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Old 12-15-2019, 05:52 PM
HMS Irruncible is offline
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Latest Trump slurring episode


To date, I have been skeptical of the trope "Trump fumbled a word, therefore he is losing his mind." Cheap shots like that are easily countered by any photo of any other politician doing the same, which they all do at some point.

However, I am persuaded that something's going on when I see this bit from Dec 6th in which it appears that he has suddenly turned into Sean Connery. He's shushing all of his S's, not just one or two of them, in a way I've never heard him do before. In general his facial expressions look like he's really struggling to get through the speech, almost pained or anxious, not his typical grandstanding style.

He obviously didn't write this speech, so he might be experiencing some stress related to reading. But in any case, there's enough slurring to make me agree that the has, or is developing, a neurological issue that the WH has not yet disclosed.
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Old 12-15-2019, 06:52 PM
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You do realize the date on that video is December 6, 2017, not 2019, right? If this were really a significant neurological issue and not, say, a temporary problem with his dentures or something, I would expect it to have become noticeably worse over the last couple of years.
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Old 12-15-2019, 08:59 PM
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Oh wow, it just hit my feed today, I didn't realize it was 2017. So I guess I was wrong to completely dismiss it for the past 2 years ago, but it's not evidence of recent decline either.
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Old 12-15-2019, 09:27 PM
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I dislike him as much as the next guy, but I always just chalk that up to him not being a great public speaker. I routinely 'lose' a word here and there or trip over half a sentence. It says nothing about my intelligence, just that I'm usually talking to fast and getting ahead of myself. I've done it for as long as I can remember. Also, the people calling them him out speak in front of audiences and live on TV as a chosen profession. They're naturally going to be good at it.

This is one of those cases where I would say there's a lot of reasons to hate him but this isn't one.
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Old 12-15-2019, 09:59 PM
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I dislike him as much as the next guy, but I always just chalk that up to him not being a great public speaker. I routinely 'lose' a word here and there or trip over half a sentence. It says nothing about my intelligence, just that I'm usually talking to fast and getting ahead of myself. I've done it for as long as I can remember. Also, the people calling them him out speak in front of audiences and live on TV as a chosen profession. They're naturally going to be good at it.

This is one of those cases where I would say there's a lot of reasons to hate him but this isn't one.
Disagree. Trump in 1999 was in his 50s and he was a far more cogent, thoughtful person in control of his emotions than he is in his 70s. Something has happened and needs to be looked into. Compare how he talked in his 50s to now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_IG07XhT3k
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Old 12-15-2019, 10:02 PM
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Having watched the video, it sure seems to me like he is suffering from loose dentures.
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Old 12-16-2019, 12:25 AM
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Having watched the video, it sure seems to me like he is suffering from loose dentures.
I don't know denture symptoms, but the slurring did NOT strike me as suggestive of cerebral problem.

We can hope, however, that in some other way, Father Time does overtake the aging dotard in the coming months. Other than recession, that may be America's best chance for November success.
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Old 12-16-2019, 12:44 AM
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I think Trump does show signs of significant cognitive decline, but a lot of the slurring and such I also chalk up to loose dentures.
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Old 12-16-2019, 02:26 AM
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The problem with stuff like this is there are just too many variables. How long did this speech last, was he dehydrated when he started talking?

He definitely has some weird nasal thing going on in all his longer speeches, it could be so many things that it's only speculation: sinusitis, congestion, cocaine abuse, a deviated septum there is really no way to tell what's going on unless you were a doctor examining him. I don't think he has dentures, veneers more likely.
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Old 12-16-2019, 04:17 AM
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It's his dentures. I know this because he recently accused Pelosi of losing hers.

And we all know how he likes to project.
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Old 12-16-2019, 04:30 AM
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It's his dentures. I know this because he recently accused Pelosi of losing hers.

And we all know how he likes to project.
Yeah, he's as predictable as a six-year-old. Whatever he accuses of someone else is precisely what he has done.
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Old 12-16-2019, 08:25 AM
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It's his dentures. I know this because he recently accused Pelosi of losing hers.
This is a pretty powerful argument to me.

OK, I'm back to leaning toward his neuro issue being that of a stupid person who is very slowly and gently getting stupider, and he also is bobbling with ill-fitting dentures. I guess not even a gold-plated presidential dental plan of an alleged billionaire is effective enough to prevent those rotten fangs from wobbling around in his gob.

