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Old 12-27-2019, 01:29 PM
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Mental health hold on Trump?


https://www.salon.com/2019/12/27/pel...ist-bandy-lee/

In this Salon article Bandy Lee says that Nancy Pelosi has the right under the law to request a psych evaluation of turnp, looking prospectively at the 25 amendment.

What do we know about the law of psychiatric holds? What about as applied to the potus? How would that go down?

Last edited by drad dog; 12-27-2019 at 01:30 PM.
  #2  
Old 12-27-2019, 01:50 PM
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She doesn't reference any special Congressional powers. If you thought your next door neighbor was homicidal, suicidal, or gravely disabled, you would call local law enforcement. In my area, if LEO considered there to be legitimate danger, they would bring to a local ER for medical clearance where we would rule out things like intoxication, brain tumors, meningitis, etc. and then set you up with a mobile crisis evaluation. Those generally end with a discharge, or transfer to a psych facility either voluntarily or as a 5150.
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Old 12-27-2019, 01:53 PM
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I am for any legal action that serves to bring on his looming psychotic breakdown. Anything from mental health holds to supreme court rulings to disclose his financial history.
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Old 12-27-2019, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
https://www.salon.com/2019/12/27/pel...ist-bandy-lee/

In this Salon article Bandy Lee says that Nancy Pelosi has the right under the law to request a psych evaluation of turnp, looking prospectively at the 25 amendment.

What do we know about the law of psychiatric holds? What about as applied to the potus? How would that go down?
Sure, she can request it. Not gonna happen. It wouldn't "go down"

Come on, you can't possibly believe this article.
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Old 12-27-2019, 03:47 PM
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If it's in Salon, it's probably not true.
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Old 12-27-2019, 05:20 PM
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Sure, she can request it. Not gonna happen. It wouldn't "go down"

Come on, you can't possibly believe this article.
Well, I don't doubt that Bandy Lee is saying that.
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Old 12-27-2019, 05:22 PM
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Sure, she can request it. Not gonna happen. It wouldn't "go down"

Come on, you can't possibly believe this article.
Believe what about the article? You mean it is entirely fabricated?
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Old 12-27-2019, 05:27 PM
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“As a coworker, she has the right to have him submit to an involuntary evaluation, but she has not,” Lee told Salon. "Anyone can call 911 to report someone who seems dangerous, and family members are the most typical ones to do so. But so can coworkers, and even passersby on the street. The law dictates who can determine right to treatment, or civil commitment, and in all 50 U.S. states this includes a psychiatrist.


From the article. I wonder what happens when this occurs.

So it's not going to happenever? OK, I still wonder what happens when this occurs.

tornp is very unstable. It's easy to be confident about theoreticals. What about the real situatuon we are in?

What percentage of the way do you think he has gone towards "batshit unpresentable", so far?

If that happens 25 will come up.

Last edited by drad dog; 12-27-2019 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 12-27-2019, 05:53 PM
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As a coworker, she has the right to have him submit to an involuntary evaluation...
No, Pelosi doesn't have the right to force anyone, let alone the President, to submit to an involuntary examination.
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What about the real situatuon we are in?
The real situation is that Trump is President, Pelosi can't do anything about that, and the Salon article is revenge fantasy.
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Believe what about the article? You mean it is entirely fabricated?
Yes.

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Old 12-27-2019, 05:56 PM
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Pelosi, of course, will never come within a million miles of this. Why? Because she's sane.

If Trump is truly insane, then the remedy has to come via the constitutionally approved process, the 25th Amendment. That has to be initiated by Republicans. Democrats need not play any part in it whatsoever. Wonderful, but mere wishful thinking.
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Old 12-27-2019, 06:38 PM
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Pelosi, of course, will never come within a million miles of this. Why? Because she's sane.

If Trump is truly insane, then the remedy has to come via the constitutionally approved process, the 25th Amendment. That has to be initiated by Republicans. Democrats need not play any part in it whatsoever. Wonderful, but mere wishful thinking.
So if tranp becomes non functioning what do you think happens?

It's clear that Republicans can't be trusted to judge whether turnop is insane.
I can't see Rs doing anything except try to hide him. They would probably rather destroy the country in a war than use 25. They would rather be russian subjects than use 25. So what happens when they try to hide him for 48 hours or so?

