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  #1  
Old 12-29-2019, 04:13 AM
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Should Joe Biden Testify During the Impeachment Hearings?


From the original NPR transcript 20 days ago:
Quote:
NPR: But this is a real thing that's happening. Republicans are suggesting that they would subpoena you and President Trump — these issues will be parsed out in the Senate trial.

JB: That's right.

NPR: But the question is, would you comply with the subpoena?

JB: No, I will not yield to what everybody is looking for here.
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/09/78552...=1577609658951

Biden's since walked his comments back a bit saying he would comply with the law, but is still equivocating:
Quote:
But I am just not going to pretend that there is any legal basis for Republican subpoenas for my testimony in the impeachment trial.
https://time.com/5756251/biden-trump...iowa-subpoena/

If Biden has nothing to hide, then he should welcome the chance to testify before the Senate and be exonerated, correct?

Last edited by Wrenching Spanners; 12-29-2019 at 04:14 AM.
  #2  
Old 12-29-2019, 04:49 AM
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The entire reason the Republicans want Biden there is to turn it into a trial of Biden instead of a trial of Trump's conduct as President, which is what they're supposed to be doing.

Not only should Biden not be there, the partisan idiots who proposed this idea should be struck on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and firmly told "No!"

Last edited by Broomstick; 12-29-2019 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 12-29-2019, 04:59 AM
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Nope. He's not the one on trial, Trump is.
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:31 AM
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The entire reason the Republicans want Biden there is to turn it into a trial of Biden instead of a trial of Trump's conduct as President, which is what they're supposed to be doing.

Not only should Biden not be there, the partisan idiots who proposed this idea should be struck on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and firmly told "No!"
But if both Joe Biden and Hunter Biden have done nothing wrong, then Joe Biden's testimony will establish that, correct? Which will make Trump's attempt to have the Bidens investigated by Ukrainian authorities look even more foolish and corrupt.

If the Biden's have nothing to hide, then Joe's testimony will be a bland side part of the Senate trial. Why should Joe Biden resist providing honest innocent answers to senators if it's not going to do him any harm and may actually make Trump look worse?
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
But if both Joe Biden and Hunter Biden have done nothing wrong, then Joe Biden's testimony will establish that, correct? Which will make Trump's attempt to have the Bidens investigated by Ukrainian authorities look even more foolish and corrupt.

If the Biden's have nothing to hide, then Joe's testimony will be a bland side part of the Senate trial. Why should Joe Biden resist providing honest innocent answers to senators if it's not going to do him any harm and may actually make Trump look worse?
Because it's a bullshit distraction tactic. The Bidens are not on trial, Trump is.
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:40 AM
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Nope. He's not the one on trial, Trump is.
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Because it's a bullshit distraction tactic. The Bidens are not on trial, Trump is.
I'm not asking about Trump, I'm asking about Biden. Suppose he's called before the Senate to give testimony. He may think it's a waste of time or a distraction, but that's not his call to make, it's the Senate's. Why should he resist a call from his government to testify when, if he's done nothing wrong, his testimony won't hurt him at all?

Last edited by Wrenching Spanners; 12-29-2019 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:46 AM
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I'm not asking about Trump, I'm asking about Biden. Suppose he's called before the Senate to give testimony. He may think it's a waste of time or a distraction, but that's not his call to make, it's the Senate's. Why should he resist a call from his government to testify when, if he's done nothing wrong, his testimony won't hurt him at all?
There's no good-faith reason for the Senate to call him.
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:54 AM
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There's no good-faith reason for the Senate to call him.
So Biden get's to decide that, and determine at the same time that his judgement override's that of the Senate? I'm pretty sure that's not an option available to witnesses at most other trials.
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:55 AM
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There's no good-faith reason for the Senate to call him.
Good faith arguments seem to be in short supply amongst the right wing these days -whether it's the politicians, or their supporters.

This is a trial of Trump. The Bidens have nothing to do with the charges. That's all there is to it.
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Old 12-29-2019, 06:29 AM
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But if both Joe Biden and Hunter Biden have done nothing wrong, then Joe Biden's testimony will establish that, correct? Which will make Trump's attempt to have the Bidens investigated by Ukrainian authorities look even more foolish and corrupt.

