Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 01-06-2020, 02:03 PM
DrDeth is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 43,266
I had two friends who were VERY Liberal , but were avid gun owners, and now are reactionary single issue gun voters.
  #52  
Old 01-06-2020, 02:07 PM
kanicbird is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 19,895
Funny rosecolloredboy I went from hard right to supporting Love, which allinges with many leftist stances, but not totally for many of the reasons you said you went right. I thought God's side was on the right till God showed me no, most of that was deception, Love and God's Kingdom, based on Love and Grace, not on rules and laws, is the way Jesus taught. My views which I thought were God's way when I was far right I repented of, and God had revealed to me wonders beyond what I could have thought back then. Even what we consider a very religious issue abortion, God has handled and never given us a choice aa God has taken the ability to harm the unborn out of our hands. I consider what a religious rat bastard when I got a woman to repent of murder of her aborted child, instead of embracing her for the hard circumstances and decision she made. Instead of sharing the love of God, I expressed the condemnation of the pharisees. Thank god God showed me His way.

As for Capitalism, it doesn't have such a good reputation in its pure form, Well there are the rich and powerful who enjoy the fruits, and then the workers who do little more then enslave themselves to participate. Communism is also a extreme end, perhaps socialism which is working in places in Europe and we can see some much better results then the limited socialism we have in the US's more capitalistic system, particularly in things like healthcare, may of the european systems are both higher quality and cost less than the US equivalent. Traveling outside the US broke the lie that the US system is so good, it's comparatively really not, but you won't hear that much inside the US. It's like the lie everyone keeps telling each other to keep the lie going.

Also I don't see many saying we have to de-industrialize, except the right is accusing the left, but that is a strawman. The left in general want to live more harmoniously with out environment and to find solutions so we can maintain and increase our standards of life by finding ways to work with our environment in preserving it instead of exploiting it. So really that is a strawman.

You also put up a strawman about virtue. I think many believe there are classes of people who unfairly suffer disadvantage, and actions to correct it should eliminate disadvantage, not to give them a advantage, but yes in practice there are advantages given out and disadvantages that still persist.
  #53  
Old 01-06-2020, 02:14 PM
DrDeth is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 43,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosecoloredboy View Post
...
... I realize my cigarette smoking is wrong too, because of the damage it does to my health and the irritation it causes others (although I try my best not to smoke near non-smokers), but I am planning to quit soon....
Smokers murder 50000 non smokers a year in the USA, mostly children and older people. Think about that.
  #54  
Old 01-06-2020, 02:26 PM
drachillix is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: 192.168.0.1
Posts: 10,025
I come from a very hyper conservative MAGA family and I was always the "tree hugging liberal" of the bunch to my family. Even then I would have been regarded as a nazi bootlicker by the louder elements of todays left.

Thanks to to the patient and thoughtful commentary board I have wandered far more liberal, but still have a few "distasteful" views to the most progressive types.
__________________
Rumor has it, I fix computers. Sometimes it even works after I fix it...

Last edited by drachillix; 01-06-2020 at 02:27 PM.
  #55  
Old 01-06-2020, 02:53 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosecoloredboy View Post
I think leftists and libertarians, and secular humanists in general are worshipers of self - they see the ultimate goal in life as being maximization of pleasure. That's what I find disturbing spiritually about the New Age movement that's replacing Christianity in this country - it's basically telling people they can be like God, and that they have no master other than themselves. I find this a dangerous mindset because of what I personally believe in.
Given that less religious countries are happier, wealthier, better educated, and safer, while I respect that one can't help what they fear, the data doesn't bear out.

That said, the world doesn't sit still long enough to really say anything about whether what we're doing today will continue to prove out but it's probably better to think of it in these terms:

You try things - sometimes they work, sometimes they don't - now you know and now you can make an informed decisions. We thought it would be a good idea to let women work. Taxes dropped, inequality rose, the crime rate dropped, stay at home wives seem to be more neurotic and unhappy than ones who go out, men are being called out for mistreating women and put to task for it. (Note: The crime rate decline is probably unrelated but, I suspect, people in the past would have expected the crime rate to go up because they wouldn't have a full time parent letting them continue to suckle into their teens.) Overall, outside of the rise in inequality, I'd say it was a good step. Legal marijuana, less so. Vaping... We'll have to see.

