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  #1  
Old 01-10-2020, 02:58 PM
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Trump Does Not Lie


[URL="https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/13/donald-trump-positive-thinking-215704"]Reference: [/URL

Trump is an avid follower of the phyllosophy of Dr. Norman Vincent Peale:

“Stamp indelibly on your mind a mental picture of yourself as succeeding...Hold this picture tenaciously. Never permit it to fade.., Affirm it, visualize it, believe it, and it will actualize itself”

“Stamp indelibly on your mind a mental picture of yourself as succeeding,” Peale urged his millions of followers. “Hold this picture tenaciously. Never permit it to fade.”

eals with the world as he wishes it to be, not as it is.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:07 PM
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I see a major difference between "stamping an image on your mind" and then seeking to make it true and telling other people it already is true. One is trying to make the world a better place (or at least trying to put yourself into a better place). The other is lying.

Trump does lie. Trump has lied. Trump will lie. Trump is lying. Trump has been lying. Trump will be lying. Trump will have been lying. Trump lied. Trump will have lied. Trump lies. Trump is a liar.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:26 PM
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Trump Does Not Lie


REFERENCE

Trump is an avid follower of Dr. Norman Vincent Peale:

“Stamp indelibly on your mind a mental picture of yourself as succeeding...Hold this picture tenaciously. Never permit it to fade.., Affirm it, visualize it, believe it, and it will actualize itself”

Trump deals only with the a delusional world as he wishes it to be, not the world as it is. This world view is portable. One day NATO is a bunch of foreign parasites and the next day it is a world military force commanded by Donald Trump. In both cases it fits his immediate world view and is used without concern for history or contradiction. All of his actions and utterances are referenced only to his currently internalized world view. There is no regard for 'fact'. So, technically, he cannot lie.

His outrageous statements make sense in the context of his delusional world view. He is not lying. He believes what is obviously nonsense.

This situation has been public knowledge for his entire political career. It clearly explains his strange actions. I find it odd that Trump's adherence to "The Power of Positive Thinking" is not a part of our current political debate.

Last edited by Crane; 01-10-2020 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:26 PM
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I don't see how being a positive thinker means you never lie.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:32 PM
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Putin's Puppet doesn't know enough to lie. Since he knows nothing, he always says what he imagines to be true.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:34 PM
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Is there an echo in here?
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:35 PM
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Trump lies, but more to the point, he just says whatever he wants to say, especially what he thinks will go over well with his target audience, without regard to its truth value.

We've had liars in a position of power before (e.g. Nixon), but we've never had a total fabulist like Trump in such a position before.

ETA: The distinction I'm trying to make is that most of what the run-of-the-mill liar (like Nixon) says is true, with lies mixed in here and there. A fabulist (like Trump) only incidentally tells the truth.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 01-10-2020 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:35 PM
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In order to lie you need to know the truth and deliberately misstate it.

Trump simply maintains a delusional world view and acts consistently with it. He does not know the truth.

RTF agreed. Trump speaks without regard for the truth.

Last edited by Crane; 01-10-2020 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:36 PM
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I’m thinking more rant than debate.

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Old 01-10-2020, 03:43 PM
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No, Trump's biographer has recorded in detail the extent to which Trump is a follower of Dr. Peale.

No rant involved.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:45 PM
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Sorry - I'm getting some strange delays

Last edited by Crane; 01-10-2020 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:48 PM
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In order to lie you need to know the truth and deliberately misstate it.

Trump simply maintains a delusional world view and acts consistently with it. He does not know the truth.

RTF agreed. Trump speaks without regard for the truth.
You have a valid point. Pathological liars cannot help themselves, and pathological lying is often entangled with a narcissistic or borderline personality disorder, both of which he appears to suffer from. He appears to side with whatever was most recently said to him, regardless of its absurdity, or even its contradiction to what he has said previously. I would suspect there is a lot of inside maneuvering in the WH and even online to be the last person he speaks to prior to his issuing one of his bizarre statements.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:58 PM
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He does seek self affirmation but he doesn't require it. The Pealthnk proposes that if you are adamant in holding to your world view, you will alter reality.
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Old 01-10-2020, 04:38 PM
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No, Trump's biographer has recorded in detail the extent to which Trump is a follower of Dr. Peale.

No rant involved.
Maybe the audio books. Scratch that, even that would require some span of attention. Bumper stickers?
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Old 01-10-2020, 05:29 PM
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Isn't one of Trump's (few) truisms that appearances matter more than reality? In that light, why would you trust anything he says or implies, including some rather fanciful notion that he isn't lying - he's just positively thinking! The perception that he's an optimistic forward-thinker certainly serves him better than the reality of him being an ignorant blithering bloviating liar, no?

