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  #201  
Old 12-13-2019, 06:47 AM
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Luciana Berger was the LibDem candidate.
Thank you. That is more surprising in that case.
  #202  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:18 AM
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I guess even a Jewish candidate wasn't enough to overcome the lack of leadership shown on the anti-Semitism issue.
Luciana Berger was a defection to the Liberal Democrats, and also switched constituencies. She turned a 2 horse race into a 3 horse race and trounced the Labour candidate, but only pulled a minor amount of votes from the Conservative incumbent. Finchley and Golders Green is a London seat, and in terms of voter share, the Lib Dems did very well in London. However, they only gained 2 seats in London (including St Albans) and these gains were offset by three lost seats elsewhere.

It's actually hard to get a detailed picture of the Lib Dem results because there was so much switching around. I know that no one who switched parties is returning to Parliament, but there's no list that I've seen of what happened to the temporary gains. For that matter, I can see that the Liberal Democrats won three new seats, which means they lost four, but besides Jo Swinson, I can't see what the other three are.
  #203  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:19 AM
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So my BFF lives over there, she is extremely disabled and cannot live without medication. Do you think once the NHS is sold that they will create new limited welfare programs for the worst off who can't work at all? Or will everyone who can't get a good enough job to afford their medication just die now? I'm trying to help her not panic, but I don't know if there is any actual hope to give her. Even in the US we have programs for the worst off, still. Trump hasn't gotten rid of everything yet. I don't know if he just hasn't been in office long enough, or if the most extreme disabled will almost always be safe. Does anyone have any idea how bad it's going to get?
  #204  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:23 AM
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Luciana Berger was the LibDem candidate.

Now, to other questions on the fallout - which ejected MP should we expect to see in next year's Strictly Come Dancing? Jo Swinson? Zac Goldsmith? Nigel Dodds?
Zac Goldsmith lost?? How did I miss this! Every cloud has a sparkly lining. Just about rescued my weekend, that.

Last edited by SanVito; 12-13-2019 at 07:23 AM.
  #205  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:23 AM
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His smears are all his own doing because the record shows what he has said and done, the views he's held, the policies he espouses, the people he associates with and those he refuses to distance himself from.
But they weren't. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Corbyn - his utter lack of leadership either of his own party or as Leader of the Opposition, and some odd policies (I mean, "a four-day week"? Really?) and his own lacklustre media strategy. But those weren't what was being bandied about - what was being circulated and rehashed over and over were gross misrepresentations and outright lies about "what he has said and done, the views he's held, the policies he espouses, the people he associates with and those he refuses to distance himself from". He was portrayed as a Maoist extremist for wanting to privatise rail, water, mail services, policies that would have placed the UK on par with the leftist hellhole of...Ireland. References to his association with "terrorists" always seemed to lack context for why he was talking to them (hint: not because he secretly admired them). His policies were far better costed out than the Conservatives' were, yet Labour spending plans were consistently portrayed as profligate while Conservative ones were represented as "investments".

And where was the same level of scrutiny of Boris Johnson, a man literally fired from a previous job for lying? His tenure as mayor was a disaster; he closed fire and police stations right and left and wasted tens of millions on a garden bridge no one wanted but which would have benefited his rich cronies. His tenure as Foreign Secretary was worse, with embarrassment after embarrassment culminating in him screwing up so badly he got a British citizen's Iranian prison sentence extended for three years (after doing absolutely nothing on her case for the previous 18 months). That last one should have gotten him shunned from all polite society, but then nothing about the society he moves in is "polite". He lied his way through the Brexit referendum, he lied his way through the Tory leadership contest and he lied his way through the latest campaign, and yet the reaction in the media was "Eh, that's just Boris".

And this is the point. Corbyn's issues were magnified, misrepresented and supplemented with pure bullshit. Johnson's were minimised or outright ignored. That is the problem here - not Labour v Tory, Johnson v Corbyn or even Leave v Remain - it's Truth v Lies, and Lies won the day hands down. And that wasn't Corbyn's fault.
  #206  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:30 AM
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So my BFF lives over there, she is extremely disabled and cannot live without medication. Do you think once the NHS is sold that they will create new limited welfare programs for the worst off who can't work at all? Or will everyone who can't get a good enough job to afford their medication just die now? I'm trying to help her not panic, but I don't know if there is any actual hope to give her. Even in the US we have programs for the worst off, still. Trump hasn't gotten rid of everything yet. I don't know if he just hasn't been in office long enough, or if the most extreme disabled will almost always be safe. Does anyone have any idea how bad it's going to get?
I don't know what to tell you that won't dishearten you, except to say that it's already pretty bad. Your BFF may more likely be aware of the potential issues than we are; of board members SciFiSam will likely have more directly relevant info but I obviously can't commit her to a response.
  #207  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by TheMysteryWriter View Post
So my BFF lives over there, she is extremely disabled and cannot live without medication. Do you think once the NHS is sold that they will create new limited welfare programs for the worst off who can't work at all? Or will everyone who can't get a good enough job to afford their medication just die now? I'm trying to help her not panic, but I don't know if there is any actual hope to give her. Even in the US we have programs for the worst off, still. Trump hasn't gotten rid of everything yet. I don't know if he just hasn't been in office long enough, or if the most extreme disabled will almost always be safe. Does anyone have any idea how bad it's going to get?

