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  #151  
Old 11-22-2019, 09:43 AM
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I got Warren on top with 95% and Trump on bottom with single digits. No surprise.
  #152  
Old 11-22-2019, 10:26 AM
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Mark Sanford was my top pick, followed by Kasich and, I believe Gary Johnson. Trump was in there somewhere in the top 5, but I didn't really scrutinize the entire list. Sanford's not even running, so I'll probably do what I did last time and vote for Evan McMullin.

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Congressional Republicans have completely lost their moral compass. They stand for nothing if not the defense of a man who clearly threatens the nation and their own power.
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A reminder that to be Never Trump is to be committed to human liberty and equality, decency, honor, truth and knowledge, U.S. sovereignty and security, free enterprise, responsible governance, the rule of law, free nation alliances, and finally, our powers of self-governance.
Works for me.
  #153  
Old 11-22-2019, 11:36 AM
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As far as the "Universal" background check goes, the media and politicans would want you to believe that there are *NO* background checks currently, and guns are as easy to obtain as a soda from a vending machine, this is *NOT* the case.

Background checks already exist, if you go to a gun store or go to a gun show and purchase from a dealer/vendor, you *MUST* fill out Federal Form 4473, and submit to a NICS (Nationa lInstant Check System) for a background check, this can take around 15 minutes to an hour depending on how busy the system is, there are three results;

Proceed; background check passed
Delayed; NICS needs more time to check, can take up to 3 days, if after 3 days no disqualifying issues are found, transaction is approved
Declined; background check failed, no reason is given to the customer, and often the decline is never investigated (which I think it should be, there's a reason for decline, maybe it's criminal activity, maybe it's a clerical error, maybe erroneous data that needs to be fixed.....)

Once the Proceed has been given, the sale can be completed, and you go home with your firearm.

buy a gun from a store? fill out the 4473, "Proceed", pay and go home.
Buy a gun from a vendor or seller at a gun show, same thing, pass the 4473

what politicians refer to as the "Gun Show Loophole" is actually a "Private Sale" between two individuals that does not take place at a retail establishment, and even that has some rules (which must be voluntarily followed)
1; buyer and seller must live in the same state, buyer from state A can only sell to other residents of state A
2; buyer must not think seller is a prohibited person (felon, domestic abuser, of poor moral character, etc.)
3; both buyer and seller must both be of legal age to own a firearm (no selling to kids)
4; buyer must be the owner of the gun being sold, no selling other peoples property

yes, this is reliant on both buyer and seller following the rules (which are common sense anyway), and the sale is under the seller's discretion in the first place, if i'm selling a gun face to face, and I don't feel like the seller is trustworthy, i'm not going to sell it...

what the "universal" check seeks to regulate are private sales, transfers between family members, gift giving, and loaning a firearm to a friend/acquaintance/family member, and seeks to create a "paper trail" so the government knows the location of every firearm and who owns what...

right now, if I wanted to loan/sell/give one of my firearms to a family member, I simply do so... "here, mom/nephew/sister, I think you'd like this gun/here, try my new gun/etc",, if I was handed down a firearm from a family member as a family heirloom, or if I wanted to hand down a gun to a family member, I simply do so, if I wanted to sell /loan/let try out a gun to a friend who I *know* is a legal, law-abiding citizen, I simply do so, no paperwork is needed, no background check is needed, the government doesn't need to know.

under a *universal* check system, *every one* of the above transactions would require the buyer and seller to go through some form of NICS style check system (perhaps family transfers might be excepted), it is creating a "paper trail", could that trail be used in the future as a record for confiscation, easily. *would* it? who can currently tell, would *you* trust the government with that kind of information? what about data breaches, now criminals have a "shopping list" of where to find firearms and houses to burgle...

now, *personally*, if I was to sell a firearm privately, I *would* like to have access to a NICS style system to make sure that the buyer is not a prohibited person, but that's for a selfish reason, I wouldn't want to sell a firearm to someone with a criminal background or ill intent, I understand the responsibility of ownership, but do I want to mandate that *EVERY* transfer of possession be monitored by the Feds, no.

