Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #151  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:13 PM
lisiate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,789
Wow, that exit poll is massive.

I put it down to the Love Actually ad.
  #152  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:14 PM
casdave is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,422
The policies of the last Labour government also killed people - they were Iraqis and around 100k of those are now history, and your point is ?
  #153  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:17 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFiSam View Post
I really, really, REALLY hate the world right now.

And anyone on here who actually thinks this result is a good thing, I do literally hate you, because you are supporting policies that kill people. That's not an overstatement. It's very easy to sit back and talk about niceties but Tory policies will kill people. Fuck it all.
Not to incessantly drag this discussion back across the Pond but I have a bad feeling that this result, like Brexit in 2016, is foreshadowing what is to come here. A few years ago, they scored a surprising victory; now they're trying to normalize their brand of nasty nationalism for a generation. I guess at least we in the US can make ourselves feel a wee bit better with victories in the popularly-elected legislature, but nothing suggests that such successes or swings are a long-term trend. And with Trump coming close to putting two trade deals to bed, he appears poised to survive self-inflicted damage.
  #154  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:22 PM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 9,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFiSam View Post
I really, really, REALLY hate the world right now.

And anyone on here who actually thinks this result is a good thing, I do literally hate you, because you are supporting policies that kill people. That's not an overstatement. It's very easy to sit back and talk about niceties but Tory policies will kill people. Fuck it all.
So get a better leader and make a better argument. That undercurrent of hate from Corbyn, his front bench and supporters has done nothing to bring people over to labour. It wasn't as if he wasn't warned.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #155  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:25 PM
Wrenching Spanners is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: London
Posts: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs McGinty View Post
Labour can sit a fair way to the left of where they were under Blair and still be very much electable.

What they can't do is treat everyone who's less than 100% in lock step as if they're scum of the earth, or insist that the most unpopular major leader in British political history is literally the only person in the country suitable to be Prime Minister.
Iím in a bit of a business-oriented bubble as far as who I talk politics with. But I know several Labour inclined voters who hated Corbyn and McDonnellís economic plans. Itís fair to say that Blair was centre-left. I think youíre probably correct that a left-center-left (kind of like west-south-west) candidate with charisma could have won for Labour. But Corbyn was all the way left. Presuming the exit polls are accurate, I think Labour lost because they had genuinely bad economic policies. There are other factors including Brexit and antisemitism. But, if Labour has indeed lost the election, itís because voters rejected their policies.
  #156  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:30 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFiSam View Post
I really, really, REALLY hate the world right now.

And anyone on here who actually thinks this result is a good thing, I do literally hate you, because you are supporting policies that kill people. That's not an overstatement. It's very easy to sit back and talk about niceties but Tory policies will kill people. Fuck it all.
You can hate the people who really understand what it means, but don't hate on the majority who are just ignorant of what's really going on out there. That information is hard to get through the filters.

And that's why my own rage is directed not at the Tories - they are what they are, and will always be so - but at the Corbynites. Instead of looking to bring people onside through engagement and dialogue, they've chosen to make themselves feel all warm and virtuously pure by pushing people away, prioritising the psychological benefits of moral certainty and tribal coherence over the societal benefits of actual change.
  #157  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:57 PM
casdave is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,422
I will also add something else, UK folk are somewhat dogged and determined, push them, try to frighten them and they will just dig in out of sheer defiance and push back against you hard.

Labour should realise the British character is that we do not respond well to scare tactics, it didn't work well during the Brexit campaign as the Conservatives found out to the cost of Theresa May - they assumed the project fear would scare people into voting remain.

Labour had pretty much done the same thing on NHS and some other issues - its been project fear for months now - and we all know that there is a huge amount of hyperbole.

If our politicians try to scare us into making a decision that suits them - we simply won't do it, and we will bite back and we will keep on biting until it hurts you - no matter how it hurts us - we can deal with pain but in the end you will hurt more than us - so don't push us. We DO NOT SCARE.