Pelosi is his coworker and he needs to be compos mentis in front of her to do the nations business. She is also his adversary and is in the business of removing him for unfitnes. She is where the rubber hits the road in this. It is in dealing with her that he will fail. It won't be with republicans. They like his effluvia.

I get how everyone likes to be all knowing. Congratulations by the way.

OK so donnie is insane. The rebupkis are hiding him. Nancy needs to meet with him for the countries business. What happens. Don't tell me you're not curious about this.
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Old 12-27-2019, 07:10 PM
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So if tranp becomes non functioning what do you think happens?

It's clear that Republicans can't be trusted to judge whether turnop is insane.
I can't see Rs doing anything except try to hide him. They would probably rather destroy the country in a war than use 25. They would rather be russian subjects than use 25. So what happens when they try to hide him for 48 hours or so?

Pelosi is his coworker and he needs to be compos mentis in front of her to do the nations business. She is also his adversary and is in the business of removing him for unfitnes. She is where the rubber hits the road in this. It is in dealing with her that he will fail. It won't be with republicans. They like his effluvia.

I get how everyone likes to be all knowing. Congratulations by the way.

OK so donnie is insane. The rebupkis are hiding him. Nancy needs to meet with him for the countries business. What happens. Don't tell me you're not curious about this.
Why would they try to hide him? The article is a joke. There is no way that this could happen.

What do you think would happen if some shrink from Yale showed up at the front gate of the White House and demanded to see Trump. Probably a few laughs from the secret service guys but not much else. No need to hide anywhere.
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Old 12-27-2019, 07:23 PM
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The Soviet Union used to stifle political dissidents with psychiatric "treatment":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poli...e_Soviet_Union
Here Trump is the political dissident and those proposing this want to adopt methods like the Soviet Union used. Think about it.
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Old 12-27-2019, 07:49 PM
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So if tranp becomes non functioning what do you think happens?
He already is pretty much non-functioning. I mean, he doesn't contribute much at all to his administration. It's the other people who do things. He doesn't even come up with ideas--he just cops things from Fox news.

Unfortunately, a lot of co-workers (and company heads) are like that, so it's not that unusual. To call in a 5150 on someone they have to be an immediate threat to themselves or someone else.
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Old 12-27-2019, 07:53 PM
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The Soviet Union used to stifle political dissidents with psychiatric "treatment":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poli...e_Soviet_Union
Here Trump is the political dissident and those proposing this want to adopt methods like the Soviet Union used. Think about it.
I thought about it. Turmp needs a psychiatric hold. I think those students were treated badly.
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Old 12-27-2019, 07:56 PM
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I thought about it. Turmp needs a psychiatric hold. I think those students were treated badly.
And who do you think I going to put him on one? What agency do you suppose it is that has the power to knock on the White House door and say "You're coming with us, Mr. President"?
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Old 12-27-2019, 08:01 PM
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He already is pretty much non-functioning. I mean, he doesn't contribute much at all to his administration. It's the other people who do things. He doesn't even come up with ideas--he just cops things from Fox news.

Unfortunately, a lot of co-workers (and company heads) are like that, so it's not that unusual. To call in a 5150 on someone they have to be an immediate threat to themselves or someone else.
He is not non-functioning at all AFAICS. He's a 73 year old out on the campaign trail. He is unstable though and getting worse. Non functioning to me is: they won't let him out of his room. You know they have already had these thoughts. It has worked out so far but one day it won't.
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Old 12-27-2019, 08:03 PM
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And who do you think I going to put him on one? What agency do you suppose it is that has the power to knock on the White House door and say "You're coming with us, Mr. President"?
Slow down son. First you need to admire my answer.

Everyone wants to be nostradamus.
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Old 12-27-2019, 08:07 PM
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Why would they try to hide him? The article is a joke. There is no way that this could happen.

What do you think would happen if some shrink from Yale showed up at the front gate of the White House and demanded to see Trump. Probably a few laughs from the secret service guys but not much else. No need to hide anywhere.
If he is non compos mentis they will try to hide him it seems to me. If you have another theory feel free. What else would they do? Have you watched their antics lately.

