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Old 12-06-2019, 12:22 AM
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Is Mike Pence less likely to win election than Trump? Would he be a worse President?


This might seem like it belongs in the Pit, but there are scenarios (death, resignation, GOP fatigue with their leader's criminality) that could lead to Mike Pence being the GOP nominee in 2020.

George Will calls Mike Pence "Worse than Trump".

Quote:
Trump is what he is, a foundering, inarticulate jumble of gnawing insecurities and not-at-all compensating vanities, which is pathetic.
Pence is what he has chosen to be, which is horrifying.
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:12 AM
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My sense is that Pence cares about the country. He may have views that I do not agree with, but I'm far more comfortable with the idea of Pence representing the US on the world stage than I am about Trump. He wouldn't lead by tweet. I think he can read. Really, there are a lot of positives.
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:14 AM
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Trump is an incompetent psychopath. My fear is that Pence is a competent one.
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:14 AM
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Trump is an incompetent psychopath. My fear is that Pence is a competent one.
I wouldn't call Pence a psychopath. But I agree he's far more competent than Trump and he would do a lot more bad things than Trump would be able to manage to do.

But on the whole, I'd rather see Pence as President. I agree he'd do a lot of bad things. But I feel that he would be able to avoid doing really horrible things, which Trump might cause through his incompetence. And I feel that Pence and the Republicans in Congress are probably already quietly doing a lot of those bad things under the cover which Trump's loud incompetence gives them.

A Pence presidency would be as bad as another George W. Bush presidency. But there's nothing that's as bad as a Trump presidency. He bottoms out.

At least so far. The downward progression of Republican Presidents suggests that the next Republican President will somehow be worse than Trump.

As for who's more likely to win an election, I have no idea. I can't imagine why anyone would vote for either man, so obviously I don't understand how they would pick one over the other.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 12-06-2019 at 03:16 AM.
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:39 AM
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If we were talking about a first term, I would usually prefer Trump to Pence, but:

1) I think that there's sufficient evidence that Trump has been compromised by other heads of state that he's not only a national security risk but he has already so been forced into or lead into damaging our national security to a sufficient extent that we need pretty much anyone else other than Donald Trump, to start repairing things. If that person is Pence, ideally, he'll be so busy doing that, that he won't be able to do anything very Pence-like.
2) I do think that Pence is less likely to win than Trump. Regardless that by all measures, including Trumpist and Republican measures, Trump has completely failed to do anything as President,* the Right has painted themselves so fully into the corner that they're going to double-down on dumb right to the last breath. So, right there, you have 42%ish of the population and the electoral college moves that a ways closer to 50%**. You also have to consider that:
  • Trump has failed to ruin the economy that Obama built*** and the odds are good that it will stay that way through the election. The good economy will favor him more than it would Pence since his face is the one attached to it, at the moment.
  • China will want Trump to stay in as President of the USA. They can and will sign an agreement to end the Trade War just in time for the election, sky-rocketing the market and giving all of that to Trump. In return, Trump will immediately drop all tariffs and neither keep nor use any means of policing the things that China agreed to in the deal. It will be a sham and the specifics won't come out until after the election.
  • Trump will repeat and amplify his strategy of race warfare that he used in the mid-terms (with the rapist, terrorist, Liberal caravan that was attacking our borders). He'll frighten people into believing that it's him or white genocide.
3) Trump will view a win of a second term as a "proof" of his greatness and ability to win despite everything going against him. At the moment, Trump listens to McConnell and the Senate; he lets them pack the White House with somewhat reasonable human beings; he gives in when everyone tells him that backing out of NATO or appointing his sister to the Supreme Court would be horrible and insane; he restrains himself from firing people like Rosenstein and Sessions when McConnell tells him that they'll let the Democrats impeach and remove him; and so on. Trump is a risk taker. He's gotten the lay of the land, he's pushed and pushed, replacing Sessions with Barr, letting Turkey murder the Kurds, straight-up saying on TV that he's a Nationalist who thinks that KKK has good people in it****, etc. He saw with Turkey's invasion of Syria, as example, that the Senate was ultimately toothless and that they're all craven enough to suckle his teat over McConnell's if he can move the people in an election year. If he wins 2020, he will have no fear and he'll throw all caution to the wind. A second term Trump will be far far worse than a first term Pence.