In other words, he has thoroughly and repeatedly squandered any right he might once have had to be regarded as intelligent, truthful or wise.
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Old 01-10-2020, 05:43 PM
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"Just remember it's not a lie if you believe it." - George Costanza
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Old 01-10-2020, 05:52 PM
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Notice how Trump seldom if ever accuses anybody of lying? It's because he doesn't know what lying means. Truth is whatever glorifies and helps him. Everything else is fake or unfair or unreal. But - it's never a lie. Trump cannot comprehend the concept of lying, because that would mean being conscious of another human's mental state, and likewise conscious of how that squares with reality. He doesn't know reality, he doesn't know other people's minds, he doesn't even know his own mind.

He's as ignorant of the concept of lying as a rattlesnake is ignorant of venom, but that doesn't prevent either from being very good at what they do.
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Old 01-10-2020, 06:01 PM
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"Just remember it's not a lie if you believe it." - George Costanza
"It takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen."
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Old 01-10-2020, 06:06 PM
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Very true.

Trumps reality is simply what is in his best interest at the moment.

However, this is not mental disfunction, it is the dogma of his church and the teachings of Norman Vincent Peale.

I find it odd thathis is not covered by those in the media (FOX excepted).

Last edited by Crane; 01-10-2020 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 01-10-2020, 06:10 PM
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Wait, Norman Vincent Peale? That conman?
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Old 01-10-2020, 06:11 PM
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Very true.

Trumps reality is simply what is in his best interest at the moment.

However, this is not mental disfunction, it is the dogma of his church and the teachings of Norman Vincent Peale.

I find it odd thathis is not covered by those in the media (FOX excepted).
Not true, it is a mental disorder called narcissism, it's been covered abundantly by pretty much everyone except Fox.
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Old 01-10-2020, 06:41 PM
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Very true.

Trumps reality is simply what is in his best interest at the moment.

However, this is not mental disfunction, it is the dogma of his church and the teachings of Norman Vincent Peale.

I find it odd thathis is not covered by those in the media (FOX excepted).
And by what medium do you suppose Trump absorbs his teachings?
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Old 01-10-2020, 06:49 PM
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Very true.

Trumps reality is simply what is in his best interest at the moment.

However, this is not mental disfunction, it is the dogma of his church and the teachings of Norman Vincent Peale.

I find it odd thathis is not covered by those in the media (FOX excepted).
I don't believe this is an accurate description of Trump's behavior.

I mean, yes. I'm sure he's convinced himself of a number of things, like that he's awesome, attractive, a good golfer, smarter than everybody, too smart to take advice, and so on.

But the fact he gets so mad when people call his hands small means that he knows his detractors are right - if he thought his detractors were delusional he'd just be be bemused or at worst irritated.

If you want to know where Trump is delusional, look at the cases where he blows off or ignores criticism. If you want to know where Trump knows that others are speaking the truth, look for his angry tweets.
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Old 01-10-2020, 06:58 PM
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Not true, it is a mental disorder called narcissism, it's been covered abundantly by pretty much everyone except Fox.
And here's a refresher, in case anyone has any doubts:

Quote:
Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

A narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of life, such as relationships, work, school or financial affairs. People with narcissistic personality disorder may be generally unhappy and disappointed when they're not given the special favors or admiration they believe they deserve. They may find their relationships unfulfilling, and others may not enjoy being around them.
That's from the Mayo website, which also has a list of symptoms that describe Trump in chilling detail.
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Old 01-10-2020, 08:06 PM
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...But the fact he gets so mad when people call his hands small means that he knows his detractors are right - if he thought his detractors were delusional he'd just be be bemused or at worst irritated. ...
That's right.

And the idea that Trump doesn't understand what "lying" means is contradicted by his use of "Lyin'" as a nickname, as with "Lyin' Ted Cruz". Trump knows that a propensity to misrepresent the truth is seen as negative.

Also: many of Trump's lies are nothing whatsoever to do with 'positive thinking' or with actualizing self-improving traits in himself. Examples would be his repetitions of 'Obama gave Iran ______ billions' or 'after 9-11, Muslims in New Jersey danced and celebrated on the rooftops.'

A lot of his lies are just ugly shit that he thinks make his rivals and opponents look bad, or ugly shit that will appeal to his base.
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Old 01-10-2020, 08:29 PM
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But the fact he gets so mad when people call his hands small means that he knows his detractors are right - if he thought his detractors were delusional he'd just be be bemused or at worst irritated.

