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  #51  
Old 01-07-2020, 08:35 PM
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No matter what, Iran has more to lose. The worst thing that could possibly happen to Trump is that he loses the election or gets removed from office.
And faces criminal prosecution and the loss of his criminal enterprise. That's why he "jokes" about a third term.

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The U.S. will just plod on with a new administration. Its economy, military, everything is vastly larger than Iran's.
The US is becoming an oligarchy with fewer and fewer people having disproportionate input over decisions that impact that "national" interest. Whoever is making the decisions has disproportionate influence, and risk getting blamed for disproportionate consequences of failure. I would not simply assume that the power brokers in the US will simply 'plod on.'

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Iran on the other hand is already facing major economic contraction and its leaders would be in serious trouble - maybe life-threatening trouble - if they are perceived as weak on this.
They've been facing contraction for some time now. What they're up against now in 2020 is a threat to the regime and the country itself.
  #52  
Old 01-07-2020, 09:06 PM
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No fooling. The only way to believe is to have no sense of perspective at all. There have been so many predictions of the end of the world that I've toyed with the idea of a library of the apocalypse. Because up until recently, everyone who wanted their prediction to be taken seriously wrote a book about it. I've found lists of such books online. I think if I ever won a big lottery, I'd take a shot at collecting them all. Well, pay someone to take a shot at it.

Until then, Wikipedia has a list of predictions. My favorite on the list is Cotton Mather, mostly because he had to reset the date twice and wasn't afraid to do that.

He died in 1728. I'd like to think that if he'd lived another ten years, he'd have made a fourth prediction.
I definitely remember this book; interesting that it's sold out. Never read it, either.

https://www.amazon.com/reasons-Why-R...2&sr=8-1-fkmr1
  #53  
Old 01-07-2020, 11:16 PM
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...The US is becoming an oligarchy with fewer and fewer people having disproportionate input over decisions that impact that "national" interest. Whoever is making the decisions has disproportionate influence, and risk getting blamed for disproportionate consequences of failure. I would not simply assume that the power brokers in the US will simply 'plod on...
I think if there ever was any doubt that we are in decline, recent events have put it to rest. The religious fanatics and oligarchs of America are picking a war with Iran and we're just going to let it happen; in fact, there is no real mechanism for preventing it from happening. He has been impeached but his party and his base simply do not care, you can't really maintain a republic when 42% of the people in it do not value rule of law and democracy. Where I think the oligarchs have miscalculated is in their belief that they can control Trump, he's an idiot and his government is surrounded by members of a doomsday cult who want to hasten the end of the world.
  #54  
Old 01-08-2020, 07:29 PM
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Just dropping in to let y'all know that I've been busy with life things and will answer some questions when I can.
  #55  
Old 01-09-2020, 12:27 AM
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Just dropping in to let y'all know that I've been busy with life things and will answer some questions when I can.
How did the tweeting and golf things go?
  #56  
Old 01-09-2020, 06:27 AM
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I don't think Trump is the AntiChrist
I don't think Trump is the antichrist because the antichrist is fucking made up, even within fricking Christian tradition. The Bible talks about antichrists, i.e. people trying to suppress the faith, or simply do not believe. As in Roman officials.
They been dead, in case you haven't been keeping up with events.

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Originally Posted by RTFirefly
Besides being the first recorded instance of Endtimes Fail
Yeah, long damn hour, innit ?
  #57  
Old 01-10-2020, 03:18 PM
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Out of all of that, I'm most intrigued by the choice of a Swiss Army Knife as a bookmark.

What a strange choice.

Assuming he didn't jab the blade into the pages, a closed swiss army knife has a pretty smooth surface and an awkward shape. It's very likely to slide out of a book. Did he have NOTHING in his office that would have worked better?

Did he intentionally choose a weird bookmark so the reporter would notice and mention it?
  #58  
Old 01-10-2020, 03:27 PM
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Who knew bookmarks could be so complicated?
  #59  
Old 01-10-2020, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by apLundell View Post
Out of all of that, I'm most intrigued by the choice of a Swiss Army Knife as a bookmark.

What a strange choice.

Assuming he didn't jab the blade into the pages, a closed swiss army knife has a pretty smooth surface and an awkward shape. It's very likely to slide out of a book. Did he have NOTHING in his office that would have worked better?

Did he intentionally choose a weird bookmark so the reporter would notice and mention it?
Well in all fairness the horcruxes were under that one wobbly leg of his desk, propping open a window, and holding down that stack of declarations of war he's been meaning to get to.
  #60  
Old 01-10-2020, 05:19 PM
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How did the tweeting and golf things go?
I'm afraid you've mistaken me for another old, fat, crazy guy. I neither tweet nor golf.

