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  #101  
Old 12-20-2019, 12:25 PM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
I don't think they do. I want a cite for your claim that poor Asians are outperforming rich whites. Attendance at Stuyvesant High School isn't the only measure of performance -- are poor Asians getting into better colleges than rich whites? Maybe the local schools for the rich white kids are good enough that they don't need to go to Stuyvesant. I was a smart high school kid and I didn't bother applying to Stuyvesant because the commute from Queens would be awful, and I didn't need to because my school was good enough. Maybe rich whites are going to elite private schools and boarding schools.
Maybe the way i said it was confusing asians (who have a lower average income) outperforms whites (who have a higher average income).

https://infohub.nyced.org/docs/defau...-9-26-2018.pdf

Private schools also take these tests.

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In your argument with someone else above, you seem to switch from poor Asians to middle class Asians and you're limiting your example to that one high school. To me, this is evidence of almost nothing.
I am characterizing asians in NYC in general as poorer than whites. So when people say that opportunity=outcome I ask what extra opportunity do asians have that yields them better academic outcomes than whites? I'm not really making the arguments wrt stuyvesant right now. I can open a new thread about that issue in a separate thread if you like.

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So, anyway, please cite that poor Asians are outperforming rich white kids. Your argument is all over the place -- you cite an article that specifically warns against grouping all Asians together, because there is tons of diversity of opportunity just among the Asian population.
What I am citing for in that article is the notion that asians have a higher incidence of poverty than other groups. And no, the asian population in NYC is not nearly as diverse as the article makes it seem. Oot of the over 1 million asians in NYC, they have to mention Cambodians to make their point. There are maybe 100 Cambodians in NYC. The overwhelming majority of asians in NYC are east asian or suth asian.

Averages are averages and as long as I don't change the constituents in those averages, it shouldn't matter that there are some cambodians included in those averages. The Cambodian kid might be dragging down income a bit but if opprtunity=outcome then it should also drag down outcome to a similar degree.

I understand that income is not the alpha/omega of opportunity but what extra opportunity do the asians nin NYC have that the whites do not?

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It warns against exactly what you're doing -- claiming that Asians are doing just fine as some sort of special minority, when there are plenty of poor Asians in need who aren't getting any help. Then you switch from poor to middle class Asians when discussing Stuyvesant attendance, and you restrict your measure of performance to attendance at that high school. Rich kids don't have to go to Stuyvesant -- it attracts middle and lower income kids specifically because it's free and excellent.
I'm not the one that brought up stuyvesant except to say that this is how i came by the information that asians are poor in NYC.

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Anyway, if the OP doesn't come back and clarify, I'm out. I'm not really interested in this kind of argument by attrition.
So I'm confused. Do you think that equality of opportunity = equality of results or that equality of opportunity between two races can still lead to disparity in results due to things like culture?
  #102  
Old 12-20-2019, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Seems like you only want to talk about Asian Americans and New York schools. Thatís a microscopic portion of the issue of fair treatment of all Americans.
NYC has 10 million people. It is what I have statistics for. I can't use nationwide statistics because every time I try that, people will point out the income gap between whites and asians and try to pin it on that.

Well that is not true in NYC. Asians are poor there. And it's a fairly large sample size (with over 10 million people in NYC.

A lot of the race arguments of the left break down and sometimes disintegrate when you depart from the black-white scenario.

This is even more apparent when comparing the arguments and theories surrounding the hispanic-white racism model. Anti-black racism is distinguishable from anti-asian racism and its hard to get away from the distinguishing factors.

But when you compare hispanics to asians, there is not the same stark historical difference.
  #103  
Old 12-20-2019, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Do you have a cite for this specific claim? Namely, that the test scores for the poor black students who were bused went way, way up. In which cities did this happen, how much is "way, way", and did the parents of the poor students consider that the increase was worth it?

Regards,
Shodan
I think it's pretty well established that busing (done right) can close achievement gaps.

It also gets white people so riled up that they vote in racists. Even the most liberal groups of white folks get pretty riled up about school zoning. A while back, there was a school rezoning meeting in a fairly liberal gentrifying part of Brooklyn where a black parent had to stand up in the middle of the meeting and say something to the effect of "can we please have this conversation without saying that the black children are stupid or criminals?"

No matter how much you can cow those supposedly liberal white parents in a public forum, they get to vote in private. And those white parents did not find the arguments that seemed great in the abstract to be so good when it was their kids engaging in the rezoning.

So even if busing is an effective solution it is not a politically viable one.
  #104  
Old 12-20-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Throughout history, the wealthy "haves" always blamed the "have-nots" for their own plight, broadly speaking, using things like "culture" as excuses. This was always bullshit.
So I presented you with the experience of the least wealthy group in NYC achieving the best academic results. How do you explain this if not a difference in culture? Are asians just a shit ton smarter than everyone else? Or do they just work their asses off and make sacrifices that most americans consider borderline crazy. Anecdotally speaking, it's the latter.

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We're not suddenly in some unique situation in which finally the culture of the out-group is really the problem.
We have always lived in that world, the deficient cultures generally died.