Mitch McConnell is too enamored of his own talents if he thinks he can safely allow Trump a second term. Be smart Mitch. Do your magic to get the guy gone before he turns from being your sweet Zaphod Beeblebrox into the terror that is Caligula.

* Except failing to derail the tax cut with his "wall" and "ObamaCare first!" declarations that nearly removed all Republican wins from the first two years of being 100% in power.
** I'm not sure by how much.
*** Nervousness around the Trade War probably acted to rein in speculation and capital outlays despite all attempts to create a hot market creating a labor shortage leading to a swath of failed investments and loan defaults. I think it's reasonable to say that Trump didn't expect his little war to flatline the stock market nor that the Fed would refuse to invent infinite money for him to toy with so I give him no credit for failing to fail.
**** That's insane that that's not hyperbole.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-06-2019 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Is there a reason you couldn't link to Will's actual column? Because I'm not interested in people (even Will) talking about what he said, I want to read what he actually wrote, in context.

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Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
My sense is that Pence cares about the country.
Pence cares about turning the US into a Christian theocracy.

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Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
He may have views that I do not agree with, but I'm far more comfortable with the idea of Pence representing the US on the world stage than I am about Trump. He wouldn't lead by tweet. I think he can read. Really, there are a lot of positives.
You are correct, Pence, being an actual politician, is far more polished and diplomatic. He would do a good job of representing the US.

But I lived with him as governor for four years. I can think of a lot of negatives.

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Originally Posted by TimeWinder View Post
Trump is an incompetent psychopath. My fear is that Pence is a competent one.
^ This.

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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I wouldn't call Pence a psychopath. But I agree he's far more competent than Trump and he would do a lot more bad things than Trump would be able to manage to do.
Yes, he's more competent, that's the danger.

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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
But on the whole, I'd rather see Pence as President. I agree he'd do a lot of bad things. But I feel that he would be able to avoid doing really horrible things, which Trump might cause through his incompetence.
I disagree.

As governor he did a bunch of bad stuff I don't have time to detail right now, but he's just as pro-coal, anti-energy conservation, and climate-change-denying. He's a religious fanatic. He not only believes homosexuals can be re-programmed into heterosexuals he's an advocate of the practice.

If you're the "proper" sort of Christian heterosexual you have little to fear from Pence... but if you're not he is your enemy. He wants to eliminate you, if not with bullets than with "therapy".

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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
A Pence presidency would be as bad as another George W. Bush presidency.
I disagree. Pence would be worse than Bush.
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Old 12-06-2019, 06:10 AM
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I disagree. Pence would be worse than Bush.
Sadly.

The spectrum of options we're being presented with in recent times runs the gamut from earthworm pink to gas station ceiling crap stain brown.

Whee.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:11 AM
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Is there a reason you couldn't link to Will's actual column? Because I'm not interested in people (even Will) talking about what he said, I want to read what he actually wrote, in context.
This is probably the column to which septimus refers:
Trump is no longer the worst person in government by George Will, Washington Post, May 9, 2018. (Yes, this if from a year and a half ago.)

