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  #151  
Old 12-20-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Everyone claims to value education. But they don't, not the same way. Nigerians value education far more than others. They make more sacrifices for education. They focus on education over other aspects of their children's lives and this has resulted in a lot of academic success for Nigerians. There is plenty of racism and the legacy of racism weighs heavily on the black community but if they could assimilate some of the monomaniacal focus that the nigerians have on education, their politicians would respond with better schools and libraries. Their children will have better academic results and earn higher incomes. Their grandchildren will be raised in homes free from want or lack of opportunity.



Do you think blacks value education as much as the nigerians do?
Absolutely. I've seen no reason to believe otherwise, especially when these two groups reach consist of tens of millions of people. And, quite obviously, Nigerians are considered "black" in America.


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That's a lot of bilderberger level conspiracy woo.



Hard work and sacrifice makes a difference and some cultures are more ready to invest that hard work and make those sacrifices than others.
You're not actually arguing against anything I said here. There's nothing special about you, or me, or your culture, or mine, or the present, or America. We're all just human beings.
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  #152  
Old 12-20-2019, 04:08 PM
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None are so blinds as those who will not see.
Another argument-free post.
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  #153  
Old 12-20-2019, 04:24 PM
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Fair enough, sports may not be the best choice.

Culturally, though, one example may be how an overwhelming number of spelling bees are being won by Indian-American contestants of late. It's not that other ethnic/racial groups aren't capable of competing, but clearly there is some cultural/societal factor at work - they value competing in such competitions.
But the vast majority of Indian Americans don't value spelling bees. So looking at the success of Indian Americans in spelling bees and extrapolating that this huge ethnic group has this value is wholly inaccurate.
  #154  
Old 12-20-2019, 04:26 PM
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iiandyiiii - thanks for the cites.

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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
To play a bit of a devil's advocate, I think the idea is that if you had equality of opportunity then you wouldn't have such an elevated illegitimate birth rate in the second group so everything should sort itself out unless one is contending that the second group has such an innate characteristic as to have these increased birth rates regardless of opportunity.
If that were the case - that there was something inherent about the group - the illegitimate birth rate wouldn't vary as equality of opportunity varied. Which is very much not the case - the illegitimacy rate used to be much lower among African Americans, but increased markedly at the same time as Jim Crow and overt discrimination was reduced or eliminated. Cite.

Black illegitimacy rates were always higher than those of whites, but in 1940 it was less than 20%. Currently it is over 70%. I don't think it can be credibly argued that black people have the same or less equality of opportunity in 2019 than they did in 1940.

Regards,
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  #155  
Old 12-20-2019, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Umm
academic success=higher income
higher income leads to more happiness (to a point)

which of those controversial points would you like a cite for?
As I said before, academic success correlates with happiness. ETA, I should be clear that I’m questioning whether academic success in high school/college has much to do with happiness later in life.

Last edited by Ravenman; 12-20-2019 at 04:34 PM.
  #156  
Old 12-20-2019, 04:43 PM
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But the vast majority of Indian Americans don't value spelling bees. So looking at the success of Indian Americans in spelling bees and extrapolating that this huge ethnic group has this value is wholly inaccurate.
I didn't mean that all Indian-Americans have this value; you'll never get all of people in on something. But clearly there is something that makes the overwhelming majority of spelling-bee champions Indian-Americans of late. It's not higher "English IQ" - indeed, you'd logically expect Anglo-Americans to be champs at this. It's not financial advantage - they aren't particularly moneyed, nor does money make much difference in spelling. It's not because the Bee rules are skewed in their favor.

Whatever it is, it's not lack of equal opportunity for the other racial/ethnic groups.
  #157  
Old 12-20-2019, 04:44 PM
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IMHO, equality of opportunity can be measured in holding everyone to the same criteria - i.e., everyone is invited to try out for the high school football team through physical tryouts that test people's 40-yard dash, weight lifting, skill in catching a football, etc. This is done without bias, nepotism or favoritism - in other words, it would not be equal opportunity for the coach to say, "Adam ran a 4.2 dash in the forty, but I'm going to keep him off the roster in favor of Michael, who ran a much slower 5.1, because Michael is the principal's son."

This equal opportunity doesn't mean an equal chance of success - some people are simply born slow, or maybe handicapped, or can't catch a ball with their hands to save their life - but the opportunity is offered to everyone.
But even that is not equal opportunity. One kid may be well fed, and the other skin and bones because his family has little money and they only have 2 meals a day. One kid may have had a series of childhood illnesses because his family can't afford healthcare. The other kid had all his shots. You think the hungry kid has an equal opportunity at beating a healthy well fed kid?

In this situation you cannot compare the race results in any meaningful way. In some ways society is like your 40 yd dash, except everyone has the same finish line, but some have to run over a track with potholes and angled uphill. Think the kid who had the straight flat course is somehow a better achiever?

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  #158  
Old 12-20-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
iiandyiiii - thanks for the cites.



If that were the case - that there was something inherent about the group - the illegitimate birth rate wouldn't vary as equality of opportunity varied. Which is very much not the case - the illegitimacy rate used to be much lower among African Americans, but increased markedly at the same time as Jim Crow and overt discrimination was reduced or eliminated. Cite.