All of my research is in my other tablet, which is rebellious at the moment.
  #61  
Old 01-11-2020, 05:36 PM
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Who knew bookmarks could be so complicated?
At least it's not a Quran bookmark. I'm not having any luck looking for mention of bookmarks in the Quran. Maybe they're too complicated.

An antichrist is one whose teachings are counter to the christ's. Like Saul / Paul.
  #62  
Old 01-12-2020, 01:05 AM
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Huge differences separate Donald Trump from the prophesied Antichrist. But most of us don't believe in prophesies much anyway. One thing is clear: this oaf has already done huge damage. Many decades from now, people may point to him when they lament the Decline and Fall of America.

In comparing Trump with other Antichrists, real or imagined, the following quote might work well, with a few words changed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Marx

Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.
  #63  
Old 01-12-2020, 08:34 PM
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I don't see Trump as an Antichrist, but is the embodiment of the 7 deadly sins.


The real bad thing IMHO is how many in the religious right are ignoring the gross hypocrisy in continuing to support someone like Trump.

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...than-atheists/
Quote:
A Republican who served under Presidents Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and George W. Bush says the white evangelicals who support Donald Trump do far more damage to Christianity than atheists ever could.

He’s right. (Also, I’m insulted.)

Peter Wehner made a similar statement in a New York Times essay in 2017, but his comments to CNN’s Michael Smerconish yesterday were even more blunt.

Quote:
… I think it’s been tremendously discrediting to the Christian faith. And I think it’s shown to a watching world a tremendous amount of hypocrisy. After all, this “character counts” and “personal integrity” and “political leadership” was central to what a lot of… evangelicals argued when Bill Clinton was president. And now that it’s Donald Trump, they’ve decided to push that aside, which means that morality for them was a means to an end, not an end. It was something to be used as a political weapon.

… I think a lot of these white evangelical leaders are doing more to hurt Christianity than the so-called New Atheists ever could.
There’s a lot of truth to that last statement. No arguments against the logical incoherence of Christian beliefs are as powerful as seeing the hypocrisy with your own eyes. When you see refugees in cages, an administration mired in scandals, a president who paid his mistresses hush money, and Republican leadership that is so quick to brag about their Christian faith but silent every time Trump is racist or sexist or otherwise cruel, it’s easy to think that evangelical Christianity is devoid of morality.

I certainly appreciate any conservative will to admit the obvious — and to do it publicly.
  #64  
Old 01-13-2020, 06:41 AM
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Do you have a cite that Mike Pompeo believes that Trump is the anti-Christ, or that he believes that we are currently in the End Times?
I can't tell if you're Just Asking Questions or really don't know this, but Mike Pompeo's stated belief in Rapture eschatology is well known, and he alluded to it explicitly in a public rally back in 2015.

Exactly where Pompeo believes we are at the moment in this eschatological timeline I don't know.
  #65  
Old 01-13-2020, 10:09 AM
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So you don't have a cite. That's kind of obvious, and also my point.

Regards,
Shodan
  #66  
Old 01-13-2020, 10:51 AM
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So you don't have a cite. That's kind of obvious, and also my point.

Regards,
Shodan
He just posted a cite. Sorry you ignored it.
  #67  
Old 01-13-2020, 11:23 AM
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She, I believe.

Do you have such a cite?

Regards,
Shodan
  #68  
Old 01-13-2020, 11:28 AM
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She, I believe.

Do you have such a cite?

Regards,
Shodan
Why are you ignoring the one already posted?

Regards,
Happy
  #69  
Old 01-13-2020, 11:56 AM
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Ok, let's review the bidding on the latest Shodan vs everyone contretemps.

The OP used a quote from the NY times that said:
Quote:
Both Mike Pompeo and Mike Pence who have pushed Trump towards aggressive action towards Iran believe that there is a battle between good and evil that will end with “the Rapture”. A key belief of the evangelical Christian extremists is the establishment of a “greater Israel” before the end of days.
Afterwards RTFirefly posted a response wondering why Pompeo thinks that way:

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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
I've been a born-again Christian since the fall of 1970, back in the "Late Great Planet Earth" days.

Needless to say, I've seen prospective End Times come and go. After awhile, if you've got a functioning brain, you look and see all those other times that were supposedly about to be the End Times, and you think, "there's nothing particularly special about this time either, why would anyone who's been around the block a couple of times believe that this time is really going to be the End Times?"