But he is not there right now. So I guess there's that to argue with. "He's not drooling yet"

Q: What will the Rs do with a vegetable trump if the public doesn't know it yet?

Last edited by drad dog; 12-27-2019 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 12-27-2019, 08:27 PM
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ďAs a coworker, she has the right to have him submit to an involuntary evaluation, but she has not,Ē Lee told Salon. "...
What kind of fucked up offices has Lee worked in?!
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Old 12-27-2019, 09:21 PM
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He is not non-functioning at all AFAICS. He's a 73 year old out on the campaign trail. He is unstable though and getting worse. Non functioning to me is: they won't let him out of his room. You know they have already had these thoughts. It has worked out so far but one day it won't.
I meant exactly that. He's non-functioning as president. Yeah, of course he's always campaigning. That's all he wants to do, because he knows that at the rallies all there will be are idiots who are in his cult. He can put on his bullshit-spewing act and they'll lap up his bullshit blindly.

As to actually making the country run better, I doubt he contributes anything at all toward that. In that sense, he's a "co-worker" who's non-functioning.

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Old 12-27-2019, 09:48 PM
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I meant exactly that. He's non-functioning as president. Yeah, of course he's always campaigning. That's all he wants to do, because he knows that at the rallies all there will be are idiots who are in his cult. He can put on his bullshit-spewing act and they'll lap up his bullshit blindly.

As to actually making the country run better, I doubt he contributes anything at all toward that. In that sense, he's a "co-worker" who's non-functioning.
But these holds aren't for presidents, they are for people generally. And not about job competence really. That wouldn't be my bar for it anyway. (I've been a public employee. I've had nonfunctioning coworkers) You have to be irrational and/or present some momentary danger, on film and in front of a mixed audience probably. What if he waved a baby over a balcony?

I'm not complacent about his strength and skills on the trail right now. I'm impressed. But he's down the road so to speak.

Last edited by drad dog; 12-27-2019 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 12-27-2019, 09:54 PM
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ďAs a coworker, she has the right to have him submit to an involuntary evaluation, but she has not,Ē Lee told Salon. "Anyone can call 911 to report someone who seems dangerous, and family members are the most typical ones to do so. But so can coworkers, and even passersby on the street. The law dictates who can determine right to treatment, or civil commitment, and in all 50 U.S. states this includes a psychiatrist.


From the article. I wonder what happens when this occurs.

So it's not going to happenever? OK, I still wonder what happens when this occurs.

tornp is very unstable. It's easy to be confident about theoreticals. What about the real situatuon we are in?

What percentage of the way do you think he has gone towards "batshit unpresentable", so far?

If that happens 25 will come up.
My wife works in public mental health in Texas. I assume most states are similar or better, since Texas has abysmal mental health care (and health care in general).

If a person encounters another person who appears to need assistance, he calls 911. A police officer or sheriff's deputy responds to the scene. If the 911 operator can determine that this is a mental health situation, he/she may try to send an officer trained in mental health issues. If the subject is determine to be a danger to himself or others, the officer will transport him to the local emergency room or jail. At that time, someone like my wife (a case manager) will be called. Think of the old ER TV show when someone is being held on a "psych consult". That's my wife (or used to be -- she doesn't do that much any more). The crisis manager will arrive and assess the subject using a rubric that he/she has and is trained in how to use. The subject must be medically stable (as in, not injured or requiring medical assistance). If the crisis manager determines that the subject requires further mental health assistance, he/she will present the information to a justice of the peace. The JP will then issue the order to involuntarily commit the subject. The subject will then be transported by a local LEO to the closest state hospital that has an available bed. It may take many hours to find a facility with an available space.

The most high-profile person my wife has ever worked with was the subject of an animal hoarders show on Animal Planet. While the cameras and officers were out rescuing the animals, the hoarder was in my wife's office being evaluated.

That's a pretty far cry from POTUS.
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Old 12-27-2019, 10:09 PM
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I don't like Trump as a person. I feel he's not very smart and has a lot of personality problems. I feel he's an incompetent President. And I think he's committed several serious crimes.

But I don't feel he is physically or mentally incapacitated. Congress should not be seeking to invoke the 25th Amendment.