Black illegitimacy rates were always higher than those of whites, but in 1940 it was less than 20%. Currently it is over 70%. I don't think it can be credibly argued that black people have the same or less equality of opportunity in 2019 than they did in 1940.



Regards,

Shodan
I don't have the cites handy (but I've used them before, so I can find them again), but per capita, significantly fewer unmarried black women are giving birth, year by year, over the past couple of decades. Fewer black children are born to single mothers every year. So whatever is happening, due to culture or broader society or whatever, it's leading to fewer unmarried births from black women. So that days would actually be consistent with that hypothesis.
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  #159  
Old 12-20-2019, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I don't have the cites handy (but I've used them before, so I can find them again), but per capita, significantly fewer unmarried black women are giving birth, year by year, over the past couple of decades. Fewer black children are born to single mothers every year. So whatever is happening, due to culture or broader society or whatever, it's leading to fewer unmarried births from black women. So that days would actually be consistent with that hypothesis.
That last sentence should read "that data would..." and I'm referring to the hypothesis that discrimination leads to increased illegitimate births.
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  #160  
Old 12-20-2019, 10:13 PM
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culture is a significant difference between races
Culture is not a difference, significant or otherwise, between "races".

Every group identified as a "race" contains multiple cultures.

Most cultures contain people of multiple "races".

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Do you think blacks value education as much as the nigerians do?.
Nigerian cultures (there are more than one) ARE black cultures.

Your question translates to 'do you think black people value education as much as black people do?' It's nonsense.
  #161  
Old 12-21-2019, 10:21 AM
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Culture is not a difference, significant or otherwise, between "races".



Every group identified as a "race" contains multiple cultures.



Most cultures contain people of multiple "races".







Nigerian cultures (there are more than one) ARE black cultures.



Your question translates to 'do you think black people value education as much as black people do?' It's nonsense.
You have to remember, like many people he takes that old Chris Rock routine to heart.
  #162  
Old 12-21-2019, 10:53 AM
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In what way is stating your conclusion = taking you out of context. You seem to believe that equality of opportunity=equality of outcome.
Velocity's OP is a clear strawman, taking a minority view as representing all liberals, and then misrepresenting/misunderstanding that view as well. Even though I don't agree with the outlier version of the viewpoint, I thought it worth explaining where Velocity was going wrong in his analysis. That's why I wrote "Someone holding the position that ..."

If I wrote "A racist may think inequality of outcome necessarily implies an inequality of ability", would you quote only the italicized part and believe I was flip-flopping?

You pared down a text where I specifically presented arguments for "someone's" views, and stated they were my beliefs. How you cannot see that is removing context is beyond me.
  #163  
Old 12-21-2019, 11:42 AM
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There's plenty that individuals can do to make their lives better, regardless of race, in most circumstances. When it comes to big group outcomes, it's the system that is to blame, not the individual decisions of millions, most of whom are decent people just trying to do the best they can.
So what is it about the system that favors nigerians but oppresses most other blacks so much?
  #164  
Old 12-21-2019, 11:59 AM
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So what is it about the system that favors nigerians but oppresses most other blacks so much?
There could be many possibilities, and it would be hard to know with any certainty without further focused study. It could be some innate Nigerian cultural superiority that somehow only expresses itself in Nigerian immigrants to the US; it could be that we're getting the best and brightest of Nigeria (which seems by far the most likely to me, and could also be at least part of the explanation for statistical high achievement among Asian Americans); it could be some complex interaction of certain types of anti-black discrimination that somehow "backfire" and work the other way with certain black immigrants; it could be something I haven't thought of.
  #165  
Old 12-21-2019, 01:44 PM
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I'll amend my above statement to point out that the system does harm Asians in many ways, just perhaps not academically. It's part of our broader system that Asians are funneled into certain career paths, and away from others.
"Asians were funneled into certain career paths and away from others"

By who?

Did white racists decide that asians should become well paid engineers, doctors, lawyers accountant and pharmacists?

Or are you saying their parents funneled them into those career paths because parents doing it seems like culture, yet again.

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And having certain gender roles, and how they are portrayed in the media.
The media thing has been changing slowly. The export of k-pop and k-drama and anime and stuff like that has changed the conversation. The economic power of asians here and abroad is changing how media views asians. There are real economic consequences to overt media racism against asians so you don't see two

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And probably a lot more unfair stuff that Asians are familiar with but I'm not.
Why do you think there is such a disparity in how much people understand antui-black racism compared to anti-asian racism?

Last edited by Damuri Ajashi; 12-21-2019 at 01:45 PM.
  #166  
Old 12-21-2019, 01:46 PM
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Maybe, but when the system is so massively tilted and unfair, I see no possibility of evaluating the effects of different cultures on achievement.
The system is clearly tilted and unfair but not massively so (things are significantly improved from when I was a kid, so much so that there is no measurable race based impediment to college attendance or graduation, no measurable race baswed impediment to housing or borrowing, no impediment to seeking the highest elected office in the land). Many of the problems plaguing the black community today is the result of poverty (which is a legacy of PAST racism) and culture (which is at least in part also the legacy of past racism (and conservatives would say Democratic welfare policies encouraging single parent households).

Neither of these are permanent or innate. The problems caused by present day racism are real but are not massive (IMO) and they do not eclipse the role that poverty and culture play (IMO). Racism might be why blacks are poor but it is not what keeps them poor.

