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Old 11-20-2019, 12:28 PM
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Is there a Democratic candidate for POTUS I can support?


My criteria include, but are not limited to:

1) Generally considered moderate on most issues.
2) No support for any form of gun ban, whether limited to "assault weapons" or not.
3) No support for any form of gun registration or licensing .
4) Support for legalization of marijuana is a plus, but I can live without it.

Unfortunately, I think criteria 2 & 3 eliminate the entire field, or at least the ones that have a real chance to be the nominee.
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Old 11-20-2019, 12:29 PM
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I'm not aware of any that meet your criteria.
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Old 11-20-2019, 12:30 PM
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My criteria include, but are not limited to:

1) Generally considered moderate on most issues.
2) No support for any form of gun ban, whether limited to "assault weapons" or not.
3) No support for any form of gun registration or licensing .
4) Support for legalization of marijuana is a plus, but I can live without it.

Unfortunately, I think criteria 2 & 3 eliminate the entire field, or at least the ones that have a real chance to be the nominee.
I'd be as happy as that proverbial pig in shit if there were such a candidate.
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Old 11-20-2019, 12:40 PM
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Are these issues really more important to you than all other issues combined? You'd rather lose health care, see us get into a war, and face a recession than register your gun with the government?
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Old 11-20-2019, 12:42 PM
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Are these issues really more important to you than all other issues combined? You'd rather lose health care, see us get into a war, and face a recession than register your gun with the government?
Did you skip #1?
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Old 11-20-2019, 12:45 PM
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Not sure what you mean by "lose health care". I'm not a fan of the "medicare for all" plans I've seen mentioned. We're already in a war, and have been for years. And all of my guns were lost in a tragic boating accident in January, 2009.
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Old 11-20-2019, 12:49 PM
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So on point number one, we have several Dem candidates whose policies are generally mainstream (Biden, Buttigieg at the top of the list). We have one Republican candidate whose policies are far outside the mainstream.

I'm not sure why the Democratic candidate has the burden of proof here. (Disregarding the other points for the moment.)

Last edited by Ravenman; 11-20-2019 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 12:52 PM
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Not sure what you mean by "lose health care". I'm not a fan of the "medicare for all" plans I've seen mentioned. We're already in a war, and have been for years. And all of my guns were lost in a tragic boating accident in January, 2009.
Wow, I wish I had done the same, since Obama came to my house straight from the inauguration and confiscated all my guns. Oh, wait, that's not what happened at all.
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Old 11-20-2019, 12:53 PM
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... all of my guns were lost in a tragic boating accident in January, 2009.
It was a bad time for a lot of (former) gun owners.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 11-20-2019 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 12:54 PM
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So on point number one, we have several Dem candidates whose policies are generally mainstream (Biden, Buttigieg at the top of the list). We have one Republican candidate whose policies are far outside the mainstream.

I'm not sure why the Democratic candidate has the burden of proof here. (Disregarding the other points for the moment.)
I'm looking for a candidate to support. Trump is a complete non-starter for me. Didn't vote for him last time, won't vote for him this time. I did have an opportunity to watch one of his rallies on television a few weeks ago. Sounded like he'd fit right in had he spoken in Berlin in 1938.

If I can't find a suitable Dem, I'll cast my ballot for a third party, likely Libertarian, or write myself in. Hence, this thread.
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:14 PM
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Ok, sounds like you know what you're looking to do already.

Last edited by Chingon; 11-20-2019 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:26 PM
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AFAIK, all Dem candidates are in favor of banning sales of 'assault weapons". If you already have one, that shouldnt affect you. And Trump was in favor of that also.

However, remember unless the Dems win the Senate (could happen), and have a solid majority in both houses (wont happen), no real gun control legislation will be passed. And the candidates know that, so they can posture a lot.
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:29 PM
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I would caution you not to let perfect be the enemy of the good.

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Old 11-20-2019, 01:48 PM
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I would caution you not to let perfect be the enemy of the good.
This is more of a case of not letting the turd be the enemy of the dungheap. All the choices are shit. I didn't vote for Trump last time and will not this time. He's a buffoon and I've disliked him since the 1980s. However, none of the possible Democratic candidates are people I would vote for, either. I've disliked Joe "Peckerhead" Biden since his first run at the Oval Office many years ago.
I too will vote 3rd party if the Democrats nominate any of the present likely candidates.