Let's remove Trump from office through legal means.
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Old 12-27-2019, 10:48 PM
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I don't like Trump as a person. I feel he's not very smart and has a lot of personality problems. I feel he's an incompetent President. And I think he's committed several serious crimes.

But I don't feel he is physically or mentally incapacitated. Congress should not be seeking to invoke the 25th Amendment.

Let's remove Trump from office through legal means.
This situation is a rolling doughnut. But it sounds like you think of it as static. In what way can one assume he will continue to be "stable enough" through time? I can't assume it. The problem is it will be a self fulfilling prophecy if enough dems think the outcomes of all these things are foregone. Have you ever read Timothy Snyder?
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Old 12-27-2019, 10:49 PM
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Personally, I think mental healthís hold on Trump is slipping.

That said, the Constitution provides a remedy. The Veep and the Cabinet can initiate a review, if they think the President is incapacitated, and the Congress then judges.

The idea that a mental health review under the local statute could be used to do a run-around the constitutional process designed for this precise situation is ludicrous.
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Old 12-27-2019, 11:41 PM
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Really, this is sovereign citizen-type thinking. Even if, under the appropriate interpretation, that is the law, it's absolutely impossible to enforce, because the person charged with executing the law is the one for whom the law is needed.
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Old 12-27-2019, 11:49 PM
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Pelosi: Trump, you need to submit to a psychiatric evaluation. I'm sending people over to examine your head now.

Trump: No.




....That's the end of it.
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Old 12-28-2019, 12:14 AM
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Pelosi: Trump, you need to submit to a psychiatric evaluation. I'm sending people over to examine your head now.

Trump: No.




....That's the end of it.
The end of what?

Just think about what you're saying and imagine it being the end of something...

The point of the article is that in terms of reality, the one we all inhabit, she is sounding a danger alarm, that needs to be in the public dialogue. She was trying to illustrate how dangerous terpn is, and how real it is for NP and for us all.

Lets compare her words to the opinions of the posters here for instance. Here we all know how it ends before it happens, and we know she is right about his mind and psyche, but she should shut up because it wont make a difference to the reality we live in.

Now, she is bringing the reality of a potus whose mind is deteriorating and who is hateful, into the public square. It is very ironiuc that on the internets of yak she will be lectured on the "reality" of the law by those who deny the reality of the danger..

NP at the very least should be apprised of the article. It's all about bringing sunshine where there was darkness.
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Old 12-28-2019, 12:32 AM
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I'm curious as to who you think is this hypothetical person who currently believes that Trump is a Very Stable Genius, who would be convinced otherwise by Nancy Pelosi saying someone should check on him.
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Old 12-28-2019, 01:14 AM
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Here we all know how it ends before it happens, and we know she is right about his mind and psyche, but she should shut up because it wont make a difference to the reality we live in.
Hard disagree, she's not right about his mind and psyche. Narcissism and grandiosity may well be dangerous in the powerful, and Trump may well be unfit, but the kind of holds discussed in that opinion piece apply to people who are imminently, creditably homicidal, suicidal or gravely disabled, Trump is not. I don't know what he says in his bedroom, but I'm highly skeptical that Lee has special knowledge, if she did, she'd be ethically bound to make the call to emergency services herself.
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Old 12-28-2019, 01:41 AM
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Here Trump is the political dissident
You're claiming the President of the United States is a political dissident. Think about that for a second.
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Old 12-28-2019, 01:50 AM
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This situation is a rolling doughnut. But it sounds like you think of it as static. In what way can one assume he will continue to be "stable enough" through time? I can't assume it. The problem is it will be a self fulfilling prophecy if enough dems think the outcomes of all these things are foregone. Have you ever read Timothy Snyder?
It may be a rolling doughnut. I have no idea because I don't know what that means.

I feel that we should try to maintain the principle of having objective standards. We shouldn't abandon that and decide that Trump's insane if we can get enough legislators together to vote that he's insane.

And yes, I have read some of Snyder's works. I think he can be myopic, which is a bad trait in a historian.
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Old 12-28-2019, 01:59 AM
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Pelosi: Trump, you need to submit to a psychiatric evaluation. I'm sending people over to examine your head now.