Wealth has inertia and unless you fight that inertia, poor children become poor adults. The black community is in a hole but there are ropes to climb out of that hole. Plenty of white folks want to see blacks come out of that hole but white folks are not going to jump down into that hole to push blacks up even though they're the ones that threw blacks in the hole in the first place. They have good intentions but their good intentions tend to evaporate when they have to make real and personal sacrifices (see brooklyn school redistricting meetings).

There are elements of their culture that could be modified to help them climb out of that hole. Presumably Nigerians are subject to the same present day racism that other blacks in this country are and yet they are thriving at least in some part due to their culture. If the black community could somehow modify their culture to mimic Nigerian culture, it might make a difference.

Sure changing culture is difficult but we've been trying to change the hearts and minds of racists for a pretty long time, maybe we can try something else?

Last edited by Damuri Ajashi; 12-21-2019 at 01:49 PM.
  #167  
Old 12-21-2019, 01:54 PM
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It's no coincidence at all that the two groups in the US at the bottom of most statistical indicators (black Americans and native Americans) are the only two groups who had no choice at all about coming to America.
So, I will bring up the Vietnamese refugees yet again. It is difficult to argue that vietnamese refugees are not a cross section of the vietnamese population.

What makes the black and native american race discussion different than say the hispanics is the genocide and centuries of slavery.
  #168  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
"Asians were funneled into certain career paths and away from others"

By who?

Did white racists decide that asians should become well paid engineers, doctors, lawyers accountant and pharmacists?

Or are you saying their parents funneled them into those career paths because parents doing it seems like culture, yet again.
I'm sure you know more about these things than I do. I won't comment on characteristics of Asian culture and discrimination that I don't know much about.

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Why do you think there is such a disparity in how much people understand antui-black racism compared to anti-asian racism?
This shouldn't be at all surprising when there have been so many more black american in America, and for longer (in very large numbers) than Asians, as well as the enormous influence of events like slavery, the Civil War, Jim Crow/segregation, and the Civil Rights movement, and this should be pretty clear.
  #169  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
The system is clearly tilted and unfair but not massively so (things are significantly improved from when I was a kid, so much so that there is no measurable race based impediment to college attendance or graduation, no measurable race baswed impediment to housing or borrowing, no impediment to seeking the highest elected office in the land). Many of the problems plaguing the black community today is the result of poverty (which is a legacy of PAST racism) and culture (which is at least in part also the legacy of past racism (and conservatives would say Democratic welfare policies encouraging single parent households).

Neither of these are permanent or innate. The problems caused by present day racism are real but are not massive (IMO) and they do not eclipse the role that poverty and culture play (IMO). Racism might be why blacks are poor but it is not what keeps them poor.

Wealth has inertia and unless you fight that inertia, poor children become poor adults. The black community is in a hole but there are ropes to climb out of that hole. Plenty of white folks want to see blacks come out of that hole but white folks are not going to jump down into that hole to push blacks up even though they're the ones that threw blacks in the hole in the first place. They have good intentions but their good intentions tend to evaporate when they have to make real and personal sacrifices (see brooklyn school redistricting meetings).

There are elements of their culture that could be modified to help them climb out of that hole. Presumably Nigerians are subject to the same present day racism that other blacks in this country are and yet they are thriving at least in some part due to their culture. If the black community could somehow modify their culture to mimic Nigerian culture, it might make a difference.
We don't see things the same way here, but we've rehashed that again and again in other threads.

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Sure changing culture is difficult but we've been trying to change the hearts and minds of racists for a pretty long time, maybe we can try something else?
I still think there's plenty of stuff to do with regards to public policy.
  #170  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:20 PM
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Absolutely.
This may be the source of your misunderstanding. Different groups place different value on education and there are consequences to those differences in priorities.

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I've seen no reason to believe otherwise, especially when these two groups reach consist of tens of millions of people. And, quite obviously, Nigerians are considered "black" in America.
And yet nigerians behave very differently towards education than most other blacks. They make sacrifices that most other blacks (and whites for that matter) would probably consider crazy.

I don't know many nigerian families but I know a lot of caribbean families and they place significant emphasis on the value of education and hard work. The parents make significant sacrifices to promote those values. They will drive shitty cars, wear discount clothing, avoid eating out, basically avoid any luxury or extravagance in order to have the resources to maximize educational opportunities. This behavior is not universal but it is very common among the caribbean families I know. It was not anywhere close to being universal behavior in some predominantly black neighborhoods.

Once again, I am not saying they are bad people, or lazy or anything like that, but there is a difference in priorities and other choices being made.

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You're not actually arguing against anything I said here. There's nothing special about you, or me, or your culture, or mine, or the present, or America. We're all just human beings.
Yes, human beings that make different choices driven in part by our culture. Choices that have lifelong consequences for the individual and their community.