If the Biden's have nothing to hide, then Joe's testimony will be a bland side part of the Senate trial. Why should Joe Biden resist providing honest innocent answers to senators if it's not going to do him any harm and may actually make Trump look worse?
No, it will turn this into a trial of Joe Biden instead of a trial of Donald Trump, which is what the Republican strategy has been all along. This strategy is what led to the current political crisis in the first place, with Donald Trump's administration trying to use federal taxpayer money as political leverage to force Ukraine's government to announce that Biden was under investigation in Ukraine.

Biden knows that he wouldn't be helping himself by testifying; he would simply be validating a strategy that everyone other than the most partisan conservatives realize is an attempt to present an alternative reality to the public.
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Old 12-29-2019, 06:31 AM
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Good faith arguments seem to be in short supply amongst the right wing these days -whether it's the politicians, or their supporters.

This is a trial of Trump. The Bidens have nothing to do with the charges. That's all there is to it.
This is exactly how Democrats should respond.

Just, no.

We're not playing that game.
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Old 12-29-2019, 06:53 AM
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So Biden get's to decide that, and determine at the same time that his judgement override's that of the Senate? I'm pretty sure that's not an option available to witnesses at most other trials.
Let me put it this way.

Loser Donald has been impeached on two charges;

1) That he attempted to solicit the government of Ukraine to interfere in the 2020 election on his behalf

2) That he misused the powers of the presidency to obstruct Congress' investigation of the first charge

For what reason should Joe Biden be called to testify as to the facts of either of these charges?

Last edited by Smapti; 12-29-2019 at 06:56 AM.
  #13  
Old 12-29-2019, 07:03 AM
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Nope. He's not the one on trial, Trump is.
Yes, Trump is on trial. That's the point. In order to divert attention from Trump his cronies want to turn Trump's trial into a trial of Biden. Please, follow the breadcrumbs. If it helps I'll use breadslices or entire loaves.

The ONLY reason to call Biden is to divert attention from Trump's wrong-doings.
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Old 12-29-2019, 07:08 AM
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I'm not asking about Trump, I'm asking about Biden.
Yes. You're asking about Trump. The answer is that calling Biden before the senate is a tactic to distract from Trump's wrongdoing.

Just because you don't like the answer you're getting does not invalidate the answer.

Quote:
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Suppose he's called before the Senate to give testimony. He may think it's a waste of time or a distraction, but that's not his call to make, it's the Senate's. Why should he resist a call from his government to testify when, if he's done nothing wrong, his testimony won't hurt him at all?
The hell his testimony won't hurt him.

The mere fact he showed up to testify will be used against him in the election - if he didn't do anything wrong why would he "need" to testify, hmm? Rather like the sort of people who assume anyone arrested MUST have done something wrong because innocent people don't get arrested, right? Police never make mistakes, right? Right?

That, and the call for him to testify is entirely politically motivated.

Turn it around - if Trump has nothing to hide why did he forbid members of his staff from appearing before the House to ask questions? If he has nothing to hide why is he hiding?

And YES, IT IS VERY MUCH A DISTRACTION to call Biden to testify. The Republicans will try to turn Trump's trial into a trial against Biden. If they're so damn sure Biden (either one) did something wrong why the hell aren't they taking it to the court system? (Answer: because any competent judge will laugh them out of court).
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Old 12-29-2019, 07:12 AM
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The Bidens have nothing to do with the charges.
That's factually incorrect. Joe Biden's name is in the impeachment bill.

Quote:
President Trump—acting both directly and through his agents within and outside the United States Government—corruptly solicited the Government of Ukraine to publicly announce investigations into—

(A) a political opponent, former Vice President Joseph R. Biden, Jr.;
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...ution/755/text

A central question is if Trump's solicitation was corrupt or legitimate. If Trump's defence is that the was solicitation legitimate, then showing that Hunter Biden was acting corruptly and that Joe Biden was facilitating his son's corrupt acts, supports that defence. Of course this hypothetical defence falls apart if there was no corruption on the Bidens' behalf. So if Joe Biden has nothing to hide, then why wouldn't he seek to discredit a political opponent by testifying that his reasons that he "corruptly solicited the Government of Ukraine" were rubbish?
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Old 12-29-2019, 07:29 AM
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Yes. You're asking about Trump. The answer is that calling Biden before the senate is a tactic to distract from Trump's wrongdoing.