Trump: No.




....That's the end of it.
I'm assuming the plan would be to use the 25th Amendment. That says that Congress has the power to create a body to determine if the President is unable to perform the duties of his office.

So Pelosi could propose a psychological review board and staff if with people who would be prone to issue a negative evaluation of Trump's abilities. Of course, she'd have to convince a majority of both the House of Representatives and the Senate to vote for this proposal. I think there's very little chance she'd get it through the House and no chance she'd get it through the Senate.
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Old 12-28-2019, 04:13 AM
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You're claiming the President of the United States is a political dissident. Think about that for a second.
Of course. He's a political dissident elected by the persecuted and disempowered white majority.
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Old 12-28-2019, 05:15 AM
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You're claiming the President of the United States is a political dissident. Think about that for a second.
I don't think he's claiming that, I think he's making an analogy.

Trump isn't crazy, claims that he is are just more straw grabbing. The democrats will have to do better than that to unseat him in 2020.
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Last edited by EasyPhil; 12-28-2019 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 12-28-2019, 06:27 AM
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If congress decides to pursue the 25th Amendment approach, they could set up a body to evaluate the president's fitness for the office. This, I assume, would be like any governmental agency - congress would have to write the laws defining its scope and arranging its funding and the president could (and certainly would) veto it. Assuming congress can override and get the Presidential Fitness Evaluation Board (PFEB) established, I assume it would investigatory and subpoena powers to question various executive branch employees and could invoke the 25th to turn the powers over the the vice-president. This could very quickly become abusive, I trust anyone can see (picture the Benghazi committee hearings, cubed), and if it gets set up for Trump, it's absolutely certain something similar will be set up in future the next time the Democrats have the White House and the Republicans have congress. There won't be any need to prove the president is mentally ill, just that he appears unable to perform the duties of the office for some reason.

It's nice to imagine this being used to boot Trump, but I predict it will have similar effect as the effortless filibuster - now congress can hamstring the president without having to go to the effort and political risk of the impeachment process. It's too easy for them, and the worst among them will certainly abuse the opportunity.

Last edited by Bryan Ekers; 12-28-2019 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 12-28-2019, 07:44 AM
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I'm assuming the plan would be to use the 25th Amendment. That says that Congress has the power to create a body to determine if the President is unable to perform the duties of his office.
Under the 25th, what can that body do if the VP says, whatís that? Huh. No, heís fine; did you have any other questions?
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Old 12-28-2019, 08:10 AM
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I don't think he's claiming that, I think he's making an analogy.

Trump isn't crazy, claims that he is are just more straw grabbing. The democrats will have to do better than that to unseat him in 2020.
What Trump said about wind and cancer: "And they say the noise causes cancer. You tell me that one (makes whirring noise mimicking a turbine).Ē

Well, if he's not crazy, he's one stupid motherfucker. Or he knows his supporters are. I'm going to vote both. Both in an election, and my opinion of this asshole.

Perhaps his in-depth study of wind turbines made him crazy and stupid? Or he's just the lying con-man that he has always been. It's sad (to use Trump's terminology) to see that his supporters can't see what a ridiculous asshole he is.
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Old 12-28-2019, 08:49 AM
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Under the 25th, what can that body do if the VP says, what’s that? Huh. No, he’s fine; did you have any other questions?
Well, calling the president unable to do the job is like calling him a pigfucker - it doesn't matter if it's true, the point is to make him deny it. And if the vice-president simply refuses to take the duty, I guess it passes to the Speaker. I assume the president will immediately object and if the vice-president doesn't oppose, the president gets the office and powers back, but there will be a tiny window of opportunity....

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Old 12-28-2019, 08:54 AM
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Well, calling the president unable to do the job is like calling him a pigfucker - it doesn't matter if it's true, the point is to make him deny it. And if the vice-president simply refuses to take the duty, I guess it passes to the Speaker.
You guess it passes to the Speaker?
  #42  
Old 12-28-2019, 09:00 AM
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Pelosi is his coworker and he needs to be compos mentis in front of her to do the nations business. She is also his adversary and is in the business of removing him for unfitnes. She is where the rubber hits the road in this. It is in dealing with her that he will fail. It won't be with republicans. They like his effluvia.
It's not only nonsense, it's complete fucking nonsense.