If I want to sell a gun to my Mom, I should be able to, she's a law abiding citizen with no criminal record, of good moral character, and just as law abiding as me, the Feds don't need to check that transaction, do I want to sell a gun to my best friend since high school and we've been in contact our whole lives, a person who's like a sibling to me? yes, but i'd still like to check his background just to be safe (what, me, paranoid? who wants to know?! ), *however* I don't think the Feds need to have a record of that transaction...

a solution which would satisfy "Universal" proponents, *and* opponents? how about this...

a private sale accessible NICS style check system that returns *only* the three results to the private seller (Proceed/Delay/Decline) but retains *NO* information, the firearm isn't even the issue, it's a background check on the *person*, not a firearms sale/transfer transaction record, its a truly *instant* and temporary check that generates *no* paper trail, it'd give the seller peace of mind that the buyer isn't a prohibited person, and would generate no paper trail
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  #154  
Old 11-22-2019, 11:42 AM
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Another candidate-comparison quiz, this one by The Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...jwdlxU-aV25kpQ
  #155  
Old 11-22-2019, 12:11 PM
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The only Dem's I agreed with more than 50% of the time were Yang and Biden. Between this and the last survey it seems Yang is probably the best fit for me. In reading some of his stuff he comes across as a crazy technocrat, who isn't always wrong.
  #156  
Old 11-22-2019, 12:31 PM
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In all sincerity, what do you have to lose by moving to another country? You hate this one, by your own admission. Your proposed solution isn't going to happen. Who knows? You might be happy somewhere else.
There is no other country. The US does not exist surrounded by a vacuum, and as the second or third most powerful nation in the world, the effects of its policy are not really felt on North Sentinel Island, but they are felt every-fucking-where else. Leaving for a better place is simply not an option.
  #157  
Old 11-22-2019, 01:11 PM
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Another candidate-comparison quiz, this one by The Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...jwdlxU-aV25kpQ
Interesting... the isidewith quiz put my top 3 matches as;
Weld
Trump (vomit!)
Johnson

three bottom choices as;
Castro
Warren
Sanders

it categorized me as strong Libertarian

the WP quiz said top 3 were;
Biden
Buttiegeg
Klobuchar

bottom 3;
Harris
Sanders
Warren

Not a fan of Biden though, interesting that both Warren and Sanders list so low in both quizzes, I guess i'm just one of those weird outliers, politically....

Trump's simply not an option for me, oh well, back to Wiggum/Inanimate Carbon Rod 2020, or Vermin Supreme then...
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  #158  
Old 11-22-2019, 01:28 PM
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There is no other country. The US does not exist surrounded by a vacuum, and as the second or third most powerful nation in the world, the effects of its policy are not really felt on North Sentinel Island, but they are felt every-fucking-where else. Leaving for a better place is simply not an option.
Uh...yeah...
  #159  
Old 11-22-2019, 01:45 PM
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I had a kid earlier today who isn't allowed to eat in the cafeteria. I saw him going in there and called him over. He was upset, so instead of just taking him back to my room, I gave him a choice: he could eat in the classroom, or he could eat in the office. "I WANT TO EAT IN THE CAFETERIA!" he shouted.

He could shout that all he wanted, but really that just meant he wasn't participating in the decisionmaking process. What he wanted wasn't going to happen. So I made the choice without his input. And unfortunately, I think I chose his least-favorite option.

When I hear about people voting third party because they don't like either of the major party choices, it reminds me of this kid.
  #160  
Old 11-22-2019, 01:48 PM
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I got Pete Buttigieg at 93% with Sanders at 92%. Not quite what I was expecting.

Gary Johnson was 67% and Trump was 7%
  #161  
Old 11-22-2019, 02:26 PM
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When I hear about people voting third party because they don't like either of the major party choices, it reminds me of this kid.
When I hear people bitching about other people voting third party, I wonder why they can't grok the idea of "neither major party represents me."

Both major parties want greater control over major aspects of society and my personal life that I do not wish them to control. They only differ on which aspects. I will not throw a vote to either just so (general) you can feel like your party is a little closer to winning.

Last edited by Scumpup; 11-22-2019 at 02:27 PM.
  #162  
Old 11-22-2019, 02:55 PM
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Even to keep a demonstrably incompetent, untruthful and corrupt person out of the Oval Office?
  #163  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:00 PM
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Even to keep a demonstrably incompetent, untruthful and corrupt person out of the Oval Office?
I am doing that by not voting for him.
Voting for your guy just because he isn't Trump would mean betraying myself.