But, consider that the conservatives of before wouldn't have let women work, black people marry white people, etc. Fear of change is reasonable. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 01-06-2020 at 02:56 PM.
  #56  
Old 01-06-2020, 04:11 PM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21,023
I was absolutely oblivious to politics when i was young. I saw politics as a "how much government do you want to pay for"
I have probably been moving to the left every year since then.
Of course the far left boundary of what is considered mainstream liberal has moved left a lot faster than me.
Folks like AOC used to never be taken seriously by liberals.
  #57  
Old 01-06-2020, 06:58 PM
DrDeth is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 43,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
....
Folks like AOC used to never be taken seriously by liberals.
George mcGovern.
  #58  
Old 01-06-2020, 07:16 PM
Saintly Loser is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,409
Not so much me, but my father.

Growing up, he was very conservative. He once said that the only presidential vote that he felt completely confident and comfortable casting was his vote for Barry Goldwater in 1964.

Then he was appointed to the federal bench by George H.W. Bush. That turned him surprisingly quickly into a liberal. He'll be voting for Elizabeth Warren in the Democratic primary.
  #59  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:14 PM
Kimstu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 23,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
George mcGovern.
Heck, Nelson Rockefeller. That's right, back in the sixties and seventies even the Republicans had liberal politicians who espoused some of the same policies that modern leftists like AOC are advocating, such as radical environmental and housing reform, pension plans, etc.
  #60  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:23 PM
KidCharlemagne is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,410
I was a Libertarian in my young adulthood, bordering on anarcho-capitalist. The Market For Liberty was my vade mecum. Then one day I realized it's easy to say you don't want to be shackled to the mediocrity of others when you're born white to the upper-middle class and had your college education paid for by your parents. I also realized that many people are just too stupid to make their own decisions so I voted for Bloomberg and cheered his getting rid of big sodas.
  #61  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:53 PM
Face Intentionally Left Blank's Avatar
Face Intentionally Left Blank is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hooterville
Posts: 3,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
I don't need an invisible entity watching and judging everything I do; I'm capable of being nice and respectful without Him.
I think the belief that it is necessary for someone to be watched over at all times, or they will do immoral, even violent things, says volumes about the people who believe it.

It is possible to want to leave the world a better place than you found it without the promise of a reward in the afterlife. To some, the reward is in the doing.
  #62  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:05 PM
Esprise Me is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 230
I'm only 36, so I suppose I've got time to go any number of directions still. But I was at my most conservative when I first became politically aware, and I've been drifting steadily to the left ever since. Like a couple others here have mentioned, I grew up with certain advantages that I took for granted. I worked hard and saw my hard work produce favorable results, so I naively assumed everyone could just do that.

The more I see of the world, the more I learn just how good I've always had it. For example, I was already quite liberal by the time I went to law school, but I still didn't really understand what drew inner-city kids to join gangs. I hadn't given it much thought, and in the back of my mind I guess I assumed it had something to do with wanting to be cool. But then, during an internship, I worked on this case that shook me to my core and still haunts me. A young man was arrested for robbing a liquor store. Because he was a known gang member, he got slapped with a gang enhancement on top of that. But in looking back through his file, I learned the story of how he came to join that gang. As a boy of 12, he'd been sitting on his front stoop playing with his baby sister. A rival gang drove by, and seeing him, assumed he was a member of the gang that controlled his street; apparently he was tall for his age. They shot him. He survived, but no arrests were ever made. The gang he was assumed to be a member of invited him to join, without the usual initiation, since he'd already taken a bullet for them. He accepted. Anyone who wants to tell me they wouldn't have done the same is kindly invited to shove it.

OP, no one thinks virtue is inversely proportional to privilege. You're looking at these issues through a simplistic, even childish lens, of sorting everything into "good" or "bad." The simplest aphorism I can offer to explain the lefties' position on privilege is "with great power comes great responsibility." And you are absolutely judging sex workers and women who have abortions; the least you could do is admit it.
  #63  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:16 PM
Saintly Loser is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
It's been my observation that Christian values seem to be more hostile than non-Christian values.
That certainly hasn't been my observation.