We can all be human beings and still achieve different results based on the different choices we make due to our culture. It's no fault of the black kid that he was born into a culture with toxic elements that diminish his ability to succeed academically and in life. All the excuse making in the world is not going to help that kid succeed by one iota.
  #171  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:21 PM
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Is there anyone on this thread or any other that has made this claim? ANYONE? Or are you just setting up straw men so you can label anyone that disagrees with you as a racist?
I've noticed there are a lot of people who work really hard to avoid saying it out loud. But everything they are willing to say out loud is evidence of what they believe. You can judge what a person's beliefs are by what they say and do, even if they won't admit to those beliefs.
  #172  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:25 PM
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As I said before, academic success correlates with happiness. ETA, I should be clear that Iím questioning whether academic success in high school/college has much to do with happiness later in life.
So I said:
academic success=higher income
higher income leads to more happiness (to a point)

According to the transitive property if A=B and B=C then A=C

https://www.mathwords.com/t/transitive_property.htm

S if academic success=income and income=happiness then academic success=happiness.

Does that make more sense to you now?
  #173  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:32 PM
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But even that is not equal opportunity. One kid may be well fed, and the other skin and bones because his family has little money and they only have 2 meals a day. One kid may have had a series of childhood illnesses because his family can't afford healthcare. The other kid had all his shots. You think the hungry kid has an equal opportunity at beating a healthy well fed kid?
What country are you talking about?

Are you udner the impression that children in this country suffer from malnutrition? Or lack of health care?

Bwana indeed.

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In this situation you cannot compare the race results in any meaningful way. In some ways society is like your 40 yd dash, except everyone has the same finish line, but some have to run over a track with potholes and angled uphill. Think the kid who had the straight flat course is somehow a better achiever?
What arent the potholes slowing down the nigerians?
  #174  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:36 PM
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This may be the source of your misunderstanding. Different groups place different value on education and there are consequences to those differences in priorities.
So far you're just stating this, over and over again, without actual data that supports your claim that certain "cultures" (of millions of people with massively different lives that you're just lumping altogether!) value education more or less.

I have black folks in my family. They have very advanced degrees (far more than me), and did considerably better in school than me. Is their culture not authentically black? Are they somehow less black than folks who didn't do as well academically? Did they somehow go against their culture? If not, then what are you saying about "black culture", and how do my family members fit into this culture?
  #175  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:37 PM
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What arent the potholes slowing down the nigerians?
They may well be. Maybe they'd be doing even better if our society was really fair. We just don't know, considering how unfair our society is.
  #176  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:51 PM
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I don't have the cites handy (but I've used them before, so I can find them again), but per capita, significantly fewer unmarried black women are giving birth, year by year, over the past couple of decades. Fewer black children are born to single mothers every year. So whatever is happening, due to culture or broader society or whatever, it's leading to fewer unmarried births from black women. So that days would actually be consistent with that hypothesis.
Do you think that might have anything to do with the steadily increasing population of college educated black women? I'm curious if there has been some study done to suss out the effect of this heigher education among black women and the rate of single parenthood.
  #177  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:54 PM
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Culture is not a difference, significant or otherwise, between "races".

Every group identified as a "race" contains multiple cultures.

Most cultures contain people of multiple "races".



Nigerian cultures (there are more than one) ARE black cultures.

Your question translates to 'do you think black people value education as much as black people do?' It's nonsense.
Maybe you don't know this but we were talking in the context of america and there is an identifiable black culture here that can be distinguished form nigerian culture and caribbean culture etc. even though these are all black populations.

Unless you are just being silly and trying to nitpick a stupid point, in which case pretend i never responded to you.
  #178  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:55 PM
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Do you think that might have anything to do with the steadily increasing population of college educated black women? I'm curious if there has been some study done to suss out the effect of this heigher education among black women and the rate of single parenthood.
It may very well. I don't know. I started a thread last year about data that suggests that discrimination and oppression is enormously harmful to black boys and young men, but possibly significantly less so to black women, in terms of impacts on statistics:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=852276

According to that data (and as I said in that thread), there's something in society that specifically and very significantly, reduces the chances of success for black boys, but not black girls, no matter their background. Rich black boys and poor black boys are equally affected by this, but black girls do not seem to be (rather, black girls and women face other significant challenges but not these specific things, whatever they are, that are doing enormous harm to black boys).

Also, the study linked in that thread talks about Asian kids: Asians with US-born mothers have income distributions/attainments as compared to their parents roughly close to white Americans. But Asians with foreign-born mothers have income distribution/attainments much, much higher, on average.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 12-21-2019 at 02:57 PM.
  #179  
Old 12-21-2019, 02:58 PM
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Velocity's OP is a clear strawman, taking a minority view as representing all liberals, and then misrepresenting/misunderstanding that view as well. Even though I don't agree with the outlier version of the viewpoint, I thought it worth explaining where Velocity was going wrong in his analysis. That's why I wrote "Someone holding the position that ..."

If I wrote "A racist may think inequality of outcome necessarily implies an inequality of ability", would you quote only the italicized part and believe I was flip-flopping?

You pared down a text where I specifically presented arguments for "someone's" views, and stated they were my beliefs. How you cannot see that is removing context is beyond me.
Oh OK. I see what you are saying now. I thought you were saying that this was your view.

So does that mean that you do not believe that equality of opportunity between races would generally lead to equality of outcome between races?

And regardless of whether or not it is a minority view, it is shaping policy in Democratic places controlled by Democrats.
  #180  
Old 12-21-2019, 03:01 PM
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There could be many possibilities, and it would be hard to know with any certainty without further focused study. It could be some innate Nigerian cultural superiority that somehow only expresses itself in Nigerian immigrants to the US; it could be that we're getting the best and brightest of Nigeria (which seems by far the most likely to me, and could also be at least part of the explanation for statistical high achievement among Asian Americans); it could be some complex interaction of certain types of anti-black discrimination that somehow "backfire" and work the other way with certain black immigrants; it could be something I haven't thought of.
Well at least you're admitting that culture is a possibility.