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It's still the system, when we're talking about big groups of millions of people. Human beings are human beings, regardless of culture. Most humans just want decent, peaceful lives, no matter their culture. When huge swaths of a group doesn't have this chance, it's because the systems are failing them. Not because they're all failing themselves.
So then how are millions and millions of asians bucking your theory? If it's all rigged by whitey then how the hell are the asians doing as well as they are?
  #105  
Old 12-20-2019, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by naita View Post
Nice editing there.
In what way is stating your conclusion = taking you out of context. You seem to believe that equality of opportunity=equality of outcome

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But by all means, if you want to spend your Holiday building strawmen with Velocity, go right ahead.
You can cry straw man all you want. You're wrong. I am using your actual words in their actual intended meaning to say that you believe that equality of opportunity leads to equality of outcome. I never implied you thought this occurred at the individual level. This whole conversation has been about large groups. So maybe if you could stop whining and present an argument to support your position we could have a debate. or not.
  #106  
Old 12-20-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I don't have any problem with looking at "internal traits" when analyzing individual performance. But it's bullshit to do so when we're looking at groups of millions. When we're talking about groups of millions, especially when they're categorized by superficial characteristics like race or ethnicity, "internal traits" will average out, for characteristics that aren't superficial.
But they don't even out:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...s-study-finds/

Asian kids study harder that other kids. I would suggest that asian parents make more sacrifices for education and place more value on education than other parents. And this is largely a result of differences in culture.
  #107  
Old 12-20-2019, 12:52 PM
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One of the problem with this realm of debate is that "equality of results" is fairly easy to define - things like test scores, academic attainment, income, etc. - but "equality of opportunity" is so malleable and flexible a term that it can be shoehorned into anything someone wants it to be.
  #108  
Old 12-20-2019, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
This thread is not about black americans. Why are you so uncomfortable talking about asian americans?
I'm not uncomfortable talking about Asian Americans. I've just pointed out, repeatedly, that Asian Americans are a small part of the issue of race in America. But you try to steer every conversation about race to Asian Americans.
  #109  
Old 12-20-2019, 12:54 PM
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Do you think that Asians are well-represented in American power structures (business, government, academia, etc) generally? Because talking about school achievement doesnít really add up to that much.
  #110  
Old 12-20-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Do you think that Asians are well-represented in American power structures (business, government, academia, etc) generally? Because talking about school achievement doesnít really add up to that much.
No, but with government, for example, one reason is because Asian-Americans generally haven't been as interested in running for public office as other ethnic/racial groups. That isn't to say that anti-Asian discrimination isn't a factor, but by and large Asians have shown little interest in running. You can't win if you don't run.

With Andrew Yang and others of late, there is starting to be some change in this regard.
  #111  
Old 12-20-2019, 01:01 PM
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Do you think that Asians are well-represented in American power structures (business, government, academia, etc) generally? Because talking about school achievement doesnít really add up to that much.
Well, it adds up to money, which increases opportunity, which increases general happiness, which leads to a better overall well being, but yes, doesn't add up to much.
  #112  
Old 12-20-2019, 01:06 PM
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If you are suggesting that good test scores correlate with general happiness, Iíd like to see that study.
  #113  
Old 12-20-2019, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
One of the problem with this realm of debate is that "equality of results" is fairly easy to define - things like test scores, academic attainment, income, etc. - but "equality of opportunity" is so malleable and flexible a term that it can be shoehorned into anything someone wants it to be.
Welcome back!

So, how do you propose measuring equality of opportunity? Do you think that equality of results is, at least, a rough proxy? Do you have a better one?

Also, do you understand why saying that some people will just be more motivated or want to be artists or whatever is a straw man? No one is saying that all people will be equally successful. But, it seems like a reasonable goal to work towards the day when differences between people is not so easily explained by their race, income level, etc.
  #114  
Old 12-20-2019, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I'm not uncomfortable talking about Asian Americans. I've just pointed out, repeatedly, that Asian Americans are a small part of the issue of race in America. But you try to steer every conversation about race to Asian Americans.
I'm not trying to steer every conversation towards asian americans to focus on asian americans but I find that a lot of the arguments surrounding race fall apart when you introduce asian americans into the debate. Asian are the race that some people want you to forget and consequently asians get forgotten.

This doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist or does not have real world effects but it does mean that some of these absolute statements are probably untrue. Statements like "equality of opportunity would lead to equality of outcome" They make this claim because they want to pass laws and regulations that will equalize (or at least reduce disparity) differences in results on the basis that the difference in outcome MUST be because of differences in opportunity.
  #115  
Old 12-20-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
What outside factors?
That sounds an awful lot like, we didn't get the results we wanted with that policy Ö so RACISM!

Now of course you didn't come right out and say that but please specify what other factors do you fault for equality of outcomes not reached that don't involve culture or the person or groups choices.
It's racism. See? I'll say it.

Let's use a specific example; unemployment. Black Americans are more likely to be unemployed than white Americans. Why?

One possibility is that there's some inherent trait in black people that makes them choose not to work as much. They have a laziness gene or something like that. In my personal opinion, that's a racist view.

Another possibility is that black Americans are discriminated against in the job market; employers are less likely to hire a black job applicant than a white job applicant.

Or maybe it's background. Black people are more likely to have received a poor education because the school where they grew up received less money. Or black people are more likely to have a criminal record because the police are more likely to arrest them.

These are all outside factors. None of these were choices the black person made. They were choices that other people imposed on them.

It's not even necessarily true that people are choosing to discriminate against black people based on their race. The employer might be honest when he says he chooses applicants with no criminal record over applicants with criminal records. He's not being racist; it just happens that black people are more likely to have a criminal record and his race-neutral policy leads to the outcome of him hiring less black people.

And the cop will tell you that he doesn't choose who to arrest based on their race. He arrests the people who commit crimes. And the reason he arrests more black people is because they're more likely to be committing crimes.

By themselves, neither policy is a sign of racism. But connect them together and look at the pattern. Why do black people commit crimes? Because they need to earn money and they have a hard time getting a regular job. Why do black people have a hard time getting regular jobs? Because they have a criminal record.

And once the pattern is established it feeds into itself. If black adults are more likely to be committing crimes then black children are more likely to grow up knowing people who commit crimes - and therefore are more likely to have entry into a life of crime. And if black adults aren't working regular jobs, then black teenagers are less likely to be part of an employment network where somebody will say something like "Hey, there's an opening in the warehouse. Call up Phil and tell him I know you. I'll put in a good word for you."

Shodan pointed out that children raised by single mothers are more likely to have problems in their later lives. But boys who have problems in their lives are more likely to grow up and abandon their children. And girls who have problems in their lives are more likely to grow up and be abandoned.