I think we all need to calm down - there's no indication that the NHS will be sold and people with long term disabilities don't pay for medication as it stands. We're worried about underfunding and increasing costs, but there's no suggestion that we'll all have to start paying for medication at US levels.The NHS is still a large negotiating block on drug prices.

Last edited by SanVito; 12-13-2019 at 07:43 AM.
  #208  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:45 AM
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I don't know what to tell you that won't dishearten you, except to say that it's already pretty bad. Your BFF may more likely be aware of the potential issues than we are; of board members SciFiSam will likely have more directly relevant info but I obviously can't commit her to a response.
Thanks for replying, anyway. I was just grasping at straws, hoping someone here would know something positive. I wish evil people didn't exist.
  #209  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:57 AM
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Agree with SanVito - I think the creeping privatisation of the NHS will continue (just as with many other public services), but while I'm not particularly in favour of that I don't think it means it will radically change overnight. In particular I think prescriptions will remain modestly priced (and free for those who need them to be) for a very long time.

Gyrate, while I largely agree with you, I think there was also a significant portion of the electorate (me, for one, though I didn't vote Tory as I do feel this campaign was a new low for them in fabrication, and that's not what I want to see) who did not believe the propaganda about Corbyn and know Johnson is a selfish charlatan - and yet still believe Johnson would be a better Prime Minister than Corbyn. So while you are right to rail against everything you mention, I think it is also fair to point a finger at Corbyn and Labour's failings.

Last edited by Dead Cat; 12-13-2019 at 07:58 AM.
  #210  
Old 12-13-2019, 08:00 AM
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We do know that the civil servants here are assuming the US will want medication prices as paid by the NHS on the table as and when negotiations get under way on a trade deal. What that would mean, in terms of availability and possible supplementary charges, simply cannot be predicted until such negotiations get under way.

We also know that sub-contracting of NHS services already includes some US companies, which isn't of itself the same as selling it all off and letting commercial companies make patients pay. However, trade deals have in the past included provisions that might allow commercial companies to use dispute resolution tribunals to force opening up public services to commercial competition.

There are some people in the Tory party who want to move to an insurance-based, rather than taxation-based, model. This has always been assumed to be a political kiss of death if taken seriously; hence repeated promises that none of this is on the table. But who knows how emboldened such people might be now, or what Johnson's trade negotiators might be forced to concede?
  #211  
Old 12-13-2019, 08:09 AM
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And where was the same level of scrutiny of Boris Johnson,
This is Boris Johnson right? A man ridiculed and dismissed by the press for the last 20+ years, that Boris Johnson? How do you or I know about those idiotic things he's done or said?

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And this is the point. Corbyn's issues were magnified, misrepresented and supplemented with pure bullshit. Johnson's were minimised or outright ignored. That is the problem here - not Labour v Tory, Johnson v Corbyn or even Leave v Remain - it's Truth v Lies, and Lies won the day hands down. And that wasn't Corbyn's fault.
I'd say your perception is seriously skewed. Every mis-step of Boris was trumpeted loudly. Which of them were not? how do you know about them if they were minimised or ignored? He's a buffoon and has been painted as one for ever. and everyone knows it.
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  #212  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:02 AM
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Wait, I thought these elections were about Brexit. Why is everyone taking about the NHS?
  #213  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:07 AM
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If trade renegotiations do not go well with the EU there might be a need for closer trade relations with the US, and the conditions for such a deal might involve opening up the health care industry to competition (i.e. from US corporations) which would involve weakening the NHS. ETA in addition to any internal privatization tendencies that the Conservatives with a "mandate" might push forward which I am not aware of.