Last edited by Scumpup; 11-20-2019 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:50 PM
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Oh man!
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:51 PM
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This is more of a case of not letting the turd be the enemy of the dungheap. All the choices are shit. I didn't vote for Trump last time and will not this time. He's a buffoon and I've disliked him since the 1980s. However, none of the possible Democratic candidates are people I would vote for, either. I've disliked Joe "Peckerhead" Biden since his first run at the Oval Office many years ago.
I too will vote 3rd party if the Democrats nominate any of the present likely candidates.
And this is what got us four years of trump.
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:55 PM
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1) Generally considered moderate on most issues.
Define "moderate." Because from what I've seen from other posts on this board, "moderate" has a pretty wide range.
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:55 PM
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I’d say look beyond the platform and decide what you think they’d actually do in office. If McCain had won in 2008, does anyone really think he would have gone batshit on social issues? I doubt he would have made abortion and banning gay marriage over and over a focus of his presidency. It would have been all foreign policy along with dealing with the financial crisis.

As far as guns, although I don’t know Indiana’s deer season laws, I have lived in the Midwest a good chunk of my life and deer hunting is a big thing here. Pete Buttigieg, as a midwestern mayor, is hardly likely to make guns a focus of his presidency.
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:58 PM
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This is more of a case of not letting the turd be the enemy of the dungheap. All the choices are shit. I didn't vote for Trump last time and will not this time. He's a buffoon and I've disliked him since the 1980s. However, none of the possible Democratic candidates are people I would vote for, either. I've disliked Joe "Peckerhead" Biden since his first run at the Oval Office many years ago.
I too will vote 3rd party if the Democrats nominate any of the present likely candidates.
"All the choices are shit"

Maybe the problem is your expectations. There doesn't seem to be much of a political push from any direction for a candidate that would fit all of your expectations. This is politics. There will never exist a perfect candidate just like there will never exist a perfect person. At some point though, we have to make a choice, and voting 3rd party in many cases in 2016 *was* a vote for Trump.
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:00 PM
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The "Ooga Booga! Democrats are going to take away your guns!" meme has been sold to the public so effectively that IMHO there is nothing, and I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, that a D candidate could do or say that would convince people otherwise. So, that's kinda baked into any of these specious discussions, innit?
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:57 PM
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The "Ooga Booga! Democrats are going to take away your guns!" meme has been sold to the public so effectively that IMHO there is nothing, and I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, that a D candidate could do or say that would convince people otherwise. So, that's kinda baked into any of these specious discussions, innit?
Bullshit. It is the Dems themselves that are pushing "gun control". Beto was dumb enough to say something like "Yes, I am coming for your AR-15". All an acceptable candidate would have to say is something like "I support the 2nd Amendment. As President, I will veto any bill that purports to ban any type of gun, or any attempt to create a license/registration system." Ideally, that should be incorporated into the official party platform at the convention.
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:57 PM
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...Joe Walsh is a hard-right-tea-party-conservative who called Obama a Muslim and promoted birther conspiracies. I'm sure would agree on every single one of your red-line issues. (and full disclosure is running for the Republican nomination)

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Im a free-market, limited government conservative, but Id rather have a socialist in the White House than a dictator. Or a criminal.
https://twitter.com/WalshFreedom/sta...17463852216320

For me it would all come down to what you consider the stakes to be. Do you consider Trumps actions in office to be criminal? Do you think they are on the road to authoritarianism? If you do, then I think your first step has to be to either support his opponent in the primary process or to advocate for Donald Trump to step down. I think if your convictions are that important to you then don't look to the Democrats. They shouldn't have to compromise their value systems because you don't want to vote for Trump at the next election. Fight for your party. Fight for your country.

If that fails then its really up to you what you do next. I personally believe a vote for Trump is a vote for an escalation of the chaos you see now. That if Trump is re-elected then it will mean the eventual end of what most would consider to be "American democracy." I think that people like Joe Walsh can see this clearly. I hate almost everything that Walsh stands for. If (I lived in America) Walsh were ever to get elected I could imagine I would be opposing and protesting every single legislative initiative that he would put forward. But in a head-to-head with Trump Walsh would get my vote every single time. Even though I oppose him on some of my own red-line issues. The stakes for me are just that high.