Last edited by casdave; 12-12-2019 at 06:59 PM.
  #158  
Old 12-12-2019, 07:03 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
Iím in a bit of a business-oriented bubble as far as who I talk politics with. But I know several Labour inclined voters who hated Corbyn and McDonnellís economic plans. Itís fair to say that Blair was centre-left. I think youíre probably correct that a left-center-left (kind of like west-south-west) candidate with charisma could have won for Labour. But Corbyn was all the way left. Presuming the exit polls are accurate, I think Labour lost because they had genuinely bad economic policies. There are other factors including Brexit and antisemitism. But, if Labour has indeed lost the election, itís because voters rejected their policies.
I don't think that any particular policy was too far to the left for the public to stomach, or even that the general thrust of the programme as a whole was excessively radical.

But I do think that the headline policies were a sack of shit, ranging from the unnecessary through the barely relevant to the downright impossible. It feels like they just sat down and wrote a wish list of things that all good Corbynites are supposed to want, and added a couple they knew would catch headlines, when what they needed was a coherent vision of reforms aimed at the concerns of average voters.
  #159  
Old 12-12-2019, 07:14 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by casdave View Post
Labour had pretty much done the same thing on NHS and some other issues - its been project fear for months now - and we all know that there is a huge amount of hyperbole.
Very good point here. They oversold the dangers of Conservative stewardship of the NHS, but also undersold the benefits of Labour spending. It was all about stopping the Evil Tories, when it should have been about more doctors, more nurses, shorter waiting lists, better care.
  #160  
Old 12-12-2019, 07:17 PM
SciFiSam is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Beffnal Green innit
Posts: 8,560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs McGinty View Post
You can hate the people who really understand what it means, but don't hate on the majority who are just ignorant of what's really going on out there. That information is hard to get through the filters.

And that's why my own rage is directed not at the Tories - they are what they are, and will always be so - but at the Corbynites. Instead of looking to bring people onside through engagement and dialogue, they've chosen to make themselves feel all warm and virtuously pure by pushing people away, prioritising the psychological benefits of moral certainty and tribal coherence over the societal benefits of actual change.
Nope, because those who voted for the Tories voted for a really right wing version of Tories and everyone on here who's British knows that.

Johnson is openly racist and sexist and says things like children of working women are more likely to be muggers. He lies, lies, lies, and lies again, and does it so much that it's hard to keep up. He hid from almost almost all interviews in this election.

He copied Trump, and Trump won. They even both do the stupid hair thing.

Umunna wouldn't have won, Smith wouldn't have won, Cooper wouldn't have won, no Labour leader would have won, because when people are literally choosing a person like Johnson, they are not choosing on policies, they're consciously choosing someone who they know is a vile bastard.

And every single person who voted Tory voted to make my life much, much more difficult. I do hate them, because it would honestly be a little weird not to hate people like that, right?

And they'll turn up at hospital and demand care and complain about not getting it and they fucking voted for it.
  #161  
Old 12-12-2019, 07:19 PM
Mk VII is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: England
Posts: 2,968
Under a more plausible leader, such as Keir Starmer, Labour would probably have done better. Right now we are waiting to find out how bad it is for them, exit polls are not usually all that wrong.
(actually I'm going to bed, whatever the result is, it can keep until 06:00hrs).
  #162  
Old 12-12-2019, 07:29 PM
Mrs McGinty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFiSam View Post
Nope, because those who voted for the Tories voted for a really right wing version of Tories and everyone on here who's British knows that.

Johnson is openly racist and sexist and says things like children of working women are more likely to be muggers. He lies, lies, lies, and lies again, and does it so much that it's hard to keep up. He hid from almost almost all interviews in this election.

He copied Trump, and Trump won. They even both do the stupid hair thing.

Umunna wouldn't have won, Smith wouldn't have won, Cooper wouldn't have won, no Labour leader would have won, because when people are literally choosing a person like Johnson, they are not choosing on policies, they're consciously choosing someone who they know is a vile bastard.

And every single person who voted Tory voted to make my life much, much more difficult. I do hate them, because it would honestly be a little weird not to hate people like that, right?

And they'll turn up at hospital and demand care and complain about not getting it and they fucking voted for it.
Keep thinking like that and you'll keep helping the Tories win.

Change is achieved by bringing people onside. Which means separating the irredeemable from the misinformed.