I started out as a liberal, despite my father's conservative leanings, because of the religious eduction I had. Eight years of Catholic elementary school (Gray Nuns of the Sacred Heart), four years of Catholic high school (Jesuits) and one year of Catholic college (Jesuits again).

The Christian values I learned could hardly be described as "hostile."
  #64  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:40 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
As a boy of 12, he'd been sitting on his front stoop playing with his baby sister. A rival gang drove by, and seeing him, assumed he was a member of the gang that controlled his street; apparently he was tall for his age. They shot him. He survived, but no arrests were ever made. The gang he was assumed to be a member of invited him to join, without the usual initiation, since he'd already taken a bullet for them. He accepted. Anyone who wants to tell me they wouldn't have done the same is kindly invited to shove it.
Er...I guess I'll have to shove it.

1) Stupid ass person makes other stupid ass person angry.
2) Because of that, the other stupid ass person shoots me for no reason.
3) Then the original stupid ass person says to me, "Hey, usually, we'd ask you to light your pubes on fire or something to join us." Woohoo. "But, cause I was a stupid ass moron who got you shot for no good reason beyond that I'm a fucking stupid ass moron, I'll let you join my group of friends, for free!"

Yeah, I see the appeal and how, somehow that's supposed to be some sort of gift... I'd be more likely to punch stupid ass person in the face than any other option.

Let's say that I get Cecil real real angry and he punches you. Do you want to be my friend? I won't make you buy me a drink! Does that really make sense, somehow?

Last edited by Sage Rat; 01-06-2020 at 09:43 PM.
  #65  
Old 01-06-2020, 10:09 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Er...I guess I'll have to shove it.

1) Stupid ass person makes other stupid ass person angry.
2) Because of that, the other stupid ass person shoots me for no reason.
3) Then the original stupid ass person says to me, "Hey, usually, we'd ask you to light your pubes on fire or something to join us." Woohoo. "But, cause I was a stupid ass moron who got you shot for no good reason beyond that I'm a fucking stupid ass moron, I'll let you join my group of friends, for free!"

Yeah, I see the appeal and how, somehow that's supposed to be some sort of gift... I'd be more likely to punch stupid ass person in the face than any other option.

Let's say that I get Cecil real real angry and he punches you. Do you want to be my friend? I won't make you buy me a drink! Does that really make sense, somehow?
Do you mind rereading this and telling me if it's really the best possible analysis you can make of the situation? I'm having trouble believing that's true.
  #66  
Old 01-06-2020, 10:09 PM
Esprise Me is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 230
Dude. This is not about fraternity hazing or random "stupid ass" individuals doing nonsensical, unpredictable things in some bizarro world where you're personally sparring with Cecil. This is about an ongoing, mortal threat to a child and his family, against which the police are powerless to protect him, and the one group of people who promise to have his back. But thanks for taking my faith in humanity down a peg; I haven't met many people who wouldn't give a shit about that kid.
  #67  
Old 01-06-2020, 10:51 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Er...I guess I'll have to shove it.

1) Stupid ass person makes other stupid ass person angry.
2) Because of that, the other stupid ass person shoots me for no reason.
3) Then the original stupid ass person says to me, "Hey, usually, we'd ask you to light your pubes on fire or something to join us." Woohoo. "But, cause I was a stupid ass moron who got you shot for no good reason beyond that I'm a fucking stupid ass moron, I'll let you join my group of friends, for free!"
Right.

The police did not protect the kid. Nor his family
The gang offered to give him and family protection.

But but but... Why didn't the kid just get his daddy to call the chief of police huh? Or why didn't the kid just write a letter of complaint to the mayor? Huh? Stupid kid.

Obviously, the kid should have just gotten off his lazy ass and solved the gang problem with a musical number in the local community center.