Last edited by Ludovic; 12-13-2019 at 09:09 AM.
  #214  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:09 AM
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Whoosh!
  #215  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:42 AM
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I'm going to have to disagree. Rural areas were economically populist( and they still sorta are ), which during and post-New Deal meant poor rural whites generally aligned with liberal urban whites and minorities for a few decades in a coalition of sort. But that did not imply leftist ideology, or at least not the type of social liberalism usually associated with leftist views. Many, many southern Democrats were fervent racists and segregationists.
Thats accurate. I wasn't too clear in my original post. Rural areas tended to be socially conservative and economically liberal under FDR, but when the democrats stood up for civil rights starting in the 50s and 60s, rural whites abandoned the democrats and became republicans who were both economically and socially conservative.

southern democrats voted against civil rights, but they voted for things like social security, the new deal, medicare, medicaid, etc.
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  #216  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:46 AM
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Abandoning identity politics and wokeness in favor of the old traditional "treat everyone the same" goal would definitely make me more likely to be a Democrat.
To me thats confusing, because identity politics on the left is largely (from what I see) a response to identity politics on the right.

On the right they push a narrative of social hierarchies and that some groups are more authentic and more deserving of dignity, respect and rights than others.

The left is to a large degree a coalition of the out-groups that are rejected by the right, and their allies. Non-whites, non-heterosexuals, women, non-christians, immigrants, etc banding together to protect their rights and dignity from assault by the right.

I don't understand why rejection of identity politics would make someone a republican. The entire republican platform is identity politics (fear and resentment towards out-groups). If you watch fox news, its pretty much all fear, rejection and resentment towards out-groups. Scary muslims, scary immigrants, scary black people, uppity women, etc.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 12-13-2019 at 09:47 AM.
  #217  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:02 AM
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Keep thinking like that and you'll keep helping the Tories win.
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Yes, it's our fault that other people believe lies, and its our fault that their feelings are hurt when we point out that they are believing lies, and it's our fault that they applaud and enable open corruption in politicians they like and eschew any responsibility for holding them accountable. And when the consequences of their actions occur, they'll claim that that's all our fault too.
Gyrate

.....and you continue to post in a manner that will keep the Tories in power - first thing you need to learn about politics is that your own activists are a terrible source of direction - you always need to look at your opponents and understand why they are gaining support.

Labour activists convinced themselves and each other, they spent all their time talking to the wrong people.

Standing at the pulpit trying to convert your congregation will not bring the heathens through the doors - and that is largely what Labour activists did - instead of talking to the people they need to convince.

As for your comment on the electorate believing lies after lies - I think its fair to say that the part of social media where I inhabit was absolutely full of vile lies about Johnson and utterly misrepresented both the Leave voter and the Tories and those who might vote Tory.

Think about this, I've been around a long time, and I am clued up enough to know when I am being lied to - and that is the position of many voters - for you to imply that we are so naive and clueless, or perhaps bordering on evil and selfish that we can't separate wheat from chaff is simply a continuation of the insult.

Many of have been Labour voters for generations, I have seen groups such as Left Unity and Momentum close up - very very close up indeed - for years and I really do not like what I see. Their vile methods are every bit as bad as nepotism and anyone who expresses mild concern and suggest alternatives get slaughtered on Twitter and Instagram.

You want a change then you need to get Labour to work for my vote - In my constituency the swing was 21% away from Labour, Yvette Cooper got in by the skin of her teeth losing most of her 14k majority - and that is simply down to her insistence of blocking Leave when her mandate in her seat was 70%.

If the electorate goes against the wishes of the party, it is not because they are scared or gullible and intellectually too feeble to discern how they should have voted, its because the party does not represent them and they pay the cost - too many Labour safe seats seem to take us for granted. well hard luck.

There will be a bounceback at the next election - but only if people such as yourself and Labour representatives stop giving out wish list policies, and deciding how the electorate should vote - you have it the wrong way around - we didn't vote wrongly, Labour went in the wrong direction.

Before you try to write off everything I have posted as some reactionary and illogical message - cross over the divide for a few seconds, why did I really vote against Labour - me - a long standing mid level trade union rep with a lifelong habit of voting Labour, having stood on windswept plazas handing out leaflets, freezing cold, gone around door to door posting more campaign leaflets, written reports and contributions to union policy bodies, attended and voted at conference and proposed motions and had them adopted.

I am as cynical as they come, but I see the people controlling Labour and it is not pretty, its a thread I've seen go right the way down through the union where I have seen very senior activists promoting Hugo Chavez, Cuba Solidarity, pro Palestinian groups when my members have been getting no pay rise for years upon years - the same members who wonder what the hell has Cuba, or Venezuela has to do with their poll tax or their pay rise - and when I have gathered their views in a coherant manner and asked about things like this I just get stared down and find it extremely difficult to get my members views across in a room full of Communist activists who are Bang On Right On.

