than Comey? What's your credentials?
I agree with them and with Horowitz. But I have actually paid attention to what they said which is that the officers should have updated the section on Steele as they went, rather than forgetting about it and simply appending "continuing cause".

They were deficient in that regard and that was wrong of them.

The one agent was wrong for failing to report Page's contacts with the CIA. I do not claim otherwise.

But, it is relatively clear that these failures were because of laziness. If you can find the part in the document where Hillary Clinton appears, waves a wand in the face of one of the agents, and convinces him to investigate a person out of political animosity, then go for it. But it's not there. It really isn't. "Deficient and wrong" is not synonymous with "malevolent".

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Old 12-15-2019, 11:37 PM
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Where's you evidence that Carter Page is an agent of a foreign government?
That he said that he is aware that he is working for and providing information to Russian intelligence officers.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=225

Would you be willing to hold a poll of people to ask whether they see that assertion demonstrated in the quotes provided?

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Old 12-15-2019, 11:40 PM
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But, it is relatively clear that these failures were because of laziness.
Inserting text into an email someone else wrote is not "laziness". "Malevolent" is much more apt.
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Old 12-15-2019, 11:49 PM
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Inserting text into an email someone else wrote is not "laziness". "Malevolent" is much more apt.
It is sometimes synonymous, yes. It's unclear from the text how much he was faking. He could have been wholly falsifying, he could have been summarizing the overall message that he'd gotten from the CIA in a way that is frowned upon (i.e. modifying a quote).

There's no obvious motive for a wholesale fabrication and, it should be pointed out, the principal concern with identifying Page's status with the CIA was to ensure that they weren't wasting time investigating a CIA agent, not because they were concerned about FISA. For their purposes if Page was a CIA agent, that would be a good thing. It would mean that they could just walk over to him and ask him what he knew. Boom, Bob's your uncle. All this FISA crap and listening to Page's pizza deliveries would become unnecessary.

The indication would seem to be that he determined that Page's connection wasn't worth noting, and it was easiest to just edit the CIA's response to make that more clear in their response. It was an edit in the normal sense of the word - correcting text for clarity.

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Old 12-16-2019, 12:04 AM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor btw

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=185
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Old 12-16-2019, 10:02 AM
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It was an edit in the normal sense of the word - correcting text for clarity.
I'd say it's fundamentally wrong to modify what someone else wrote and pass it off as original.

If the meaning is thought to be unclear, it should always suffice to supply the unmodified original followed by comments that provide clarification.
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Old 12-16-2019, 10:11 AM
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I'd say it's fundamentally wrong to modify what someone else wrote and pass it off as original.

If the meaning is thought to be unclear, it should always suffice to supply the unmodified original followed by comments that provide clarification.
I don't disagree.
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Old 12-16-2019, 10:16 AM
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Note that Dick Durbin said yesterday that the U.S. Government owes Carter Page an apology:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBS news interview

MARGARET BRENNAN: Inspector general laid out significant errors by the FBI. And specifically, I want to ask you about what an FBI lawyer did when he retroactively changed an email that was presented as part of evidence regarding a Trump campaign associate, Carter Page. Jim Comey is on Fox this morning and he said Carter was treated unfairly. Does the U.S. government owe Carter Page an apology?

SEN. DURBIN: Well, I can certainly tell you, based on what we saw, they do.

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Old 12-16-2019, 10:26 AM
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I'd say it's fundamentally wrong to modify what someone else wrote and pass it off as original.

If the meaning is thought to be unclear, it should always suffice to supply the unmodified original followed by comments that provide clarification.
We can't provide that kind of benefit of doubt in this instance because there was a pattern and practice of omitting exculpatory information from the warrant applications. It wasn't a simple mistake. The FBI needed to hide this information to get the warrant and continue it's renewal and that's exactly what they did.
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Old 12-16-2019, 10:32 AM
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That he said that he is aware that he is working for and providing information to Russian intelligence officers.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=225

Would you be willing to hold a poll of people to ask whether they see that assertion demonstrated in the quotes provided?
Comey, the former director of the FBI has acknowledged the problems with the FBI and the FISA process. Everyone now knows what the FBI did. Here's the quote from the IG Report again. Carter Page was working with the CIA and they confirmed that with the FBI who hid that from the FISC.