In one instance, Nancy Pelosi is not his co-worker in any real way. She's a part of a separate branch of government. Occasionally, they may be required to interact but they only do so at their own discretion.

Yes, I suppose someone on the street may make the case that he's somehow clinically insane - narcissism doesn't count or we'd lose 90% of congress and CEOs - and therefore a danger to those around him. Sure, but that's provided for by the 25th Amendment. If Pence and a majority of the cabinet - or other body as Congress may appoint - alerts Pelosi and Grassley that they believe he's incapacitated he can be temporarily removed and a process begins where it can be permanent.

There are only four ways to remove a sitting president.

Loss of Election
Voluntary Resignation
25th Amendment, Section 4
Impeachment by the House and Removal by the Senate

Anything else - ANYTHING ELSE - is fairytales and nonsense from someone who has either an ax to grind or column inches to fill. Learn this. Assume it into yourself.

Because the sort of article you link? It doesn't help. It's the exact opposite of helping. It's hysterical shrieking that agitates our opponents more than our own people.

Want to remove Trump? Find your local Democratic Party office. Walk in. Volunteer. Donate money. Run for office yourself with the stated aim of returning dignity to elected office.

But this? It's just embarrassing for everyone involved.
  #43  
Old 12-28-2019, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
You guess it passes to the Speaker?
Yes, I'm guessing how a hypothetical and unprecedented conflict between two of the three branches of the U.S. government will play out. It would certainly be amusing, I admit, if Pence showed hesitation and Pelosi instantly started calling herself the Acting President and issuing orders. Could Pence then demand to take the title and duties from her, if for some reason Trump himself was not able to do so? It's potential constitutional-crisis territory. For an even bigger wrinkle, imagine that Trump imagines that if Pelosi becomes Acting President, however briefly, she'd have to resign as Speaker and he sees this as a brilliant 19-dimensional chess move on his part. Then Pelosi counters that the two occasions when Dick Cheney became Acting President, he didn't resign the Vice-Presidency to do so, therefore she's under no obligation to resign, either.

Last edited by Bryan Ekers; 12-28-2019 at 09:08 AM.
  #44  
Old 12-28-2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
There are only four ways to remove a sitting president.

Loss of Election
If one were to get nitpicky (forfend!), does that really constitute a "removal"? To me, it looks more like the sitting president's contract was not renewed so he runs out the clock until his replacement shows up. If losing an election counts as a removal, than arguably a two-term president gets removed by term limits.

This is not a hill I'm prepared to defend in any way whatsoever.
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:18 AM
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Nor am I, really, because it's just terms.

I just wanted to list the ways that a President could STOP being President while remaining alive. I didn't want to get grim. And, frankly, I really don't like seeing death-wishes occur on the SDMB if it can be at all avoided.
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:19 AM
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Here's the relevant section of the 25th Amendment:

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Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.
In other words:
By default, the Vice President and the majority of the Cabinet have the power to find the President incompetent.

Congress could, if they choose, create a different body for evaluating the President. I don't think they have, but if they did (which would of course be impossible with the current makeup of Congress), then it'd be the Vice President and a majority of that body.

Even if the Vice President and whichever other group declare the President incompetent, the President can just turn around and say "No, I am competent". If the VP and other group still say that he's incompetent, then the matter goes before both houses of Congress, and they both need a 2/3 agreement (a significantly higher bar than removal through impeachment, which only requires a majority in the House and 60% of the Senate) to permanently remove the President.

So you're positing a situation where the Vice President (and the cabinet, and a supermajority of both houses) says that the President should be replaced, but that he's not going to be the one to do it? Huh?
  #47  
Old 12-28-2019, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
Yes, I'm guessing how a hypothetical and unprecedented conflict between two of the three branches of the U.S. government will play out. It would certainly be amusing, I admit, if Pence showed hesitation and Pelosi instantly started calling herself the Acting President and issuing orders. Could Pence then demand to take the title and duties from her, if for some reason Trump himself was not able to do so? It's potential constitutional-crisis territory.
But why Pelosi?