Jesus. Rarely have I seen a better example of clueless privilege and lack of basic understanding. Congratulations.
  #68  
Old 01-06-2020, 11:05 PM
Wesley Clark is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Hillary Rodham Clinton is a well-known example: She supported Barry Goldwater, but later moved a little to the left. There are other famous examples, though none pops into my head just now.
Elizabeth Warren. Markos Moulitsas (creator of daily kos). Ed Schultz. cenk uygur. Arianna Huffington. David Brock.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #69  
Old 01-06-2020, 11:29 PM
DWMarch is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Nanaimo, BC
Posts: 2,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senegoid View Post
Isn't there an old maxim around, to the effect that if you're not liberal when you're young and conservative when you're middle aged, then there's something wrong with you?

(Anybody know of an origin or any cites for this?)
The great author John Varley (who posted at this board exactly one time back in the day) said in Steel Beach (paraphrasing) "a liberal is a conservative who has just been thrown in jail. A conservative is a liberal who just got mugged." YMMV as to how true you find that but it has always stuck with me.
  #70  
Old 01-06-2020, 11:31 PM
Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 16,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWMarch View Post
The great author John Varley (who posted at this board exactly one time back in the day) said in Steel Beach (paraphrasing) "a liberal is a conservative who has just been thrown in jail. A conservative is a liberal who just got mugged." YMMV as to how true you find that but it has always stuck with me.
After 9/11, when George W. Bush was suddenly lobbying the international community for its assistance in going after al-Qaeda and the Taliban, Newsweek wrote: "if it's true that a conservative is a liberal who's just been mugged, then a liberal internationalist is a conservative whose nation has just been terrorized."
  #71  
Old 01-07-2020, 12:09 AM
lokij is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,024
Me. I grew up in the south, went to Catholic high school and adopted a very libertarian point of view which I held till the presidency of George W Bush. It was during his administration, built on lies and incompetence, that I had a series of revelations that led me to a hard leftward turn. The first is that the incentive of enlightened self interest had very very little actual real world sway with those in power. I had always figured that the wealthy by and large understood they had an obligation to be a good steward of their employees, natural resources they depend on and in general not kill the goose that lays them golden eggs. Then I watched Katrina, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with attendant blatant profiteering and the 2008 financial collapse. These people would sell their own mothers for another zero on their account balances. The second revelation I had is that while the left was often branded wild eyed idealists with no 'common sense' or grounding in how the 'real world' works, over and over it was the right wing that put wishful thinking over good public policy. Against abortion? Excellent, provide comprehensive sexual education and free access to birth control. Those are proven methods that work, but are fought against tooth and nail. Why? Religious convictions not based in facts whatsoever. Against youth violence and the drug trade? Pay for after school programs, free childcare and social services.. it's cheaper than the costs of crime and incarceration Every Single Time. Legalize pot, prohibitions do not work and only pour money into the hands of ruthless and desperate people. The right wants none of those things, just more cops and jails. Don't think the US should be the cops of the world? I agree, let's cut military spending and use that money for other more productive purposes as we spend more than the next 20 countries *combined* and are already very safe thanks to the good fortunes of geography, size and nuclear deterrent. But, no... billions upon billions and never accountability. Right wing policies do not work, it's that simple.
__________________
Proprio Vas Sanguine Pasco
  #72  
Old 01-07-2020, 12:53 AM
Superdude's Avatar
Superdude is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Fortress of Solidude
Posts: 10,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
I'm only 36, so I suppose I've got time to go any number of directions still. But I was at my most conservative when I first became politically aware, and I've been drifting steadily to the left ever since. Like a couple others here have mentioned, I grew up with certain advantages that I took for granted. I worked hard and saw my hard work produce favorable results, so I naively assumed everyone could just do that.

The more I see of the world, the more I learn just how good I've always had it. For example, I was already quite liberal by the time I went to law school, but I still didn't really understand what drew inner-city kids to join gangs. I hadn't given it much thought, and in the back of my mind I guess I assumed it had something to do with wanting to be cool. But then, during an internship, I worked on this case that shook me to my core and still haunts me. A young man was arrested for robbing a liquor store. Because he was a known gang member, he got slapped with a gang enhancement on top of that. But in looking back through his file, I learned the story of how he came to join that gang. As a boy of 12, he'd been sitting on his front stoop playing with his baby sister. A rival gang drove by, and seeing him, assumed he was a member of the gang that controlled his street; apparently he was tall for his age. They shot him. He survived, but no arrests were ever made. The gang he was assumed to be a member of invited him to join, without the usual initiation, since he'd already taken a bullet for them. He accepted. Anyone who wants to tell me they wouldn't have done the same is kindly invited to shove it.