Children who go to bad schools are going to have more difficulty graduating and having a good academic record. So they're more likely to be unemployed and poor. And unemployed poor people have less money. And schools in neighborhoods where there's less money are going to be underfunded and bad. The bad schools produce the poor people and the poor people produce the bad schools.

There are very few places where we can point to a single thing and say "This thing is wrong. Stop doing it." We solved most of those problems fifty years ago. Now we're looking at subtler problems. You see one problem and try to figure out what factors caused it. Then you try to figure out what caused those factors. Then you try to figure out what caused the things that caused the factors. And a lot of times you end up back where you started. The problems are part of a cycle.

Some people just shrug their shoulders and say "What can you do? The problem is too big to solve." I don't believe that. We've seen huge things like world wars and moon landings done successfully. I feel we can solve big problems if we're willing to do the work.

Other people will say "Why should I care? It's not my problem. I'm white (or I'm Asian-American)." There's the issue of morality but I'll put that aside. Instead I'll say it's in your self-interest to do something about other people's problems. When other people are poor or uneducated or criminals, you have to pay for their problems. Even if you choose to stop paying for any form of social assistance, you'll still be paying because you see an increase in crime and you'll need to pay more for police and prisons. Even if you're not personally poor or uneducated or a criminal, you benefit from living in a society where other people are also not poor or uneducated or criminals. It's in your self-interest to pay for programs that reduce poverty and bad education and crime, even if you just look at it from a financial point of view. Spending the money now to reduce the things that cause these problems will mean you don't have to spend the money in the future on the problems.
  #116  
Old 12-20-2019, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I'm not trying to steer every conversation towards asian americans to focus on asian americans but I find that a lot of the arguments surrounding race fall apart when you introduce asian americans into the debate. Asian are the race that some people want you to forget and consequently asians get forgotten.
If arguments about racism fall apart when you discuss Asian Americans, what does that prove? If I said "Look, Americans of Scottish descent don't experience racism" does that prove that racism isn't a problem? Of course not, it just proves that Scottish-Americans don't experience racism. That's great for Scottish-Americans. Now can we go back to talking about the people who aren't Scottish-Americans and who are experiencing problems?
  #117  
Old 12-20-2019, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
So I presented you with the experience of the least wealthy group in NYC achieving the best academic results. How do you explain this if not a difference in culture? Are asians just a shit ton smarter than everyone else? Or do they just work their asses off and make sacrifices that most americans consider borderline crazy. Anecdotally speaking, it's the latter.
You didn't provide any cites that they are "the least wealthy group" (and IIRC, you've said the same before in another thread and I showed you cites that proved this was incorrect, but I don't recall which thread). In any case, unless you're seriously arguing that Asians (or white people!) are the most mistreated "out group" in the country (or in NYC), then this wouldn't apply to my point anyway. My point is about how the groups with the worst outcomes are treated, not the groups with generally "good" outcomes.

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We have always lived in that world, the deficient cultures generally died.
So the Jews of Europe had a "deficient" culture? Native Americans? Native Australians? The Armenians in Turkey? The dozens of other groups that suffered genocides (or near-genocides)? That doesn't seem like remotely a serious argument. If this is seriously what you're arguing, then it's a horrendously bigoted and hateful argument.

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So then how are millions and millions of asians bucking your theory? If it's all rigged by whitey then how the hell are the asians doing as well as they are?
This is not my argument. I'm not even sure what this has to do with my argument.
  #118  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
But they don't even out:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...s-study-finds/

Asian kids study harder that other kids. I would suggest that asian parents make more sacrifices for education and place more value on education than other parents. And this is largely a result of differences in culture.
This still doesn't have anything to do with my argument.

There's no point to going on and on about this stuff when you just twist absolutely everything, no matter what it is, to "Asian culture is awesome!"

Maybe Asian culture really is the best in the world. Even if that's true, it's totally irrelevant to any of my arguments.
  #119  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:15 PM
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If you are suggesting that good test scores correlate with general happiness, Iíd like to see that study.
I think the claim breaks down to this:

Academic success leads to higher income (not stated)

Higher income leads to more opportunity

More opportunity leads to happiness

Happiness leads to higher overall well being.

Which one of these steps do you think is untrue?

I'm not sure all of these statements are true.

But what is true is that academic success is highly correlated with better incomes

Better incomes up to about the 80's percentile correlate with happiness

So to a point academic success correlates with happiness.
  #120  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:15 PM
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The "rigged by whitey" just shows how simplistic this issue is so often seen. These systems weren't "rigged by whitey" -- they were rigged by the wealthy and powerful. Not to protect and serve "whitey", but to protect and serve the wealthy and powerful. Most of them are white, but these systems hurt a lot more white people than they help. They only help the rich and powerful, and any other benefit seen by whites on the lower end due to discrimination is massively beat by the way they're exploited. Racism is a tool for these systems, since poor whites + poor blacks + poor Hispanics + poor other groups would be an absolute juggernaut and unstoppable political force, and the wealthy and powerful need these groups to oppose each other. And attacks on culture just help this system.

Black people are just human beings. They're really not different in any significant way from those of you who aren't black. The vast majority are peaceful, love their families, are very willing to work hard, and just want a decent chance at a comfortable life and good future for their families, just like any other group. That's black culture, at least the most important parts. There are negative aspects to inner city gang culture in Chicago, just like there are negative aspects to poor rural Appalachian culture, and Wall Street culture, and the million other sub-cultures around the country and the world. There's no simplifying this stuff for groups of millions; the vast majority are just regular, decent people who want decent lives and good futures for their kids.

Refusing to see this and insisting upon blaming millions of decent folks, many of whom are suffering despite having tried to do the right thing, just aids the system, which seeks to divide the poor and suffering so that the wealthy and powerful can continue to exploit as they see fit.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 12-20-2019 at 02:20 PM.
  #121  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:30 PM
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Nigerian immigrants do even better, academically, than Asians, statistically: https://www.chron.com/news/article/D...-S-1600808.php

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...el-in-the-u-s-

Is there some innate superiority in Nigerian culture? Should I bring up Nigerian culture as the superior culture that every group should seek to emulate, and the existence of this culture proves that all groups with less success simply don't have the strength of culture that those magnificent Nigerians have? Or is this some interesting but odd outlier statistic that doesn't really have much to do with culture, but rather the circumstances that these immigrants happen to face and experience?