The Democrats may do a lot of things if they get power but they will respect the constitution: even if that means they can't "take your guns" in a manner that the Supremes won't allow. A vote for the Democrats is a vote for the return to the status quo, a step back to normalcy IMHO. A step back from the brink.

As for who to support? Well out of the leading candidates the two that I personally think are the worse are Biden and Mayor Pete: so those are probably the two that you should support Neither would rock the boat, neither would do anything radical, both are running on being able to "reach across to the other side". Biden has a much bigger chance than the Mayor. So I would support him.

But if the only reason you are "looking across the aisle" is because you don't think Trump is fit to be President, then I hope that the Dems don't pick someone in the primaries to cater to a voter like you. And I mean that with all due respect. If you can't get your figurative house in order then the Dems shouldn't have to compromise to placate you. They should be picking whomever they think is the best to do the job (and if they think that person is someone I don't support like Biden or Mayor Pete, then so be it.)
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:03 PM
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"All the choices are shit"

Maybe the problem is your expectations. There doesn't seem to be much of a political push from any direction for a candidate that would fit all of your expectations. This is politics. There will never exist a perfect candidate just like there will never exist a perfect person. At some point though, we have to make a choice, and voting 3rd party in many cases in 2016 *was* a vote for Trump.
If I vote for the smaller pile, I am still voting for shit.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:05 PM
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The popularity of various forms of gun control (things like universal background checks are ~90% popular, IIRC) means that one party will always be in favor of more gun control, barring a massive shift in public opinion (or perhaps even more unlikely, actual passing of significant gun control legislation). If gun control is at the top of your issue list -- more important than mistreatment of women, migrant children, coherence and even a shred of integrity, decency, and honor in the White House, and many other issues -- then it's extremely unlikely you'll ever support a Democrat. The popularity of increased background checks and other gun control issues within the party means that a Democrat as the OP describes has pretty much zero chance of being nominated at present.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:09 PM
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Whelp, I guess you'll just have to vote for Trump then. Because it's someone else's fault for not giving you a right-wing Democrat to choose.

Just keep telling yourself... "NOT MY FAULT."
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:10 PM
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If I vote for the smaller pile, I am still voting for shit.
Maybe it isn't actually shit though.

The point is maybe, just maybe, there's a reason that there aren't any serious candidates that fit all of your expectations. You are entitled to your political preferences, but if nobody else wants that, then what is your next step? Just refuse to participate in the process altogether? Just go ahead and vote for the biggest piece of shit you can find?

Life (and Mick Jagger) teaches us that we can't always get what we want. But not getting exactly what we want isn't an excuse to go for the absolute worst thing we can have. Especially when everyone must live with our collective choices.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:11 PM
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But if the only reason you are "looking across the aisle" is because you don't think Trump is fit to be President, then I hope that the Dems don't pick someone in the primaries to cater to a voter like you. And I mean that with all due respect. If you can't get your figurative house in order then the Dems shouldn't have to compromise to placate you. They should be picking whomever they think is the best to do the job (and if they think that person is someone I don't support like Biden or Mayor Pete, then so be it.)
I'm not "looking across the aisle", whatever that means. I voted for several Dems in my state elections. Pro-gun Dems. I'd like to do that in 2020.

On a national level, Dems write off voters like me at their peril. There simply are not enough radical lefties out there to win a national election. They can't win without attracting those of us in the middle, and maybe some of us that lean to the right. Even Saint Obama warned them about going too far left, though I don't think he mentioned guns.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:18 PM
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The "Ooga Booga! Democrats are going to take away your guns!" meme has been sold to the public so effectively that IMHO there is nothing, and I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, that a D candidate could do or say that would convince people otherwise. So, that's kinda baked into any of these specious discussions, innit?
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Bullshit. It is the Dems themselves that are pushing "gun control".
Oh. "Gun control" = "Democrats are going to take away your guns!"

And if I accidentally bump into you in a crowded shopping mall, there's no difference between that and attempted murder, amirite?

My takeaway is that there's no pleasing someone like you, so why bother to try.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:22 PM
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My takeaway is that there's no pleasing someone like you, so why bother to try.
Fine, but let there be no whining and gnashing of teeth when Trump wins again, because the Dems failed to field an electable candidate. Again.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:22 PM
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On a national level, Dems write off voters like me at their peril. There simply are not enough radical lefties out there to win a national election.
Someone thinks they are awfully important.