OP, no one thinks virtue is inversely proportional to privilege. You're looking at these issues through a simplistic, even childish lens, of sorting everything into "good" or "bad." The simplest aphorism I can offer to explain the lefties' position on privilege is "with great power comes great responsibility." And you are absolutely judging sex workers and women who have abortions; the least you could do is admit it.
My parents divorced when I was in the 6th grade. The next year, my mother attempted suicide for the first time (I know of at least two other times, as well). My father was one of those macho guys who didn't want his wife to work, so she had no skills to fall back on when they split. She didn't even finish high school because she dropped out to get married.

As a result, I grew up poor. We were on Medicaid and food stamps and lived in government housing. We were in the free lunch and free schoolbook programs.

Because of the lack of skills or education, my mother took a job in a fast food restaurant working third shift. Many times, the only food we had was what she brought home that they were about to throw out. She did all that while trying to get her GED and trying to put three sons through school. None of us ended up dead, drugged out, or in prison, and some of the places we lived very well could have changed that.

She went back to school after getting her GED and became a dental assistant. Within a few years, she'd studied up and became a nurse.

I give her full credit for that. That's an amazing accomplishment. She was also the toughest woman I've ever met. 1999, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. Luckily, only a lumpectomy was needed. She had the surgery, then checked herself out of the hospital against medical advice the next day. She had me drive her to another hospital because her granddaughter was about to be born C-section, and she was not going to miss that. She went home, took the rest of the weekend off, and went back to work the following Monday. She refused to take chemo. During work, she'd go to the hospital and get her radiation treatment, then go back to work (whereas if I go to the store and the bank on the same day, I need a nap).When she died in 2015, it was a heart attack. I think the cancer was afraid to return.

I mention all this because I firmly believe that her struggle is exactly why I'm a liberal. I know what it's like to grow up needing that safety net that welfare can provide. I've experienced the exact reasons that we need to fund programs that are aimed at healthcare and making sure that all kids have the chance to grow up not wondering when they're going to be able to eat again. And making sure that they have their own chances to better their situations to break the cycle of poverty and hunger and illness.

I've lived it. And I don't want any other family to have to go through that. I'm perfectly willing to give a few more bucks to the government so that sick people can get healthcare and a hungry child can know that they're going to have a meal.

My mother used the system the way it's supposed to be used. My family benefitted from it. I don't mind paying it forward so someone else can have a chance, too.
__________________
I can't help being a gorgeous fiend. It's just the card I drew.
  #73  
Old 01-07-2020, 01:02 AM
DrDeth is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 43,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
... But in looking back through his file, I learned the story of how he came to join that gang. As a boy of 12, he'd been sitting on his front stoop playing with his baby sister. A rival gang drove by, and seeing him, assumed he was a member of the gang that controlled his street; apparently he was tall for his age. They shot him. He survived, but no arrests were ever made. The gang he was assumed to be a member of invited him to join, without the usual initiation, since he'd already taken a bullet for them. He accepted. Anyone who wants to tell me they wouldn't have done the same is kindly invited to shove it. ...t.
Why the fuck would you want to join a gang? I guess I have to shove it also.
  #74  
Old 01-07-2020, 01:04 AM
DrDeth is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 43,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
....This is about an ongoing, mortal threat to a child and his family, against which the police are powerless to protect him, and the one group of people who promise to have his back. But thanks for taking my faith in humanity down a peg; I haven't met many people who wouldn't give a shit about that kid.
But- they don't have his back, that's just the point. They send him to fucking prison or get him killed.
  #75  
Old 01-07-2020, 01:06 AM
DrDeth is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 43,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
.
The police did not protect the kid. Nor his family
The gang offered to give him and family protection.
....
Because they can't. That's not their job.