FTR, Democrats and Progressives telling me how awful Trump is are wasting their time. I've known that since Reagan was POTUS. I didn't vote Trump last time and have no intention of doing so this time. If you want me to vote for Joe "Peckerhead" Biden, or whoever you end up running, you have to convince me how wonderful s/he is.

Last edited by Scumpup; 11-22-2019 at 03:01 PM.
  #164  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:05 PM
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I am doing that by not voting for him.
Voting for your guy just because he isn't Trump would mean betraying myself.

FTR, Democrats and Progressives telling me how awful Trump is are wasting their time. I've known that since Reagan was POTUS. I didn't vote Trump last time and have no intention of doing so this time. If you want me to vote for Joe "Peckerhead" Biden, or whoever you end up running, you have to convince me how wonderful s/he is.
For me, anyone not as corrupt, immoral and incompetent as Trump needs our full support. They don't have to be "wonderful." If Jeb Bush somehow got the Democratic nomination, he'd have my vote and a check to his campaign on top of it. In my view, it's not the time to worry about who will give me the best gun policy, or the best health care plan. It's time to get rid of the vile man in the White House. We can worry about policy later. First, lets try to save what's left of the soul of our nation.
  #165  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:06 PM
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When I hear people bitching about other people voting third party, I wonder why they can't grok the idea of "neither major party represents me."
When I hear people bitching about "neither major party represents me" I wonder how entitled one must be to assume that one of the parties must align perfectly with their own personal views. Guess what, you are one of over 300 million of us. Nobody gets their own personal party that aligns 100 percent with us. Nobody. Why are you special?
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  #166  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:06 PM
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Put me down as another in-between and wishes the two parties would get less extreme. Healthcare for all, sure. Legalize marijuana, sure why not, people shouldn't be in jail for smoking plants. LGBT/minority rights, yes, everyone should be treated equally. But I have never understood why Democrats support all the Constitution except the 2nd Amendment.
  #167  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:16 PM
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When I hear people bitching about other people voting third party, I wonder why they can't grok the idea of "neither major party represents me."
Christ, neither one represents me either. I can't stand the lot of them. When I vote for the Democrat, I'm not joining their shitty team, I'm not giving them a trophy, I'm not high-fiving them. I'm pushing the trolley onto the less shitty of the tracks it can go onto.
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I am doing that by not voting for him.
Voting for your guy just because he isn't Trump would mean betraying myself.
It's not about you. Your ego, your self-betrayal, shouldn't factor into it. When third-party voters do this, when they make it about their own purity, about some cosmic "Be true to yourself" nonsense, it results in people getting hurt. It's the same error a pacifist makes when deciding not to stop a violent crime, because they don't want to betray themselves.

Idealism is nice for them as can afford it.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 11-22-2019 at 03:16 PM.
  #168  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:16 PM
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Put me down as another in-between and wishes the two parties would get less extreme. Healthcare for all, sure. Legalize marijuana, sure why not, people shouldn't be in jail for smoking plants. LGBT/minority rights, yes, everyone should be treated equally. But I have never understood why Democrats support all the Constitution except the 2nd Amendment.
And I never understand how people can sacrifice everything else that makes America what it is at the altar of the 2nd Amendment. Considering there will never be enough pro gun control Senators that are extreme enough to pass anything close to the paranoid fever dreams of a disarmed populace that I keep hearing about. It seems, to be honest, kind of insane to me.
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Last edited by Airbeck; 11-22-2019 at 03:17 PM.
  #169  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:17 PM
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When I hear about people voting third party because they don't like either of the major party choices, it reminds me of this kid.
I'll grant that, for example, Oakminster's fidelity to a policy that no electable politician holds, at the end of the day, just disenfranchises him from holding any political power.

But it is worth noting that the current way we vote and the parties are all real bad. I mean, the last election was between corrupt and stupid-corrupt. The next election is looking to repeat the Gore experience and put up Ivory Tower idealism against stupid-corrupt.

People say that the parties can't capture the middle because the middle don't stand for anything. There's no policy that you can pick that they all agree to and will glom onto. But, like, if you go to a group of people and say, "Hey everyone, I know what: Let's all buy green Honda Civics and everyone will drive those to work!" Err...why we are limiting ourselves to "green Honda Civics"? Why are you confused that some people seem excited about that and most don't?