2nd amendment absolutists are not the majority, why do you think you deserve to be treated as such?

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/10/74979...t-gun-violence

More importantly why should both candidates in the election be on your side of this issue when the American public as a whole is not? Why should your views hold supreme? Just because that's what you want?
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:23 PM
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All an acceptable candidate would have to say is something like "I support the 2nd Amendment. As President, I will veto any bill that purports to ban any type of gun, or any attempt to create a license/registration system." Ideally, that should be incorporated into the official party platform at the convention.
And if they had a D by their name, they still wouldn't get the vote, because reasons.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:25 PM
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Fine, but let there be no whining and gnashing of teeth when Trump wins again, because the Dems failed to field an electable candidate. Again.
Or because right leaning voters don't care about the future of our democracy or whether we actually control our own elections or if other countries will be in charge of choosing our leaders for us?

Can you please take some responsibility for your own choices and stop blaming everyone else. This is such a tired talking point and it's really about pointing blame at everyone else for your own shitty choices.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:26 PM
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On a national level, Dems write off voters like me at their peril.
No, because you're the sort of voter who claims you might vote for the right Dem, but when push comes to shove, there's no pleasing you.

And if we bend over backwards to please voters like you (and by and large fail to win their votes anyway), we'll probably lose more voters who'd have turned out for even a Biden-level bona fide Democrat but who won't show up for someone who'll sell the party out just to win someone like you.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:28 PM
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Which is the point. Then he can say "see libs, it's all your fault the guy I wanted and voted for, and that you opposed, got elected". Personal responsibility is only for others I guess.
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Last edited by Airbeck; 11-20-2019 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:29 PM
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Some Americans worry about guns too much, so I am delighted to see OP list four criteria only two of which are related to gun control. It's refreshing to find a voter not obsessed with that single issue.

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If I can't find a suitable Dem, I'll cast my ballot for a third party, likely Libertarian, or write myself in. Hence, this thread.
Suppose you lived in a swing state, and polling told you your vote might be decisive but the Libertarian would finish a distant third. Would you still throw your vote away?
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:31 PM
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S
More importantly why should both candidates in the election be on your side of this issue when the American public as a whole is not? Why should your views hold supreme? Just because that's what you want?
My vote goes to the candidate that most pleases me. Criteria to please me is listed, in part, in the OP.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:32 PM
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I'm pretty dumb that I need this explained to me, I guess...

But why the vehement opposition to gun registration? Guns aren't a big part of my life and I don't pretend to understand all the issues, but having to register your weapon just doesn't seem like a huge burden to me.

I'm sincerely asking because I want to understand, not trying to make a point.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:32 PM
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On a national level, Dems write off voters like me at their peril. There simply are not enough radical lefties out there to win a national election. They can't win without attracting those of us in the middle, and maybe some of us that lean to the right. Even Saint Obama warned them about going too far left, though I don't think he mentioned guns.
Well, Hillary Clinton is a pretty moderate Democrat, but Republicans have painted her as to the left of Che Guevara. Then when Dems have candidates like Warren and Bernie, suddenly Hillary looks pretty good, eh?
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:34 PM
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And if they had a D by their name, they still wouldn't get the vote, because reasons.
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Can you please take some responsibility for your own choices and stop blaming everyone else. This is such a tired talking point and it's really about pointing blame at everyone else for your own shitty choices.
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No, because you're the sort of voter who claims you might vote for the right Dem, but when push comes to shove, there's no pleasing you.
Read the fucking thread. Specifically post #27, where I clearly stated that I have voted for Dems quite recently, and would love to do so in 2020.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:35 PM
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Fine, but let there be no whining and gnashing of teeth when Trump wins again, because the Dems failed to field an electable candidate. Again.
The Dems came metaphorical inches away with a C+ candidate who had been demonized for decades. That doesn't mean it will be easy this time, but in order to win, all we have to do is a smidgen better than Hillary in WI, MI, and PA.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:36 PM
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My vote goes to the candidate that most pleases me. Criteria to please me is listed, in part, in the OP.
Then you have to take full responsibility for everything that comes with that vote.

You don't get to dictate to the entire country that they can only choose from those options that please you. Sorry but that is not how this country works. You make a choice, you take responsibility for that choice. This is a lesson we all should have learned in childhood.
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  #42  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:36 PM
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My criteria include, but are not limited to:

1) Generally considered moderate on most issues.
2) No support for any form of gun ban, whether limited to "assault weapons" or not.
3) No support for any form of gun registration or licensing .
4) Support for legalization of marijuana is a plus, but I can live without it.