But they didnt, and they can't, that's not what they do either. They commit crimes and get their members sent to prison or get killed. Gangs dont protect shit.
  #76  
Old 01-07-2020, 02:35 AM
RioRico is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: beyond cell service
Posts: 1,377
OP: I supported Goldwater when I started adolescence. Then I grew up.
  #77  
Old 01-07-2020, 02:52 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 20,475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Er...I guess I'll have to shove it.
...
3) Then the original stupid ass person says to me, "Hey, usually, we'd ask you to light your pubes on fire or something to join us." Woohoo....
If we were in the Pit I do not think it would be entirely unreasonable to call this the least-informed post we've seen in weeks — a tough bar to hurdle.

Fortunately Mr. Rat has already been rebuked:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Do you mind rereading this and telling me if it's really the best possible analysis you can make of the situation? I'm having trouble believing that's true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
Dude. ... But thanks for taking my faith in humanity down a peg; I haven't met many people who wouldn't give a shit about that kid.
  #78  
Old 01-07-2020, 07:20 AM
survinga is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: In the Deep South
Posts: 537
I used to be much more conservative than I am now. I believed in trickle-down economics, tax cuts paid for themselves, social safety net programs were only encouraging laziness, unions were all bad, the environmental movement was a bunch of whackos who were hurting business, the Dems were the party of reverse racism, Bush went into Iraq because they had nuclear weapons....you name it, and I fell for it.

The 2008 financial crisis and the Iraq War's results that played out between 2003-2008 made me finally wake up. I voted for Romney in 2012, but by then, I was losing hope in the movement. By 2016, I was completely out of Republican politics and suspicious of any "conservative" candidate. Currently, I consider myself a political moderate. I think government has a place in people's lives where it can help. But I don't want it so large that it constricts the private sector too much, if that makes any sense.

The conservative movement in the US is a fraud. Their economic and most of their social doctrine is a lie. And they have become a cult-of-personality type movement, and have shown themselves to have no principles. I think there could be a serious conservative movement in the US that could offer another way to govern. But it's been hijacked. So, lately my votes have been for Democrats. It will remain that way until further notice.

Last edited by survinga; 01-07-2020 at 07:22 AM.
  #79  
Old 01-07-2020, 07:37 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 20,475
Thank you, survinga. It's too bad that millions of Americans are too stunted intellectually to figure out what you've figured out.
  #80  
Old 01-07-2020, 07:43 AM
Musicat is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Sturgeon Bay, WI USA
Posts: 21,529
I think Pat Paulsen got it right when he said, "I'm not left-wing or right-wing. I'm more or less middle-of-the-bird."
  #81  
Old 01-07-2020, 08:15 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 20,475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
My parents divorced when I was in the 6th grade. The next year, my mother attempted suicide for the first time (I know of at least two other times, as well)... She didn't even finish high school because she dropped out to get married.
... She was also the toughest woman I've ever met.
[off-topic hijack]
Thank you for sharing, Superdude. Your story reminded me of my own mother, though details vary. It was while she was still married to abusive husband that she attempted suicide multiple times. Politics might have been part of the problem: Dad was moving toward right-wing racism, while Mom was marching with César Chávez and volunteering at health clinics for braceros, etc. (She brought me along to mop the floors.)

She never experienced severe poverty — by the time Dad found a judge to lower his alimony, I was earning enough to help out. And she didn't ever finish the college program marriage had interrupted. But she did graduate from rehab to become a renowned alcohol and drug treatment counselor herself, even writing a book. She was so admired that her employer practically insisted she keep working in her 70's. She was my best friend and the person I admire most.

Sometimes in her old age I would visit her on Sunday, and she and I would go to an outdoor cafe in town center to drink chai and listen to music. We'd often run into someone (usually an ex-junkie) delighted to see her; almost invariably the person would tell me that my mother had saved his or her life.
  #82  
Old 01-07-2020, 08:52 AM
gytalf2000 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 3,518
I was slightly conservative during my college years (1979-1983), though nowhere near as conservative as most of my peers. (I went to a very conservative fundamentalist college -- David Lipscomb in Nashville, Tennessee).