Parties are, fundamentally, groups of people who don't understand the idea that there's more than one way to skin a cat and that people are different. A reasonable person will agree that a Honda Civic is a perfectly reasonable car. Yes, it would just fine for going to work in. However, I want a BMW and I can afford a BMW and there's no real reason for me to not have a BMW. Why are you telling me that I need to select one - yes it's a reasonable one that will function, but that's still stupid - and why in the world do you think that I'd be excited by the idea and that most people would be excited by the idea?

Independents aren't weird and inexplicable. They're just normal. Actually normal. They realize that there isn't one magical solution that will solve everything. They care more that you seem like you're not a crank than that you are trying to sell them with some particular piece of policy, dangled on the end of a stick. There are different policy options, with different pros and cons, and no one expects otherwise and it's silly to think that there would only ever be two policy options for every issue nor that those two are magically going to be perfect - except crazy partisans.

And everyone has lost sight of that and come to accept the idea that the parties are selling something worth buying and that you should be choosing between Green Honda Civics or Red Jaguars (AND THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS! THERE ARE ONLY THOSE TWO OPTIONS!!!)

You are disenfranchised by leaving the big two.

But accepting the big two is basically accepting greenlighting irrational people to lead everything.

We've reached the end point of feasibility for that strategy.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-22-2019 at 03:19 PM.
  #170  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:19 PM
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Put me down as another in-between and wishes the two parties would get less extreme. Healthcare for all, sure. Legalize marijuana, sure why not, people shouldn't be in jail for smoking plants. LGBT/minority rights, yes, everyone should be treated equally. But I have never understood why Democrats support all the Constitution except the 2nd Amendment.
Simple: Democrats don't support all the Constitution except the 2nd Amendment. First, a lot of Dems support the 2nd amendment as they read it, and as 4 of the 9 court members read it in Heller.

Second, what Democrats support the 3/5 compromise?

There's zero reason why we should treat the Constitution like a holy book. It was written by a bunch of extremely smart, extremely wise, extremely racist, extremely wealthy dudes, folks who couldn't imagine cars, much less wifi. Of course folks should think critically about this document just like they do everything else.
  #171  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:22 PM
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But it is worth noting that the current way we vote and the parties are all real bad. I mean, the last election was between corrupt and stupid-corrupt. The next election is looking to repeat the Gore experience and put up Ivory Tower idealism against stupid-corrupt.
I agree. Earlier I said it was a trolley problem, and we have one of two tracks the trolley could be pushed onto, and lots of much better tracks it won't get pushed onto.

On election day, if you're not helping to push the trolley onto the less-harmful of the two possible tracks, you're fucking up.

And if you're not trying to build a better set of tracks for the rest of the time, you're also fucking up.

I'm 100% in favor of making stronger third parties all year long. But when it comes to election day, if an election is anywhere close, ya gotta vote for a possible winner.
  #172  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:57 PM
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Christ, neither one represents me either. I can't stand the lot of them. When I vote for the Democrat, I'm not joining their shitty team, I'm not giving them a trophy, I'm not high-fiving them. I'm pushing the trolley onto the less shitty of the tracks it can go onto.

It's not about you. Your ego, your self-betrayal, shouldn't factor into it. When third-party voters do this, when they make it about their own purity, about some cosmic "Be true to yourself" nonsense, it results in people getting hurt. It's the same error a pacifist makes when deciding not to stop a violent crime, because they don't want to betray themselves.

Idealism is nice for them as can afford it.
All you are offering me is that I get to elect the people who I know in advance are going to do things that I don't want them to do. Fuck that.
Hilariously, on right-leaning boards that I visit, they rail at 3rd party voters in almost identical words to yours.
If you have no core beliefs and principles that you are unwilling to betray, what do you care who is elected anyway? Either one should be fine with you.
  #173  
Old 11-22-2019, 04:00 PM
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There are tens of millions single-issue voters. That is the way democracy works.