Seems like the latter to me. Or maybe I can just bring up the supposed superiority of Nigerian culture to Asian culture any time culture finagles its way into these conversations.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 12-20-2019 at 02:31 PM.
  #122  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:44 PM
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So, how do you propose measuring equality of opportunity?
IMHO, equality of opportunity can be measured in holding everyone to the same criteria - i.e., everyone is invited to try out for the high school football team through physical tryouts that test people's 40-yard dash, weight lifting, skill in catching a football, etc. This is done without bias, nepotism or favoritism - in other words, it would not be equal opportunity for the coach to say, "Adam ran a 4.2 dash in the forty, but I'm going to keep him off the roster in favor of Michael, who ran a much slower 5.1, because Michael is the principal's son."

This equal opportunity doesn't mean an equal chance of success - some people are simply born slow, or maybe handicapped, or can't catch a ball with their hands to save their life - but the opportunity is offered to everyone.
  #123  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:48 PM
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tldr: this is a lot of straw and excuse making with little evidence for your claims

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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
It's racism. ...One possibility is that there's some inherent trait in black people that makes them choose not to work as much. They have a laziness gene or something like that. In my personal opinion, that's a racist view.
Is there anyone on this thread or any other that has made this claim? ANYONE? Or are you just setting up straw men so you can label anyone that disagrees with you as a racist?

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Another possibility is that black Americans are discriminated against in the job market; employers are less likely to hire a black job applicant than a white job applicant.
You have a cite for this discrimination?

Or maybe it's background. Black people are more likely to have received a poor education because the school where they grew up received less money. [/quote]

You realize that there are asians in those neighborhoods as well and while it makes a difference, they are not crippled by their education.

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Or black people are more likely to have a criminal record because the police are more likely to arrest them.
Cite? I know there is evidence that there is more police brutality against blacks but I haven't seen a study saying that the disparity in criminal records is the result of police bias.

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These are all outside factors. None of these were choices the black person made. They were choices that other people imposed on them.

It's not even necessarily true that people are choosing to discriminate against black people based on their race. The employer might be honest when he says he chooses applicants with no criminal record over applicants with criminal records. He's not being racist; it just happens that black people are more likely to have a criminal record and his race-neutral policy leads to the outcome of him hiring less black people.

And the cop will tell you that he doesn't choose who to arrest based on their race. He arrests the people who commit crimes. And the reason he arrests more black people is because they're more likely to be committing crimes.
So now the crimes are not the criminal's fault?

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By themselves, neither policy is a sign of racism. But connect them together and look at the pattern. Why do black people commit crimes? Because they need to earn money and they have a hard time getting a regular job. Why do black people have a hard time getting regular jobs? Because they have a criminal record.
This is not a chicken and egg problem. Blacks are not born with criminal records.

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And once the pattern is established it feeds into itself. If black adults are more likely to be committing crimes then black children are more likely to grow up knowing people who commit crimes - and therefore are more likely to have entry into a life of crime. And if black adults aren't working regular jobs, then black teenagers are less likely to be part of an employment network where somebody will say something like "Hey, there's an opening in the warehouse. Call up Phil and tell him I know you. I'll put in a good word for you."
So their environment practically forces them into a life of crime?

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Shodan pointed out that children raised by single mothers are more likely to have problems in their later lives. But boys who have problems in their lives are more likely to grow up and abandon their children. And girls who have problems in their lives are more likely to grow up and be abandoned.

Children who go to bad schools are going to have more difficulty graduating and having a good academic record. So they're more likely to be unemployed and poor. And unemployed poor people have less money. And schools in neighborhoods where there's less money are going to be underfunded and bad. The bad schools produce the poor people and the poor people produce the bad schools.

There are very few places where we can point to a single thing and say "This thing is wrong. Stop doing it." We solved most of those problems fifty years ago. Now we're looking at subtler problems. You see one problem and try to figure out what factors caused it. Then you try to figure out what caused those factors. Then you try to figure out what caused the things that caused the factors. And a lot of times you end up back where you started. The problems are part of a cycle.
Apparently you believe it's part of a cycle that blacks are powerless to break without the help of white folks. Boy it's a good thing there are so many white allies out there scolding other white people.

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Some people just shrug their shoulders and say "What can you do? The problem is too big to solve." I don't believe that. We've seen huge things like world wars and moon landings done successfully. I feel we can solve big problems if we're willing to do the work.
With the "we" in this case being white people once again.

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Other people will say "Why should I care? It's not my problem. I'm white (or I'm Asian-American)." There's the issue of morality but I'll put that aside. Instead I'll say it's in your self-interest to do something about other people's problems. When other people are poor or uneducated or criminals, you have to pay for their problems. Even if you choose to stop paying for any form of social assistance, you'll still be paying because you see an increase in crime and you'll need to pay more for police and prisons. Even if you're not personally poor or uneducated or a criminal, you benefit from living in a society where other people are also not poor or uneducated or criminals. It's in your self-interest to pay for programs that reduce poverty and bad education and crime, even if you just look at it from a financial point of view. Spending the money now to reduce the things that cause these problems will mean you don't have to spend the money in the future on the problems.
Asians understand racism in ways that white people generally do not. There are not a lot of asians in this country that thinks that racism doesn't exist. There are not a lot of asians in this country that don't agree that racism is worse for blacks than it is for asians.

