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Old 12-01-2019, 08:14 AM
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Could someone provide me with a handful of anti-Trump bullet points?


Uncle Bob was over on Thanksgiving and he surprised my by mentioning that he is fine with Trump as his president. I let his comment lie there while someone else quickly changed the subject.

As much as I loathe the idea of President Trump, I realized that I am not really well armed with specific facts demonstrating his unpresidentialness.

I will see Uncle Bob again on Christmas. I would like to have 4 or 5 objective reasons why Trump has no business being where he is.

I know I could easily seek these out myself, but I'm certain that many Dopers would be more than willing to assist with my specific request.

Here is what I envision:

Uncle Bob: "I'm ok with Trump being president".
Mustard: "So you're ok with:
  • A president who...
  • A president who...
  • A president who...

I am looking for points that are substantive, concise, and factual. Specific (brief) examples of each shortcoming would be awesome.

Thanks!
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:01 AM
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It doesn’t work that way. If Uncle Bob is like most Trump fans, then Uncle Bob likes Trump. He likes Trump’s attitude, that he “calls it how it is”, and pisses off the ‘right’ people. The policies he’s enacted probably don’t have much to do with it.

Essentially, what you’re asking is “Give me five things for my uncle to rationalise on the spot until he loses patience, says ‘I’m entitled to my opinion’, and changes the subject”. Seriously, what’s the point? Has anyone ever changed their mind because of something a relative said at the dinner table?

Honestly, if I live to be a thousand I’ll never understand this American obsession with using politics to ruin holidays.
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:08 AM
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Chances are, every "You're OK with a President who..." will be countered by "That's a lie, the liberal media is lying to you" or "They all do that, look at this thing Obama/Clinton/Perosi/Biden did."

Last edited by scr4; 12-01-2019 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:13 AM
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What people most love about trump is that he trumpets the ugliest things in their hearts, justifying and celebrating them. How can you "argue" against that? Uncle Bob didn't embrace trump for rational reasons, so why do you think rationality will convince him to turn away from him?
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Old 12-01-2019, 11:50 AM
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Ok this is something I've been thinking about and researching lately. My key takeaway thus far comes from Jonathan Haidt's Moral Foundations Theory and some supporting research. The idea is that there are five moral foundations (though Haidt proposes a sixth - Liberty) - Care/Harm, Fairness/Cheating, Loyalty/Betrayal, Authority/Subversion, and Sanctity/Degradation. While Liberals are generally concerned with Care and Fairness, Conservatives are concerned with all five. Additionally, conservatives are more likely to consider others in an outgroup, where something like Loyalty will not apply. The key to persuading others is to speak to their values. I recall last year a thread similar to this one wherein people were recommending using "Trump puts kids in cages" as an argument. When offered to a Trump supporter, this argument will only strengthen support because that person considers Mexicans an outgroup, and one that violates Sanctity, Fairness, and Authority.

You must find out what THEY care about and frame the arguments in terms of values that matter to them. A study on argument framing showed that when conservatives were given an argument against Trump framed in terms of Fairness (discriminates against Muslims, etc), 75% of participants said they would vote for him. When given an argument framed in terms of Loyalty (dodged the draft,etc), only 56% said they would likely vote for him. 19 Fricking points! You can frame any issue you come up with in terms of any value. I really wish this message would get through to whoever is crafting campaign messaging for Dems in 2020

A few other things I've learned is to start your conversation criticizing something about the Democrats to develop rapport and to employ a Socratic method so the other person is coming to the conclusion that you want themselves. Good luck and let us know how it goes. If you know what's important to him, I'll help you craft an approach.

Last edited by KidCharlemagne; 12-01-2019 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 12-01-2019, 11:58 AM
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You must find out what THEY care about and frame the arguments in terms of values that matter to them. A study on argument framing showed that when conservatives were given an argument against Trump framed in terms of Fairness (discriminates against Muslims, etc), 75% of participants said they would vote for him. When given an argument framed in terms of Loyalty (dodged the draft,etc), only 56% said they would likely vote for him. 19 Fricking points! I really wish this message would get through to whoever is crafting campaign messaging for Dems in 2020
With that in mind, the OP might like to mention that Trump screwed over the Kurds after they fought ISIS with us, and left them at the mercy of a dictator who wants to wipe them out. You don’t get much more disloyal than that.