I never thought I would become one but I have this cycle - I will vote against anyone who vows to take our health insurance away and replace it with some shitty type of Medicaid.
As somebody who has private insurance:

Medicare-for-all would have to try REALLY hard to be shittier than my insurance.
  #174  
Old 11-22-2019, 04:04 PM
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I used to be a Green Party member simply because I saw the Dems and Reps as not too different from each other, but I got an important lesson early on in 2000 when Nader threw a wrench in the election (I was a Floridian back then which made it worse). We are a two-party system and it would take major changes to our electoral system to change that. After that I voted straight Dem, not out of any love of the Democratic Party, but because they were the only thing stopping the Reps.

The difference is these days the Dems actually have people that share my views, like Sanders, Warren, and AOC. And stopping Trump should be the most important factor.
  #175  
Old 11-22-2019, 04:53 PM
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All you are offering me is that I get to elect the people who I know in advance are going to do things that I don't want them to do. Fuck that.
"I get to": you're doing it again. This isn't about going down to Chucky Cheese and getting to play the Star-Wars themed Skee-ball game. "Get to" has jackshit to do with it.

Of course those sonsabitches are gonna do things you don't want them to. They're terrible people.

It's not about that. It's about taking your ego out of the decision, knowing that whoever gets the power is gonna do something awful with it, and giving that power to the assholes who are slightly less awful.

If you don't get your hands dirty, it might go to the more awful assholes.

How you can feel good about yourself because you let the worse assholes get it, I don't understand.
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If you have no core beliefs and principles that you are unwilling to betray, what do you care who is elected anyway? Either one should be fine with you.
This profoundly misunderstands what I'm saying.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 11-22-2019 at 04:54 PM.
  #176  
Old 11-22-2019, 05:00 PM
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"I get to": you're doing it again. This isn't about going down to Chucky Cheese and getting to play the Star-Wars themed Skee-ball game. "Get to" has jackshit to do with it.

Of course those sonsabitches are gonna do things you don't want them to. They're terrible people.

It's not about that. It's about taking your ego out of the decision, knowing that whoever gets the power is gonna do something awful with it, and giving that power to the assholes who are slightly less awful.

If you don't get your hands dirty, it might go to the more awful assholes.

How you can feel good about yourself because you let the worse assholes get it, I don't understand.

This profoundly misunderstands what I'm saying.
No, I understand you perfectly. I don't agree with you. That, I think, is where I will stop.
  #177  
Old 11-22-2019, 05:16 PM
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No, I understand you perfectly.
You said, "If you have no core beliefs and principles that you are unwilling to betray," implying that I have none. The charitable conclusion is that you misunderstand me.
  #178  
Old 11-22-2019, 05:16 PM
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How do you, personally, recommend such an elimination be accomplished?
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He just told you:
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Just hold your nose and vote D exclusively until the R party no longer exists. It’s the right thing to do (which is why I prescribe this course of action for every voter in the country).
To be precise, I actually told Oakminster...
  #179  
Old 11-22-2019, 05:31 PM
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You said, "If you have no core beliefs and principles that you are unwilling to betray," implying that I have none. The charitable conclusion is that you misunderstand me.
You do you. If the only possible reason a person could disagree with you is that s/he doesn't understand you, then you take that and run with it. Run wild and run free. I am done discussing the matter with you.
  #180  
Old 11-22-2019, 05:48 PM
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And I never understand how people can sacrifice everything else that makes America what it is at the altar of the 2nd Amendment. Considering there will never be enough pro gun control Senators that are extreme enough to pass anything close to the paranoid fever dreams of a disarmed populace that I keep hearing about. It seems, to be honest, kind of insane to me.
What is insane to me is voting for someone who says he supports doing something I do not want done. Dude says I will do X. I find X unacceptable. It matters not whether the current congress critters are likely to pas X. There will be more congressional elections during this guy's term, and those may go in the direction of X. Therefore, I won't vote for Dude. Don't give a damn what other people think I should do with my vote. Really. Look at me. This is me not giving a damn what anyone thinks about how I vote. I might even shake my booty while I'm busy not giving a damn....and voting for whoever I please, from any party...even a party unlikely to win.
  #181  
Old 11-22-2019, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
What is insane to me is voting for someone who says he supports doing something I do not want done. Dude says I will do X. I find X unacceptable. It matters not whether the current congress critters are likely to pas X. There will be more congressional elections during this guy's term, and those may go in the direction of X. Therefore, I won't vote for Dude. Don't give a damn what other people think I should do with my vote. Really. Look at me. This is me not giving a damn what anyone thinks about how I vote. I might even shake my booty while I'm busy not giving a damn....and voting for whoever I please, from any party...even a party unlikely to win.
How do you find a politician who agrees with you about everything? I don't even agree with my wife about everything. I voted for Carter, for god's sake, and he instituted a registration requirement for the Selective Service just when I turned 18. I found that "unacceptable" to a degree that I committed a felony to protest that policy. I still voted for him over Reagan and never regretted it.
  #182  
Old 11-22-2019, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
How do you find a politician who agrees with you about everything? I don't even agree with my wife about everything. I voted for Carter, for god's sake, and he instituted a registration requirement for the Selective Service just when I turned 18. I found that "unacceptable" to a degree that I committed a felony to protest that policy. I still voted for him over Reagan and never regretted it.
I don't need a politician that agrees with me on everything. I do need one that does not endorse things I find unacceptable. Gun bans and registration are two of those things. Reversing Roe v Wade is another, but no national Dem candidate has done that as far as I know.
  #183  
Old 11-22-2019, 06:05 PM
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...
You are disenfranchised by leaving the big two.