The elegant and articulate Mr. Will doesn't mince his words:
Quote:
Donald Trump, with his feral cunning, knew. The oleaginous Mike Pence, with his talent for toadyism and appetite for obsequiousness, could, Trump knew, become Americaís most repulsive public figure. And Pence, who has reached this pinnacle by dethroning his benefactor, is augmenting the public stock of useful knowledge. Because his is the authentic voice of todayís lickspittle Republican Party, he clarifies this yearís elections: Vote Republican to ratify groveling as governing.
The following day, May 10, 2018, Ed Kilgore quotes and amplifies on this in New York Magazine:
George Will Calls ĎRepulsiveí Pence Worse Than Trump
Quote:
But in a White House known for extreme turbulence and the constant ebb and flow of POTUSí affections, fears, and moods, Pence has chosen to maintain his status via a degree of obsequiousness that is embarrassing even to watch. As Jonathan Chait observed last year, the vice-president has made a particularly cringeworthy habit of publicly admiring Trumpís ďbroad-shoulderedĒ leadership traits. Becoming Chief Toady may have solidified Penceís position as putative successor to Trump as leader of the GOP and of MAGA country. But it is beginning to destroy the subtle separation of the party from Trump and Trumpism that made him especially useful to Trump-o-skeptic conservatives.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:17 AM
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ETA (Missed edit window):
Context: This was just a short time after that infamous Cabinet meeting in which most of the members present stampeded all over one another to see who could pile the deepest heap of accolades and hosannas on Trump.
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Last edited by Senegoid; 12-06-2019 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:24 AM
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Additional ETA: Those lines that septimus quotes in the OP,
Quote:
Trump is what he is, a floundering, inarticulate jumble of gnawing insecurities and not-at-all compensating vanities, which is pathetic.
Pence is what he has chosen to be, which is horrifying.
come from the final lines of Will's column, linked two posts above.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:55 AM
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Less likely to win? Absolutely. He has no charisma whatsoever. Even Mike Dukakis outshines him.

Worse president? Not really. He'd nominate the same extremist judges, which is all he would care about. We'd have the boilerplate Republican tax cut policies and a return to the standard American foreign policy of the post WW II era.
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Old 12-06-2019, 09:13 AM
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Trump panders to the right wing Christian fundamentalists without believing in it. Pence believes it and in my opinion would like a fundamentalist Christian based government.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
I disagree.

As governor he did a bunch of bad stuff I don't have time to detail right now, but he's just as pro-coal, anti-energy conservation, and climate-change-denying. He's a religious fanatic. He not only believes homosexuals can be re-programmed into heterosexuals he's an advocate of the practice.

If you're the "proper" sort of Christian heterosexual you have little to fear from Pence... but if you're not he is your enemy. He wants to eliminate you, if not with bullets than with "therapy".
I certainly agree that Pence would be a terrible President and would do many terrible things. But I feel I can imagine the limits of what Pence would do as President. I don't feel confident that there is a limit to how bad the things Trump might do are. Pence is in control of what he's doing in a way that Trump is not so Pence would not stumble into a disaster the way that Trump might.

I also feel that we're already getting a lot of the bad things we'd get from a Pence administration. I feel that Pence is quietly acting as a Cheney figure in this administration; he's getting things done while everyone is watching Trump play with matches. We might actually be better if Pence was the top man and people were keeping a closer eye on him (in addition to the obvious benefits of not having Trump in that position).

Last edited by Little Nemo; 12-06-2019 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:02 PM
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Pence would be better than Trump. He won’t be making foreign policy or trade policy while constipated on the toilet via Twitter. When I worked in the financial markets. I had to monitor Twitter constantly for any stupid shit he would say and rock the futures markets.

He’d ram through as many right wing judges as he could. He probably knows their names. He probably would have pulled Kavanaugh and nominated another right wing clone.

He’s really anti gay but since Trump allows right wing bigots handle the anti gay stuff, the policies would be basically the same. The Supreme Court isn’t going to revisit marriage equality and the business wing of the party is glad that it’s settled. It can’t be good for business to have different marriage laws by states, that screws up HR benefits and makes it hard for employees to move to a different office.

He’d get a lot of the Trump voters but wouldn’t get the bull in the China shop voters or the ones who think government should be run like a business. He makes Mitt Romney look like 1992 Bill Clinton as far as charisma. Pence isn’t the guy you’d want to have a beer with, he’s the awkward executive at your company Christmas party that you just want to get away from.
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:56 PM
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To the question - Is Mike Pence less likely to win election than Trump?

Um, abso-frikin-lutely. Trump is all marketing all the time forever. All that fuss and bluster is marketing, his Twitter tirades are marketing, his pandering to various blocks is marketing.