Mike Pompeo is 56 years old. That's a bit too old for falling for this shit. He shouldn't be trusted with the car keys, let alone have a substantial role in government.
Shodan, instead of referencing the NY times 'opinion' and questioning it, attributes a position to RTFirefly that he manifestly did not make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Do you have a cite that Mike Pompeo believes that Trump is the anti-Christ, or that he believes that we are currently in the End Times?

Or that he had the Iranian general whacked because of a Swiss Army knife pointing to the book of Esther, or pretty much anything else claimed in the thread.

Regards,
Shodan
Kimstu responds with evidence that Pompeo is a believer in the "Rapture" and provides additional evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
I can't tell if you're Just Asking Questions or really don't know this, but Mike Pompeo's stated belief in Rapture eschatology is well known, and he alluded to it explicitly in a public rally back in 2015.

Exactly where Pompeo believes we are at the moment in this eschatological timeline I don't know.
Shodan continues to argue about a cite for Trump being the Anti-Christ, a point neither RTFirefly or Kimstu maintained in their posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
So you don't have a cite. That's kind of obvious, and also my point.

Regards,
Shodan
My conclusion (FWIW) is that Shodan started an argument, but with the wrong people and on false pretenses, attributing views not in evidence from the two people he engaged.

IMHO as always. YMMV
  #70  
Old 01-13-2020, 12:40 PM
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OK, at least we have established that this -
Quote:
Trump is the Antichrist to some people, and it's okay with them
isn't true, or at least nobody has been cited who fits that description. Certainly not Mike Pompeo.

Further, the NYT opinion writer alleges that Pompeo is hostile to Iran, and offers as his evidence that he allegedly saw a Swiss Army knife pointing to a passage in the book of Esther. The book of Esther doesn't mention the end times, nor the anti-Christ, nor Trump, nor even God. I don't consider that to be good evidence. So, could we get a cite that Pompeo's hostility to Iran is based on Esther, rather than, for instance, Iran's state sponsorship of terrorism, their efforts to develop a nuclear bomb, their killing of Americans, their unfortunate habit of chanting "death to America", etc., etc.?

Regards,
Shodan
  #71  
Old 01-13-2020, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post

Further, the NYT opinion writer alleges that Pompeo is hostile to Iran, and offers as his evidence that he allegedly saw a Swiss Army knife pointing to a passage in the book of Esther. The book of Esther doesn't mention the end times, nor the anti-Christ, nor Trump, nor even God. I don't consider that to be good evidence. So, could we get a cite that Pompeo's hostility to Iran is based on Esther, rather than, for instance, Iran's state sponsorship of terrorism, their efforts to develop a nuclear bomb, their killing of Americans, their unfortunate habit of chanting "death to America", etc., etc.?

Regards,
Shodan
Perhaps CBN is more to your liking, start at the 1:40 mark. Read that question back, and Pompeo's answer.

Well there is a Hebrew letter that looks just like that, a Swiss Army Knife. So maybe Pompeo uses that for some kind of a of symbolic inspiration and evangelical support for Israel, hell if I know.

But using a Swiss Army knife to mark a page in Ester shouldn't be the thing one is the most concerned about. The craziness of fundamentalists and evangelicals and the shit they read in holy works that inspires them should be.
  #72  
Old 01-13-2020, 01:17 PM
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I don't know about you guys, but knowing that one of the most powerful guys on the planet is drawing his cues from endtimes gobbledigook ; and not only that but is trying to get the end times GOING is kind of freaking me right the fuck out.
  #73  
Old 01-13-2020, 03:49 PM
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OK, at least we have established that this - isn't true, or at least nobody has been cited who fits that description. Certainly not Mike Pompeo.
Right wing religious folks love to interpret this sort of stuff and speculate who is the AntiChrist. A quick search on Amazon produced these works that think Trump is just that. Who knows, maybe Pompeo plays a role, but you gotta be careful with amateur propheteers, yeah, like a doctor of divinity I'm sure could narrow it down and clear it all right up.

Rise of the Little Horn names Trump as the AntiChrist. Read the reviews, doesn't appear to be a parody. Athough I'm sure Trump is most offended by Little Horn, and would have preferred Big Horn. Book even says it is not a work of fiction, so dar ya go!

The Fourth Beast: Is Donald Trump the Antichrist?

Is Trump the Anti-Christ?