But accepting the big two is basically accepting greenlighting irrational people to lead everything.

We've reached the end point of feasibility for that strategy.
Yeah, I used to think 3 or even more parties would be better. Then I saw the mess the UK and Israel are in, and thought- nope.
  #184  
Old 11-22-2019, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by oakminster View Post
what is insane to me is voting for someone who says he supports doing something i do not want done. Dude says i will do x. I find x unacceptable. It matters not whether the current congress critters are likely to pas x. There will be more congressional elections during this guy's term, and those may go in the direction of x. Therefore, i won't vote for dude. Don't give a damn what other people think i should do with my vote. Really. Look at me. This is me not giving a damn what anyone thinks about how i vote. I might even shake my booty while i'm busy not giving a damn....and voting for whoever i please, from any party...even a party unlikely to win.
+1 qft
  #185  
Old 11-22-2019, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Scumpup View Post
When I hear people bitching about other people voting third party, I wonder why they can't grok the idea of "neither major party represents me."

Both major parties want greater control over major aspects of society and my personal life that I do not wish them to control. They only differ on which aspects. I will not throw a vote to either just so (general) you can feel like your party is a little closer to winning.
I think you can accept that one way or the other one of the major parties' candidates will be elected president in November 2020 to presumptively serve the next four years? Whether you vote for one the other or neither.

If you feel that our current president is less likely to do harm to this country's and the world's long term interests than the D nominee (whoever it ends up being) would do, then ISTM that voting for him makes the most sense.

I don't grok how anyone could think that but if they do then they should.

OTOH if you comprehend the harms this individual represents to the long term interests of both the country and the world, and do not see the D nominee as likely to result in similar level harms, then voting for that D nominee makes sense even if the party as a whole does not represent you.

Mind you I will vote for almost any of the D nominees gladly as the direction they all want to pull is the same direction I believe is the correct one. The differences between what they'd actually do is, to my read, slight. The differences are to me more packaging than substance for most (a couple of complete whackadoodles aside).

But even if it came down to making what would be the less poor choice, I see a poor choice and a disastrous choice as an important decision to take part in.

Reference was made to the classic trolley problem. Accepted that neither track is a direction you'd pick. From your POV both tracks are bad choices. If neither is, from that POV, a worse choice, then keeping your hands unbloodied and letting it go whichever direction it goes, is a fine action. But if you believe that one is some increased chance of a moderately bad thing (from your POV) happening later, and the other is several people die now, is inaction ethically justifiable.

Again, that analysis is contingent on what values you place on the harms of Trump vs the degree of increased future risk of gun regulation that you'd object to. If you see Trump as very little harm then that should be your choice. But I'd prefer you stay home!
  #186  
Old 11-22-2019, 08:19 PM
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You do you. If the only possible reason a person could disagree with you is that s/he doesn't understand you,
That's a ridiculous non sequitur, but I'm not sure you understand that, either. Thanks for the permission, though!
  #187  
Old 11-22-2019, 08:41 PM
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Yeah, I used to think 3 or even more parties would be better. Then I saw the mess the UK and Israel are in, and thought- nope.
Parties are an emergent phenomenon of the general rules of the game.