You want to know why Labour has lost so much support - don't decry me, and don't decry the voters - its all the making of Labour, not backing a democratic referendum vote, going directly against the wishes of its members in regions such as South Yorkshire.

Look at what I have posted about Labour failures, it will not be the gospel by any means and I accept some of my reality is not your reality - read my perceptions, try to understand why I think the way I do - but for crying out loud - DO NOT TELL ME I AM WRONG because blaming the electorate is about the most stupid thing any political party can ever do

Last edited by casdave; 12-13-2019 at 10:03 AM.
  #218  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:21 AM
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Well said Casdave, I'm not a labour activist but I know people who have been and have had much the same experience as you.

As for the electorate? Would that be the same electorate who were apparently so easily hoodwinked in England by tory tricks and media but when provided with a coherent and credible alternative (the SNP for example) were somehow magically able see through the lies and spin? Are Scottish people somehow much more perceptive and intelligent? Or is it more likely (and much less condescending) to accept that people are able to decide what appeals to them and able to take a grown-up decision all on their own and judge the offerings on their own merits.

Rhetorical questions of course Casdave, not aimed at you.
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  #219  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:39 AM
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There will be a bounceback at the next election - but only if people such as yourself and Labour representatives stop giving out wish list policies, and deciding how the electorate should vote - you have it the wrong way around - we didn't vote wrongly, Labour went in the wrong direction.
I doubt we'd agree on much politically, casdave, but this last is certainly true - we can only vote for what's in front of us, and Labour were not electable. For Brexit, they only offered more uncertainty for both sides and the large number of Labour voters who wanted to Leave went straight over.

I still believe that the UK is better off in the EU than out of it, but I now believe that we will leave the EU early next year. That certainty will help.
  #220  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:46 AM
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Are Scottish people somehow much more perceptive and intelligent?
I hesitate to say...

casdave is right about the state of the Party - and many of the unions too- these days though. It's the same old SWP/Militant/<insert far-left micro-groupuscule here> headbangers that Kinnock thought he had finally purged.
  #221  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:05 AM
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Here's CNN's early overview of the results: https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/13/uk/ge...and/index.html
  #222  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:34 AM
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I doubt we'd agree on much politically, casdave, but this last is certainly true - we can only vote for what's in front of us, and Labour were not electable. For Brexit, they only offered more uncertainty for both sides and the large number of Labour voters who wanted to Leave went straight over.

I still believe that the UK is better off in the EU than out of it, but I now believe that we will leave the EU early next year. That certainty will help.
If weíre looking to the future, then what Labour should be doing right now is writing down every single one of Boris Johnsonís promises, and then hounding him over the next five years to ensure he delivers on those promises. I suppose that could backfire if Johnson does actually deliver everything he promises. However, 1) it would be good for the country if he did so, and 2) Johnson has a habit of glibly promising listeners whatever he thinks they want to hear so it will be unlikely heíll deliver everything he says he will. It seems like the voters gave Johnson a pass on being dishonest and unreliable in this election. I donít think theyíll give him a pass for the next five years.
  #223  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:37 AM
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If Labour hold Boris to account then we all get what we want - Labour gets policies that it promotes and the population benefits - but of course Labour isn't interested in the policies as such, it just wants power
  #224  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:39 AM
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And yet rose Twitter (UK) is still living in LaLa land, blaming the media and Blairites. Everyone told you they hated Corbyn, maybe you should listen. But no, they continued on with the purity purges (How many shadow cabinet shakeups and resignations?) For the fringe, not the many isn’t a way to win a FPTP election.

And yes, you’d have to be a fool not to understand that Brexit fatigue is a real thing. A lot of people just don’t want to hear that damn word ever again. Perhaps a Labour platform of we’re revoking Article 50 and no new referendum for at least ten years would have given people something to vote for rather than Corbyn waffles.
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  #225  
Old 12-13-2019, 12:28 PM
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If Labour hold Boris to account then we all get what we want - Labour gets policies that it promotes and the population benefits - but of course Labour isn't interested in the policies as such, it just wants power
A charge that could never be aimed at the Tories (or any other politician's), oh no.
  #226  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:02 PM
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I think we all need to calm down - there's no indication that the NHS will be sold and people with long term disabilities don't pay for medication as it stands. We're worried about underfunding and increasing costs, but there's no suggestion that we'll all have to start paying for medication at US levels.The NHS is still a large negotiating block on drug prices.
Not quite true about prescriptions. People with long-term disabilities don't get free prescriptions unless they have one of a very limited set of conditions (diabetes, thyroid disease, cancer, and some people with epilepsy, plus a couple of less common conditions). Losing a limb, using a wheelchair full time, being blind, etc - those do not entitle you to free prescriptions. Some disabled people might be eligible for free prescriptions due to low income, but people without disabilities are also entitled to apply for an exemption on income grounds - disability has nothing to do with it.