Unfortunately, I think criteria 2 & 3 eliminate the entire field, or at least the ones that have a real chance to be the nominee.
3 eliminates Booty but, I'll note, 3 eliminates all the Republican candidates as well.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:37 PM
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Well, Hillary Clinton is a pretty moderate Democrat, but Republicans have painted her as to the left of Che Guevara. Then when Dems have candidates like Warren and Bernie, suddenly Hillary looks pretty good, eh?
No. Hillary was and is a horrible human being and is unworthy of elected office.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:38 PM
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The question should be, is voting a form of virtue-signaling? Is it a way to give a trophy to a candidate? Or is it a way of putting your hand on the trolley and pushing it onto a new track?

I'm firmly in the third camp. I don't give a shit about the self-esteem of the people running for president. I don't care about rewarding them or helping them attain their goals. I don't care about making sure my own hands are clean and not covered in pigshit.

I care about what happens due to our nation's government, what good or ill it does.

Way I see it, we have 130 million people pushing that trolley in all kinds of directions, but there's only two main tracks. and that trolley is 100% guaranteed to go on one of those two tracks. Maybe there's 5 people getting squashed on track 1 and 100 people squashed on track 2. Sure, nobody gets squashed on track 3, but that fucking trolley isn't gonna go on track 3, and if I push that way, I don't affect the process. My only actual choices are:
1) Push the trolley toward track 1.
2) Push the trolley toward track 2.
3) Don't give any meaningful push.

People who refuse to push toward track 1 because track 3 exists are making the decision to make track 2 more likely.
  #45  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:40 PM
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Read the fucking thread. Specifically post #27, where I clearly stated that I have voted for Dems quite recently, and would love to do so in 2020.
Trump is up for election, presumably, in 2020.

You are saying to the left that if we don't nominate someone to your liking then the country gets it in the form of Trump getting reelected, and its all our fault.

That is bullshit.
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Last edited by Airbeck; 11-20-2019 at 03:41 PM.
  #46  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
Trump is up for election, presumably, in 2020.

You are holding a gun to the left saying that if we don't nominate someone to your liking then the country gets it in the form of Trump getting reelected, and its all our fault.

That is bullshit.
But hey, his hands will be clean, so there's that!
  #47  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:40 PM
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Then you have to take full responsibility for everything that comes with that vote.

You don't get to dictate to the entire country that they can only choose from those options that please you. Sorry but that is not how this country works. You make a choice, you take responsibility for that choice. This is a lesson we all should have learned in childhood.
That's ridiculous. My candidate last time lost. My candidates in recent state elections lost. From a practical standpoint, whoever I vote for in 2020 won't matter. My state worships Trump like he's Jesus 2: Nazi Boogaloo. This state is going hard red no matter what. I'd just like to have a Dem candidate I can support...
  #48  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:42 PM
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That's ridiculous. My candidate last time lost. My candidates in recent state elections lost. From a practical standpoint, whoever I vote for in 2020 won't matter. My state worships Trump like he's Jesus 2: Nazi Boogaloo. This state is going hard red no matter what. I'd just like to have a Dem candidate I can support...
So this whole thread is moot then
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  #49  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:43 PM
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Trump is up for election, presumably, in 2020.

You are saying to the left that if we don't nominate someone to your liking then the country gets it in the form of Trump getting reelected, and its all our fault.

That is bullshit.
No, I'm not saying that. You need to have someone electable if you want to win. Dems can win without my vote, but not without the support of moderates--and Bernie or Warren ain't gonna pull moderate votes.
  #50  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
That's ridiculous. My candidate last time lost. My candidates in recent state elections lost. From a practical standpoint, whoever I vote for in 2020 won't matter. My state worships Trump like he's Jesus 2: Nazi Boogaloo. This state is going hard red no matter what. I'd just like to have a Dem candidate I can support...
Total freedom of gun ownership hasn't been policy by any mainstream party since, I'd venture to guess, before you were born.

I mean, no offense to you, but you are in essence saying, "I will only vote for an anarcho-libertarian. Why doesn't the non-anarcho-libertarian party not have any damn anarcho-libertarian candidates?"

Well....
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