Just because you don't like the answer you're getting does not invalidate the answer.


The hell his testimony won't hurt him.

The mere fact he showed up to testify will be used against him in the election - if he didn't do anything wrong why would he "need" to testify, hmm? Rather like the sort of people who assume anyone arrested MUST have done something wrong because innocent people don't get arrested, right? Police never make mistakes, right? Right?

That, and the call for him to testify is entirely politically motivated.

Turn it around - if Trump has nothing to hide why did he forbid members of his staff from appearing before the House to ask questions? If he has nothing to hide why is he hiding?

And YES, IT IS VERY MUCH A DISTRACTION to call Biden to testify. The Republicans will try to turn Trump's trial into a trial against Biden. If they're so damn sure Biden (either one) did something wrong why the hell aren't they taking it to the court system? (Answer: because any competent judge will laugh them out of court).
No, I'm asking about Biden. It's right there in the thread title. Biden, the Democrats, and your assertion is that Biden shouldn't testify because it will be a distraction. Furthermore, Biden is saying he has nothing to hide. What's so distracting about Biden saying he did nothing?

You think it will hurt his future campaign. I think it will help his campaign if Biden is innocent, proclaims his innocence, and answers those questioning his innocence. Of course, that's a big if.
  #17  
Old 12-29-2019, 07:36 AM
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Did Biden ask the President of another country to investigate an American citizen for him?
No.
Should he be called to testify? No. He had nothing to do with Trump's un-American activities. Trump did that.
Seriously, the childish logic of Republicans in congress is shameful and pathetic.
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Old 12-29-2019, 07:41 AM
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... The Bidens have nothing to do with the charges. That's all there is to it.
That is 100% correct.

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Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
That's factually incorrect. Joe Biden's name is in the impeachment bill.
...
Is this the "he made me do it" ploy?? "Childish" was right.
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Old 12-29-2019, 07:46 AM
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Of course Biden shouldn't be called to testify, because any testimony he could give would be completely irrelevant. But that's not the question here.

Because, of course the Republicans will call him to testify, anyway.

The question is, given that the Republicans will call him to testify, what should Biden do?

If Biden says "I'm refusing to testify because my testimony is irrelevant", then every Republican ever called to testify will use that exact same excuse, even though it doesn't apply to them.

What he needs to do is to show up, and then to answer every question with "My testimony is irrelevant to that question", or "That question is irrelevant to the issue at trial here".
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Old 12-29-2019, 08:37 AM
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That is 100% correct. Is this the "he made me do it" ploy?? "Childish" was right.
Let's look at what you're disputing:
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Originally Posted by galen ubal View Post
... The Bidens have nothing to do with the charges. That's all there is to it.

Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
That's factually incorrect. Joe Biden's name is in the impeachment bill.
You're saying that Joe Biden has nothing to do with the impeachment charge, even though his name is contained in the impeachment charge. If someone's name is included in a document, that document has something to do about them. The House bill of impeachment is the document that mentions the solicitation of an investigation into Joe Biden and alleges the solicitation was corrupt. The Senate has every right to further examine that allegation. Beyond that, it will likely come down to how Trump wishes to defend the articles of impeachment. If his defence is that the investigation of Hunter and Joe Biden was a legitimate use of executive power, then it's appropriate for the Senate to examine that defence. Which means they have a right to call for Biden's testimony.

And again, if he's called before the Senate and he's got nothing to hide, why should he resist testifying? Is he afraid that being grilled by mean Republican senators will create bad optics? If he's got nothing to testify about, then there will be no negative impact to him. Instead, he'll be able to say that he did the honourable thing and stood up before Congress.
  #21  
Old 12-29-2019, 08:40 AM
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Of course Biden shouldn't be called to testify, because any testimony he could give would be completely irrelevant. But that's not the question here.

Because, of course the Republicans will call him to testify, anyway.

The question is, given that the Republicans will call him to testify, what should Biden do?