I agree that we won't have to start paying for medication at US levels though, not as individuals. The concern is that the NHS will have to start paying more, and it's already underfunded and tightly stretched. Waiting times are conditions at hospitals are pretty much guaranteed to get worse, and I don't think many Tory supporters even deny that.

Private companies have been handed a lot of contracts in recent years, so it's not like fears of privatisation are unfounded.

The mandate the Tories have been handed, and the way the NHS was a main feature of the Labour campaign but didn't win them votes, that does make me concerned that back-door privatisation might proceed fairly quickly, because the elements within the Tory party that want it will feel like they've been given permission to go ahead.

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This is Boris Johnson right? A man ridiculed and dismissed by the press for the last 20+ years, that Boris Johnson? How do you or I know about those idiotic things he's done or said?



I'd say your perception is seriously skewed. Every mis-step of Boris was trumpeted loudly. Which of them were not? how do you know about them if they were minimised or ignored? He's a buffoon and has been painted as one for ever. and everyone knows it.
He has been ridiculed for being a buffoon, and that's distracted the press from writing very much about his actual faults. The Conservatives, for example, also have a problem with anti-semitism; for example, their candidate in Aberdeen was suspended for saying that some of the events in the Holocaust were fabricated. (Link. If that had been a prospective Labour MP, that story would have been way bigger than it was.

Pretty much every mis-step both leaders and their parties made was reported, but the volume of articles that were against Corbyn was far larger. For example:

Quote:
In addition, almost twice as much unchallenged airtime was given to people criticising Mr Corbyn than his allies on the BBC
From here: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7163706.html

But it was Brexit that cost Labour the votes more than anything else, going on what I've seen people who used to vote Labour say. Labour were proposing to strike a deal and then give people a referendum on that deal, which seems like a sensible approach to me. But an awful lot of people just want Brexit at any cost. And a lot of Labour supporters and people who vote between Labour the LibDems would have turned against them if they went out and out pro-Brexit, so there was no way for them to win, really.

The LibDems didn't do very well either, while running on a strong remain platform. Their own leader lost her seat. That's a pretty good indication that Brexit was the main issue.

Oh and Scotland was lost to the SNP, basically. They have popular policies and a strong leader and have been getting stronger and stronger for the past few years. Labour didn't do well there, but neither did the Tories - both lost seats and vote share to the SNP, with Labour losing more of both. Scotland voted 62% in favour of remain in the referendum. In general in England and Wales there's been a strong correlation between leave votes and Tory votes.
  #227  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:09 PM
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And yet rose Twitter (UK) is still living in LaLa land, blaming the media and Blairites. Everyone told you they hated Corbyn, maybe you should listen. But no, they continued on with the purity purges (How many shadow cabinet shakeups and resignations?) For the fringe, not the many isnít a way to win a FPTP election.

And yes, youíd have to be a fool not to understand that Brexit fatigue is a real thing. A lot of people just donít want to hear that damn word ever again. Perhaps a Labour platform of weíre revoking Article 50 and no new referendum for at least ten years would have given people something to vote for rather than Corbyn waffles.
Purges? Boris sacked 21 MPs just a few months ago! If Labour are guilty of moving to the fringes, then so are the Tories. Why would you bring it up as a point only against Labour when the Tories have been at least as bad?

The LibDems did campaign on a platform of revoking article 50, and they did badly in an election where they should have been poised to do well.
  #228  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:09 PM
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And yet rose Twitter (UK) is still living in LaLa land, blaming the media and Blairites. Everyone told you they hated Corbyn, maybe you should listen. But no, they continued on with the purity purges (How many shadow cabinet shakeups and resignations?) For the fringe, not the many isnít a way to win a FPTP election.
And though Labour recorded their worst results in 80 years, who is still clinging on to their position? He seems to have zero self-awareness as to where the problem lies. I find it astonishing that he hasn't resigned yet.
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  #229  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:13 PM
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I find it astonishing that he hasn't resigned yet.
He's got to wait until Seumas, Andrew and Len decide what to do.
  #230  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:46 PM
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The LibDems didn't do very well either, while running on a strong remain platform.
That is one interpretation of their position, now look at this through the lens of the Leave voter - the majority in England.