My views begin changing during grad school at Vanderbilt. The more widely I read, the less sense conservative viewpoints seemed to have. Now I am 59, and fairly liberal in most respects.
  #83  
Old 01-07-2020, 11:03 AM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 42,068
I used to usually vote for whatever conservative party was up (Canada's had some name changes.) Now I don't.

I personally haven't changed that much - I am a bit more liberal on some issues, still conservative on others. But the conservative movement in general, here and really throughout the Western world, has lurched into brainless populism and proto-fascism and I have no time for either.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #84  
Old 01-07-2020, 11:13 AM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Because they can't. That's not their job.

But they didnt, and they can't, that's not what they do either. They commit crimes and get their members sent to prison or get killed. Gangs dont protect shit.
Ah right. I forgot the motto:

To Serve and Protect1
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
1. Protect Rich people, that is. If poor people are shot at - tough luck buddy
  #85  
Old 01-07-2020, 11:17 AM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,672
I always thought that one of the functions of police was to investigate shootings, find who was responsible and send evidence to a prosecutor. Boy is my face red!
  #86  
Old 01-07-2020, 11:21 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,992
I suspect DrDeth plans to die on the hill of "but they can't be sued for not protecting any individual person," or some similar nonsense.

It's pretty well-known that a lot of kids who join gangs do so as a risk-mitigation strategy. Joining a gang earns you powerful enemies--but it also gets you some powerful friends. If you're getting the enemies without joining the gang (i.e., you're getting shot at even though you never joined), joining in order to gain those powerful friends can be a rational survival strategy.
  #87  
Old 01-07-2020, 01:16 PM
DrDeth is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 43,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
I always thought that one of the functions of police was to investigate shootings, find who was responsible and send evidence to a prosecutor. Boy is my face red!
Yes- investigate. But they are not there to stand guard over you. And it's very hard to investigate shootings when all the witnesses refuse to "snitch".

The police are there to protect society or the community, not just one person.
  #88  
Old 01-07-2020, 01:26 PM
DrDeth is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 43,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post

It's pretty well-known that a lot of kids who join gangs do so as a risk-mitigation strategy. Joining a gang earns you powerful enemies--but it also gets you some powerful friends. If you're getting the enemies without joining the gang (i.e., you're getting shot at even though you never joined), joining in order to gain those powerful friends can be a rational survival strategy.
I refuse to accept that the "only way" for a youth in a bad neighborhood is to join a criminal gang which very often leads to deaths or incarceration.

And yes, that kid had been shot- but by accident. After joining a gang he was in high danger of being shot- on purpose.

I dont see how joining the gang reduced his risk, especially since Esprise Me "A young man was arrested for robbing a liquor store. Because he was a known gang member, he got slapped with a gang enhancement on top of that." so basically he went to prison for a long time- because he joined a gang. I dont see that as "protection".
  #89  
Old 01-07-2020, 01:28 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
I suspect DrDeth plans to die on the hill of "but they can't be sued for not protecting any individual person," or some similar nonsense.
Aaaand.....

You absolutely nailed it. Well done. This is not your first rodeo I see.
  #90  
Old 01-07-2020, 01:41 PM
DrDeth is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 43,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
I suspect DrDeth plans to die on the hill of "but they can't be sued for not protecting any individual person," or some similar nonsense.
.
Tell me Left Hand of Dorkness, exactly how is the Police force supposed to "protect' someone from a accidental drive by shooting?


Let us even assume they catch and convict the guy who did it. How does that ensure no other accidental drive by shooting will ever occur?

And what is the chance of a kid being accidentally targeted twice?
  #91  
Old 01-07-2020, 01:45 PM
Buck Godot's Avatar
Buck Godot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: MD outside DC
Posts: 6,220
nm

Last edited by Buck Godot; 01-07-2020 at 01:47 PM.
  #92  
Old 01-07-2020, 01:52 PM
Brayne Ded is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isamu View Post
I was conservative when young because my parents were conservative. I guess I just figured they knew what was best. I changed over my early 20s as I became exposed to more and more people who weren't getting the help they needed, or not getting it until it was too late. I swing left except in fashion where its right-wing all the way.
Same here. Put it down to more life experience and a growing realization of the sheer BS of the establishment.
  #93  
Old 01-07-2020, 02:29 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 36,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
I refuse to accept that the "only way" for a youth in a bad neighborhood is to join a criminal gang which very often leads to deaths or incarceration.
Until you walk a mile in their shoes, you can't know what decisions make sense and don't make sense in those circumstances. These are just human beings. If decent humans are in desperate enough circumstances, they might resort to desperate things, like joining a gang. This is as true in America as it is anywhere else. Desperate humans do desperate things. Unfortunately, there are a lot of desperate human children in the US. Some of them are going to do things that seem irrational or unreasonable to comfortable folks like us.