So long as you hate people for being wrong, you'll give the real bastards an easy path to power.
  #163  
Old 12-12-2019, 08:26 PM
MortSahlFan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: US
Posts: 618
I'm hoping Jeremy Corbyn wins!

I'm also rooting for George Galloway, but it looks like its over for him.
  #164  
Old 12-12-2019, 08:34 PM
The Stafford Cripps is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by MortSahlFan View Post

I'm also rooting for George Galloway, but it looks like its over for him.
I'm not even going to bother looking up where he's standing, but nobody likes George Galloway.
  #165  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:48 PM
Wesley Clark is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,860
As someone who doesn't understand UK politics, can someone explain to me why the conservatives won so heavily?

I thought Brexit barely passed with 52% of the vote when the referendum happened. Was this election a referendum on brexit? Was it a referendum on the NHS?

Are there still hard feelings against the labour party due to the Iraq war? Didn't the conservative party also vote for it though?
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #166  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:53 PM
The Stafford Cripps is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
As someone who doesn't understand UK politics, can someone explain to me why the conservatives won so heavily?

I thought Brexit barely passed with 52% of the vote when the referendum happened. Was this election a referendum on brexit? Was it a referendum on the NHS?

Are there still hard feelings against the labour party due to the Iraq war? Didn't the conservative party also vote for it though?
Nothing to do with Iraq war - current Labour leadership were totally against it. 48% voted remain, small percentage now want Brexit to happen as it respects democratic decision, rest split between Labour and LibDems in England; first past the post system allows Tories to win massive majority without significantly increasing vote share.
  #167  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:56 PM
Wesley Clark is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,860
Ok, so did the conservatives win because the leftist vote was split between labour and liberal democrats (the same way republicans win when leftist votes in the US are split between democrats and the green party)?

If so, why did people split the vote? Did they feel labour was too conservative?

Does the UK have any kind of grassroots pressure to move towards a ranked choice or other voting method where third parties don't act as spoilers?
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 12-12-2019 at 09:57 PM.
  #168  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:57 PM
adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,043
There was the anti-semitism thing, but also Labor went far left on economics while the Conservatives also went left and thus captured the center. If the GOP did the same thing here and ixnayed the hate speech they'd win landslides too.
  #169  
Old 12-12-2019, 10:04 PM
The Stafford Cripps is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Ok, so did the conservatives win because the leftist vote was split between labour and liberal democrats (the same way republicans win when leftist votes in the US are split between democrats and the green party)?

If so, why did people split the vote? Did they feel labour was too conservative?

Does the UK have any kind of grassroots pressure to move towards a ranked choice or other voting method where third parties don't act as spoilers?
Def not too conservative, too early to say why tactical voting didn't work/happen.

No strong movement towards PR voting, in large part thanks to LibDems totally fucking up the whole issue in 2010. Also people just don't understand what it means, thanks to deliberate obfuscation on the part of the BBC and the newspapers.
  #170  
Old 12-12-2019, 10:06 PM
ISiddiqui is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Decatur, Georgia, USA
Posts: 6,879
Apparently the Brexit Party only really ran in close races and Labour districts and somehow actually took a good deal of Labour votes (or at least enough), giving those areas to the Conservatives.

Last edited by ISiddiqui; 12-12-2019 at 10:07 PM.
  #171  
Old 12-12-2019, 10:07 PM
adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,043
Also, Labor's position on the biggest issue of the day for Britain was similar to the Whigs position on slavery. It was a muddled mess when the voters demanded clarity and a real choice.
  #172  
Old 12-12-2019, 10:12 PM
Wesley Clark is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stafford Cripps View Post
Def not too conservative, too early to say why tactical voting didn't work/happen.

No strong movement towards PR voting, in large part thanks to LibDems totally fucking up the whole issue in 2010. Also people just don't understand what it means, thanks to deliberate obfuscation on the part of the BBC and the newspapers.
Well that sucks.

I looked at election results so far. The conservative parties (conservative and brexit) have 4.3 million votes right now.