What you are actually saying to the Leave voter is not 'a strong Remain platform', what they get from that is the the LibDems have made it a party policy to ignore the democratic wishes of the majority - in other words a political hijack in an attempt to garner support to compel a majority to live under a minority rule.

I do think that the LibDems did believe it was a Remain platform - it was nothing of the sort, it was an attempted coup.

Its that lack of being able to look at the world from the viewpoint of the other side of the debate that has done for them, same as Labour.
  #231  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:58 PM
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And though Labour recorded their worst results in 80 years, who is still clinging on to their position? He seems to have zero self-awareness as to where the problem lies. I find it astonishing that he hasn't resigned yet.
He has said he's standing down. It's been less than a day since the results.

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Originally Posted by casdave View Post
ScifiSam



That is one interpretation of their position, now look at this through the lens of the Leave voter - the majority in England.

What you are actually saying to the Leave voter is not 'a strong Remain platform', what they get from that is the the LibDems have made it a party policy to ignore the democratic wishes of the majority - in other words a political hijack in an attempt to garner support to compel a majority to live under a minority rule.

I do think that the LibDems did believe it was a Remain platform - it was nothing of the sort, it was an attempted coup.

Its that lack of being able to look at the world from the viewpoint of the other side of the debate that has done for them, same as Labour.
You're reading a lot of things in there that I never said. The LibDems had a strong remain platform in the sense that they were strongly against Brexit. That's it. I'm not saying anything to the leave voter other than that the LibDems campaigned on a platform of remaining, which is factually true. It's a bit odd to take offence at that.
  #232  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:13 PM
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Sorry but I am not trying to interpret you directly - what I am trying to do is try imagine how an angry Leave voter might have viewed your statement about the LibDem position, rather than anything that you intended.

I do not dispute what you have posted - nor your intention, but look at it from the viewpoint of someone 180 degrees away who brings their own baggage with them.

Its that inability of the opposition to see themselves as others see them that has led to their downfall, instead they saw themselves in the way they would like to be seen - a very different thing and the reason they still cannot understand why they were unable to communicate their message effectively.
  #233  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:23 PM
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He has said he's standing down. It's been less than a day since the results.
I don't think any other leader, when faced with such a historical defeat of such a clearly personal nature, would wait any longer than lunchtime.

However, I'm not surprised in the least that he hasn't gone at once, it is entirely in keeping with his vanity.
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  #234  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:18 PM
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Sorry but I am not trying to interpret you directly - what I am trying to do is try imagine how an angry Leave voter might have viewed your statement about the LibDem position, rather than anything that you intended.

I do not dispute what you have posted - nor your intention, but look at it from the viewpoint of someone 180 degrees away who brings their own baggage with them.

Its that inability of the opposition to see themselves as others see them that has led to their downfall, instead they saw themselves in the way they would like to be seen - a very different thing and the reason they still cannot understand why they were unable to communicate their message effectively.
OK, I get where you're coming from, but I don't think even angry leave voters would have reacted that way. Leave voters aren't automatically stupid just because they voted leave, and the stupid ones don't tend to analyse sentences in great depth.

Plus I'm not 180 degrees away from leave voters - I voted remain and would do so again, but there are some problems with the EU and I'm not blind to them.

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I don't think any other leader, when faced with such a historical defeat of such a clearly personal nature, would wait any longer than lunchtime.

However, I'm not surprised in the least that he hasn't gone at once, it is entirely in keeping with his vanity.
But he hasn't. He's said he's standing down. He hasn't done an official resignation speech yet, but he's made it clear that he's leaving. David Cameron started this whole mess, campaigned strongly for remain, and lost, and he took a couple of weeks to resign, and that's the closest comparison in living memory.

Cameron's delay was partly due to timing, coming during the summer parliamentary recess, and similar problems present when electing a new leader of the Labour party over Christmas. Parliament will be recessed for two weeks over Christmas, and there won't be any PMQs before then due to the need to have sessions to formally announce the new parliament. It's not a good time of year for parties to start up leadership campaigns and the new leader won't be doing anything other than ceremonial in parliament at all.