If you’re going to reference the 25th, why not ask what’ll happen if you start calling yourself the Acting President before issuing orders? Or what’ll happen if a mayor or a high-school principal or the drunk down at the local bar starts saying that and doing that? I don’t see that the 25th says a thing about that drunk or that principal or that mayor starting the ball rolling, or a thing about Pelosi starting the ball rolling; why bother to construct that 25th-Amendment ‘crisis’ hypothetical involving her, when as far as I can tell the 25th involves either (a) Pence starting the ball rolling, or (b) I’m sorry, I’ll say that again?

Last edited by The Other Waldo Pepper; 12-28-2019 at 09:20 AM.
  #48  
Old 12-28-2019, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
Yes, I'm guessing how a hypothetical and unprecedented conflict between two of the three branches of the U.S. government will play out. It would certainly be amusing, I admit, if Pence showed hesitation and Pelosi instantly started calling herself the Acting President and issuing orders. Could Pence then demand to take the title and duties from her, if for some reason Trump himself was not able to do so? It's potential constitutional-crisis territory. For an even bigger wrinkle, imagine that Trump imagines that if Pelosi becomes Acting President, however briefly, she'd have to resign as Speaker and he sees this as a brilliant 19-dimensional chess move on his part. Then Pelosi counters that the two occasions when Dick Cheney became Acting President, he didn't resign the Vice-Presidency to do so, therefore she's under no obligation to resign, either.
I don't think Pence COULD avoid becoming Acting President in this case.

The 25th states pretty clearly that:

Quote:
From Section 4 of the 25th Amendment
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
The minute that decision is made and transmitted to Pelosi and Grassley then Pence is IT. He's in the hot seat whether he wants it or not. It's part of what he took on when he swore his oath of office.

Now, he could resign as Acting President and that would drop it on Pelosi. But that requires an affirmative act on Pence's part to resign. Pelosi can't just say, "Too slow, Mike! Get our of my chair!"

Plus, the 25th is a process, not a destination. Even after that happens a President can still offer to congress 'No, I'm fine! I'm still President.' and the same people who voted above - including Pence - would have to reassert his incapacity within 4 days. Then Congress has 21 days to decide things one way or the other.
  #49  
Old 12-28-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
But why Pelosi?

If youíre going to reference the 25th, why not ask whatíll happen if you start calling yourself the Acting President before issuing orders? Or whatíll happen if a mayor or a high-school principal or the drunk down at the local bar starts saying that and doing that? I donít see that the 25th says a thing about that drunk or that principal or that mayor starting the ball rolling, or a thing about Pelosi starting the ball rolling; why bother to construct that 25th-Amendment Ďcrisisí hypothetical involving her, when as far as I can tell the 25th involves either (a) Pence starting the ball rolling, or (b) Iím sorry, Iíll say that again?
I honestly can't figure out what you're objecting to. To me, it looks like a pretty straightforward if purely hypothetical chain of events:

1. Congress follows the relevant passage of the 25th: "...or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President." They set up such a body and it makes such a declaration.

2. In your post #38, you offer "Under the 25th, what can that body do if the VP says, whatís that? Huh. No, heís fine; did you have any other questions?"

3. I take this to mean the Vice-President is refusing the Acting Presidency, not rejecting the declaration that the President is unable to discharge (though that might be his intent). I don't see anything in the 25th that says the Veep can refuse to recognize the declaration.

4. Upon the Veep's refusal to assume the duty, the line of succession moves to the Speaker (who is currently Nancy Pelosi, hence "why Pelosi"), who I guess becomes Acting President.

I'm not sure why you think it's relevant that I might make a declaration that I'm now Acting President, or indeed why anyone not in the U.S. line of presidential succession making such a declaration might be considered relevant.

Last edited by Bryan Ekers; 12-28-2019 at 09:41 AM.
  #50  
Old 12-28-2019, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
I honestly can't figure out what you're objecting to. To me, it looks like a pretty straightforward if purely hypothetical chain of events:

1. Congress follows the relevant passage of the 25th: "...or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President." They set up such a body and it makes such a declaration.
As far as I can tell, itís not ďsuch other bodyĒ; itís to be set in motion by the VP and members of that other body. If the VP isnít on board at the start, then as far as I can tell there is no start.
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