The leftist parties (labour, social democrats, scottish nationalist, sinn fein, green) seem to have over 5 million votes so far. It sucks if the vote is just being split on the left and letting the conservatives win.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 12-12-2019 at 10:13 PM.
  #173  
Old 12-12-2019, 10:24 PM
adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,043
The electoral system working badly for the left is just structural, and it's worldwide. For one, they tend to concentrate in urban areas, for another, they are more prone to fractures that prevent winning elections or prevent governance once elections are won.
  #174  
Old 12-12-2019, 10:45 PM
dalej42 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 15,255
Corbyn will resign but only after a ‘period of reflection.’ In other words, he wants to continue to take over the Labour Party and get his far left cronies into power.

I hope the entire PLP turns on him and actively mocks him daily until the scum resigns.
__________________
Twitter:@Stardales IG:@Dalej42
  #175  
Old 12-12-2019, 10:48 PM
Wesley Clark is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by adaher View Post
The electoral system working badly for the left is just structural, and it's worldwide. For one, they tend to concentrate in urban areas, for another, they are more prone to fractures that prevent winning elections or prevent governance once elections are won.
Yeah but it wasn't always like that. In the modern age the rise of neofascism seems to be occurring in rural areas in the US, UK, Poland, Turkey, France, etc. while the urban areas are more leftist.

But in the US at least, the rural areas used to be leftist up until the civil rights movement.

But yeah the modern left is at a disadvantage. Especially since they have no real answer to the appeal of identity politics other than ridicule.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #176  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:16 PM
chizzuk is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,125
The DUP's deputy leader, Nigel Dodds, has lost his seat to Sinn Fein. How embarrassing for him. That seat came into existence in 1885, before the Irish Free State was even a thing, and has been in unionist hands up until now.
  #177  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:18 PM
Zakalwe's Avatar
Zakalwe is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 5,013
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
Corbyn will resign but only after a Ďperiod of reflection.í In other words, he wants to continue to take over the Labour Party and get his far left cronies into power.

I hope the entire PLP turns on him and actively mocks him daily until the scum resigns.
Or not:

Jeremy Corbyn to step down as Labour leader after crushing defeat

According to the article, first thing in the morning.
  #178  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:18 PM
dalej42 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 15,255
Jo Swinson loses as well so what’s left of the Libs will need a new leader as well as the DUP.
__________________
Twitter:@Stardales IG:@Dalej42
  #179  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:23 PM
GreenWyvern's Avatar
GreenWyvern is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 1,937
Jo Swinson has lost her seat. So much for being the next prime minister.

It underlines how wrongheaded the Lib Dems have been in this election.
  #180  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:29 PM
adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Yeah but it wasn't always like that. In the modern age the rise of neofascism seems to be occurring in rural areas in the US, UK, Poland, Turkey, France, etc. while the urban areas are more leftist.

But in the US at least, the rural areas used to be leftist up until the civil rights movement.

But yeah the modern left is at a disadvantage. Especially since they have no real answer to the appeal of identity politics other than ridicule.
It's hard to take the moral high ground when identity politics is pretty much the basis of your party, and now it's the basis of both parties. If you look at 2nd choice voting in the Democratic primary, ideology seems almost irrelevant. Old white voters will take Biden or Sanders, women will take Harris or Warren, college educated voters like Warren and Buttigieg. It's all about who you see yourself in or who you think will fight hardest for your group.
  #181  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:47 PM
Wesley Clark is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by adaher View Post
It's hard to take the moral high ground when identity politics is pretty much the basis of your party, and now it's the basis of both parties. If you look at 2nd choice voting in the Democratic primary, ideology seems almost irrelevant. Old white voters will take Biden or Sanders, women will take Harris or Warren, college educated voters like Warren and Buttigieg. It's all about who you see yourself in or who you think will fight hardest for your group.
The biggest demographic factor within the democratic party is age. Older democrats prefer Biden and younger democrats prefer sanders.

Even in the black community which is very pro Biden, it's more older black voters who support him while younger ones are more open to Warren or sanders.

I think that's more about conservatism and cynicism with capitalism more than identity politics.

But the gops message is that whites, men, Christians, native born Americans, conservatives, etc are more valid and authentic than everyone else. It's a very appealing message and the democrats have no way to counter it.