Whereas Pence? Casper the friendly ghost? The only one that is more of a cipher than him is Jared Kushner, who is frankly a blow-up doll of a human. Can you imagine Pence standing in front of a crowd and getting them chanting? If, through some alternate history, Pence had been one of the GOP primary candidates during the last cycle, Trump would have dispatched him within seconds with some snarky comment, "Pence? Oh, I didn't see him standing there - I still don't."
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:19 PM
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He'd be much worse. He wants a white, christian nation. He wants to declare we are an official christian nation. And he sucks up to the worst t type of sinner a bible-thumper would hate.
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:37 PM
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I've lived in Indiana while Pence was governor. He wasn't bad. Wasn't particularly good either. If a Republican ex-governor of Indiana had to be President, I would prefer Mitch Daniels, who had a decent libertarian bent and brought some innovative approaches to trimming the budget, improving education, and tackling problems in government. Pence is our standard, dull, and cowardly Republican. During his tenure Indiana did reasonably well by economic and budget measures. By some measures we're a bit above average, and by some we're a bit below, but neither can be credited or blamed to Pence's bold and innovative measures since he didn't have any. If he were President, I expect he'd hold the standard Republican pursuit of tax cuts, endless war, and ever-increasing military spending.

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He's a religious fanatic. He not only believes homosexuals can be re-programmed into heterosexuals he's an advocate of the practice.
This is flatly untrue.
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:37 PM
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He'd be much worse. He wants a white, christian nation. He wants to declare we are an official christian nation. And he sucks up to the worst t type of sinner a bible-thumper would hate.
But how much more political power would he have? Heís still stuck with a Democratic House.
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Old 12-07-2019, 03:16 AM
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Is there a reason you couldn't link to Will's actual column?
Pro-Tip: If YOU want to find a reference which is quoted at SDMB, drag your mouse over the quotation and copy-paste it into the search term of your favorite search engine. HTH.

I seldom click on washingtonpost links myself. Sometimes they work OK; sometimes I find I've exceeded my quota (which I think is Zero). I've given you a tip; can you reciprocate? What's a simple reliable way to view washingtonpost articles without paying for the privilege?
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Old 12-07-2019, 04:48 AM
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Here’s a link to the actual column, which was written 18 months ago.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...9ef_story.html
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Old 12-07-2019, 05:24 AM
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Pro-Tip: If YOU want to find a reference which is quoted at SDMB, drag your mouse over the quotation and copy-paste it into the search term of your favorite search engine. HTH.

I seldom click on washingtonpost links myself. Sometimes they work OK; sometimes I find I've exceeded my quota (which I think is Zero). I've given you a tip; can you reciprocate? What's a simple reliable way to view washingtonpost articles without paying for the privilege?
Well, uh, OK, that's for giving me several reasons, I guess. What makes you think those links work any better for me, or that my quota is larger than yours?

And around here, it's usually expected that YOU provide the source material, but whatever.

Thanks to everyone who actually provided an actual link.
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Old 12-07-2019, 05:29 AM
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Pro-Tip: If YOU want to find a reference which is quoted at SDMB, drag your mouse over the quotation and copy-paste it into the search term of your favorite search engine. HTH.

I seldom click on washingtonpost links myself. Sometimes they work OK; sometimes I find I've exceeded my quota (which I think is Zero). I've given you a tip; can you reciprocate? What's a simple reliable way to view washingtonpost articles without paying for the privilege?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia View Post
Hereís a link to the actual column, which was written 18 months ago.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...9ef_story.html
See Posts #8, 9, and 10, above.

I've mentioned it multiple times on these boards and gotten jeered for it every time: Just disable fucking Javascript in your browser and you'll find that a lot of things happen differently, some for the better and some not so much so. One thing for the better: At WaPo and a variety of other news sites, you can then view articles to your hearts content without any paywall hassles. HTH. (You might have to clear cookies too, but I don't think so.)

And: What septimus says about how to find articles, given quotes from said articles.
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Old 12-07-2019, 06:26 AM
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I've lived in Indiana while Pence was governor. He wasn't bad. Wasn't particularly good either.
Yeah, I live there, too. I'd say he sucked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ITR champion View Post
If a Republican ex-governor of Indiana had to be President, I would prefer Mitch Daniels, who had a decent libertarian bent and brought some innovative approaches to trimming the budget, improving education, and tackling problems in government.
Anyone with half a brain would prefer Mitch Daniels, but he doesn't want to run.