Quote:
Omitted information the FBI had obtained from
another U.S. government agency detailing its
prior relationship with Page, including that Page
had been approved as an "operational contact"
for the other agency from 2008 to 2013, and
that Page had provided information to the other
agency concerning his prior contacts with certain
Russian intelligence officers, one of which
overlapped with facts asserted in the FISA
application;
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Old 12-16-2019, 10:35 AM
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Note that Dick Durbin said yesterday that the U.S. Government owes Carter Page an apology:
I'm sure that they'll give it but my sense is that they got lazy on the Steele section, as said, because they had sufficient continuing cause. That is just my sense, but I am not authoritative on that in any way.

That's a technical no-no. In theory, the judge might have seen that Steele was crap, if his portion got updated with their findings, and the new material might not have been all that impressive.* But my sense is that they simply lost interest in the probable cause portion since they were past that. The new material was sufficient for continuing and that's the criteria for continued monitoring.

Again, this may be the wrong analysis but my sense from my own life is that if you strap people with a process that they don't feel serves a purpose, that they'll give it lip service or bypass it altogether. I would not be surprised if you could solve this particular issue by simply modifying the re-up request to not include anything except what has been discovered in the monitoring period since the last application, rather than asking them to include old, historical notes on how things were started. Functionally, as said, that's irrelevant. So long as everything was properly predicated at every stage, continuing is reasonable. You don't stop the investigation when you've genuinely found bodies, regardless of what you discover about the initiating data.

But as said, I'm sure that they will apologize to Page. But I also doubt that they'll mean it, because they know what's under the black and that there's a reason for those things to be black. And, similarly, I doubt that people will perform better to the current standards just because you have chastised them. "Try harderer" is rarely a solution. Determining why the people are doing bad and finding a way to improve the process so that they do better naturally is the real solution in nearly all cases. You have to work with human nature, not against it.

* This is given for the sake of argument. We do not know what the new material was, for the most part.

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  #271  
Old 12-16-2019, 10:48 AM
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Comey, the former director of the FBI has acknowledged the problems with the FBI and the FISA process. Everyone now knows what the FBI did. Here's the quote from the IG Report again. Carter Page was working with the CIA and they confirmed that with the FBI who hid that from the FISC.
I do not disagree with any of that. But that is also not, "Hillary Clinton made them do evil things, out of spite, through magical means."

They did things that were opposed to what they were supposed to do in the FISA request and re-authorization system. There is an authoritarian argument that, that is completely unacceptable and wrong. That argument is undeniably true within its own viewpoint of the world.

As said in the previous post, I don't think that viewpoint works as well, in practice, as working with rather than against human nature. If you are concerned about the FISA process, it is more useful to figure out why they were bad at the process and to use this as a case study rather than to view this as a vehicle for "shaming all them people". They'll apologize, but I doubt that much would change.

But, I'll also note, that it is the Liberals who are most concerned with ensuring that FISA has guard rails a hundred feet tall.

Donald Trump can be quoted encouraging torture, which is pretty well the exact opposite of following FISA meticulously. You might want to consider the question why it is that the party which is less concerned about police abusing their power should suddenly be all up in arms on this one. Usually, they would be the ones offering the defense for this sort of matter.
  #272  
Old 12-16-2019, 02:48 PM
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And let me continue that thought on further.

Let's say that the United States used to be Great and we want to be Great Again.

I would suggest that that point in time was after the Second World War, right? The 50s and early 60s?

When, do you believe, the UN was created? 2014?

Who lead the creation of it? Was it Zimbabwe?

Who lead the movement to make sure that torture was not a component of war, because it is cruel and unusual and that country has a foundational belief that it is not a valid method of establishing criminal activities and that you must always go through due process, citizen or not?

When was NATO established? Was that 2014?

A MAGAer has zero place to complain about FARA violations. If you want to Make America Great Again, I would say that there is only one point in time* where we decided that we didn't give a crap about due process. At that same time, we were in a recession, at least in part brought about by spending a lot of money blowing up parts of Iraq for no obvious reason, using falsified information that the White House forced the CIA to manufacture.

I'm willing to buy that the 50s and 60s were when America was great. If you're aware of some metric that points to greatness, at any level, during the Bush II presidency, then go for it. But even then, I am pretty sure that that's not the time period that Trump is trying to reference when he says, "great again".