Taking on the Labour leadership right now is a poisoned chalice. It'll be five years till the next general election, and the person who leads Labour then is unlikely to be the person who takes on the role now, due to the amount of rebuilding that will need to take place.
  #235  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:49 PM
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But he hasn't. He's said he's standing down. He hasn't done an official resignation speech yet, but he's made it clear that he's leaving. David Cameron started this whole mess, campaigned strongly for remain, and lost, and he took a couple of weeks to resign, and that's the closest comparison in living memory.
Not the same thing at all. Cameron did not lose an election.
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Last edited by Novelty Bobble; 12-13-2019 at 03:50 PM.
  #236  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:02 PM
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A new thread on the next Labour leader: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=886779
  #237  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:05 PM
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Not the same thing at all. Cameron did not lose an election.
What other comparison are you thinking of then? When has any leader ever stood down by lunchtime on the same day the results are announced?

It's a shit time of year for Labour to run a campaign for a new leader, and there's no automatic candidate. There aren't going to be any PMQs, local elections, or anything serious for quite a while. It's better for Corbyn to ride out this time and take the flack for his failure to win people over rather than leave straight away and let someone else take all those problems on and probably poison their own future career.

If he'd left straight away people would be criticising him for leaving whatever interrim leader there was to deal with his mess.
  #238  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:25 PM
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What other comparison are you thinking of then? When has any leader ever stood down by lunchtime on the same day the results are announced?
The difficulty with a direct comparison is finding a two-time loser political leader of historic unpopularity that has suffered such a humiliating defeat and that is based largely on their own personal qualities. I'm not sure one exists. It was humiliating.
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  #239  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:34 PM
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Yes, it's our fault that other people believe lies, and its our fault that their feelings are hurt when we point out that they are believing lies, and it's our fault that they applaud and enable open corruption in politicians they like and eschew any responsibility for holding them accountable. And when the consequences of their actions occur, they'll claim that that's all our fault too.
The fault is in acting smugly pious and morally superior to a huge swathe - possibly an outright majority - of the people whose votes Labour needs to win.

The vox pops on radio 5 today showed this as clear as day: the red wall collapsed as life-long Labour voters stayed at home or switched to the Tories because the latter tried to offer them what they wanted instead of insulting them for wanting the wrong things.

Most of them are never going to like or trust the Tories, but they'll sure as hell won't back a Labour Party that keeps calling them stupid and/or evil.
  #240  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:49 PM
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Looking at the same issue from a slightly different perspective, one of the best comments I heard about the loss of northern towns was that the Labour leadership treats people up there like children. There's a profound sense that the defence of their interests is up with the most important purposes of the party, but an equally profound sense that they can't be trusted to judge those interests for themselves.
  #241  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:51 PM
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Ed Miliband barely lost in 2015 and stood down immediately. Corbyn could give 3/4 of a flying fuck about actually becoming PM, his goal from the get go was to purify Labour and drive out every evil Blairite. He was bent over and spanked on his bare ass last night. It’s time for him to pull up his trousers and go!
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  #242  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:52 PM
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The difficulty with a direct comparison is finding a two-time loser political leader of historic unpopularity that has suffered such a humiliating defeat and that is based largely on their own personal qualities. I'm not sure one exists. It was humiliating.
Yeah, it was, but that also means there's no real comparison for standing down immediately in the same circumstances. I don't think there's been a leader of a political party that won an election with such a landslide so shortly after becoming leader, either. We are living in interesting times.

(Assuming we're both talking in the UK within living memory, obvs. Otherwise there are probably dozens of examples of both but they don't mean much for this conversation).

Though I'd strongly dispute that the loss was largely down to Corbyn's personal attributes. The spread of votes makes that unlikely. It was Brexit.

Mrs McGinty - one of the things that really annoyed me about the media was exactly that superiority complex, especially in the Brexit referendum. But the thing is that a lot of those commentators aren't Labour at all, they're LibDem or undecided. Supposedly left wing newspapers like the Guardian hated Corbyn and talked down to working class people at the same time.
  #243  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:14 PM
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Another interesting idea was that the old mining towns have got fed up with being told to feel sorry for themselves. Thatcher won, and while the rest of the country has moved on, Labour has continued to treat them as little more than charity cases and reliable loci of anti-Tory sentiment. From this perspective, voting for both Brexit and the Tories who promise it represents a break from stasis. Since the Tories keep ending up in power anyway, there is a sense that at least those towns will have someone in government who has to give a shit what happens there, and who will be motivated to press for something more aspirational than mere sympathy.

And they might even be right. Having won off their backs, Johnson will have it high on his list of priorities to be seen as delivering tangible benefits to those places before the next election. The Tories can't win in the big cities - which is one reason why the urban poor are the people most endangered by this result - but there are certainly ways in which they can promote new economic activity in the towns that turned blue this time.
  #244  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:18 PM
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Did he promise to bring coal mining back?
  #245  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:39 PM
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... Since the Tories keep ending up in power anyway, there is a sense that at least those towns will have someone in government who has to give a shit what happens there, and who will be motivated to press for something more aspirational than mere sympathy.