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Pence is our standard, dull, and cowardly Republican. During his tenure Indiana did reasonably well by economic and budget measures.
That's fine if you ONLY measure success by money. I consider other things as well, like public health and how minorities are treated. Also, whether or not someone is making law in accordance with scientific fact as opposed to Bronze Age mythology.

And that's a charming apology piece for Pence you linked to. Since I have a bit more time this morning, let me enlighten people here on some of the bad things he did, and just as important, the things he did not do:

- Failed to declare the East Chicago contamination sites a state emergency, or at least something to be worried about, when it was clear by 2009 that the neighborhoods built on the site of a former lead smelter were heavily contamined, people living there were being poisoned by the lead, and really, it should be every bit as scandalous as the Flint, Michigan scandal except that while in Flint you can purchase non-toxic water if you have to but in East Chicago the very land is poisoned. You're standing on it, walking on it, driving on it, living on it, breathing the dust every minute you're there.

- Shut down the ONLY HIV clinic in Scott county during an HIV outbreak. Because it was a Planned Parenthood clinic. The name on the sign was the ONLY reason - no abortions were performed there. And it was the ONLY clinic in the entire county providing care for people infected with HIV. Scott county still has no HIV treatment for those with the virus.

- The execrable passage of the so-called "Religious Freedom Restoration Act" which legalized religious bigotry in Indiana. The NCAA, Gen Con, and Disciples of Christ all spoke out against the law (and Gen Con took their convention elsewhere). Apple, Salesforce, and Angie's List all changed plans to expand in Indiana, costing thousands of jobs that could have been filled by Hoosiers but went elsewhere. At least five state Republicans voted against it, and the mayor of Indianapolis, kind of pissed about losing potential jobs and convention business, also protested. Oh, yeah - he's another Republican, too. Forget Pence's bullshit comment about restaurants serving gay people - this legislation was clearly targeted at the LGBQT community, allowing discrimination against them, and just screw any job losses or business losses to the state it causes. (The law was specifically amended to correct the bigotry loophole) Oh, and since it would have legalized housing discrimination that wouldn't have helped housing and homeless problems among the affected demographics at all. Thank Og we got that one amended.

- Requiring not just abortions but also the remains from miscarriages at any state of pregnancy to be buried or cremated. Miscarry at 8 weeks? Gotta buy a coffin, find a funeral director... I guess you'd use a magnifying glass and a tweezers to find the little blob from the rest of the jettisoned bodily fluids but the law is the law, amirite? Oh, and it banned abortion even for grievous developmental defects. No matter how fucked up the fetus the woman would have to continue to carry it. Mind you, it still remained lawful for a woman with a healthy fetus to have an abortion at, say, nine weeks but if there was a defect it would illegal to abort it. What a fucked up notion of a law which, thankfully, was declared unconstitutional. But what the hell, let's promote a guy who thinks unconstitutional laws are a great idea to PotUS.

- Tried set up Indiana Pravda JustIN to provide pro-administration propaganda under the illusion of being a "news service". So no, he doesn't tweet while sitting the toilet, he takes a much more polished approach to propaganda.

- Tried to ban Syrian refugees from settling in Indiana. Always wondered how his predecessor Mitch Daniels felt about that - Mr. Daniels has Syrian ancestry but for some reason he's not objectionable, why is that? (Hint: religion is a factor)

- Blocked legal requests for public documents. Repeatedly

- Used an AOL account for government business. Oh, wait, he's Republican so it's alright, only Democrats are evil for doing that, amirite?

- Believes the movie Mulan is feminnazi propaganda. Also, said it proved women in the military were a bad idea. Sort of like another Indiana politician (and, coincidentally, VPotUS) Dan Quayle thinking a TV show was a promotion of single motherhood WTF? I know the concept of "fiction" exists in this state, but apparently not everyone understands the concept.

- Promotes abstinence-only sex "education". Which has been proven to not work nearly as well as actually educating people about sex. Cue whining about teen pregnancy rates and out-of-wedlock births because keeping people ignorant and banning abortions couldn't possibly have anything to do with that number, amirite?