So in your opinion is there anything that blacks can do to improve their own situation or is it really all in the hands of the white man?
  #124  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:49 PM
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There are negative aspects to inner city gang culture in Chicago, just like there are negative aspects to poor rural Appalachian culture, and Wall Street culture, and the million other sub-cultures around the country and the world.
We are on the same page, and I agree with your post. The only issue I have is with the use of "inner city" regarding gang culture in Chicago. I've lived here all of my life, and the areas with poverty and gang presence have nothing to do with the inner part of Chicago. The innermost part of the city would be downtown and the loop, where the board of trade is and the center of commerce. Englewood on the south side, with more gang activity, is nowhere near what could be considered the inner part of Chicago.

I feel like the term "inner city" itself is always inaccurate and is usually used by people that are, let's say, less sympathetic to the plight of those living in those impoverished areas. I try to not use the term for that reason.

Aside from that, great post.
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  #125  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:50 PM
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If arguments about racism fall apart when you discuss Asian Americans, what does that prove?
it proves that your arguments about racism are flawed.

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If I said "Look, Americans of Scottish descent don't experience racism" does that prove that racism isn't a problem? Of course not, it just proves that Scottish-Americans don't experience racism. That's great for Scottish-Americans. Now can we go back to talking about the people who aren't Scottish-Americans and who are experiencing problems?
Are you saying that asians don't experience racism or haven't had a history of racism in this country? Do you really think that the asian experience with racism in this country has been anything like the scottich experience?
  #126  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:52 PM
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We are on the same page, and I agree with your post. The only issue I have is with the use of "inner city" regarding gang culture in Chicago. I've lived here all of my life, and the areas with poverty and gang presence have nothing to do with the inner part of Chicago. The innermost part of the city would be downtown and the loop, where the board of trade is and the center of commerce. Englewood on the south side, with more gang activity, is nowhere near what could be considered the inner part of Chicago.



I feel like the term "inner city" itself is always inaccurate and is usually used by people that are, let's say, less sympathetic to the plight of those living in those impoverished areas. I try to not use the term for that reason.



Aside from that, great post.
Fair enough, thanks for the education!
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  #127  
Old 12-20-2019, 02:56 PM
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IMHO, equality of opportunity can be measured in holding everyone to the same criteria - i.e., everyone is invited to try out for the high school football team through physical tryouts that test people's 40-yard dash, weight lifting, skill in catching a football, etc. This is done without bias, nepotism or favoritism - in other words, it would not be equal opportunity for the coach to say, "Adam ran a 4.2 dash in the forty, but I'm going to keep him off the roster in favor of Michael, who ran a much slower 5.1, because Michael is the principal's son."

This equal opportunity doesn't mean an equal chance of success - some people are simply born slow, or maybe handicapped, or can't catch a ball with their hands to save their life - but the opportunity is offered to everyone.
I think it's silly to concentrate on sports here, but you're already assuming away any bias on the part of the coaches, and sports is not a totally objective endeavor anyway -- do you think motivation and coachability have nothing to do with success in sports?

In any case, by the time kids are trying out for high school sports, there have already been huge differences in opportunity -- some kids don't have enough food, or poor medical care, etc. Kids with non-English-speaking parents or parents who work two jobs may not even know about the tryouts. Kids who care for their younger siblings can't take the time to tryout. If a kid has to work after school to support her disabled mother and can't try out for high school fencing, does that kid have an equal opportunity?

I totally agree with you that equal opportunity doesn't mean equal chance of success, but I can't think of a better way to measure it, and your way doesn't even work for the limited world of sports, let alone broader societal measures.

So, I ask again -- what's a better proxy for measuring equality of opportunity than actual real-world results? Again, concentrating on measures across groups, not within the group.
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Old 12-20-2019, 03:00 PM
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Nigerian immigrants do even better, academically, than Asians, statistically: https://www.chron.com/news/article/D...-S-1600808.php

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...el-in-the-u-s-

Is there some innate superiority in Nigerian culture? Should I bring up Nigerian culture as the superior culture that every group should seek to emulate, and the existence of this culture proves that all groups with less success simply don't have the strength of culture that those magnificent Nigerians have? Or is this some interesting but odd outlier statistic that doesn't really have much to do with culture, but rather the circumstances that these immigrants happen to face and experience?

Seems like the latter to me. Or maybe I can just bring up the supposed superiority of Nigerian culture to Asian culture any time culture finagles its way into these conversations.
Well according to your first cite, it could definitely be argued that Nigerian culture is superior for achieving academic performance - from the article:
Quote:
The reasons Nigerians have more post-graduate degrees than any other racial or ethnic group are largely due to Nigerian society's emphasis on mandatory and free education.
Quote:
"The typical saying in a Nigerian household is that the best inheritance that a parent can give you is not jewelry or cash or material things, it is a good education," he said. "It is expected."
Part of the circumstances that these immigrants happen to face and experience is the cultural milieu that they grew up in, and I absolutely believe that Nigerian society's value of scholarship helps their emigrants succeed.

Now obviously, I do not believe "Nigerian culture = values scholarship". But the trait of valuing scholarship appears to be more widespread within Nigerian culture than other cultures, and i think this manifests in the proportion of skilled workers coming from Nigeria vs. other countries. Do you think otherwise?
  #129  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:00 PM
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  #130  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:00 PM
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You didn't provide any cites that they are "the least wealthy group" (and IIRC, you've said the same before in another thread and I showed you cites that proved this was incorrect, but I don't recall which thread). In any case, unless you're seriously arguing that Asians (or white people!) are the most mistreated "out group" in the country (or in NYC), then this wouldn't apply to my point anyway. My point is about how the groups with the worst outcomes are treated, not the groups with generally "good" outcomes.
Of course I provided cites. Someone even came along to prove that there was one year when asians were only the 2nd poorest group in NYC in 2015 so they weren't ALWAYS the poorest group.

Your point is that the REASON for those bad outcomes is a lack of opportunity because opportunity=outcome and i am saying that it could be something else like culture and i support that notion with evidence that opportunity/=outcome in some cases. That culture might play a rather large role in outcomes.