The rich and powerful use divide and conquer tactics to divide the population. I saw Bernie sanders at a rally and he discussed this fact, but democrats haven't really pushed the narrative that identity politics just makes you a pawn of the rich and powerful. But even so who knows if that narrative would even work.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #182  
Old 12-13-2019, 12:16 AM
GreenWyvern's Avatar
GreenWyvern is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 1,937
Well, the turkeys have certainly voted for Christmas. Now butcher Johnson is sharpening his knife to get them oven ready.
  #183  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:11 AM
adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,043
Abandoning identity politics and wokeness in favor of the old traditional "treat everyone the same" goal would definitely make me more likely to be a Democrat.
  #184  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:15 AM
Staggerlee is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 2,013
Quote:
Originally Posted by casdave View Post
I will also add something else, UK folk are somewhat dogged and determined, push them, try to frighten them and they will just dig in out of sheer defiance and push back against you hard.

Labour should realise the British character is that we do not respond well to scare tactics, it didn't work well during the Brexit campaign as the Conservatives found out to the cost of Theresa May - they assumed the project fear would scare people into voting remain.

Labour had pretty much done the same thing on NHS and some other issues - its been project fear for months now - and we all know that there is a huge amount of hyperbole.

If our politicians try to scare us into making a decision that suits them - we simply won't do it, and we will bite back and we will keep on biting until it hurts you - no matter how it hurts us - we can deal with pain but in the end you will hurt more than us - so don't push us. We DO NOT SCARE.
Spare me the home-spun wisdom. The 'Great' British People are scared by/have mindless optimism for exactly what they're told to by the right-wing tabloids and charismatic pseudo-rebel leaders.
  #185  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:26 AM
adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,043
So why did the right wing tabloids defeat the great BBC, which supposedly insures that there's a fair debate in Britain? Not to mention all the left wing papers like the Guardian? Some of the langugage coming out of Britain's left today seems to advocate shutting down media they disagree with.
  #186  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:30 AM
AK84 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 16,650
The end of the United Kingdom seems likely.
  #187  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:34 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 27,164
"Whelp, that's Brexit sorted, then!", he said sarcastically.

And the overwhelming SNP gains means the Union's days are likely numbered, don't they? No-one can say they don't have a clear mandate for a second referendum. Of course, Boris won't allow one, but that's just going to build resentment, especially when the reality of Brexit kicks in.
  #188  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:47 AM
Wrenching Spanners is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: London
Posts: 716
Scots: Why did Labour do so badly in Scotland?
  #189  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:47 AM
Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 16,204
All right Scotland, time to get out!
  #190  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:52 AM
Tamerlane is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 13,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
But in the US at least, the rural areas used to be leftist up until the civil rights movement.
I'm going to have to disagree. Rural areas were economically populist( and they still sorta are ), which during and post-New Deal meant poor rural whites generally aligned with liberal urban whites and minorities for a few decades in a coalition of sort. But that did not imply leftist ideology, or at least not the type of social liberalism usually associated with leftist views. Many, many southern Democrats were fervent racists and segregationists.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 12-13-2019 at 01:56 AM.
  #191  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:32 AM
Wrenching Spanners is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: London
Posts: 716
Boris Johnson’s winning speech was pretty good. “Let’s get Brexit done, but first let’s get breakfast done.”
  #192  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:13 AM
PatrickLondon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: London
Posts: 3,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
As someone who doesn't understand UK politics, can someone explain to me why the conservatives won so heavily?
The numbers of votes cast suggest only modest increases in the vote for the Tories and for the minor parties, over the whole country, but all of those seemingly coming from Labour. Add that to where those movements were, in a first-past-the-post system, and it translates into a substantial loss of Labour seats. Overall, the Tories saw off the Brexit Party and consolidated those votes. Labour lost votes in leave-leaning seats to the Tories; in Remain-leaning seats, Labour votes leached away in lesser quantities to the LibDems and Greens. Clearly, being seen to sit on the fence was the wrong strategy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50770798
  #193  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:51 AM
Baron Greenback's Avatar
Baron Greenback is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 12,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
Scots: Why did Labour do so badly in Scotland?
Scottish Labour died years ago. Long story short: they took their decades-long dominance (on both the local and national levels) for granted, and treated the voters with lazy contempt. The SNP, being the sort of centre-left party that Scotland actually likes, hoovered up the votes.
  #194  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:29 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 9,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Ok, so did the conservatives win because the leftist vote was split between labour and liberal democrats
Some key points that I've heard over and over and over and over, from both leavers, remainers, labour and tories.