If you want to know where Trump is delusional, look at the cases where he blows off or ignores criticism. If you want to know where Trump knows that others are speaking the truth, look for his angry tweets.
This is why I say Trump is not delusional or a liar. A delusional person has chosen an alternate reality with different truths and lies than you or I understand. They are capable of talking about truth or lies in the context of their alternate reality. A liar understands what others believe, and forms an alternate reality to counter it.

This describes Trump supporters. They are all delusional and/or liars to some extent. It doesn't describe Trump himself. Trump does not understand reality or falsehood, cannot identify truth or lies. There is only Trump and anti-Trump.

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Old 01-11-2020, 02:33 AM
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Trying to make something true by saying it is still lying. A lie is merely a knowingly untrue statement. And if you are trying to make something happen by saying it, you inherently admit you know it isn't true.

Also, saying someone doesn't know the difference between truth or lies is saying that person is delusional. That's what delusion is. It's not merely having incorrect facts.

I'm sure Trump does have some incorrect facts and beliefs. But he also lies. He lies a lot. The issue is that he doesn't see anything wrong with this.

There is no need to try and absolve him of his lies by acting like he genuinely believes everything he says. The guy has admitted he sometime says one thing but actually believes another--it showed up on the Apprentice.

Last edited by BigT; 01-11-2020 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 01-11-2020, 08:05 AM
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Whether he constantly lies or constantly makes up his own reality, is this someone who should be president?
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Old 01-11-2020, 09:15 AM
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Trump exhibits psychopathic symptoms that have their origin in The Power of Positive Thinking. Norman Vincent Peale is not just the author. Peale is Trump's minister and a life long friend and advisor. Trumps Svengali.

I am amazed when Trump casually makes a statement that obviously will be proven false. Like his 'best ever' claims or his team of birther investigators in Hawaii. But it makes sense when you realize that he constantly interacts with the world as he imagines it to be, not as it is.

To answer Brian Ekers - This man should never have been considered for the office of President. But, there cannot be a religious test for holding office and Positive Thinking is/was taught as a religious principle.
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Old 01-11-2020, 09:22 AM
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Positive thinking is a way of changing ones perspective. Trump doesn't do it. If Trump was approaching life from a positive perspective, he'd never describe things as rigged, unfair, witch hunt, etc. You are wrong on the internet about Trump's outlook, and furthermore, a religion it ain't.

Last edited by bobot; 01-11-2020 at 09:23 AM. Reason: '
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Old 01-11-2020, 09:34 AM
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Actually it is - Check it out
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Old 01-11-2020, 09:59 AM
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If Donald "Unfair" Trump is using positive thinking, he's naturally fucking it up. If positive thinking were a casino, Trumpy would bankrupt it.
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Old 01-11-2020, 10:13 AM
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bobot,

In order to maintain a positive position, Trump is negative about everything else.

Also, a serious side effect of "Positive Thinking" is that you eventually believe your own bullshit.
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Old 01-11-2020, 10:22 AM
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What nonsense. Trump tells untruths and he knows it--that's lying.

"Positive thinking" is not relevant here, and in any case that's just a gloss for a sense of entitlement. He thinks he's entitled to lie without accountability. He thinks the world should accept his lies so he can get what he wants, which is self-enrichment and self-aggrandizement.

The only delusion here is that Trump thinks his exclusive license to lie extends beyond his family business, in which he was able to get away with it for so long because he had some money and privilege. If Trump is delusional, it's not that he believes his lies--it's that he thinks his "right" to lie is absolute, because he's privileged.
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Old 01-11-2020, 10:39 AM
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bobot,

In order to maintain a positive position, Trump is negative about everything else.

Also, a serious side effect of "Positive Thinking" is that you eventually believe your own bullshit.
So what. Trumps lack of introspection or ability to understand facts may mean he has mental health issues.

'fer instance, if he actually believes that the noise from windmills causes cancer, he's just a moron, not a positive thinker.
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Old 01-11-2020, 10:51 AM
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Really. To say Trump is not a liar because he believes his lies is the same as saying that he should be able to rob a bank be cause he thinks he is owed money.

Positive thinking is making the best out of a bad situation. Trumps version of positive thinking is trying to figure out how to take advantage of others.

In any case, lying is one of the least of his faults. It's just a crutch he uses as an immoral asshole that doesn't care about anyone but himself.
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Old 01-11-2020, 10:58 AM
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Perhaps true from our standpoint. But to understand what's going on we have to see it from Trump's perspective.

His world view is totally delusional. That makes him unfit for public office and he should be removed. However, his world view is based in his religious education. He cannot be removed because there can be no religious test for public office.
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:06 AM
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Trump is a deceiver and among the most* secretive and manipulative president. The secret nature does strongly indicate that he does lie, as that is needed to maintain his public image, so it is a intentional act. Thus putting forth a illusion while concealing evidence to the contrary. It is akin to lying by omission, not allowing facts to the contrary, to support ones' view.