And they might even be right. Having won off their backs, Johnson will have it high on his list of priorities to be seen as delivering tangible benefits to those places before the next election. The Tories can't win in the big cities - which is one reason why the urban poor are the people most endangered by this result - but there are certainly ways in which they can promote new economic activity in the towns that turned blue this time.
There's no need to improve neglected northern towns though; just convince them, yet again, that the real problem is anything except failed Thatcherite trickle-down economics. Job done.
  #246  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:40 PM
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Mrs McGinty - one of the things that really annoyed me about the media was exactly that superiority complex, especially in the Brexit referendum. But the thing is that a lot of those commentators aren't Labour at all, they're LibDem or undecided. Supposedly left wing newspapers like the Guardian hated Corbyn and talked down to working class people at the same time.
You're absolutely right that it goes way beyond Labour, and that Lib Dems were equally culpable. The thing is, though, it's not and will never be their constituency. They weren't chasing those votes. Labour was.

On the Guardian, I'm afraid you're just reading the half of the story that fits with the Corbynite excuse. Both in terms of its writers and those who comment on their pieces, the paper has been quite finely balanced between pro- and anti-Corbyn perspectives. And on both sides there have been those who talked down the leave voters, and those who appealed for a more considered approach.

From the perspective of the working class leave voter, the distinction between the two groups matters little. But when you combine the general vibe with Corbyn's North London worldview, his waffling indecision on brexit, and his life-long anti-patriotism, what you end up with is something close to a perfect storm of perceived condescension.
  #247  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:45 PM
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Another interesting idea was that the old mining towns have got fed up with being told to feel sorry for themselves. Thatcher won, and while the rest of the country has moved on, Labour has continued to treat them as little more than charity cases and reliable loci of anti-Tory sentiment. From this perspective, voting for both Brexit and the Tories who promise it represents a break from stasis. Since the Tories keep ending up in power anyway, there is a sense that at least those towns will have someone in government who has to give a shit what happens there, and who will be motivated to press for something more aspirational than mere sympathy.

And they might even be right. Having won off their backs, Johnson will have it high on his list of priorities to be seen as delivering tangible benefits to those places before the next election. The Tories can't win in the big cities - which is one reason why the urban poor are the people most endangered by this result - but there are certainly ways in which they can promote new economic activity in the towns that turned blue this time.
There's some truth in your first paragraph. Nobody likes being taken for granted.

The Tories won't suddenly start helping out those communities, although it'd be nice to think they might. They don't even make any effort to help long-lasting working class Tory strongholds in the South East, many of which used to be industrial, like most of the towns along the Thames estuary.
  #248  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:49 PM
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Supposedly left wing newspapers like the Guardian hated Corbyn
Is that the same Guardian that's been publishing Owen Jones, Ellie Mae O'Hagan and Dawn Foster for years? Not to mention the other Corbyn outriders?

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and talked down to working class people at the same time.
This is true though, the Guardian has never been a paper aimed at the working class
  #249  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:59 PM
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There's no need to improve neglected northern towns though; just convince them, yet again, that the real problem is anything except failed Thatcherite trickle-down economics. Job done.
This is far too reductionist.

For one thing, Thatcherite economics are not the sole cause of their problems. That shit has been in force everywhere, but these towns have suffered far more than the rest of the country, while the reliably Tory-voting towns in the midlands and south have mostly done quite nicely out of it.

For another thing, the voters in those towns aren't stupid. They know the Tories aren't on their side by instinct. Mistrust of their intentions is still in full force. Street interviews I heard today frequently featured something to the effect of "brexit + corbyn = reluctantly give the blues a chance, but stand ready to vote the bastards right back out again if they don't deliver".
  #250  
Old 12-13-2019, 06:23 PM
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The Tories won't suddenly start helping out those communities, although it'd be nice to think they might. They don't even make any effort to help long-lasting working class Tory strongholds in the South East, many of which used to be industrial, like most of the towns along the Thames estuary.
My wife's family live around there, and from what I've seen the towns along the estuary are brutal if you're in genuine poverty - the cost of housing being the main problem - but most people are in fact pretty comfortable.

The Tories are never going to give a shit about the poor. But they are very much inclined to help those with aspirations to move from the working class to the middle class, and Thatcherite economics allowed a hell of a lot of people in those southern towns to do so.

As much as you and I might wish them to vote with more altruistic reasons in mind, can you really blame people in those northern towns for having those same aspirations for themselves?
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