Last edited by Unreconstructed Man; 12-01-2019 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
With that in mind, the OP might like to mention that Trump screwed over the Kurds after they fought ISIS with us, and left them at the mercy of a dictator who wants to wipe them out. You don’t get much more disloyal than that.
Yes, to the extent the other person will consider the Kurds an ingroup. I'd say stuff like:

- Trump broke a promise and a man is only as good as his word. (If he's religious, be sure he knows that's from Proverbs 20:6)

- Trump violated the Sacred oath of our very own Marine Corps - Semper Fi

- Trump forced our soldiers to break THEIR promises. He violated the trust of our soldiers.


To keep the Kurds a member of his ingroup, send him this letter to the Kurds from an army wife who has pictures on the mantle of her fireplace of the Kurdish soldiers who saved her husband's life:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/17/opini...ion/index.html

Last edited by KidCharlemagne; 12-01-2019 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:50 PM
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What we are seeing a lot of is Conservatives who are willing to admit that his demeanor is not what they look for in a president, but like what he's done as far as conservative policies. I would point out that his main "successes", tax cuts and judicial appointments, were things that any conservative president could have done. Congress did the tax cuts and the judicial appointments were picked out by others. The aspects of his administration that have been truly his, the border wall, and trade deals have been failures. Meanwhile he's a compulsive liar, who is dividing the country, setting nephew against uncle, and is tarnishing the image of our nation abroad.
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Old 12-01-2019, 01:07 PM
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." - Tolstoy

The OP might also want to read "Why Facts Don't Change Our Minds" before bothering.

A big point of this article is that people will believe lots of false things - as long as doing so ensures that they remain a part of the social group. In this case, a part of the "Trumper" group that loves Fox News and loves Trump. There is a great fear about being tossed out of your group into the wilderness.

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Facts Don't Change Our Minds. Friendship Does.

Convincing someone to change their mind is really the process of convincing them to change their tribe. If they abandon their beliefs, they run the risk of losing social ties. You can’t expect someone to change their mind if you take away their community too. You have to give them somewhere to go. Nobody wants their worldview torn apart if loneliness is the outcome.
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Old 12-01-2019, 01:13 PM
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The OPs problem is thinking that any political issue is black or white. Give me most anti-Trump point and it can be turned a point supporting Trump.
Putting children in cages?
Blame their parents for dragging them here to commit a crime
Australia treats its "immigrants" including children a lot worse
Our immigration policy is a lot more lenient than most countries. Do you have any chance of immigrating to the United Kingdom? No, but anyone has a chance to immigrate to the United States.

The trade war with China? We need to stand up to them because
China has unfair expansionist policies (Spratley Islands)
China steals our intellectual policy
China can out-compete the US in the world economy since they use slave labor.


Those are just two sets of counterarguments I came up with off the top of my head. Can you answer those? Can you respond to all of the counterarguments a Trump supporter can come up with? As an example
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man
With that in mind, the OP might like to mention that Trump screwed over the Kurds after they fought ISIS with us, and left them at the mercy of a dictator who wants to wipe them out. You don’t get much more disloyal than that.
It's an American tradition

Last edited by Saint Cad; 12-01-2019 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 12-01-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
A big point of this article is that people will believe lots of false things - as long as doing so ensures that they remain a part of the social group.
We had a person over for Thanksgiving that insisted the impeachment was a coup because the Dems are afraid of Trump. He admits to (and is proud of) the fact that he doesn't follow any news. Every fact we presented was countered with "I was talking to my friends" who are just as ignorant as he is.
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Old 12-01-2019, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." - Tolstoy

The OP might also want to read "Why Facts Don't Change Our Minds" before bothering.

A big point of this article is that people will believe lots of false things - as long as doing so ensures that they remain a part of the social group. In this case, a part of the "Trumper" group that loves Fox News and loves Trump. There is a great fear about being tossed out of your group into the wilderness.
Yes part of Haidt's findings (see my above post) is that political opinions are not arrived at through reason and providing facts counter to a moral of political position usually serves to entrench the position further unless it attacks the intuitive foundation upon which it's built. Moral reasoning is, for the most part, a post hoc justification.