But at this point, if he had a stroke and lost 10% of his brain function, I don't know how I'd be able to discern that kind of division by zero.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 12-16-2019 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 12-16-2019, 08:39 AM
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I suspect Trump talks like that when he has something "official" to say because he's being given the words in his ear literally one at a time so he can't fuck it up, but I can't prove it.
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Old 12-16-2019, 08:48 AM
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Disagree. Trump in 1999 was in his 50s and he was a far more cogent, thoughtful person in control of his emotions than he is in his 70s. Something has happened and needs to be looked into. Compare how he talked in his 50s to now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_IG07XhT3k
In the intervening years he learned that pugnacious fireworks and letting it all hang out gets better ratings than cogent, thoughtful and in control, and it is a self-reinforcing cycle. But the substance of content was fundamentally the same wrt repetitive statements about how great I am, how my polls are the best, how I don't want just a symbolic win, how the other guy is a terrible loser (save for a denunciation of those who today would be "fine people on both sides"). Add simple mechanicals of loose dentures/lessened muscular control of breathing and you may get close to today's speech pattern.
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Old 12-16-2019, 08:51 PM
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I don't know denture symptoms, but the slurring did NOT strike me as suggestive of cerebral problem.
It's likely not a problem with cognition. But it could be cerebral-related without it having anything to do with cognitive ability. For example, MS can cause slurred speech. This is usually the result of weakness and/or incoordination of the muscles of the tongue, lips, cheeks and mouth.

As the movement of lips, tongue, etc., needed for speech are voluntary motor actions it would seem those are cerebral functions. I think.

Last edited by I Love Me, Vol. I; 12-16-2019 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 12-16-2019, 08:57 PM
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Disagree. Trump in 1999 was in his 50s and he was a far more cogent, thoughtful person in control of his emotions than he is in his 70s. Something has happened and needs to be looked into. Compare how he talked in his 50s to now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_IG07XhT3k
I'm gonna have to disagree on that interview. Here in this 99 interview he's doing mostly the same thing he is now, touting his popularity and the fake media. Granted he has more command of ideas that he thinks serves him, but it's like being fluent in a language with 10 words.

I'm not going to link it but he had a Letterman interview in 1980 where he seemed not totally stupid and not totally horrible, for an amoral real estate developer. Suffice to say it's night and day difference between now and then.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:41 AM
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I'm gonna have to disagree on that interview. Here in this 99 interview he's doing mostly the same thing he is now, touting his popularity and the fake media. Granted he has more command of ideas that he thinks serves him, but it's like being fluent in a language with 10 words.

I'm not going to link it but he had a Letterman interview in 1980 where he seemed not totally stupid and not totally horrible, for an amoral real estate developer. Suffice to say it's night and day difference between now and then.
I kind of think that sometime around the turn of the century he realized he really liked being in the public eye in a way he hadn't before. I mean, we'd heard of him prior to that in the 1980s as some sort of "world's richest man" sort of character, but in the early 2000s, it really ramped up with "The Apprentice" and the other stuff, and I think he's just homed in on what gets ratings/popularity/infamy.

That said, I'm not so convinced that all of this is just a ratings act; he really does seem to have some screws loose- the verbal diarrhea and mispronunciations are really odd.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:50 AM
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I kind of think that sometime around the turn of the century he realized he really liked being in the public eye in a way he hadn't before. I mean, we'd heard of him prior to that in the 1980s as some sort of "world's richest man" sort of character, but in the early 2000s, it really ramped up with "The Apprentice" and the other stuff, and I think he's just homed in on what gets ratings/popularity/infamy.
I think that can be true, and also maybe around that time he had lost the mental acuity to play any role more complicated than "world's richest aggrieved racist uncle".
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Old 12-17-2019, 11:05 AM
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I kind of think that sometime around the turn of the century he realized he really liked being in the public eye in a way he hadn't before.
I don't think he realized anything. For years he had been appearing in any commercial or movie or TV cameo he could get. He accepted every single opportunity. "The Apprentice" just turned out to be the biggest opportunity.
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Old 12-17-2019, 12:05 PM
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I don't think he realized anything.
True, it's always a risky proposition to suggest that trump realizes or thinks things. I don't think he does, no more than a shark realizes or thinks that he has sharp teeth and preys upon smaller fish, yet there must be some neural process that makes that happen.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:06 PM
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I don't think he realized anything. For years he had been appearing in any commercial or movie or TV cameo he could get. He accepted every single opportunity. "The Apprentice" just turned out to be the biggest opportunity.
Maybe it's just the point when he was perceived as more of a media personality in his own right than a rich guy who sometimes liked to be on WrestleMania and other silly cameos and stuff.

Of course, maybe it's just that his schtick has changed- originally his thing was to be super-rich and a byword for wealth and glamour, but at some point, the celebrity driving force changed from being his wealth, to being for its own sake, something like the way the Kardashians are famous for being famous.

Either way, that seems to be the point when he went from mostly respectable to being something of a self-caricature. I mean, did anyone actually take him seriously on The Apprentice? Clearly he was on there because he liked being on TV and the attention it brought him.