a) People wanted certainty over Brexit, Labour didn't offer that, sat on the fence and so appeared to ignore the mostly "Leave" nature of their less metropolitan voters. Guess what happened. I said before that they are seen as "london Labour" and this seems to be borne out by the rural/metropolitan voting patterns.

b) Corbyn was hated and mistrusted even more than Johnson. Outside of his fan club and front bench he was seen as a liability based upon.......oh, I dunno, everything he's said and done in parliament for the last 35 years. He was a terrible choice as leader in the first place.

c) Labour's massive spending and re-nationalisation commitments in their manifesto appeared unreasonable and reminiscent of past labour dark-days. i.e. on-the-hoof committing 58 billion to compensate a group of women who were given notice of their pension equalisation nearly 25 years ago. Popular with them I'm sure but again, it feeds into the historical labour perception.

The loudest mood music I heard both here (in the traditionally tory south-east) and in my home area of the north-east (traditionally labour) was very strongly that Corbyn was a turn-off and no-one trusted him or his front-bench (apart from Starmer) and nor did they want to prolong the Brexit process.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #195  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:16 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 20,475
I just spoke to my Brit buddy, who is beaming and happy he waited before converting British pounds to Thai baht. The pound is up 3% on the election. (Never mind that it is still well below its pre-Brexit level.)

So I wondered: If Labour had won, would the pound have dropped significantly?

Would it be fair to say that voters felt they were presented with two choices:
* Exit from the EU now.
* No, let's have another year or two of dithering and uncertainty.
? If so, the vote would seem to be less an endorsement of Brexit than a rejection of chaos.
  #196  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:34 AM
Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 24,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by aldiboronti View Post
Boris Johnon takes a lot of flak on this board but here in the UK we know just what an astute politician he is. Love him or hate him you should never underestimate him.
"Astute" in the same sense Trump is astute, by which I mean "utterly without shame". One can accomplish a lot if one has no scruples and a lot of money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by casdave View Post
I will also add something else, UK folk are somewhat dogged and determined, push them, try to frighten them and they will just dig in out of sheer defiance and push back against you hard.
This is nonsense. The Conservative campaign was nothing BUT scare tactics. Even in this thread one can see the hyperbolic anti-Corbyn rhetoric openly spread and rarely challenged.

Right-wing scare tactics have a long history of working in this country. It's why the Daily Mail continues to be as successful as it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SciFiSam View Post
Nope, because those who voted for the Tories voted for a really right wing version of Tories and everyone on here who's British knows that.

Johnson is openly racist and sexist and says things like children of working women are more likely to be muggers. He lies, lies, lies, and lies again, and does it so much that it's hard to keep up. He hid from almost almost all interviews in this election.

He copied Trump, and Trump won. They even both do the stupid hair thing.

Umunna wouldn't have won, Smith wouldn't have won, Cooper wouldn't have won, no Labour leader would have won, because when people are literally choosing a person like Johnson, they are not choosing on policies, they're consciously choosing someone who they know is a vile bastard.

And every single person who voted Tory voted to make my life much, much more difficult. I do hate them, because it would honestly be a little weird not to hate people like that, right?

And they'll turn up at hospital and demand care and complain about not getting it and they fucking voted for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs McGinty View Post
Keep thinking like that and you'll keep helping the Tories win.
Yes, it's our fault that other people believe lies, and its our fault that their feelings are hurt when we point out that they are believing lies, and it's our fault that they applaud and enable open corruption in politicians they like and eschew any responsibility for holding them accountable. And when the consequences of their actions occur, they'll claim that that's all our fault too.