If Biden says "I'm refusing to testify because my testimony is irrelevant", then every Republican ever called to testify will use that exact same excuse, even though it doesn't apply to them.

What he needs to do is to show up, and then to answer every question with "My testimony is irrelevant to that question", or "That question is irrelevant to the issue at trial here".
Or maybe Biden should just give honest answers. That's generally what we expect of witnesses, right?
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Old 12-29-2019, 09:01 AM
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If all of the otherwise substantive witnesses showed up and testified, then it would be perfectly normal to call Joe or even Hunter. But they're not. The Democrats shouldn't play that game.

I'd say I'd agree with the Bidens testifying if 45 himself, and Rudy, and all the other witnesses that the White House is stonewalling, show up and personally testify, including examination without limits by the prosecuter (of course, they can answer all questions after conferring with their lawyer and invoking the 5th on pretty much everything, but it still will result in the optics of having to defend themselves). And I'd have them testify after those witnesses because Trump and McConnell are liars.

Heck, maybe you might see some Republican Senators chew out Trump if he gets up on the stand and refuses to answer the questions, even though they would ultimately vote to acquit. I guess how much of an open mic is allowed would depend on the rules of the trial.

Last edited by Ludovic; 12-29-2019 at 09:03 AM.
  #23  
Old 12-29-2019, 09:31 AM
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So, any other witnesses? Bolton, perhaps? Taylor, Vindman, Yavonovich, Sondland? Persons far more directly connected to the question. Any of those?
  #24  
Old 12-29-2019, 09:32 AM
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OP should be more concerned about getting Rudy to testify.

But he’s not.

I wonder why....
  #25  
Old 12-29-2019, 09:53 AM
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Let me put it this way.

Loser Donald has been impeached on two charges;

1) That he attempted to solicit the government of Ukraine to interfere in the 2020 election on his behalf

2) That he misused the powers of the presidency to obstruct Congress' investigation of the first charge

For what reason should Joe Biden be called to testify as to the facts of either of these charges?
If both the Bidens are truly innocent, wouldn't direct testimony to that fact make point #1 even more damaging?

It's astounding to me how so many anti-Trump people in this thread seem bound and determined to help out Trump's defense.
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Old 12-29-2019, 09:59 AM
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Innocent of what? What charge?
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Old 12-29-2019, 10:04 AM
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If the Senate calls witnesses, won't that delay the Absolute Vindication and Total Innocence Ceremony?
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Old 12-29-2019, 10:16 AM
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I realize this isn't a trial, but in a trial the prosecution presents its case first. So I'd suggest the prosecution call its witnesses. If the Senate says no witnesses at all, then it's mute whether Biden appears. If the Senate permits only the witnesses that the Republicans want, then it's time to protest.
  #29  
Old 12-29-2019, 11:04 AM
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Well if Biden testifies in Trumps impeachment, I figure they will call me next to testify for the OJ trial. We have about the same involvement in Trumps impeachment I suppose.
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Old 12-29-2019, 11:40 AM
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What he needs to do is to show up, and then to answer every question with "My testimony is irrelevant to that question", or "That question is irrelevant to the issue at trial here".
So you're advocating Biden should be in contempt of Congress?
  #31  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:11 PM
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If congress would like to subpoena Joe Biden to testify as part of an investigation into something Joe Biden is accused of...I hypothetically, rhetorically wonder why they have not done so.
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Old 12-29-2019, 12:40 PM
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And again, if he's called before the Senate and he's got nothing to hide, why should he resist testifying? Is he afraid that being grilled by mean Republican senators will create bad optics? If he's got nothing to testify about, then there will be no negative impact to him. Instead, he'll be able to say that he did the honourable thing and stood up before Congress.
I imagine that this will be the typical questions he gets.

"Just so I'm sure of the timeline. Was your personally motivated attempt to railroad the worthy Ukrainian prosecutor out, due to his potentially damaging investigations into your son's company before or after, your son got a huge payout from said company for which he was completely unqualified and only got so that based on the influence they expected you to wield on their behalf. Please answer the question, before or after."

Easy to answer and totally non damaging if he has nothing to hide right?