So the election and subsequent presidency have been more of the same- he can't stand being out of the spotlight, because his primary goal is to focus all attention on himself.

As for the slurring and mispronunciations; I don't know the answer to that, but I suspect the verbal diarrhea is a consequence of his deep seated need to be in the spotlight. Say enough BS and obnoxious stuff, and they'll keep the cameras on you, basically.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:18 PM
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Of course, maybe it's just that his schtick has changed- originally his thing was to be super-rich and a byword for wealth and glamour, but at some point, the celebrity driving force changed from being his wealth, to being for its own sake, something like the way the Kardashians are famous for being famous.
I don't think it was a change in his character. It was a change in his circumstances. He had failed in business so many times and stiffed his creditors so often that his creditors took away the reins of power from him and put him on salary with nothing to do. He got locked out of his businesses through repeated failure. He had literally nothing else to do. That gave him more time to do the pure celebrity-focused appearances, which matched his preferences anyway. He always wanted adulation. He never cared how he got it.
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Old 12-18-2019, 01:46 AM
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I mean, did anyone actually take him seriously on The Apprentice?
Yes. I know Trump supporters on Facebook who told me during the campaign what a brilliant, successful businessman Trump was and that's what we needed for a president (this in response to my speculation that Trump was suffering from mental illness, like early stages of dementia and, obviously, narcissism). When I asked what made them think Trump was a "brilliant, successful businessman" and pointed out his many bankruptcies and failed businesses and product lines, I was told I must not have seen The Apprentice and didn't appreciate Trump's genius and business acumen.

Trump is a genius at promoting himself to and conning his base. I'll give him that.

Last edited by dasmoocher; 12-18-2019 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 12-18-2019, 02:19 AM
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IIUC, Trump's actions and comments on The Apprentice were all scripted by the show's producers. He was just a strawman/showman, play-acting the single role he was comfortable with.
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Old 12-18-2019, 09:17 AM
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IIUC, Trump's actions and comments on The Apprentice were all scripted by the show's producers. He was just a strawman/showman, play-acting the single role he was comfortable with.
Exactly; not any of it was particularly relevant to the real business world from what I could tell. Or at least not any business world I've ever been part of, anyway.

It was a reality show engineered to play up the more cutthroat and adversarial aspects of inter-office culture, not a real reflection of how that works.
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Old 12-18-2019, 09:51 AM
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In fact, many times they had to edit in reverse to show why a contestant was fired despite doing well in the week's challenge.

https://www.cinemablend.com/televisi...more-difficult
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Old 12-18-2019, 10:52 AM
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IIUC, Trump's actions and comments on The Apprentice were all scripted by the show's producers. He was just a strawman/showman, play-acting the single role he was comfortable with.
Exactly. But some of the Trump supporters I know thought that was real. I've never seen The Apprentice, so I'm not sure how Trump was presented but they seem to think it showed what a titan of business Trump is.

Of course, some of them refuse to acknowledge that Trump has any failings. One of my "favorite" examples of this is when I said Trump sexually assaults women and that Trump himself admitted this on the Hollywood Access tape. One guy responded with "What's wrong with saying 'getting some pussy'?" He obviously had never listened to what Trump actually said. "Grab them by the pussy" was just fake news pushed by the "lamestream media" to him if he had even heard the phrase.

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Old 12-19-2019, 01:04 PM
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Of course, some of them refuse to acknowledge that Trump has any failings. One of my "favorite" examples of this is when I said Trump sexually assaults women and that Trump himself admitted this on the Hollywood Access tape. One guy responded with "What's wrong with saying 'getting some pussy'?" He obviously had never listened to what Trump actually said. "Grab them by the pussy" was just fake news pushed by the "lamestream media" to him if he had even heard the phrase.
I would hazard a guess that those types probably don't really understand sexual assault, misogyny or sexism as defined in the modern world. They're probably over there thinking "Powerful men are philanderers. It's the way of the world. Trump is just extra powerful, so it's not surprising that he's that way." And they're probably wondering what the whole kerfluffle is about that reporter's butt getting slapped at that marathon- it's just a butt slap to them, and they don't get the outrage.

Beyond that, they seem to have this misguided idea that anyone but the GOP is going to come in to power, tax all their money away, give it to undeserving poor people, and impose a large new set of regulations that take away their freedoms. Trump is agin' all that, so they're sticking with him, despite his BS.
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Old 12-20-2019, 12:26 AM
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But in any case, there's enough slurring to make me agree that the has, or is developing, a neurological issue that the WH has not yet disclosed.
Given that you only noticed it NOW, two years after the fact...

May I suggest you have yourself checked up instead?
This does display some significant cognitive dissonance on your part.
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