It's funny how Hillary Clinton and Jeremy Corbyn are blamed for every flaw, while Johnson and Trump are given a pass by those saying "Well, the other side should have run a better campaign" and while ignoring years-long well-funded (by whom?)nasty propaganda campaigns. The Conservatives literally made up both a fake fact-checking site and a fake Labour manifesto site. When Boris took a hit for ignoring the photo of the boy on the floor of the hospital, a fake email originating from Matt Hancock's office was circulated claiming that the picture was faked. What went on this election cycle is unprecedented in recent British history, and it is only going to get worse, You say we shouldn't "dare" to blame the loss on what actually happened; I say don't you dare to dump this all on Corbyn. Seriously, fuck that noise.

SciFiSam is right - if it hadn't been Corbyn, the smear machine would have targeted whoever was at the helm. Believing that if only Labour (or the Democrats) had the perfect candidate everything would have come out sunshine, lollipops and rainbows - that's what will keep helping the Tories/Republicans win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adaher View Post
So why did the right wing tabloids defeat the great BBC, which supposedly insures that there's a fair debate in Britain? .
Because the Conservatives have taken over the BBC. Did you not know? The editor of the Today Programme, the flagship Radio 4 news show, is a former Telegraph and Daily Mail editor and friends with the same media oligarchs who have been backing Boris. Laura Kuenssberg didn't even pretend to be objective in her political reporting. The BBC has long abandoned any pretense of journalistic integrity.
  #197  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:53 AM
Wrenching Spanners is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: London
Posts: 716
Luciana Berger lost in Finchley and Golders Green, a seat the Conservatives retained. I was hoping she'd be returned to Parliament.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4312586.html
  #198  
Old 12-13-2019, 06:06 AM
Dead Cat is offline
I was curious...
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I just spoke to my Brit buddy, who is beaming and happy he waited before converting British pounds to Thai baht. The pound is up 3% on the election. (Never mind that it is still well below its pre-Brexit level.)

So I wondered: If Labour had won, would the pound have dropped significantly?
I expect so, yes. Their spending plans required more borrowing, which I think would weaken the pound in the short term.

Quote:
Would it be fair to say that voters felt they were presented with two choices:
* Exit from the EU now.
* No, let's have another year or two of dithering and uncertainty.
? If so, the vote would seem to be less an endorsement of Brexit than a rejection of chaos.
I think that's a fair assessment, yes, and something the Labour campaign failed to adequately address.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
Luciana Berger lost in Finchley and Golders Green, a seat the Conservatives retained. I was hoping she'd be returned to Parliament.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4312586.html
I guess even a Jewish candidate wasn't enough to overcome the lack of leadership shown on the anti-Semitism issue.
  #199  
Old 12-13-2019, 06:17 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 9,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
SciFiSam is right - if it hadn't been Corbyn, the smear machine would have targeted whoever was at the helm. Believing that if only Labour (or the Democrats) had the perfect candidate everything would have come out sunshine, lollipops and rainbows - that's what will keep helping the Tories/Republicans win.
You don't need a perfect candidate, and of course there are no guarantees, but even just someone who hasn't been utterly useless would be a start. The majority of their own members have been saying it ever since he was elected, the people on the doorstep have been telling them as much since he was elected. "Competent" was all that was needed, "actively repulsive and indecisive" is what labour chose.

I'm on record right on this board saying that it was no good picking someone that energised a party of a million members, if ultimately he chased away an even greater number of less fanatical voters. So it proved and Labour had fair warning, even as recently as the potential government of national unity in which the dear leader simply had to take charge, even though he was being told how toxic that was.

His smears are all his own doing because the record shows what he has said and done, the views he's held, the policies he espouses, the people he associates with and those he refuses to distance himself from. All of it made him unsuitable and unfit from the start. One the biggest issue of the day he couldn't even bring himself to pick a side, even though he had been a "leave" person right up until political expediency suggested he pretend otherwise.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #200  
Old 12-13-2019, 06:37 AM
PatrickLondon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: London
Posts: 3,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Cat View Post
I guess even a Jewish candidate wasn't enough to overcome the lack of leadership shown on the anti-Semitism issue.
Luciana Berger was the LibDem candidate.

Now, to other questions on the fallout - which ejected MP should we expect to see in next year's Strictly Come Dancing? Jo Swinson? Zac Goldsmith? Nigel Dodds?
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:59 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017