I'll call that progress.

And are you under the impression that nigerians in nigeria do not value education as much as they do here?
  #181  
Old 12-21-2019, 03:12 PM
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I'm sure you know more about these things than I do. I won't comment on characteristics of Asian culture and discrimination that I don't know much about.


This shouldn't be at all surprising when there have been so many more black american in America, and for longer (in very large numbers) than Asians, as well as the enormous influence of events like slavery, the Civil War, Jim Crow/segregation, and the Civil Rights movement, and this should be pretty clear.
While none of this is comparable to centuries of slavery, asians are the only race that have been excluded from immigration. Asians are the only race that could not become citizens. Asians are the only race that has been interned. Asians are about half as common in america today as blacks.

I suspect it has more to do with the lack of asian political engagement than anything else.
  #182  
Old 12-21-2019, 03:13 PM
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We don't see things the same way here, but we've rehashed that again and again in other threads.



I still think there's plenty of stuff to do with regards to public policy.
Can you name one thing that is politically feasible?
  #183  
Old 12-21-2019, 03:14 PM
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I've noticed there are a lot of people who work really hard to avoid saying it out loud. But everything they are willing to say out loud is evidence of what they believe. You can judge what a person's beliefs are by what they say and do, even if they won't admit to those beliefs.
I've got to ask wtf are you talking about?

Aside from throwing around accusations of racism, what are you trying to say?
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Old 12-21-2019, 03:19 PM
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So far you're just stating this, over and over again, without actual data that supports your claim that certain "cultures" (of millions of people with massively different lives that you're just lumping altogether!) value education more or less.

I have black folks in my family. They have very advanced degrees (far more than me), and did considerably better in school than me. Is their culture not authentically black? Are they somehow less black than folks who didn't do as well academically? Did they somehow go against their culture? If not, then what are you saying about "black culture", and how do my family members fit into this culture?
That's called anecdote. I'm sure there are nigerians out there that do not value education and spend all their disposable income on luxury items rather than make sacrifices for their children's education.


And let me clarify. It's not that blacks don't value education. Some of them clearly do. Particularly black women. But its not the same thing. You can protest all you want but if you really think that the larger black community is placing the same emphasis on education as the nigerians then I don't know how to argue against someone that refuses to stipulate to a common set of facts.
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Old 12-21-2019, 03:20 PM
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They may well be. Maybe they'd be doing even better if our society was really fair. We just don't know, considering how unfair our society is.
Let me rephrase. How are the nigerians able to overcome those potholes? What are they doing that other blacks could emulate to achieve the same success?
  #186  
Old 12-21-2019, 03:25 PM
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It may very well. I don't know. I started a thread last year about data that suggests that discrimination and oppression is enormously harmful to black boys and young men, but possibly significantly less so to black women, in terms of impacts on statistics:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=852276

According to that data (and as I said in that thread), there's something in society that specifically and very significantly, reduces the chances of success for black boys, but not black girls, no matter their background. Rich black boys and poor black boys are equally affected by this, but black girls do not seem to be (rather, black girls and women face other significant challenges but not these specific things, whatever they are, that are doing enormous harm to black boys).
Is it possible that the toxic elements of black culture targets black boys with more toxicity than black girls.

There isn't as much downside to being a studious black girl as there is to being a studious black boy. Perhaps the culture will generally nod approvingly at good girls that study hard and don't get in trouble. But will not confer the same approval of a well behaved studious boy.
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Also, the study linked in that thread talks about Asian kids: Asians with US-born mothers have income distributions/attainments as compared to their parents roughly close to white Americans. But Asians with foreign-born mothers have income distribution/attainments much, much higher, on average.
I think that a lot of the culture is lost by the second or third generation. Some of it is because they attain some wealth and they no longer think they have to raise their kids like spartan soldiers.
  #187  
Old 12-21-2019, 03:38 PM
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That's called anecdote. I'm sure there are nigerians out there that do not value education and spend all their disposable income on luxury items rather than make sacrifices for their children's education.
But you're making sweeping judgments about a culture of millions. How and why? In case it's not clear, I don't think it's possible to make such sweeping judgments about such a large group, especially when you're not a part of it and you couldn't have intimate understanding about it. How do you know there even is a "black culture" in America when it comes to educational emphasis? How do you know you're not just buying into (whether knowingly or not) the kind of ignorant nonsense put out by right-wing radio about black people?

Maybe it's not Nigerian culture. Maybe it's immigrant culture. Maybe 1st generation immigrants just massively value education, especially if they came a long way through a difficult process, and doubly especially if they were only able to get ahead dealing with somewhat dysfunctional and semi-corrupt native institutions by tripling down on education. Maybe that would explain all of this "culture" stuff regarding the groups that appear to be ahead of the rest of the country.