- Said that condoms are very poor protection against STD's. Guess Pence only had abstinence-only ignorance himself. Gosh, no wonder the HIV rate in Indiana shot up under him - shut down clinics AND tell people condoms don't work. Good job, asshole.

- Climate change denier. What next, the Earth is flat?

- Has claimed that smoking doesn't kill people. Wonder what he thinks about vaping?

- The religious issues. He's a born-again evangelical. It's public record that
--- he is anti-evolution and pro-creationism
--- he is Dominionist, which means the end goal is a religious theocracy with Bible-based laws. His Bible, of course, meaning his interpretation.
--- he believes he is chosen by God to be a political leader. Ditto for Trump. Which would hilarious if we weren't talking about real life and real lives.
--- the whole "would fund gay conversion therapy through public taxes" isn't proven and his statements (presumably) deliberately ambiguous, but considering everything else he's done I'm inclined to believe that claim to be true.

Now, I suppose if you're a heterosexual, conservative, Evangelical Christian yourself with Dominionist leanings that's all OK. For the rest of us - the not Christian, the liberal, the not heterosexual, and/or people with a fact-based approach to life - he looks really bad.
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:35 AM
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Trump is an incompetent malignant idiot.
Pence is a competent malign force.

Given no other alternative, I'd take another 4 years of Trump rather than 4 years of Pence.
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:43 AM
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See Posts #8, 9, and 10, above.

I've mentioned it multiple times on these boards and gotten jeered for it every time: Just disable fucking Javascript in your browser and you'll find that a lot of things happen differently, some for the better and some not so much so. One thing for the better: At WaPo and a variety of other news sites, you can then view articles to your hearts content without any paywall hassles. HTH. (You might have to clear cookies too, but I don't think so.)

And: What septimus says about how to find articles, given quotes from said articles.
Iím generally pretty aware of the source when I post a link, and I try to avoid paywalled sites, even if Iím subscribed.

But sometimes it canít be helped. If I want to link to the full and complete text of a Washington Post editorial, Iíve got to link to WaPo.
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:57 AM
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See Posts #8, 9, and 10, above.

I've mentioned it multiple times on these boards and gotten jeered for it every time: Just disable fucking Javascript in your browser and you'll find that a lot of things happen differently, some for the better and some not so much so. One thing for the better: At WaPo and a variety of other news sites, you can then view articles to your hearts content without any paywall hassles. HTH. (You might have to clear cookies too, but I don't think so.)

And: What septimus says about how to find articles, given quotes from said articles.
Iím generally pretty aware of the source when I post a link, and I try to avoid paywalled sites, even if Iím subscribed.

But sometimes it canít be helped. If I want to link to the full and complete text of a Washington Post editorial, Iíve got to link to WaPo.
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:05 AM
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If somehow Trump does not run next year I don't think it's a lock that Pence runs . There are other people the GOP might pick other than Pence such as Rubio.
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Old 12-07-2019, 12:09 PM
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If somehow Trump does not run next year I don't think it's a lock that Pence runs . There are other people the GOP might pick other than Pence such as Rubio.
Given that Romney seems to be the only one with a spine and has some experience - knowing, perhaps, what not to do this time around - I'd probably hope that he would make a second go.
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Old 12-07-2019, 03:48 PM
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Trump fans don't like Romney since has criticized Trump so Romney would not have much of a chance.
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Old 12-07-2019, 05:44 PM
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But sometimes it canít be helped. If I want to link to the full and complete text of a Washington Post editorial, Iíve got to link to WaPo.
OK, I think people misunderstood my objections. In fact, I actually DO have a WaPo subscription on my Kindle so the paywall isn't an obstacle.

What I don't understand is why, if you want to discuss a George Will editorial you don't link to the actual editorial. Instead, the OP linked to a bunch of people discussing the editorial. Did he want to discuss the discussion?

If you want to discuss X then link to X, not a bunch of talking heads rambling on about X. I can do my own rambling, thank you very much.
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Old 12-07-2019, 06:29 PM
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Pence's 2020 Presidential Election Odds: not great, but better than any GOP beside Tramp. If Pence takes the Oval Office after Tramp resigns for medical reasons soon, do Pence's 2020 odds increase?