OP, it also helps if you attack Trump's policies while supporting his ends (whether you do or not). It's harder to get a Trump supporter to believe that immigration is good than it is to get him to believe that a wall isn't the way to go about preventing it. You will also gain moral bona fides and rapport if you agree (true or not) that preventing illegal immigration is important to you. Explain that Democrats have a plan that includes technology updated since the classical era (cameras, drones, Rottweilers with frickin laser beams attached to their heads, etc)

Last edited by KidCharlemagne; 12-01-2019 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 12-01-2019, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by KidCharlemagne View Post
You will also gain moral bona fides and rapport if you agree (true or not) that preventing illegal immigration is important to you. Explain that Democrats have a plan that includes technology updated since the classical era (cameras, drones, Rottweilers with frickin laser beams attached to their heads, etc)
Guiding off that “true or not” parenthetical, what’s the “true or not” followup when they ask about that plan? Yeah, okay, cameras, drones, even Rottweilers, okay; but what’s the “true or not” answer to interesting; and what’s the plan for dealing with them once they get eyeballed? You now have my full attention; can you loudly tell me this big idea, and only *then* mutter ‘true or not’ under your breath?
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Old 12-01-2019, 02:14 PM
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Guiding off that “true or not” parenthetical, what’s the “true or not” followup when they ask about that plan? Yeah, okay, cameras, drones, even Rottweilers, okay; but what’s the “true or not” answer to interesting; and what’s the plan for dealing with them once they get eyeballed? You now have my full attention; can you loudly tell me this big idea, and only *then* mutter ‘true or not’ under your breath?
Oh I didn't mean you should make up fake policy proposals. I meant that your argument will have more force if you say that you agree that preventing illegal immgration is important, even if you don't really care about the issue. The Democrat's proposals I mentioned are real (except, of course, the Rottweilers). Article:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/natio...123-story.html

Last edited by KidCharlemagne; 12-01-2019 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 12-01-2019, 02:31 PM
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Oh I didn't mean you should make up fake policy proposals. I meant that your argument will have more force if you say that you agree that preventing illegal immgration is important, even if you don't really care about the issue. The Democrat's proposals I mentioned are real (except, of course, the Rottweilers). Article:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/natio...123-story.html
I looked through that, but I may be missing it; once someone gets spotted by drones or cameras or Rottweilers, once they’re on the radar — which, hey, if you’d like to spell out that it’s literal radar, yeah, okay, fine — what do they actually plan to do if they see someone who’s nearing the border, or someone who just stepped across the border three seconds ago, or someone who right now has one foot on one side of the border and the other on the other?
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:01 PM
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I looked through that, but I may be missing it; once someone gets spotted by drones or cameras or Rottweilers, once they’re on the radar — which, hey, if you’d like to spell out that it’s literal radar, yeah, okay, fine — what do they actually plan to do if they see someone who’s nearing the border, or someone who just stepped across the border three seconds ago, or someone who right now has one foot on one side of the border and the other on the other?
I believe the idea is to send agents where viable and/or capture photos - perhaps ultimately to be used with facial recognition. I'm not well versed on the issue - I was just showing op how to frame arguments in terms of targeting specific proposals rather than their objective.
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Old 12-01-2019, 05:32 PM
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A president who:

- said he wanted to fuck his underage daughter - on-air with Howard Stern
- said "confiscate guns now; due process later" - tweeted twice
- bragged about mafia dealings and obstruction of justice - in tweets
- said there are nice Nazis - my dad and uncles fought Nazis; were they on the wrong side?
- cheats on his taxes, so the rest of us get to pay-up for him
- could kill the Owned-by-Russia accusations by releasing his financials
- hires undocumented aliens to work his resorts - told by the workers
- fraudulently draft-dodged (said his podiatrist's daughter); now attacks heroes, pardons thugs
- destroys official documents (rips up his papers) and alters others (like a NOAA weather map)

Those are some top-of-my-head factual points. I could add cheating on all his wives, bragging of sexual assaults, molesting underage beauty contestants, stealing tips from his resort staff, and hating household pets. It's a start.
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Old 12-01-2019, 05:59 PM
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A president who:

- said he wanted to fuck his underage daughter - on-air with Howard Stern
- said "confiscate guns now; due process later" - tweeted twice
- bragged about mafia dealings and obstruction of justice - in tweets
- said there are nice Nazis - my dad and uncles fought Nazis; were they on the wrong side?
- cheats on his taxes, so the rest of us get to pay-up for him
- could kill the Owned-by-Russia accusations by releasing his financials
- hires undocumented aliens to work his resorts - told by the workers
- fraudulently draft-dodged (said his podiatrist's daughter); now attacks heroes, pardons thugs
- destroys official documents (rips up his papers) and alters others (like a NOAA weather map)

Those are some top-of-my-head factual points. I could add cheating on all his wives, bragging of sexual assaults, molesting underage beauty contestants, stealing tips from his resort staff, and hating household pets. It's a start.
Those just paint a picture of his morals and ideologies.

He's also pretty much destroyed any good standing or trust with the rest of the world. Not to mention fucking over farmers and giving his buddies a nice big tax break that is going to hurt all Americans.
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:55 AM
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Shortly after Trump's inauguration, a friend of mine compiled a list of news articles attacking Trump or the GOP more generally. Unfortunately that list was constructed before much of his criminality came to light. (And some of the URL links may no longer work.) But I may try to dig it out and send it on request via e-mail or PM.

Once or twice when I've gotten into discussion, I've made the mistake of going with the fact that Trump had his "Charity" pay Don Junior's $7 Boy Scout fee. It's chickenfeed — this criminal held up $400 million in urgent military aid for a personal political favor — but that $7 "charitable donation" really impressed me about how contemptible and picayune this loathsome slob is.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:42 AM
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I've [mentioned] the fact that Trump had his "Charity" pay Don Junior's $7 Boy Scout fee. It's chickenfeed — this criminal held up $400 million in urgent military aid for a personal political favor — but that $7 "charitable donation" really impressed me about how contemptible and picayune this loathsome slob is.
That's right up there with "stealing tips from his resort staff". Better, because illegal. But his followers don't care about little moral foibles. Or big ones. Hail the God-Emperor!
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by RioRico View Post
A president who:

- said he wanted to fuck his underage daughter - on-air with Howard Stern
- said "confiscate guns now; due process later" - tweeted twice
- bragged about mafia dealings and obstruction of justice - in tweets
- said there are nice Nazis - my dad and uncles fought Nazis; were they on the wrong side?
- cheats on his taxes, so the rest of us get to pay-up for him
- could kill the Owned-by-Russia accusations by releasing his financials
- hires undocumented aliens to work his resorts - told by the workers
- fraudulently draft-dodged (said his podiatrist's daughter); now attacks heroes, pardons thugs
- destroys official documents (rips up his papers) and alters others (like a NOAA weather map)
These are half truths mixed with lies and hyperbole. Which only justifies Trump voters support for Trump.

Last edited by Grrr!; 12-02-2019 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:31 PM
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These are half truths mixed with lies and hyperbole. Which only justifies Trump voters support for Trump.
I couldn't agree more. If Mean Mr. Mustard wants to have any chance at all of convincing his Uncle Bob to disavow support for President Trump, he needs to avoid any sort of hyperbole or exaggeration and be as factually accurate as possible, and I'd encourage him to avoid focusing on trivialities. RioRico's post is like an anti-example, a perfect what-not-to-do.
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:42 PM
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Trump has admitted to violating the consent of women and girls on multiple occasions; Trump spent years spreading an evidence-free and racist conspiracy theory (birtherism) and never apologized to the targets of that conspiracy theory; Trump praised at least some of the white supremacists who marched at Charlottesville as "good people"; Trump said that a judge couldn't do his job because he was "Mexican"; Trump's administration is on record as advocating that deliberately harming migrant children by separating them from their families is a positive good for deterrent purposes; Trump's charity has fraudulently withheld funds meant to help veterans; Trump aided the hardliners in Iran who want nuclear weapons by withdrawing from an agreement that made it more difficult for Iran to get nuclear weapons with absolutely nothing to gain for the US by the withdrawal... off the top of my head.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:00 PM
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Trump has admitted to violating the consent of women and girls on multiple occasions; Trump spent years spreading an evidence-free and racist conspiracy theory (birtherism) and never apologized to the targets of that conspiracy theory; Trump praised at least some of the white supremacists who marched at Charlottesville as "good people"; Trump said that a judge couldn't do his job because he was "Mexican"; Trump's administration is on record as advocating that deliberately harming migrant children by separating them from their families is a positive good for deterrent purposes; Trump's charity has fraudulently withheld funds meant to help veterans; Trump aided the hardliners in Iran who want nuclear weapons by withdrawing from an agreement that made it more difficult for Iran to get nuclear weapons with absolutely nothing to gain for the US by the withdrawal... off the top of my head.
All but the last two are "liberal talking points" to the ears of a Trump Supporter. The others are all issues that matter to YOU. Like I said, he has to frame the arguments in terms that matter to the other guy.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:11 PM
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All but the last two are "liberal talking points" to the ears of a Trump Supporter. The others are all issues that matter to YOU. Like I said, he has to frame the arguments in terms that matter to the other guy.
All of these are based on facts -- mostly Trump's own words, or the words of his administration.