Last edited by Buck Godot; 12-29-2019 at 12:41 PM.
  #33  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:42 PM
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That's factually incorrect. Joe Biden's name is in the impeachment bill.


https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...ution/755/text

A central question is if Trump's solicitation was corrupt or legitimate. If Trump's defence is that the was solicitation legitimate, then showing that Hunter Biden was acting corruptly and that Joe Biden was facilitating his son's corrupt acts, supports that defence. Of course this hypothetical defence falls apart if there was no corruption on the Bidens' behalf. So if Joe Biden has nothing to hide, then why wouldn't he seek to discredit a political opponent by testifying that his reasons that he "corruptly solicited the Government of Ukraine" were rubbish?
So, you expect the Bidens to stand up on the stand and say "yeah - we're corrupt - Trump was perfectly correct to ask Ukraine to announce investigations - he was prevented from doing this with his own intelligence community due to the deep state and Hillary kept killing off the informants"

Fact is - it doesn't matter one bit if Trump is/was correct on this - he abused is office in the manner he went about trying to "investigate" it - he has several agencies with thousands of officers that can (and will) do these investigations if warranted. They clearly are not.
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Old 12-29-2019, 01:38 PM
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Biden, the Democrats, and your assertion is that Biden shouldn't testify because it will be a distraction. Furthermore, Biden is saying he has nothing to hide. What's so distracting about Biden saying he did nothing?
I have nothing to hide. I'm willing to testify just to call the orange fool a bunch of names, remind the Senate that he's been corrupt his whole life, is a terrible businessman, and even to remind them that as of 1995, NO US bank would loan him any more money.

But all those things I mentioned have NOTHING to do with the two impeachment charges about bullying Ukraine and obstructing congress. None of that will address anything in the Senate trial at all. Just like how Biden and his son have nothing to do with the charges.

Last edited by Locrian; 12-29-2019 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 12-29-2019, 01:44 PM
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If congress would like to subpoena Joe Biden to testify as part of an investigation into something Joe Biden is accused of...I hypothetically, rhetorically wonder why they have not done so.
It's like Gertrude Stein's Oakland, California. There's no THERE there.

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  #36  
Old 12-29-2019, 03:07 PM
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Latest word has Joe saying that he would, or course, obey a legal subpoena.

Don't get it, to be honest. Maybe it has something to do with the reported struggle between Il Douche and McConnell, with ID wanting an Exoneration Extravaganza, with speeches, fireworks and half-time show starring Kid Rock and Jon Voight. Darth Turtle wants the Senate to convene at eleven, vote the acquittal at eleven-thirty, and break for lunch.

Maybe it has to do with the fact that witnesses who say he's guilty have already spoken, and those who say he's innocent either won't testify or aren't allowed to. It would be batshit stupid to insist on a big show, so that's what I'm counting on.
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Old 12-29-2019, 03:11 PM
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But if both Joe Biden and Hunter Biden have done nothing wrong, then Joe Biden's testimony will establish that, correct?
No, not necessarily.

Quote:
Why should Joe Biden resist providing honest innocent answers to senators if it's not going to do him any harm and may actually make Trump look worse?
Because of the above - it may not work out that way.

It's a common refrain that "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." But the real world doesn't work like that. First because there may be no unambiguous way to prove your innocence, just a lot of declarations that can add up to folks disbelieving you anyway. Second because lacking such unambiguous evidence( or even if you have some but their is some tiny side point that is arguable )a skilled prosecutor can twist your responses to cast you in the worst light. Worse if you get confused or rattled while on the hot seat and start misspeaking or even worse start flat out getting things wrong and contradicting yourself.

The other point is of course the same as everyone else is making. It's a transparent ploy to distract from the real focus of the hearing, i.e. Trump by taking his leading challenger in the upcoming presidential election and trying to score points or short-circuit his campaign. And since the presidential contest is large measure a personality fight, you can be completely right but still come off as hostile, combative or confused in the hearing and damage your political brand. Even assuming Biden is 100% squeaky clean he has nothing to gain and everything to lose by appearing in the hearing. You never want to get forced on the stand for anything - shit can go sideways even if you're as pure as the driven snow.