Nixon chose Agnew as an anti-assassination shield, as did Bush Sr with Quayle -- shoot the Prez and you'll get worse! Tramp wasn't so smart re: Pence who, while vile, isn't scary enough to deter a motivated attacker. Which is the lesser evil?
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Old 12-07-2019, 06:37 PM
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Trump is an incompetent malignant idiot.
Pence is a competent malign force.

Given no other alternative, I'd take another 4 years of Trump rather than 4 years of Pence.
Trump's base---and thus his support among Congressional Republicans---dwarfs Pence's base. No one in Congress feels they can stop Trump, for fear of being targeted by his base. Consequently, Trump has had the power to do massively awful stuff.

Pence will not have that power.
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Old 12-08-2019, 02:07 AM
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I wouldn't call Pence a psychopath.
Have you heard him talk about gays and non-Christians? He makes the Spanish Inquisition sound like screaming militant atheists.
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Old 12-08-2019, 12:00 PM
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Trump's base---and thus his support among Congressional Republicans---dwarfs Pence's base. No one in Congress feels they can stop Trump, for fear of being targeted by his base. Consequently, Trump has had the power to do massively awful stuff.

Pence will not have that power.
Prior to Trump, there was Moscow Mitch and the Senate with the Republican majority. Unless that changes, Pence will have all the power he requires and the base will line up behind anyone that keeps the Democrats from having legislative and executive control.

Trump hasn't made it easy for Mitch. Pence will make Mitch's job much easier. Also, while Trump has led a bureaucracy of incompetence, Pence will rectify that with building a far more competently evil apparatus.
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Old 12-08-2019, 05:11 PM
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..

Pence cares about turning the US into a Christian theocracy.....
Better than a Russian colony.
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Old 12-08-2019, 05:54 PM
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I have seen this asked on other political sites and the consensus " if he's in charge we'll be the republic of Gilead in a decade or less " seems to be the norm ... .even in moderately conservative places

Last edited by nightshadea; 12-08-2019 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 12-08-2019, 07:26 PM
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Prior to Trump, there was Moscow Mitch and the Senate with the Republican majority. Unless that changes, Pence will have all the power he requires and the base will line up behind anyone that keeps the Democrats from having legislative and executive control.

Trump hasn't made it easy for Mitch. Pence will make Mitch's job much easier. Also, while Trump has led a bureaucracy of incompetence, Pence will rectify that with building a far more competently evil apparatus.
Well, maybe. I doubt it, though. Personal popularity counts for a lot in politics, and I can't see Mitch putting himself out for a guy with as little following as Mike Pence.

Trump has more acolytes among the professional political class than Pence does because Trump promises (and presumably delivers on) the oligarch-creating largess---granting contracts to those who fall in line, etc. Pence, I suspect, though desirous of power, is less willing to be as openly corrupt as Trump is. Ya gotta spread the cash around if you want fanatic followers.

We'll see, perhaps, in the fullness of time.
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Old 12-08-2019, 09:17 PM
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Q: Is Mike Pence less likely to win election than Trump?
A: Yes.

Q: Would he be a worse President?
A: Define "worse".

Q: If Tramp abdicates soon for medical issues, will newly-minted President Pence have a chance in 2020?
A: Rigging eliminates chance.
  #39  
Old 12-09-2019, 01:16 PM
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If I'm a passenger in a car I would rather have it driven by someone who is driving me to a place I don't want to go, than have an inebriated orangutan at the wheel.

I don't respect Pence, but at least I believe he wants the country to prosper, even if we differ in what that means and how to get there. Trump on the other hand would gladly drive the country into the ground provided he could stand up on top of the flaming wreckage and gloat.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 12-09-2019 at 01:19 PM.
  #40  
Old 12-11-2019, 10:39 AM
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I wouldn't call Pence a psychopath. But I agree he's far more competent than Trump and he would do a lot more bad things than Trump would be able to manage to do.
Good point. He's really more of a sociopath.
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