If "the other guy" isn't interested in such facts, then I'm not sure what the point of using things like "talking points" is. One can't be reasoned out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into. Maybe fabricated conspiracy theories and reddit memes would be more useful for swaying such a person?
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:52 PM
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If Uncle Bob is a coal miner, farmer or manufacturing worker, MMM can illustrate how Trump has lied to them about bringing back jobs.

If Uncle Bob is retired military, MMM can illustrate how Trump has disrespected the military, its leadership and undermined the chain of command.

If Uncle Bob believes in democracy and free speech, MMM can illustrate how Trump has cozied up to authoritarians who are hostile to such principles and America's role in the world.

If Uncle Bob loves his family, MMM can illustrate how Trump has worked to undermine their access to affordable healthcare.

If Uncle Bob has neither heart and nor brains, MMM should practice saying, "Really, Uncle Bob? Aren't you EMBARRASSED?!", and then immediately change the subject.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:07 PM
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I'd refer the OP to the military code of honor: not to lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do.

Trump demonstrably lies all the time. More than any counterexample your relative can come up with. Wtf? Why is it tolerated? It could be because Trump's racist attitudes resonate with your relative and take priority over honesty. In any case, your values are superior to those of a Trump supporter.

Cheat? There are too many examples to count, but bribing foreign governments with tax dollars to help him cheat in the next election is a biggie. Your values are superior to anyone who tolerates this.

Steal? Um, his entire fortune is based on tax fraud. Your values are superior to anyone who tolerates this.

The big one for me is intellectual honesty. Tax cuts do not pay for themselves. Climate change is not a hoax. These are the only intellectually honest positions on these issues. Sadly, bible beaters and rednecks aren't allowed intellectual honesty- racism and bible beaterism fall apart under scrutiny. Your values are superior to their benigheted ones, no matter how many centuries of apologia have gone into convincing the deluded otherwise.

But it doesn't matter. Your relative won't be reachable. May I suggest attempting to dig to China by banging your head against the floor instead?
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:22 PM
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Essentially, what you’re asking is “Give me five things for my uncle to rationalise on the spot until he loses patience, says ‘I’m entitled to my opinion’, and changes the subject”.
Of course, the reply to that should be, "And if I say that Trump is a Denebian slime devil, well, that's my opinion."
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:23 PM
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If Uncle Bob is retired military, MMM can illustrate how Trump has disrespected the military, its leadership and undermined the chain of command.
Trump is the Commander In Chief of the military; he hasn't undermined the chain of command. And you're assuming that a retired military lifer will take the side of the brass over the grunts; a risky assumption.

There is no point in trying to persuade anyone to be against Trump like this. People may indeed eventually turn against him, but it won't be because someone recited bullet points to them in a one-on-one conversation.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:24 PM
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All of these are based on facts -- mostly Trump's own words, or the words of his administration.