* I don't know many presidents, but by far and away the great deceiver of my time.

Last edited by kanicbird; 01-11-2020 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:23 AM
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In most cases Trump does not know the truth. He neither reads nor listens.

Some of his followers have told me that Trump does not lie because what he says could be true. We just don't know (ignotum per ignotius).

Last edited by Crane; 01-11-2020 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 01-11-2020, 12:19 PM
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In most cases Trump does not know the truth. He neither reads nor listens.

Some of his followers have told me that Trump does not lie because what he says could be true. We just don't know (ignotum per ignotius).
Like having to flush a toilet ten times? The man is an idiot and so is anyone who would believe such nonsense (or even think that it is possibly true).
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Old 01-11-2020, 12:37 PM
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In most cases Trump does not know the truth. He neither reads nor listens.

Some of his followers have told me that Trump does not lie because what he says could be true. We just don't know (ignotum per ignotius).
I could sprout wings, we just don't know.

You're defending him and his followers because he is ignorant, and does not read or listen. Try that in front of a judge and let us know how that works out.
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Old 01-11-2020, 12:49 PM
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Trump is a deceiver and among the most* secretive and manipulative president. The secret nature does strongly indicate that he does lie, as that is needed to maintain his public image, so it is a intentional act. Thus putting forth a illusion while concealing evidence to the contrary. It is akin to lying by omission, not allowing facts to the contrary, to support ones' view.

* I don't know many presidents, but by far and away the great deceiver of my time.
Occam's Razor would disagree. Trump proves it every day. I say he's a stupid asshole that doesn't care about anyone but himself. He always has been, there is plenty of evidence for that. He fell ass first into a job that is way, way beyond him.

I wouldn't trust him to be able to operate a broom.
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Old 01-11-2020, 12:57 PM
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Perhaps true from our standpoint. But to understand what's going on we have to see it from Trump's perspective.
We don't spend a lot of time looking at the world from the perspective of a criminal or a mental patient. Guess why.

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His world view is totally delusional.
Got it on first try.

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However, his world view is based in his religious education. He cannot be removed because there can be no religious test for public office.
I don't know what the last sentence even means.

As for the first: Trump's god and religion is Trump.
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Old 01-11-2020, 01:02 PM
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...
I don't know what the last sentence even means.
....
It seems important to Crane that it is established that positive thinking is a religion. (Hey, it's as sensible as the thread title: Trump Does Not Lie.)

Last edited by bobot; 01-11-2020 at 01:03 PM. Reason: C
  #45  
Old 01-11-2020, 01:32 PM
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That sentence is the entire point of the OP.
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Old 01-11-2020, 01:34 PM
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That sentence is the entire point of the OP.
And that suggests the original poster is also deep in a reality of his own choosing.
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Old 01-11-2020, 02:02 PM
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Positive thinking by a long hair on a cross does suggest a certain religiosity, no?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M
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Old 01-11-2020, 03:03 PM
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Notice how Trump seldom if ever accuses anybody of lying? It's because he doesn't know what lying means. Truth is whatever glorifies and helps him. Everything else is fake or unfair or unreal. But - it's never a lie. Trump cannot comprehend the concept of lying, because that would mean being conscious of another human's mental state, and likewise conscious of how that squares with reality. He doesn't know reality, he doesn't know other people's minds, he doesn't even know his own mind.

He's as ignorant of the concept of lying as a rattlesnake is ignorant of venom, but that doesn't prevent either from being very good at what they do.

Trump is always accusing others, especially competent journalists, of lying. "Fake" is one of his favorite words.
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Old 01-11-2020, 03:07 PM
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Peale Religion

"....pastor Marble Collegiate Church, one of the oldest Protestant congregations in America. When he arrived, this church had around 600 members; upon his departure 52 years later it had 5,000. It was here that he would gain worldwide acclaim and notoriety as a teacher of positive thinking."

"...He became one of the most influential Christian leaders in the world, gaining a voice into business and politics, even officiating at the wedding of David Eisenhower and Julie Nixon. On March 26, 1984 President Ronald Reagan awarded him the highest civilian honor in the United States, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, for his contributions to theology."

Trump's delusional world view is the product of his religious education. The result is that he has no ability to deal with objective fact. His utterances are not related to truth. Peale reality = "I think therefore it is".

Since Trump's relation to truth is based on religion it cannot be a test for holding the Presidency.
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Old 01-11-2020, 03:16 PM
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While there are no religious purity tests, there are mental competency tests. I suspect if Trump is ever judged to be mentally incompetent, it won't be based on his commitment to the "Peale Religion".
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