I would suggest that if you want to be great again, doing the opposite of everything that we were doing at that point in time is a fucking stupid strategy.

* In living memory

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-16-2019 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 12-16-2019, 02:54 PM
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I have no idea what time period Trump is referring to when he says "Make America Great Again" and clearly this episode isn't making the country "great again". The irony is that you have people cheering the "surveillance state" on no matter what tactic is used as long as it used against the "Orange Man". This "Russia" nonsense is just as bad as the "weapons of mass destruction" nonsense. You think people would have learned a lesson, obviously they haven't.
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Old 12-16-2019, 02:56 PM
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So why do you think the FBI did what they did?
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Old 12-16-2019, 02:59 PM
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So why do you think the FBI did what they did?
Currently I don't have enough information to determine why...Does it really matter though? The reputation of the FBI has been badly damaged by those at the top.
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Old 12-16-2019, 03:01 PM
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I have no idea what time period Trump is referring to when he says "Make America Great Again" and clearly this episode isn't making the country "great again".
So, if it was not that this occurred in a way that implicated Trump in crime, which way do you think he would go on the subject?

Is Trump above falsifying information about people?
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Old 12-16-2019, 03:07 PM
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So, if it was not that this occurred in a way that implicated Trump in crime, which way do you think he would go on the subject?

Is Trump above falsifying information about people?
If Busch, Clinton, Obama weren't above falsifying information about people I don't see why Trump would be any different, just look at the recent stuff about Afghanistan.

If Clinton had won the election, you probably wouldn't see any of this brought to light.
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Old 12-16-2019, 03:08 PM
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I have no idea what time period Trump is referring to when he says "Make America Great Again"
Petty follow-up, but:

You don't say?

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  #279  
Old 12-16-2019, 03:14 PM
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Anyways, I've copied half the document out into the thread. Everyone is free to read the whole thing and determine whether I gave an unfair representation of it.

I do not believe that you will find that I have.
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Old 12-16-2019, 03:33 PM
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Currently I don't have enough information to determine why...Does it really matter though?
Sure it does. I'm not asking you to prove the reason why, I'm just asking what you think.
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Old 12-16-2019, 03:52 PM
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Sure it does. I'm not asking you to prove the reason why, I'm just asking what you think.
Honestly, I don't have enough information to answer that because I can't get into the minds of the players involved. I will say that looking at all of the reporting there does seem to be a "bias" at play...If you hate Trump you're more likely to believe anything that casts him in a negative light aka "confirmation bias". Note that this bias works both ways, people that love Trump are likely to believe anything that casts him in a positive light and reject anything that casts him in a negative light.
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Old 12-16-2019, 03:56 PM
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The IG report stated that there was no appearance of bias in the process.

If you are relying on the report, then you have to use the whole thing, not just the sentence here and there that you like.
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  #283  
Old 12-16-2019, 04:01 PM
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Honestly, I don't have enough information to answer that because I can't get into the minds of the players involved. I will say that looking at all of the reporting there does seem to be a "bias" at play...If you hate Trump you're more likely to believe anything that casts him in a negative light aka "confirmation bias". Note that this bias works both ways, people that love Trump are likely to believe anything that casts him in a positive light and reject anything that casts him in a negative light.
For the record, I defended Trump on the matter that it was being said that he had a child separation policy, rather than a zero tolerance immigration policy. I have also defended the efficacy of torture, though I do not advocate for its use. Similarly, I have taken on Ilhan Omar, pointing out, for example, her chummy photos with a genuine "murder the Jews" jihadi.

My partisan stance is that reality rules all and that defying reality will, inevitably, lead to harm. I don't care which side tries to flaunt that.
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Old 12-16-2019, 04:04 PM
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The IG report stated that there was no appearance of bias in the process.

If you are relying on the report, then you have to use the whole thing, not just the sentence here and there that you like.
The IG Report said:

Quote:
We did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation influenced the decisions to open the four individual investigat ions
John Durham said:

Quote:
I have the utmost respect for the mission of the Office of Inspector General and the comprehensive work that went into the report prepared by Mr. Horowitz and his staff. However, our investigation is not limited to developing information from within component parts of the Justice Department. Our investigation has included developing information from other persons and entities, both in the U.S. and outside of the U.S. Based on the evidence collected to date, and while our investigation is ongoing, last month we advised the Inspector General that we do not agree with some of the reportís conclusions as to predication and how the FBI case was opened.
There's still more information to be had.
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Old 12-16-2019, 04:10 PM
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And zero motive that you can articulate. And everything the investigation found is still real, and is not in any way affected by this.