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So the Jews of Europe had a "deficient" culture? Native Americans? Native Australians? The Armenians in Turkey? The dozens of other groups that suffered genocides (or near-genocides)? That doesn't seem like remotely a serious argument. If this is seriously what you're arguing, then it's a horrendously bigoted and hateful argument.
So you think we are committing genocide on blacks?

Do you have a cite for this because it hasn't been reported on by any of the major news outlets.

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This is not my argument. I'm not even sure what this has to do with my argument.
I am asking how the system is being rigged against blacks and hispanics and not against asians? because you keep blaming everything on racism but for some reason these omnipotent racists seem to not only be taking it easy on the asians, they are elevating asians above whites in some ways. These racists are bad at being racist.
  #131  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:03 PM
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IMHO, equality of opportunity can be measured in holding everyone to the same criteria - i.e., everyone is invited to try out for the high school football team through physical tryouts that test people's 40-yard dash, weight lifting, skill in catching a football, etc. This is done without bias, nepotism or favoritism - in other words, it would not be equal opportunity for the coach to say, "Adam ran a 4.2 dash in the forty, but I'm going to keep him off the roster in favor of Michael, who ran a much slower 5.1, because Michael is the principal's son."



This equal opportunity doesn't mean an equal chance of success - some people are simply born slow, or maybe handicapped, or can't catch a ball with their hands to save their life - but the opportunity is offered to everyone.
This could only be posted by someone who understands very little about sports beyond perhaps a video game.
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Old 12-20-2019, 03:05 PM
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And we're now back into a loop of /r/goldenrace posts.
  #133  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:10 PM
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It's racism. See? I'll say it.

Let's use a specific example; unemployment. Black Americans are more likely to be unemployed than white Americans. Why?

One possibility is that there's some inherent trait in black people that makes them choose not to work as much. They have a laziness gene or something like that. In my personal opinion, that's a racist view.

Another possibility is that black Americans are discriminated against in the job market; employers are less likely to hire a black job applicant than a white job applicant.

Or maybe it's background. Black people are more likely to have received a poor education because the school where they grew up received less money. Or black people are more likely to have a criminal record because the police are more likely to arrest them.

These are all outside factors. None of these were choices the black person made. They were choices that other people imposed on them.

It's not even necessarily true that people are choosing to discriminate against black people based on their race. The employer might be honest when he says he chooses applicants with no criminal record over applicants with criminal records. He's not being racist; it just happens that black people are more likely to have a criminal record and his race-neutral policy leads to the outcome of him hiring less black people.

And the cop will tell you that he doesn't choose who to arrest based on their race. He arrests the people who commit crimes. And the reason he arrests more black people is because they're more likely to be committing crimes.

By themselves, neither policy is a sign of racism. But connect them together and look at the pattern. Why do black people commit crimes? Because they need to earn money and they have a hard time getting a regular job. Why do black people have a hard time getting regular jobs? Because they have a criminal record.

And once the pattern is established it feeds into itself. If black adults are more likely to be committing crimes then black children are more likely to grow up knowing people who commit crimes - and therefore are more likely to have entry into a life of crime. And if black adults aren't working regular jobs, then black teenagers are less likely to be part of an employment network where somebody will say something like "Hey, there's an opening in the warehouse. Call up Phil and tell him I know you. I'll put in a good word for you."

Shodan pointed out that children raised by single mothers are more likely to have problems in their later lives. But boys who have problems in their lives are more likely to grow up and abandon their children. And girls who have problems in their lives are more likely to grow up and be abandoned.

Children who go to bad schools are going to have more difficulty graduating and having a good academic record. So they're more likely to be unemployed and poor. And unemployed poor people have less money. And schools in neighborhoods where there's less money are going to be underfunded and bad. The bad schools produce the poor people and the poor people produce the bad schools.

There are very few places where we can point to a single thing and say "This thing is wrong. Stop doing it." We solved most of those problems fifty years ago. Now we're looking at subtler problems. You see one problem and try to figure out what factors caused it. Then you try to figure out what caused those factors. Then you try to figure out what caused the things that caused the factors. And a lot of times you end up back where you started. The problems are part of a cycle.

Some people just shrug their shoulders and say "What can you do? The problem is too big to solve." I don't believe that. We've seen huge things like world wars and moon landings done successfully. I feel we can solve big problems if we're willing to do the work.

Other people will say "Why should I care? It's not my problem. I'm white (or I'm Asian-American)." There's the issue of morality but I'll put that aside. Instead I'll say it's in your self-interest to do something about other people's problems. When other people are poor or uneducated or criminals, you have to pay for their problems. Even if you choose to stop paying for any form of social assistance, you'll still be paying because you see an increase in crime and you'll need to pay more for police and prisons. Even if you're not personally poor or uneducated or a criminal, you benefit from living in a society where other people are also not poor or uneducated or criminals. It's in your self-interest to pay for programs that reduce poverty and bad education and crime, even if you just look at it from a financial point of view. Spending the money now to reduce the things that cause these problems will mean you don't have to spend the money in the future on the problems.
Yes, you use it exactly how the Democrats for the last few decades have used it, Racism is the cause of every bad thing by any minority (well, except Asians)

I don't find that to be the case. With AA, they have more opportunities than they had in the past, and in some cases a racist advantage over the same and sometimes more qualified 'other'

But you know what, it's an excuse. An excuse to blame everything on racism because its all the rage currently.

It's wrong. (granted, maybe not ALL wrong always but a good chunk of the time)
  #134  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:12 PM
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Your point is that the REASON for those bad outcomes is a lack of opportunity because opportunity=outcome and i am saying that it could be something else like culture and i support that notion with evidence that opportunity/=outcome in some cases. That culture might play a rather large role in outcomes.


I don't think culture is necessarily separate from opportunity. Black people live in American culture. How they are treated is part of their opportunity. And you've presented no evidence that black culture doesn't value education, or promotes crime or laziness, etc. You're just assuming that lesser outcomes somehow indicate something about culture.

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So you think we are committing genocide on blacks?