Depending on how you organize things, you'll get different results.
  #188  
Old 11-22-2019, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cuauhtemoc View Post
I'm pretty dumb that I need this explained to me, I guess...

But why the vehement opposition to gun registration? Guns aren't a big part of my life and I don't pretend to understand all the issues, but having to register your weapon just doesn't seem like a huge burden to me.

I'm sincerely asking because I want to understand, not trying to make a point.
I'd like an answer to this too, please.

ETA: When I posted this, I didn't realize how long this thread was, and that I hadn't seen all of it. Now I see that a couple of posters have addressed this, but has the OP ever done so?

Last edited by Thudlow Boink; 11-22-2019 at 09:41 PM.
  #189  
Old 11-23-2019, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MacTech View Post
[snipped very long discussion, mostly built on the same misconception]

a solution which would satisfy "Universal" proponents, *and* opponents? how about this...

a private sale accessible NICS style check system that returns *only* the three results to the private seller (Proceed/Delay/Decline) but retains *NO* information, the firearm isn't even the issue, it's a background check on the *person*, not a firearms sale/transfer transaction record, its a truly *instant* and temporary check that generates *no* paper trail, it'd give the seller peace of mind that the buyer isn't a prohibited person, and would generate no paper trail
It sounds like you think the only public interest in a gun purchase is the seller's peace of mind. And that that seller, presumably by virtue of being a gun owner, is automatically a good person who would never sell to a potential gun abuser.

No; I do not think this solution would appeal to proponents of gun regulation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scumpup View Post
I am doing that by not voting for him.
Voting for your guy just because he isn't Trump would mean betraying myself.... If you want me to vote for Joe "Peckerhead" Biden, or whoever you end up running, you have to convince me how wonderful s/he is.
It's a matter of simple mathematics that Trump is more likely to defeat Biden if you don't vote for Biden than if you do. Surely you understand that?

BTW, why is Biden "Peckerhead"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by control-z View Post
Put me down as another in-between and wishes the two parties would get less extreme. Healthcare for all, sure. Legalize marijuana, sure why not, people shouldn't be in jail for smoking plants. LGBT/minority rights, yes, everyone should be treated equally. But I have never understood why Democrats support all the Constitution except the 2nd Amendment.
"Healthcare for all, sure." (So you're a radical leftist.)
"Legalize marijuana, sure why not" (So you're a radical leftist!)
"LGBT/minority rights, yes, everyone should be treated equally." (So you're a radical leftist!!)
"But ..."

...
Without reading on to the Spoiler, I venture a guess that the Big Gotcha is going to be that Number One Issue; the Natural Freedom that has unified philosophers for thousands of years; the Quintessential Human Value; the Purpose of Life; the Reason GOD Created the Universe.
"... the 2nd Amendment." (Got it! What do I win?)
  #190  
Old 11-23-2019, 11:05 AM
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In those misty days when I was an undergrad, dinosaurs prowled the Earth, and Biden made his first run at the White House, one of my professors wondered aloud why that peckerhead thought he was qualified to be POTUS. It became something of a catchphrase amongst the science majors to refer to Biden as "Peckerhead" and I use it here as a shout-out to any of my old classmates that might be members. Also, Biden is a peckerhead.

Last edited by Scumpup; 11-23-2019 at 11:08 AM.
  #191  
Old 11-23-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cuauhtemoc View Post
I'm pretty dumb that I need this explained to me, I guess...

But why the vehement opposition to gun registration? Guns aren't a big part of my life and I don't pretend to understand all the issues, but having to register your weapon just doesn't seem like a huge burden to me.

I'm sincerely asking because I want to understand, not trying to make a point.
Because if they were gonna come for your guns - and it has happened and several Dem candidates promised it- then they'd have a list. It since there are like 400 Millions guns in the USA, registration would simply be used as a tool to harass those that forgot.

And tell me, what good would it do? Even the FBI and other Agencies doent ask for Gun registration.
  #192  
Old 11-23-2019, 10:07 PM
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I am doing that by not voting for him.
Voting for your guy just because he isn't Trump would mean betraying myself.