Must be so frustrating for you.
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Old 12-16-2019, 04:20 PM
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And zero motive that you can articulate. And everything the investigation found is still real, and is not in any way affected by this.

Must be so frustrating for you.
It's the opposite of frustrating, the truth is coming out and that's a good thing.
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Old 12-16-2019, 04:56 PM
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If you think Page was framed, do you also think Trump, Flynn, Stone, Manafort, and/or Rudy are also being framed? Or do you draw a distinction between Page and those others?
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Old 12-16-2019, 05:24 PM
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If you think Page was framed, do you also think Trump, Flynn, Stone, Manafort, and/or Rudy are also being framed? Or do you draw a distinction between Page and those others?
For me it's not the individuals, it's the process that was and is the problem. What happened here is a huge scandal and everyone should be worried about it.

It's pretty obvious now that Page was framed.
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Old 12-16-2019, 05:34 PM
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Also noteworthy is that at the time Robert Mueller was appointed as special counsel the FBI already knew the dossier was garbage and the lawyer that altered the email subsequently wound up on the Mueller team but later let go.
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Old 12-16-2019, 05:49 PM
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That darn process. If everyone would just keep focusing on the process. It doesn't matter what the President of the United States does or says until we make the process perfect. How can you people not see that?
  #291  
Old 12-16-2019, 06:22 PM
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It's the opposite of frustrating, the truth is coming out and that's a good thing.
Sure. You keep telling yourself that. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

We'll all just carry on as usual since this has no bearing on anything at all.
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Old 12-16-2019, 07:22 PM
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It's pretty obvious now that Page was framed.
Based on?
  #293  
Old 12-17-2019, 11:03 AM
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How could the word "framed" apply to Page when he wasn't charged with anything? There were reports of suspicious behavior, it was properly investigated, and they found out that he's not a traitor, just a dumbass. There's no framing there.
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Old 12-17-2019, 11:28 AM
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For me it's not the individuals, it's the process that was and is the problem. What happened here is a huge scandal and everyone should be worried about it.

It's pretty obvious now that Page was framed.
Jesus, why can't you just spit out what you're trying to say, and stop tap-dancing around it?

Are you saying that the whole "Russia tried to get Trump elected so they intervened in our election" is a hoax?
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Old 12-17-2019, 11:31 AM
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That is in fact what he is saying. He has referred to the whole Russia thing and those that believe it because of drinking Kool-Aid in other threads. He just won't come out and say it in this thread.
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  #296  
Old 12-17-2019, 11:46 AM
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How could the word "framed" apply to Page when he wasn't charged with anything? There were reports of suspicious behavior, it was properly investigated, and they found out that he's not a traitor, just a dumbass. There's no framing there.
Was anybody else charged with anything as a result of the Page surveillance? Or even investigated?
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Old 12-17-2019, 12:06 PM
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I think it's telling that MAGAcultists have resorted to championing the cause of a village idiot like Carter Page. I guess if that's the best you've got, lead with it.
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  #298  
Old 12-17-2019, 12:21 PM
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It's because they think this is the key to erasing all of Trump's wrongdoing because they think all of the investigations fall apart with this get out of jail free card. Insane, I know, but that's what it is.
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Old 12-17-2019, 12:26 PM
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I'm not reading the OP as some MAGA guy. Maybe more like "the Bilderbergs control the world's tungsten supply!"

In any case, I agree that his deep, deep, deeeeeeeeeep concern for Carter Page has nothing to do with a whole host of Trump associates being on their way to prison because of connections to Russia's election interference.
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Old 12-17-2019, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
I'm not reading the OP as some MAGA guy. Maybe more like "the Bilderbergs control the world's tungsten supply!"

In any case, I agree that his deep, deep, deeeeeeeeeep concern for Carter Page has nothing to do with a whole host of Trump associates being on their way to prison because of connections to Russia's election interference.
No, he is definitely MAGA all the way. Read his posts in other threads. He just refuses to admit it in this thread, probably because he's trying to make this seem like genuine concern rather than partisan desperate hopes.
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