If "the other guy" isn't interested in such facts, then I'm not sure what the point of using things like "talking points" is. One can't be reasoned out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into. Maybe fabricated conspiracy theories and reddit memes would be more useful for swaying such a person?
It doesnt matter that they are based on facts if they don't persuade (as I've said in my previous posts). There are myriad studies that show that facts don't change political opinions and usually entrench them further. You can use factual arguments but they must target each individuals intuitive moral center. Most of your points have to do with Care and Fairness (see my first post), whereas the best arguments to come from a liberal (so as to not set off SJW alarms) would target Loyalty, Authority, and Sanctity. You can use Care and Fairness only if he considers those cared for, or shown fairness to, to be a member of his ingroup (ie not Mexicans). Your recommendation to bring up how Trump's charity stole from veterans is on point.

The best thing to do is find out what's important to them and from there one can best frame the argument. I don't have time right now to get into detail, but going in blind I'd probably mention your point about Trumps charity, violating the warrior code by abandoning the Kurds (again, your word is your bond), how the trade war is destroying our steel industry and farmers and has already bankrupted companies, how he promised to revive the coal industry but mines are closing everywhere, how said he didn't care about ballooning the deficit because "he'd be gone by the time it mattered," gave tax cuts to corporations who didn't invest but just bought back their own stock, says he wants to fight for coverage of pre-existing conditions while his admin is fighting the exact opposite in the courts, etc.

Last edited by KidCharlemagne; 12-02-2019 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:29 PM
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Trump is the Commander In Chief of the military; he hasn't undermined the chain of command. And you're assuming that a retired military lifer will take the side of the brass over the grunts; a risky assumption.
You undermine the chain of command when you reach down through the ranks and pardon someone who was convicted of a crime by a jury of his own peers, even before the ink has dried.
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  #32  
Old 12-02-2019, 04:36 PM
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Essentially, what you’re asking is “Give me five things for my uncle to rationalise on the spot until he loses patience, says ‘I’m entitled to my opinion’, and changes the subject”.
Perfect holiday opportunity to pull out the old, "You're not entitled to 'your opinion', you're entitled to an informed opinion."


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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Seriously, what’s the point? Has anyone ever changed their mind because of something a relative said at the dinner table?
"Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'." (MIB)

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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Honestly, if I live to be a thousand I’ll never understand this American obsession with using politics to ruin holidays.
It's tradition mostly.
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  #33  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:33 PM
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Dt is a wannabe fascist, and his followers are too. I think there are two things worth doing. One is to point out where trunp has let them down personally, by policies. What is it affecting #1? Make a schism in that system.

The second is to point out true stuff that dt has done which is humiliating or degrading, to them or to americans, and contrast this with trunps words. Bacially we need to treat dt like a toddler in all ways publicly. the more public ridicule he is under the better chance to strip voters away from him. He may act out, he may break down, but you never know until you put him under this pressure. it's long past time.
  #34  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:35 PM
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He's a liar, a cheat, and a crook. So was Bill Clinton, it's true, but millions of conservatives hated Clinton, while they seem to like Trump more every day.

If being a liar, a cheat, and a crook is okay with Uncle Bob, there isn't a whole lot you can say to change his mind.
  #35  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:54 PM
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If he is even remotely religious, or moral, bring up the fact that Trump is a unrepentant serial adulterer.
He is also on record saying he's never had to ask God for forgiveness for anything because he's never done anything bad enough to "get God involved in it."

These are but a few points I use to shut people down who praise Trump for being in the ballpark of a good or moral person, or as facts regarding his personal moral character. Even my dad concedes "I can't consider him a Christian at this point..."

All that to say it's easy to shut any religious-types down if they have that bent. As a bonus, none of them can ever crow on about immoral behavior of anyone on the Blue Team in perpetuity without me reminding them about "how they stopped caring about morality when it came to supporting Trump," with a list of aaaaaaaaaall the moral issues they suddenly found a way to just "not be bothered about."

Moving away form morals or religious reasons:

What about the "fiscal conservatives?" Don't they care about the deficit getting jacked back up?

The Trade war has rippled beyond just ruining the lives of farmers, it's now ruining farming and heavy equipment manufacturers and sales. John Deere is struggling. Farmer suicide is now at an all time high.

There's a cavalcade of individual wrongdoings you could cart out, I just don't know what exact angle you are looking for, so without further info in that regard I will digress.

But there's another approach that should maybe be considered: Pointing out how much damage Trump has done to Republicanism as a party. They've had to adapt and have become the Party of Trump, someone who wasn't really a Republican and doesn't particularly hold any related values or principles (he holds *no* values and *no* principles whatsoever).