Is Trump the AntiChrist, The Future

Bible Prophecy & Trump: Daniel Chapter 8 A Goat Stubborn King of the West will Attack Iran (Persia) making His Nation "Very Great" in End Times Then the ... Occurs Over 150 End Time Prophecies

A least this last one, not the AntiChrist, Trump is just a stubborn Goat King of the West.
  #74  
Old 01-14-2020, 12:55 AM
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LOL. One of the amusing things about getting old is seeing the same bullshit recycled again and again, and watching young people (or old people with no memory) fall for it.

Pretty much every time an Evangelical has gotten near Miiddle East policy in the last 40 years, media types but have no clue about what evangelicals actually believe get their panties in a twist about how all the Jeebus freaks are trying to usher in the end times.

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/21/u...to-reagan.html
  #75  
Old 01-14-2020, 02:53 AM
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Perhaps CBN is more to your liking, start at the 1:40 mark. Read that question back, and Pompeo's answer.

Well there is a Hebrew letter that looks just like that, a Swiss Army Knife. So maybe Pompeo uses that for some kind of a of symbolic inspiration and evangelical support for Israel, hell if I know.

But using a Swiss Army knife to mark a page in Ester shouldn't be the thing one is the most concerned about. The craziness of fundamentalists and evangelicals and the shit they read in holy works that inspires them should be.
The funny thing is that according to the Bible and history alike, in all of antiquity, Persia was the Jews' greatest friend and benefactor. Cyrus the Great, after all, freed the Jews from bondage in Babylon and allowed them to rebuild the Temple, granting them full religious. Other than that unfortunate incident with Haman (who was just the one guy), the Persian Empire were the nicest people we ever dealt with.
  #76  
Old 01-14-2020, 09:35 PM
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LOL. One of the amusing things about getting old is seeing the same bullshit recycled again and again, and watching young people (or old people with no memory) fall for it.

Pretty much every time an Evangelical has gotten near Miiddle East policy in the last 40 years, media types but have no clue about what evangelicals actually believe get their panties in a twist about how all the Jeebus freaks are trying to usher in the end times.

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/21/u...to-reagan.html
Forty years ago I lived a mile away from Wheaton College, Billy Graham 's alma mater. I have a fair idea what Evangelicals believe. First, I'm going to Hell.
  #77  
Old 01-15-2020, 03:39 PM
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I remember an article by Gore Vidal predicting that Ronald Reagan would initiate Armageddon before leaving office to fulfil the prophesy.
  #78  
Old 01-15-2020, 07:56 PM
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forty years ago i lived a mile away from wheaton college, billy graham 's alma mater. I have a fair idea what evangelicals believe.
😂😂😂😂
  #79  
Old 01-15-2020, 09:42 PM
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It was the good old days when all you needed to say to a freshman asking, "Have you been saved? " was "No, I'm Catholic. " Then their profs put a bounty on Catholics, so I switched to being Jewish. That didn't last (perhaps the profs learned the error of their Protestant ways and introduced the kids to indulgences), so I tried, "Have you heard the good news of Rev Sun Myung Moon?" Before I needed to learn anything about the Unification Church it was just easier to move to the next town east.
  #80  
Old 01-15-2020, 09:43 PM
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Duplicate content

Last edited by dropzone; 01-15-2020 at 09:47 PM.
  #81  
Old 01-16-2020, 05:49 AM
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LOL. One of the amusing things about getting old is seeing the same bullshit recycled again and again, and watching young people (or old people with no memory) fall for it.

Pretty much every time an Evangelical has gotten near Miiddle East policy in the last 40 years, media types but have no clue about what evangelicals actually believe get their panties in a twist about how all the Jeebus freaks are trying to usher in the end times.

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/21/u...to-reagan.html
Uh, you linked an article showing that they got the beliefs right. As does my experience as an former Evangelical myself.

You can debate to what extent those involving themselves in the Middle East are trying to fulfill prophecy, but not that the stated beliefs are wrong. I could ask any of the eschatology nerds at my (old?) church 5 minutes away and get the same story I got all my life and terrified me as a kid.

Though I will note that working towards prophesy is not the same thing as succeeding. Armageddon, as they understand it at least, is a fictional story. There may be some final war to end all wars, but the "prophecy" is based on weird allegorical (and even some numerological) interpretations of nearly 2000 year old text, not some actual strategic planning.
  #82  
Old 01-16-2020, 09:15 AM
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^^^The problem with prophecies is that it's like trying to nail down diarrhea, the trick is first determining what is the specific prophecy it is supposedly predicting, even better a specific time it will occur. Since they are often vague and ambiguous, this leaves plenty of wiggle room for the prophet as well as the interpreter.
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