Do you have a cite for this because it hasn't been reported on by any of the major news outlets.
You said deficient cultures die out. Are you saying that black culture isn't deficient? Or that it won't die out? I'm saying it's ridiculous to blame culture for groups dying out, and showing examples for groups that quite obviously didn't die out due to a deficient culture.

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I am asking how the system is being rigged against blacks and hispanics and not against asians? because you keep blaming everything on racism but for some reason these omnipotent racists seem to not only be taking it easy on the asians, they are elevating asians above whites in some ways. These racists are bad at being racist.
The system doesn't care about racism - it doesn't care about white or black or Asian people. It cares about protecting and serving the wealthy and powerful. Racism is a very useful tool for that, but not all types of racism. Asians are relative newcomers in any significant numbers to most of the country - perhaps the system hasn't found them to be a threat. Perhaps their numbers are too small to worry the wealthy and powerful, or perhaps the wealthy and powerful would prefer to recruit Asians rather than set others against them. I don't know. I just know that we're not special. You're not special. We're all just human, and there's nothing special about the present. The same rules and trends through history still apply. These little conflicts, including nonsense about supposedly toxic cultures of millions of Americans, are just tools for the rich and powerful. The real enemy of opportunity for all is the system.
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  #135  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:13 PM
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This still doesn't have anything to do with my argument.

There's no point to going on and on about this stuff when you just twist absolutely everything, no matter what it is, to "Asian culture is awesome!"

Maybe Asian culture really is the best in the world. Even if that's true, it's totally irrelevant to any of my arguments.
Your argument was that there are no significant differences between large groups that would explain the differences but culture is a significant difference between races that can explain some of the differences between groups.

I'm not saying that asian culture is awesome and trying to rub it in people's faces about how awesome asian culture is. I am saying that culture can be a distinguishing factor that can affect outcomes.
  #136  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:15 PM
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So we're back to "black people suck", but it's not genetic -- it's that black people are predisposed to generate a shitty culture that produces people that suck.
  #137  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:15 PM
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The "rigged by whitey" just shows how simplistic this issue is so often seen. These systems weren't "rigged by whitey" -- they were rigged by the wealthy and powerful. Not to protect and serve "whitey", but to protect and serve the wealthy and powerful. Most of them are white, but these systems hurt a lot more white people than they help. They only help the rich and powerful, and any other benefit seen by whites on the lower end due to discrimination is massively beat by the way they're exploited. Racism is a tool for these systems, since poor whites + poor blacks + poor Hispanics + poor other groups would be an absolute juggernaut and unstoppable political force, and the wealthy and powerful need these groups to oppose each other. And attacks on culture just help this system.

Black people are just human beings. They're really not different in any significant way from those of you who aren't black. The vast majority are peaceful, love their families, are very willing to work hard, and just want a decent chance at a comfortable life and good future for their families, just like any other group. That's black culture, at least the most important parts. There are negative aspects to inner city gang culture in Chicago, just like there are negative aspects to poor rural Appalachian culture, and Wall Street culture, and the million other sub-cultures around the country and the world. There's no simplifying this stuff for groups of millions; the vast majority are just regular, decent people who want decent lives and good futures for their kids.

Refusing to see this and insisting upon blaming millions of decent folks, many of whom are suffering despite having tried to do the right thing, just aids the system, which seeks to divide the poor and suffering so that the wealthy and powerful can continue to exploit as they see fit.
Noone is saying blacks are bad people. but do you think there is anything blacks can do to help themselves or do they have to wait for someone else to help them?
  #138  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:18 PM
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Your argument was that there are no significant differences between large groups that would explain the differences but culture is a significant difference between races that can explain some of the differences between groups.



I'm not saying that asian culture is awesome and trying to rub it in people's faces about how awesome asian culture is. I am saying that culture can be a distinguishing factor that can affect outcomes.
Maybe, but when the system is so massively tilted and unfair, I see no possibility of evaluating the effects of different cultures on achievement.
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  #139  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:19 PM
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Noone is saying blacks are bad people. but do you think there is anything blacks can do to help themselves or do they have to wait for someone else to help them?
There's plenty that individuals can do to make their lives better, regardless of race, in most circumstances. When it comes to big group outcomes, it's the system that is to blame, not the individual decisions of millions, most of whom are decent people just trying to do the best they can.
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  #140  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:20 PM
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I'm not sure all of these statements are true.
I agree.

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So to a point academic success correlates with happiness.
Cite?
  #141  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:26 PM
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Nigerian immigrants do even better, academically, than Asians, statistically: https://www.chron.com/news/article/D...-S-1600808.php

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...el-in-the-u-s-
Yes, and look at how hard they work. Look at how much emphasis they put on education. Look at the sacrifices they make for their children's education. If holding up asians is going to be distasteful to black communities, then lets use nigerians as the example of how culture can make a difference.

I only use asians because even with as little statstical data we collect about asians, we collect even less about nigerians. But by all means, lets infuse every black community with nigerians culture.

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Is there some innate superiority in Nigerian culture?
Yes, I believe so.

Quote:
Should I bring up Nigerian culture as the superior culture that every group should seek to emulate, and the existence of this culture proves that all groups with less success simply don't have the strength of culture that those magnificent Nigerians have?
Yes, bring it up. There are elements of nigerian culture that many communities including 3rd generation asians would benefit from adopting.

Quote:
Or is this some interesting but odd outlier statistic that doesn't really have much to do with culture, but rather the circumstances that these immigrants happen to face and experience?
I think we can learn from it. Unless you tell me that Nigerians are a self selected group like South Asians who are primarily here on h1B visas or something, their culture is probably a big part of their success.

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Seems like the latter to me. Or maybe I can just bring up the supposed superiority of Nigerian culture to Asian culture any time culture finagles its way into these conversations.
Well, if talking about asians upsets you because it makes you feel like its a bit of racism, then by all means lets replace asian culture with nigerian culture and talk about how blacks might improve their lot by emulating some aspects of nigerian culture.