Because of this, the party is shrinking more under Trump than it even was before, with younger people so turned off by him that they are lost forever to that party. Prominent republicans have renounced the party over their embrace of him.

Finally--I'll leave you with this:

I do not expect to change anyone's opinions about Trump. It's cultish tribalism and as others have stated, facts no longer matter. But what I *can* do, and DO do, is teach people that, at the very least, they will regret bringing up politics with me. A professor I often work with has learned not to bring up politics/Trump with me because I will quiz him on all the atrocious things Trump has done, things he is willfully ignorant to because he doesn't want to have to justify supporting such things. So he's learned not to bring it up around me.

My family knows not to bring it up because I will blast them with the religious hypocrisy.

My SO's family knows not to bring it up because I challenge them by suggesting I'm going to teach their grandson to do/say/behave like Trump, "I should teach little Adam how he can grab women by the pussy if he's famous enough, and that women who disagree with him are 'pigs' and 'dogs.'" When they get indignant, I just say "well he'd just be acting PRESIDENTIAL." They know their position is indefensible, so they just rather not talk about such things with me at all.

And that's all I can really hope for--to just leave me alone when it comes to politics. Not to change minds.

Last edited by dontbesojumpy; 12-02-2019 at 05:57 PM.
  #36  
Old 12-02-2019, 07:29 PM
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In response to the OP:

As others have pointed out, you can't win over Uncle Bob by bringing up a list of bullet points of things that don't bother Uncle Bob. For instance, if Bob is pro-life, then lamenting over the fact that Trump's judges may restrict abortion is hardly going to win Bob over, it'll just make him more pro-Trump.

You can bring up Trump's friendly relations with dictators, betrayal of the Kurds, "seize guns first, then due process later," etc.

But then comes the trickiest part: Assuming Bob is a conservative, you'll have to find a way to convince him that the Democrats would do a better job of being conservative than Trump. I don't see how you can pull that off.
  #38  
Old 12-02-2019, 07:56 PM
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Mean Mr. Mustard,

Just a suggestion for you to mull over: Rather than trying to hit Uncle Bob with your prepped talking points at Christmas, why not engage him in a conversation. You might even consider doing it via email or an old-fashioned letter to give him some time to consider his responses and not leave him feeling ambushed. Ask him why he is fine with President Trump. What has he done that Uncle Bob approves of? Have there been things he's done that Uncle Bob disapproves of? You might find that a more productive and interesting conversation.
  #39  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RioRico View Post
A president who:

- said he wanted to fuck his underage daughter - on-air with Howard Stern
- said "confiscate guns now; due process later" - tweeted twice
- bragged about mafia dealings and obstruction of justice - in tweets
- said there are nice Nazis - my dad and uncles fought Nazis; were they on the wrong side?
- cheats on his taxes, so the rest of us get to pay-up for him
- could kill the Owned-by-Russia accusations by releasing his financials
- hires undocumented aliens to work his resorts - told by the workers
- fraudulently draft-dodged (said his podiatrist's daughter); now attacks heroes, pardons thugs
- destroys official documents (rips up his papers) and alters others (like a NOAA weather map)

Those are some top-of-my-head factual points. I could add cheating on all his wives, bragging of sexual assaults, molesting underage beauty contestants, stealing tips from his resort staff, and hating household pets. It's a start.
And people in Trump Land will say:

-Fake news
-Fake news
-Fake news
-Liberal media
-300 angry democrats!
-Failing New York Times
-Fake news
-Witch hunt!
-Hoax!

I've given up. I have an older brother who has said that his family will leave (any holiday dinner) if we start complaining about Trump again.
  #40  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
And people in Trump Land will say:

-Fake news
-Fake news
-Fake news
-Liberal media
-300 angry democrats!
-Failing New York Times
-Fake news
-Witch hunt!
-Hoax!

I've given up. I have an older brother who has said that his family will leave (any holiday dinner) if we start complaining about Trump again.
I don't know what imaginary planet you think we're living on, but no one I've ever talked to who supports Trump is so asinine as to repeat Trump's twitter rants. I'm guessing you've never met anyone who says that stuff like this, either.