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And let me clarify. It's not that blacks don't value education. Some of them clearly do. Particularly black women. But its not the same thing. You can protest all you want but if you really think that the larger black community is placing the same emphasis on education as the nigerians then I don't know how to argue against someone that refuses to stipulate to a common set of facts.
I don't think it's possible or meaningful to compare groups of millions of non-immigrants to a much smaller group of immigrants.
  #188  
Old 12-21-2019, 03:40 PM
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Is it possible that the toxic elements of black culture targets black boys with more toxicity than black girls.
It's also possible that "toxic" elements of the society around them harm black boys way more than black girls.

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There isn't as much downside to being a studious black girl as there is to being a studious black boy. Perhaps the culture will generally nod approvingly at good girls that study hard and don't get in trouble. But will not confer the same approval of a well behaved studious boy.
How do you know this? Are you sure you're not just getting this stuff from the likes of Rush Limbaugh? Sounds like the kind of stuff he puts out, even if it's not quite as hateful.

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I think that a lot of the culture is lost by the second or third generation. Some of it is because they attain some wealth and they no longer think they have to raise their kids like spartan soldiers.
So it could well be "immigrant culture", and not "Asian culture", like I suggested in my previous post.
  #189  
Old 12-21-2019, 03:43 PM
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Now we're on to the No True Blackman phase of the "debate", where success by black people is defined as the exception.
  #190  
Old 12-21-2019, 03:49 PM
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Now we're on to the No True Blackman phase of the "debate", where success by black people is conveniently defined as the exception. Any successful black person is now a rarity outside of black culture.
  #191  
Old 12-21-2019, 04:27 PM
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Joining this thread late but not really understanding how much there is to disagree about.

Do different subcultures within America have differing outcomes based difference in a wide variety of privileges? All agree I hope.

Those privileges include but likely are not limited to: racial and other group identity and thus how others treat you on that basis and what role models you have exposure to; where you live and thus what schools you go to and who you go to school with, who your friends are; household structure and support; SES; and the cultural values of you subculture, your community, and your family.

Using myself as an example I was intersectionally privileged. White Jewish male raised in a solid middle class community with an excellent school system with friends who were smart and ambitious in an academic sense, who saw that as a realistic, nay expected, path for them, role models of people like me achieving in certain ways, with parents who could afford to help support my education as far as I could take it and who put a strong expectation that I would do well academically. Some of those privileges are not independent factors but statistically co-vary, yes? Oh I still worked hard for what I have accomplished and have some intrinsic strengths that I was able to leverage, but no question that my inter-related intersectional privileges had much to do with having been both interested in trying to achieve what I have and my having the chances to get to to the plate and take my swing.

Does lack of those intersectional factors of privilege also co-vary? Of course. Really what is controversial about that? Being part of a group that is both explicitly and intrinsically discriminated against based on group membership, historic institutional factors that have inertia for generations later, lack of access to better schools and to classmates/friends who are of an intellectual bent, fewer role models of academic excellence celebrated in the media and in personal experience (changing to be sure); lower family wealth and greater frequency of parent or parents being less able to be available to help with homework (goes with SES if nothing else); and yes, the values of subculture and even more granular than that, of friend group and the interaction of top-down media images and role model availability on the culture of that friend group, the internalized self-image and expectations those encourage from early childhood on ... none are completely statistically independent factors.

"Equal opportunity" cannot in one fell swoop does erase all of those factors.

Relevant to the op I would like to share my town's High School, located in community that is mixed both racially and economically. The Black students include children of professionals who are of upper SES and more urban lower SES kids. The White kids are statistically speaking more commonly of two parent highly educated upper SES families (certainly not all). The school bemoans its "achievement gap" between groups and, to the point of the op, some in the community view the gap as evidence that the school is not providing equal opportunities and is failing "Black students." Please note - there is no question that the Black upper SES two highly educated parent households have challenges that the white students of otherwise similar backgrounds do not have. But pretty much they do as well (and in many cases better) as the similarly SES and parental education level white kids do. "The gap" is mostly between the group intersectionally challenged and those of upper SES families no matter what their group identity, and would exist no matter how equal the High School's educational opportunities. FWIW of those upper SES Black families several that I have known have pulled kids out of the public schools for middle school and back for High School out of explicit concern that the friend group culture of kids who they might self-segregate to by racial identity aspects would have a cultural impact on them that the parents wanted to avoid. Whether that was a justified fear or not I do not speak to, but it is one that was expressed.
  #192  
Old 12-22-2019, 02:31 PM
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Are you udner the impression that children in this country suffer from malnutrition? Or lack of health care?
Are you seriously under the impression that none of them do? Nice bubble you're living in.

Two cites out of literally millions of hits:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...en-vitamins-us

https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10....7.901935/full/

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Maybe you don't know this but we were talking in the context of america and there is an identifiable black culture here that can be distinguished form nigerian culture and caribbean culture etc. even though these are all black populations.
Are you claiming that black children living in a mostly-secular family in, say, downtown Los Angeles are part of the same identical culture as those living in a church-going family in, say, rural Alabama?

And, while you're at it, are you now disavowing the following post of yours, in which you claimed that culture maps to race in general?

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Your argument was that there are no significant differences between large groups that would explain the differences but culture is a significant difference between races that can explain some of the differences between groups.

I'm not saying that asian culture is awesome and trying to rub it in people's faces about how awesome asian culture is. I am saying that culture can be a distinguishing factor that can affect outcomes.
  #193  
Old 12-22-2019, 02:52 PM
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I've got to ask wtf are you talking about?