FTR, Democrats and Progressives telling me how awful Trump is are wasting their time. I've known that since Reagan was POTUS. I didn't vote Trump last time and have no intention of doing so this time. If you want me to vote for Joe "Peckerhead" Biden, or whoever you end up running, you have to convince me how wonderful s/he is.
Mebbe.
New data makes it clear that non-voters elected Trump.
  #193  
Old 11-23-2019, 10:18 PM
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Since you're a Moderator you may be able to correct the typo in your post, despite missing the 5-minute window

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Originally Posted by Dictionary

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  #194  
Old 11-24-2019, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
I agree. Earlier I said it was a trolley problem, and we have one of two tracks the trolley could be pushed onto, and lots of much better tracks it won't get pushed onto.

On election day, if you're not helping to push the trolley onto the less-harmful of the two possible tracks, you're fucking up.

And if you're not trying to build a better set of tracks for the rest of the time, you're also fucking up.

I'm 100% in favor of making stronger third parties all year long. But when it comes to election day, if an election is anywhere close, ya gotta vote for a possible winner.
In India, everyone just drives where they want and how they want, ignoring all the rules of the road. They get where they want to go slower and a lot more people die than if they followed the rules.

But, if you tried to follow the rules, it wouldn't help you out at all because everyone else is being self-destructive.

And if it was just India, and that was the only sample you had to look at, you would believe that humanity simply can't obey the rules or operate in a sane and logical manner. In our universe, we know that's not the case, people can obey the rules of the road, and it's just a matter of how each particular society has developed over time.

I don't know if this is a case where things can be changed to something that works better. But I would say that the question, if you're in India and trying to drive on Indian roads isn't, "Should I drive like everyone else, so at least I don't die in an accident immediately, or drive according to the rules even if that really just harms myself?" The better question is what steps need to be taken to push society in a more healthy direction?
  #195  
Old 11-24-2019, 08:06 AM
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When I hear people bitching about "neither major party represents me" I wonder how entitled one must be to assume that one of the parties must align perfectly with their own personal views. Guess what, you are one of over 300 million of us. Nobody gets their own personal party that aligns 100 percent with us. Nobody. Why are you special?
I know this was a couple of days ago but thinking like this is what has us in the political situations we are in where is it asshole vs jut job. People are to focused on winning instead of what is best for the country. Sure you win with your marginally less bad candidate but you could have voted to improve th country by voting for someone else. If more people voted for the candidate that was going to improve the country then either people with good policies would win or the big parties would have to change their candidate selection so they were less extreme and crazy. The people doing the most harm to this country are the intelectiectially lazy who vote straight tickets.

I'm really bummed the Bill Weld ran as a Republican this cycle rather than taking over the top of the libertarian ticket from gary johnson who's obviously smoked himself retarded. There would have been a good chance of splitting the republicans and stealing the middle from the dems.
  #196  
Old 11-24-2019, 09:43 AM
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So, this is it, then? At long last, the rise of the Libertarian Party to national prominence and power? And the Vikings win the SuperBowl?
  #197  
Old 11-24-2019, 10:51 AM
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So, this is it, then? At long last, the rise of the Libertarian Party to national prominence and power? And the Vikings win the SuperBowl?
Yes, when bill weld runs as the lib candidate and trump and warren are the mainstream candidates. Let me know when that happens.
  #198  
Old 11-24-2019, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTech View Post
[snipped very long discussion, mostly built on the same misconception]...
It sounds like you think the only public interest in a gun purchase is the seller's peace of mind. And that that seller, presumably by virtue of being a gun owner, is automatically a good person who would never sell to a potential gun abuser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone View Post
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Last edited by Bone; 11-24-2019 at 11:57 AM.
  #199  
Old 11-24-2019, 01:09 PM
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Because if they were gonna come for your guns - and it has happened and several Dem candidates promised it- then they'd have a list. It since there are like 400 Millions guns in the USA, registration would simply be used as a tool to harass those that forgot.

And tell me, what good would it do? Even the FBI and other Agencies doent ask for Gun registration.
They are coming for our guns! ! ! What good would it do! ! ! !

I just wanted to take a second and see how that feels.

Oh man. I don't envy you.

Last edited by drad dog; 11-24-2019 at 01:10 PM.
  #200  
Old 11-24-2019, 01:16 PM
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You know I could vote Dem if they weren’t so hell bent on racing towards socialism. Quite a bit of the ideas are good. But as a package it’s completely unpalatable and that’s a damn shame.
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