Now Biden is going to have to appear if he's called and sure there is the possibility he'll emerge triumphant and all of America will flock to vote for him in the next election. But there is a reason smart medieval rulers avoided pitched battles when they could. Even if the odds are in your favor it is a colossal gamble to stake everything on a venture that could sink you, even if you're in the right.
  #38  
Old 12-29-2019, 03:24 PM
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So you're advocating Biden should be in contempt of Congress?
Your side is not particularly concerned about contempt of Congress. Apparently, that’s a crime that only Democrats are capable of committing.
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Old 12-29-2019, 04:54 PM
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FWIW I think that if Biden is called, he will have to come. And if he is asked a misleading question as described above, he will answer that he got the corrupt guy fired precisely because they guy wouldn't investigate corruption. I guess they will prevent him from saying that ("Just answer yes or no") but that is what will happen.
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:18 PM
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If Biden is not subpoenaed or asked to appear voluntarily by the Senate he can do whatever he wants. I presume he would not appear voluntarily.

If Biden is subpoenaed to appear by the Senate he can appear, attempt to quash the subpoena in the courts, or refuse to appear without challenging the subpoena in court. ISTM that refusal to appear without a court challenge would be met by Republicans saying that it validates the refusal to testify in the part of various witnesses called by the House who exerted executive privilege. But a court challenge puts him in the unenviable position of arguing that he should be the judge of whether his testimony is relevant. And if he successfully quashes the subpoena any successful arguments would be parroted by those who exerted executive privilege in refusing to testify in the House.

So IMHO the best option Biden has is to wait for a subpoena and to comply with it if it comes. He will not be short of advice on how he should respond to various questions. I am quite certain he can testify without being particularly helpful to the Republican storyline.
  #41  
Old 12-29-2019, 05:23 PM
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Q: Donald Trump, so nice to have you here under oath, did you ask a foreign leader to investigate an American citizen?
A: Ask Joe Biden some questions!
  #42  
Old 12-29-2019, 05:24 PM
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If both the Bidens are truly innocent, wouldn't direct testimony to that fact make point #1 even more damaging?
Neither of the Bidens have been accused of a crime and the purpose of the impeachment trial is not to find them guilty or innocent of anything.
  #43  
Old 12-29-2019, 05:40 PM
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Neither of the Bidens have been accused of a crime and the purpose of the impeachment trial is not to find them guilty or innocent of anything.
Not so fast. I'd like to hear what they know about Hillary's email server and Benghazi. If they deny any knowledge, we'll know they are hiding something.
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  #44  
Old 12-29-2019, 05:40 PM
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The entire reason the Republicans want Biden there is to turn it into a trial of Biden instead of a trial of Trump's conduct as President, which is what they're supposed to be doing.

Not only should Biden not be there, the partisan idiots who proposed this idea should be struck on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and firmly told "No!"
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Nope. He's not the one on trial, Trump is.
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There's no good-faith reason for the Senate to call him.
All of these things are true. But Biden screwed up.

He should have said, "Of course I would testify if I am subpoenaed. I will obey the law."

That would have demonstrated the way Trump and his administration have been trying to defy subpoenas.
  #45  
Old 12-29-2019, 05:49 PM
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All of these things are true. But Biden screwed up.

He should have said, "Of course I would testify if I am subpoenaed. I will obey the law."

That would have demonstrated the way Trump and his administration have been trying to defy subpoenas.
Biden never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
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  #46  
Old 12-29-2019, 05:58 PM
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A central question is if Trump's solicitation was corrupt or legitimate. If Trump's defence is that the was solicitation legitimate, then showing that Hunter Biden was acting corruptly and that Joe Biden was facilitating his son's corrupt acts, supports that defence. Of course this hypothetical defence falls apart if there was no corruption on the Bidens' behalf. So if Joe Biden has nothing to hide, then why wouldn't he seek to discredit a political opponent by testifying that his reasons that he "corruptly solicited the Government of Ukraine" were rubbish?
Because asking the president of a foreign nation to investigate your political opponent is an abuse of power regardless of what that other person may or may not have done..