Aside from throwing around accusations of racism, what are you trying to say?
Being as this is the Great Debates forum rather than the BBQ Pit forum, I'm trying to engage in a debate without making accusations of racism. It's been taking a lot of effort.

More effort than I care to continue making.
  #194  
Old 12-22-2019, 03:03 PM
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Now we're on to the No True Blackman phase of the "debate", where success by black people is conveniently defined as the exception. Any successful black person is now a rarity outside of black culture.
Is there an argument in there somewhere you would like to share with us?
  #195  
Old 12-22-2019, 03:20 PM
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Are you seriously under the impression that none of them do? Nice bubble you're living in.

Two cites out of literally millions of hits:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...en-vitamins-us

https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10....7.901935/full/
"With hidden hunger, officially known as micronutrient deficiency, people eat enough calories, but fail to get essential nutrients such as vitamins and minerals."

So it sounds like your first link is saying that eating junk food leads to manutrition despite sufficient caloric intake. Is the sort of "malnutrition that people were complaining about? This seems like the result of poor choice not lack of resources.

And this makes sense because the government already has programs in place to provide food to children. WIC, SNAP, etc.

The second link only mentions health consequences of things like poor education and poverty not lack of health care.

And this also makes sense because we have government programs to provide health care to children, SCHIPS, Medicaid, etc.

I don't think your cites are very convincing of your position at all.

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Are you claiming that black children living in a mostly-secular family in, say, downtown Los Angeles are part of the same identical culture as those living in a church-going family in, say, rural Alabama?
Nothing is a monolith. If that is your point then I don't think anyone disagrees with you.

Only 10% of blacks live in rural communities. So I don't know if this is as big a distinction as you might think.

I don't know how the statistics break down for rural areas. How much pre-marital pregnancy occurs in rural black communities? How many single parent families are there in rural black communities? If rural blacks communities have a different culture than urban/suburban black communities then that's does't really negate anything I am saying except to point out that there is an exception to my statement in the form of rural blacks.

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And, while you're at it, are you now disavowing the following post of yours, in which you claimed that culture maps to race in general?
Exceptions don't negate rules. They sometimes prove the rule.
  #196  
Old 12-22-2019, 03:48 PM
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But you're making sweeping judgments about a culture of millions. How and why?
Yes I am making some generalizations. But they are not unfounded generalizations.

If you recall the original comparison was between asians and whites and someone insisted that we examine black/white dynamics (against my objection because I wanted to avoid triggering the easily triggered), because they thought it would make their point more clearly.

They wanted to claim that there was racism there and the racism could explain the entire disparity between black and white. And while that is possible, it is unlikely and some people think that it is unreasonable not to assume that racist doesn't explain the entire difference. In fact some people think it is racist not to assume that racism doesn't explain the entire disparity.

Whatever the reason for the disparity in their results, it seems to me that there is another black group (nigerians) that is achieving much better results as a result of making better choices and engaging in better behavior. The color of their skin doesn't seem to be an insurmountable barrier to achieving the american dream.

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In case it's not clear, I don't think it's possible to make such sweeping judgments about such a large group, especially when you're not a part of it and you couldn't have intimate understanding about it. How do you know there even is a "black culture" in America when it comes to educational emphasis? How do you know you're not just buying into (whether knowingly or not) the kind of ignorant nonsense put out by right-wing radio about black people?
I grew up in a poor black neighborhood. I saw the sacrifices my family and other asian families made. I saw the things black families made sacrifices for. And it tracks with what scientific studies say about how much more asians emphasize education and how much harder they study.

But perhaps the study was published by a bunch of racists crackpots to support their racist positions.

Let me check:

https://www.pnas.org/content/111/23/8416

It was published in the proceedings of the national academy of sciences. Are they racist crackpots?

Quote:
Maybe it's not Nigerian culture. Maybe it's immigrant culture. Maybe 1st generation immigrants just massively value education, especially if they came a long way through a difficult process, and doubly especially if they were only able to get ahead dealing with somewhat dysfunctional and semi-corrupt native institutions by tripling down on education. Maybe that would explain all of this "culture" stuff regarding the groups that appear to be ahead of the rest of the country.
That's a lot of maybes. And if your point is that noone can know for sure exactly why these disparities exist, then it's really impossible to argue against that. But at the same time you seem to want to craft policy based on the "maybe" that racism accounts for the entire disparity. We've been crafting policy on that basis for most of my life. Perhaps we can try crafting some policy on the basis that differences in culture might be a significant factor in explaining the disparity. Just in the hopes that we get some progress, because we have been spinning our wheels for decades.

Immigrant culture is still culture. Asians see a signficant dip in academic results by the 3rd or 4th generation. And asians generally consider this the result of cultural assimilation rather than an actual drop in IQ between generations. It's almost like culture has a half-life.

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I don't think it's possible or meaningful to compare groups of millions of non-immigrants to a much smaller group of immigrants.
It's certainly possible to make the comparison. I think it is extremely useful to compare how subgroups pf blacks with a distinct culture compare to the predominant black culture.