I'm not familiar with nigerian culture but if their parents make sacrifices like caribbean parents do. Work multiple jobs and drive shitty cars so their kids can have more educational opportunities. Then by all means lets hold up the nigerians as the example for blacks to follow.
  #142  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:28 PM
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I'll amend my above statement to point out that the system does harm Asians in many ways, just perhaps not academically. It's part of our broader system that Asians are funneled into certain career paths, and away from others. And having certain gender roles, and how they are portrayed in the media. And probably a lot more unfair stuff that Asians are familiar with but I'm not.
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  #143  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:29 PM
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IMHO, equality of opportunity can be measured in holding everyone to the same criteria - i.e., everyone is invited to try out for the high school football team through physical tryouts that test people's 40-yard dash, weight lifting, skill in catching a football, etc. This is done without bias, nepotism or favoritism - in other words, it would not be equal opportunity for the coach to say, "Adam ran a 4.2 dash in the forty, but I'm going to keep him off the roster in favor of Michael, who ran a much slower 5.1, because Michael is the principal's son."

This equal opportunity doesn't mean an equal chance of success - some people are simply born slow, or maybe handicapped, or can't catch a ball with their hands to save their life - but the opportunity is offered to everyone.
I think the problem with your example is that you are talking about innate ability and I don't think its intentional but that makes it seem like there are innate differences that no amount of effort or preference will overcome.
  #144  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:29 PM
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Yes, and look at how hard they work. Look at how much emphasis they put on education. Look at the sacrifices they make for their children's education. If holding up asians is going to be distasteful to black communities, then lets use nigerians as the example of how culture can make a difference.



I only use asians because even with as little statstical data we collect about asians, we collect even less about nigerians. But by all means, lets infuse every black community with nigerians culture.







Yes, I believe so.







Yes, bring it up. There are elements of nigerian culture that many communities including 3rd generation asians would benefit from adopting.







I think we can learn from it. Unless you tell me that Nigerians are a self selected group like South Asians who are primarily here on h1B visas or something, their culture is probably a big part of their success.







Well, if talking about asians upsets you because it makes you feel like its a bit of racism, then by all means lets replace asian culture with nigerian culture and talk about how blacks might improve their lot by emulating some aspects of nigerian culture.



I'm not familiar with nigerian culture but if their parents make sacrifices like caribbean parents do. Work multiple jobs and drive shitty cars so their kids can have more educational opportunities. Then by all means lets hold up the nigerians as the example for blacks to follow.
Of course they're self selected! The vast majority of immigrants are self selected. The best and brightest, especially the further and harder it is to get here. That's why immigration is so awesome and we should encourage it!
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Old 12-20-2019, 03:35 PM
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It's no coincidence at all that the two groups in the US at the bottom of most statistical indicators (black Americans and native Americans) are the only two groups who had no choice at all about coming to America.
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  #146  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:43 PM
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I don't think culture is necessarily separate from opportunity. Black people live in American culture. How they are treated is part of their opportunity. And you've presented no evidence that black culture doesn't value education, or promotes crime or laziness, etc. You're just assuming that lesser outcomes somehow indicate something about culture.
Everyone claims to value education. But they don't, not the same way. Nigerians value education far more than others. They make more sacrifices for education. They focus on education over other aspects of their children's lives and this has resulted in a lot of academic success for Nigerians. There is plenty of racism and the legacy of racism weighs heavily on the black community but if they could assimilate some of the monomaniacal focus that the nigerians have on education, their politicians would respond with better schools and libraries. Their children will have better academic results and earn higher incomes. Their grandchildren will be raised in homes free from want or lack of opportunity.

Do you think blacks value education as much as the nigerians do?

Quote:
You said deficient cultures die out. Are you saying that black culture isn't deficient? Or that it won't die out? I'm saying it's ridiculous to blame culture for groups dying out, and showing examples for groups that quite obviously didn't die out due to a deficient culture.
it's not the only reason cultures die out. The Spartans lost the Peloponnesian War. Carthage lost their war. etc. But over time the good elements of cultures get adopted and the bad elements fade away.

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The system doesn't care about racism - it doesn't care about white or black or Asian people. It cares about protecting and serving the wealthy and powerful. Racism is a very useful tool for that, but not all types of racism. Asians are relative newcomers in any significant numbers to most of the country - perhaps the system hasn't found them to be a threat. Perhaps their numbers are too small to worry the wealthy and powerful, or perhaps the wealthy and powerful would prefer to recruit Asians rather than set others against them. I don't know. I just know that we're not special. You're not special. We're all just human, and there's nothing special about the present. The same rules and trends through history still apply. These little conflicts, including nonsense about supposedly toxic cultures of millions of Americans, are just tools for the rich and powerful. The real enemy of opportunity for all is the system.
That's a lot of bilderberger level conspiracy woo.

Hard work and sacrifice makes a difference and some cultures are more ready to invest that hard work and make those sacrifices than others.
  #147  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I think the problem with your example is that you are talking about innate ability and I don't think its intentional but that makes it seem like there are innate differences that no amount of effort or preference will overcome.
Fair enough, sports may not be the best choice.

Culturally, though, one example may be how an overwhelming number of spelling bees are being won by Indian-American contestants of late. It's not that other ethnic/racial groups aren't capable of competing, but clearly there is some cultural/societal factor at work - they value competing in such competitions.
  #148  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:44 PM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Chingon View Post
So we're back to "black people suck", but it's not genetic -- it's that black people are predisposed to generate a shitty culture that produces people that suck.
Yes. of course. That's what I said.

Get back to me when you have something to say, an argument to make some insight to share, etc. the bars not that high but there is a bar.
  #149  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Maybe, but when the system is so massively tilted and unfair, I see no possibility of evaluating the effects of different cultures on achievement.
None are so blinds as those who will not see.
  #150  
Old 12-20-2019, 03:47 PM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
I agree.



Cite?
Umm
academic success=higher income
higher income leads to more happiness (to a point)

which of those controversial points would you like a cite for?
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