It is NOT about either Biden's actions, it is about Trump's actions. Asking a foreign government to investigate your political opponent is wrong. Attempting to coerce that government to investigate a political opponent by withholding aid is also wrong. They are both an abuse of power.

If Trump believes Biden (either one) did something wrong the correct course of action is to ask the FBI or other appropriate American law enforcement agency to investigate.
  #47  
Old 12-29-2019, 06:04 PM
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No, I'm asking about Biden. It's right there in the thread title. Biden, the Democrats, and your assertion is that Biden shouldn't testify because it will be a distraction. Furthermore, Biden is saying he has nothing to hide. What's so distracting about Biden saying he did nothing?
Wrenching Spanners, have you stopped beating your wife yet? Answer yes or no. You have nothing to hide, right?

It is not Biden on trial, it is Trump. It was wrong of Trump to ask a foreign government to investigate an American citizen. It was also wrong with withhold aid appropriated by Congress for that nation in order to coerce their president to announce an investigation. THAT is what is on trial, not what Biden may or may not have done. Even if Biden was the devil himself and doing horrible things it would be irrelevant to Trump's impeachment because Trump's guilt or innocence is based on whether or not what Trump did was wrong (which it was) and not what Biden did or didn't do.

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You think it will hurt his future campaign. I think it will help his campaign if Biden is innocent, proclaims his innocence, and answers those questioning his innocence. Of course, that's a big if.
Again - Trump is on trial, not Biden.

And it's not a "big if" - there is ZERO evidence of any wrong-doing on either Biden's part here, outside of Trump's twitter account.

The Republicans want to make this about Biden because they know Trump is guilty as sin. The impeachment is about Trump and Trump alone.
  #48  
Old 12-29-2019, 06:07 PM
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Because asking the president of a foreign nation to investigate your political opponent is an abuse of power regardless of what that other person may or may not have done..

It is NOT about either Biden's actions, it is about Trump's actions. Asking a foreign government to investigate your political opponent is wrong. Attempting to coerce that government to investigate a political opponent by withholding aid is also wrong. They are both an abuse of power.

If Trump believes Biden (either one) did something wrong the correct course of action is to ask the FBI or other appropriate American law enforcement agency to investigate.
Isn't it amazing how simply true this is, and at the same time it is so utterly not understood? It makes me want to smack my own self in the forehead.
  #49  
Old 12-29-2019, 06:08 PM
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If Biden has nothing to hide, then he should welcome the chance to testify before the Senate and be exonerated, correct?
Exonerated of what charge in what legal proceeding in what venue in what jurisdiction, exactly?

Answer that and I'll tell you what Biden should welcome.

Actually, no, I'll save you the time. Trump should subpoena Biden for whatever bullshit he pleases. Biden should challenge the subpoena in court, for the obvious bullshit that it is, which delays the impeachment trial ever closer to the election, and toward that date in June when SCOTUS says Trump can no longer hide his finances from Congress.

Truly a genius move on Trump's part. Bring on the subpoenas. Do it today.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 12-29-2019 at 06:09 PM.
  #50  
Old 12-29-2019, 06:11 PM
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The House bill of impeachment is the document that mentions the solicitation of an investigation into Joe Biden and alleges the solicitation was corrupt. The Senate has every right to further examine that allegation.
Yes, they have every right to invesitage whether or not Trump committed the actions for which he was impeached. This is NOT, however, about determining anything about Biden's actions.

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Beyond that, it will likely come down to how Trump wishes to defend the articles of impeachment. If his defence is that the investigation of Hunter and Joe Biden was a legitimate use of executive power, then it's appropriate for the Senate to examine that defence.
It's not. Asking another government to interfere in US matters is not a legitimate use of executive powers.

If it is deemed to be legitimate then our democracy is over.

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Which means they have a right to call for Biden's testimony.
No, it doesn't, because this isn't about what Biden might or might not have done, it's about what TRUMP did. TRUMP's actions and no one else's.

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And again, if he's called before the Senate and he's got nothing to hide, why should he resist testifying? Is he afraid that being grilled by mean Republican senators will create bad optics?
No, it's because he's irrelevant to whether or not what TRUMP did was ethical/legal/appropriate or not.

But the Republicans desperately want this to be about anyone other than Trump.
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