It seems to me that while it doesn't correct for all the past effects of racism, the experience of nigerians should include much of the effects of ongoing racism.
  #197  
Old 12-22-2019, 04:01 PM
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It's also possible that "toxic" elements of the society around them harm black boys way more than black girls.
Anything if possible. We have been crafting policy based on your possibilities for 50 years and according to the woke SJW crowd, the problems are worse than ever.

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So it could well be "immigrant culture", and not "Asian culture", like I suggested in my previous post.
Some of it, sure. But if immigration status is the secret sauce then why aren't ALL immigrants outperforming whites? Why are only immigrants from some cultures outperforming whites?
  #198  
Old 12-22-2019, 04:05 PM
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Being as this is the Great Debates forum rather than the BBQ Pit forum, I'm trying to engage in a debate without making accusations of racism. It's been taking a lot of effort.

More effort than I care to continue making.
Once again, not much there to debate aside from a veiled accusation of racism.

Do you have anything to offer to the debate of whether or not equality of opportunity leads to equality of results?

Do you have anything to offer at all?
  #199  
Old 12-22-2019, 04:12 PM
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Is there an argument in there somewhere you would like to share with us?


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Exceptions don't negate rules. They sometimes prove the rule.
There you go.
  #200  
Old 12-22-2019, 05:45 PM
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I grew up in a poor black neighborhood. I saw the sacrifices my family and other asian families made. I saw the things black families made sacrifices for. And it tracks with what scientific studies say about how much more asians emphasize education and how much harder they study.

But perhaps the study was published by a bunch of racists crackpots to support their racist positions.

Let me check:

https://www.pnas.org/content/111/23/8416

It was published in the proceedings of the national academy of sciences. Are they racist crackpots?
AFAICT, this study does not support your assertions, and does not dispute mine. It specifically references how immigrants are self-selected, and (if I'm reading it right) outright asserts that a large majority of the gap between Asians and whites is explained by immigration status alone.

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That's a lot of maybes.
So are your assertions, and I don't think your cites are saying what you think they are.

Quote:
And if your point is that noone can know for sure exactly why these disparities exist, then it's really impossible to argue against that. But at the same time you seem to want to craft policy based on the "maybe" that racism accounts for the entire disparity. We've been crafting policy on that basis for most of my life. Perhaps we can try crafting some policy on the basis that differences in culture might be a significant factor in explaining the disparity. Just in the hopes that we get some progress, because we have been spinning our wheels for decades.
We haven't been doing things per my preference for decades -- we've barely done it at all. Busing (unpopular as it was) was done for only a very brief period. Schools are still very segregated.

Quote:
Immigrant culture is still culture. Asians see a signficant dip in academic results by the 3rd or 4th generation. And asians generally consider this the result of cultural assimilation rather than an actual drop in IQ between generations. It's almost like culture has a half-life.
Then this would support my assertion, and wouldn't provide any support for your assertion that "toxic" culture is to blame for the black/white gap.

Quote:
It's certainly possible to make the comparison. I think it is extremely useful to compare how subgroups pf blacks with a distinct culture compare to the predominant black culture.

It seems to me that while it doesn't correct for all the past effects of racism, the experience of nigerians should include much of the effects of ongoing racism.
We don't know how much Nigerians are affected by racism. It could be that they're affected just as much, on average, as other black folks, but their self-selection (or culture or whatever) overwhelms this disadvantage by a lot. It could be that Nigerian-Americans may not be treated the same, given that they might live in different places and speak with different dialects, than black Americans who descend from enslaved persons.

Yes, it's a whole lot of maybes, but that's because there's been so little that's actually been done to alleviate the remaining effects of racism since the CR movement. As long as racism is so powerful in institutions and society in general, we really can't have any idea the significance of other factors when it comes to achievement. We need to solve that problem first before we can even think about blaming the culture of the statistical downtrodden for their failings.

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Anything if possible. We have been crafting policy based on your possibilities for 50 years and according to the woke SJW crowd, the problems are worse than ever.
Like I said before, no we haven't. We've done very little of this. In my understanding, most non-black Americans still see African American Vernacular English (AAVE) as "bad English" rather than a real dialect of English, with rules of grammar and such just like any dialect... a thing which really and very significantly holds back AAVE-only children in school (and I started a thread which went into detail about this). We've only just started to try and address the bone-shaking and life-changing fear that many black Americans face when dealing with law enforcement, which quite reasonably can destroy any hope of trust and faith in dealing with the institutions of society in the "right" way (i.e. the way rich white kids are treated when it comes to authority figures in school, government, and society).

We've got a long, long way to go.

Quote:
Some of it, sure. But if immigration status is the secret sauce then why aren't ALL immigrants outperforming whites? Why are only immigrants from some cultures outperforming whites?
Here's one hypothesis -- having at least two of these three factors for immigrants can massively increase their chances of success, statistically speaking: 1. Having come a very long way on a very difficult journey (which weeds out those immigrants with the drive, talent, skill, etc., to make it); 2. Having the ability to blend in superficially with the majority population (i.e. Finnish or German or English immigrants); and 3. Having an existing population already in the country that is very well represented among high income, high skill, and/or high status jobs and positions. Central American immigrants fleeing likely murder might meet #1, but not #2 or #3; Asian (and Nigerian) immigrants might often meet #1 and #3, but not #2; Western European immigrants might meet #1 and #2. Etc. Your cites appear to reinforce the importance of the self-selection of immigrants when it comes to these statistics.
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