Once you just decide to accept that most of these folks are just regular humans, things like this start to make a lot more sense. These aren't moral superhumans, always taking the perfectly morally correct action no matter their circumstances. Just regular people, with regular capabilities and regular endurance and moral fiber.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 01-07-2020 at 02:30 PM.
  #94  
Old 01-07-2020, 02:43 PM
DrDeth is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 43,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Until you walk a mile in their shoes, you can't know what decisions make sense and don't make sense in those circumstances. These are just human beings. If decent humans are in desperate enough circumstances, they might resort to desperate things, like joining a gang. This is as true in America as it is anywhere else. Desperate humans do desperate things. Unfortunately, there are a lot of desperate human children in the US. Some of them are going to do things that seem irrational or unreasonable to comfortable folks like us.
.
Sure, desperate people make bad choices, I understand this. I was a Federal Agent for 20 years, I understand this more than most. And gawd knows poor people in the ghettos are sadly faced with more desperate choices than many other Americans.

But what was pushed here is that this desperate bad choice was actually a good choice.

Now- do I blame the kid for making this bad, desperate choice? No. I understand why he made that choice. But it wasnt his only choice and it was- as we have seen- a very bad choice.
  #95  
Old 01-07-2020, 03:07 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 36,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Sure, desperate people make bad choices, I understand this. I was a Federal Agent for 20 years, I understand this more than most. And gawd knows poor people in the ghettos are sadly faced with more desperate choices than many other Americans.

But what was pushed here is that this desperate bad choice was actually a good choice.

Now- do I blame the kid for making this bad, desperate choice? No. I understand why he made that choice. But it wasnt his only choice and it was- as we have seen- a very bad choice.
Sometimes there are no good choices, only bad ones. Desperate circumstances really can call for desperate measures. Sucks, but that's the real world sometimes.
  #96  
Old 01-07-2020, 03:33 PM
thorny locust's Avatar
thorny locust is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Because they can't. That's not their job.
It's not the job of the police to protect the public?

News to me.
  #97  
Old 01-07-2020, 03:41 PM
Wesley Clark is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
It's not the job of the police to protect the public?

News to me.
Its the job of the police to enforce the law. Ideally there is a lot of overlap between this and helping/protecting the public, but not always.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #98  
Old 01-07-2020, 03:54 PM
thorny locust's Avatar
thorny locust is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Its the job of the police to enforce the law. Ideally there is a lot of overlap between this and helping/protecting the public, but not always.
True. But in the example given the law to be enforced would be 'don't shoot people, except possibly in immediate self-defense'. Admittedly the details of this are going to be in the form of multiple laws and more complicated language; but the overlap with protecting the public ought to be pretty good.

It's unfortunately possible that the police in a given area and set of circumstances may be unable to enforce the law and therefore unable to protect the public. But that doesn't mean that it isn't their job.
  #99  
Old 01-07-2020, 04:05 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
It's not the job of the police to protect the public?

News to me.
They'll investigate crimes that happen to the public, sure.

Just not to this particular guy. That's OK. 'cause he's just one guy.

This is logical to some people.
  #100  
Old 01-07-2020, 05:57 PM
DrDeth is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 43,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
It's not the job of the police to protect the public?

News to me.
Yes, it is the job of the police to protect the public. They do this by arresting bad guys and doing patrols. They wont take one kid, wrap him in a bulletproof vest and stand guard over him 24/7/365 until he grows up.

So- not any one individual. If you call the police and ask they put a patrol car out in front of your house as you have received a threat, they will rarely comply.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:03 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017