Sure, they're dug in, and their minds are made up, but I've never encountered anyone who wants to dig into defending his behavior.

My point is the fictionalized version of "Trump supporters" portrayed in this thread mirror's Trump himself, not any real human I've ever encountered outside r/The_Donald, which aren't even real people.
  #42  
Old 12-03-2019, 01:04 AM
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Since facts won't convince worshipers of the God-Emperor, mind-altering drugs may be the only humane alternative long-term. Or subliminal hypnotic messages injected in Fox-Breitbart-Infowars-etc video feeds, with an unmasking to reveal the insectoid creature under the orange toupee. But don't show the Pee Tape - it's too exciting.
  #43  
Old 12-03-2019, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Mean Mr. Mustard,

Just a suggestion for you to mull over: Rather than trying to hit Uncle Bob with your prepped talking points at Christmas, why not engage him in a conversation. You might even consider doing it via email or an old-fashioned letter to give him some time to consider his responses and not leave him feeling ambushed. Ask him why he is fine with President Trump. What has he done that Uncle Bob approves of? Have there been things he's done that Uncle Bob disapproves of? You might find that a more productive and interesting conversation.
This, from the poster that defended Junior's "trigger your family" tweet?
  #44  
Old 12-03-2019, 02:29 AM
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I definitely find myself in agreement with KidCharlamagne in terms of general approach, and I agree with the suggestion to not blindside someone.


My question for the Dope is how many kids were separated at the border before Trump/Millers zero tolerance era? I know that that law existed for awhile, but how often was it used? My understanding was that it was created to pull kids away from traffickers', and I would have assumed it was invoked infrequently, but any numbers?
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  #45  
Old 12-03-2019, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by outlierrn View Post
My question for the Dope is how many kids were separated at the border before Trump/Millers zero tolerance era? I know that that law existed for awhile, but how often was it used? My understanding was that it was created to pull kids away from traffickers', and I would have assumed it was invoked infrequently, but any numbers?
Traffickers, abusive parents, parents caught committing violent crimes, etc.

I don't know the numbers but given that those are all fairly rare things compared to simple, normal travel over the border by bland, ordinary people it's reasonable to say that it should have been blindingly obvious to anyone with a brain that you would need to increase the human and physical resources devoted to jailing and prosecuting illegal immigrants by a hundred or thousand times to enact a zero tolerance policy and expect to accomplish anything except taxing the system and causing it to fail out and become even less effective at preventing illegal immigration than it already had been.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-03-2019 at 04:34 AM.
  #46  
Old 12-03-2019, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
You undermine the chain of command when you reach down through the ranks and pardon someone who was convicted of a crime by a jury of his own peers, even before the ink has dried.
Are you serious? The President is looking out for the little guy, making sure that the liberal deep state military judicial establishment isn't punishing true warriors who know what needs to be done to kill ISIS and protect America!
  #47  
Old 12-03-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
This, from the poster that defended Junior's "trigger your family" tweet?
You were in that thread, so you ought to know that I said I consider it "bad form".

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 12-03-2019 at 10:34 AM.
  #48  
Old 12-03-2019, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by outlierrn View Post
... My question for the Dope is how many kids were separated at the border before Trump/Millers zero tolerance era? I know that that law existed for awhile, but how often was it used? My understanding was that it was created to pull kids away from traffickers', and I would have assumed it was invoked infrequently, but any numbers?
I've never seen any Doper provide a number for what you ask. They usually handwave it away. Cognitive dissonance in action.
  #49  
Old 12-03-2019, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
You were in that thread, so you ought to know that I said I consider it "bad form".
What you actually did was try to turn it into an "Obama did it too!" thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Even with the roles as they actually are, I consider it "bad form". Can I ask your opinion of Obama's "get in their faces" quote? (please note, I don't want to sidetrack the thread with that tangent, just a simple "approve" or "disapprove" from you should suffice)

Last edited by Czarcasm; 12-03-2019 at 10:39 AM.
  #50  
Old 12-03-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I've never seen any Doper provide a number for what you ask. They usually handwave it away. Cognitive dissonance in action.
When we don't have the numbers requested, it isn't "Cognitive dissonance" not to make numbers up. If you have those numbers, of course, then accuse away.
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