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  #51  
Old 01-14-2020, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
Do you realize that this thing that you posted shows that your claim is calumnious bullshit?

"Someone also lied about being Native American for half their life," is at odds with your statement that there are, in fact, Native Americans in her family tree.

So not only is your claim that Warren lied false, you are aware of and providing evidence of its falseness.

Why would you do that?
This gets at the crux of the issue: in the eighties, how white people defined being part Native American, and how most Native Americans defined being part Native American, were really different.

For a lot of white people, having any family legend of Native American ancestry sufficed to qualify you for this little bit of exotic noble savage heritage. For a lot of Native Americans (at least the authors from the time period I've read, who admittedly are the sorts of people who care enough about political issues to write articles and essays), what was more important was cultural connection: living on a reservation, participation in tribal events, and the like.

Warren made her claims in good faith and white privilege. She wasn't lying, but she was thinking about things in a pretty shallow, possibly racist manner. She deserves criticism for that.

But she's also, I think, indicated that she regrets her earlier attitude. I might take direction on how to interpret her apology--but whatever direction I take won't be from anyone who calls her Pocahontas.
  #52  
Old 01-14-2020, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
Do you realize that this thing that you posted shows that your claim is calumnious bullshit?

"Someone also lied about being Native American for half their life," is at odds with your statement that there are, in fact, Native Americans in her family tree.

So not only is your claim that Warren lied false, you are aware of and providing evidence of its falseness.

Why would you do that?
Thatís a terribly stupid thing to post. Having NA ancestry in the distant upper branches of your family tree doesnít make you an ĎAmerican Indianí. So my statements are not at odds.

If my great-great-great-great-great-great grandmother was Nigerian, that wouldnít make me African. And if I put down on a census form that I was fucking Black when anyone with eyes can see Iím white as a sheet, that would make me - like Elizabeth Warren - a liar, an imbecile, a nutcase, or some combination of the three. And if I then took a DNA test and doubled down on national television then itíd be all anyone would talk about, and rightly so, because itíd be completely fucking mental!

Imagine if Bernie had spent decades saying he was Black. Imagine a white Ivy League university had taken him on and crowed about how they had a Black man on the faculty. Imagine if Bernie said he knew he was Black because his parents told him, or because of the shape of his grandfatherís nose. Imagine if he submitted a soul food ďfamily recipeĒ to a Black cookbook which turned out to be stolen from the New York Times? Would anyone be shrugging it off as irrelevant?

So why did Warren say it? Was it because, as you say, she learned it at her motherís knee? Iíd buy that if she passed the Texas bar when she was twelve. But she wasnít twelve. She was an adult woman, and if her critical faculties were strong enough to get her through a bar exam, they shouldíve been strong enough for her to realise, upon seeing her own reflection, that she wasnít an American Indian; that she was, instead, a member of the race that massacred the American Indians, and that therefore putting herself down as an American Indian on her fucking census form was a really bad idea.

I canít crowbar my mind open wide enough to accommodate the possibility that Warren is that stupid. The only other option is that she lied. And this matters because it speaks to her character, and character is important in elections. It also matters to the OP because Iím not going to believe someone who lies about her own race over Bernie Sanders.
  #53  
Old 01-14-2020, 03:15 PM
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I can’t crowbar my mind open wide enough to accommodate the possibility that Warren is that stupid.
I certainly can. Family lore can be extremely powerful, even for smart people. If she was taught all her life that she had NA ancestry, than she's likely to believe it, at least when she was a young adult.

I like Warren and I like Sanders, and this stuff really doesn't mean anything compared to their stance on the issues and their proposed strategy to beat Trump.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 01-14-2020 at 03:15 PM.
  #54  
Old 01-14-2020, 03:31 PM
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Oh, well, if we're adding context we should mention that the opponent they both hope to run against lies dozens of times a day on virtually every topic from the trivial to the serious, and that many of the people who bring up Warren's misapprehension of her own family background seem perfectly fine supporting someone who has told thousands of lies in the last three years alone (not to mention the Trump University fraud case and the use of the Trump Foundation to divert charitable donations to Trump business and political rallies).

But yeah. Liz Warren once wrote a thing on a form decades ago. Let's focus on that. For context.
Look, if Warren gets the nomination Iíll support the shit out of her, but until then Iím not going to pretend she doesnít have integrity problems.
  #55  
Old 01-14-2020, 03:38 PM
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I certainly can. Family lore can be extremely powerful, even for smart people. If she was taught all her life that she had NA ancestry, than she's likely to believe it, at least when she was a young adult.
Right. And she's from Oklahoma. My wife is from Oklahoma as well. There are a lot of people who claim some Native American heritage from there for obvious reasons. Sometimes that heritage gets attenuated.

And as for the looking in the mirror comment - one of my best friends is half-Mexican. You would never be able to tell that if you looked at him. In fact people have made anti-Mexican jokes in front of him because they assumed he was just a generic white dude.
  #56  
Old 01-14-2020, 03:53 PM
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they shouldíve been strong enough for her to realise, upon seeing her own reflection, that she wasnít an American Indian;
This (and the other times you've said this or something similar in this thread) demonstrates a misguided, inaccurate and, frankly, offensive belief about what defines a person's ethnicity. There are many Native Americans who "don't look" like they are (to an uninformed and biased eye). NOBODY can tell by looking in the mirror, or looking at another person's face, whether or not they are Native American. Skin tone, hair and eye color, etc., are of no more importance in determining a person's membership in a tribe than their shoe size or fingernail length.
  #57  
Old 01-14-2020, 03:57 PM
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I realize we've probably hijacked this thread since the thread is about gender (hopefully mods can come stop this,) but:

IMHO, it should be common courtesy that you shouldn't try to claim benefits for something unless you actually took the cons with the pros of that thing as well and actually walked the walk. If you look white in every way, and never actually faced discrimination for being Native American (or Hispanic, or black, or Arab, or Asian, or whatever,) then you shouldn't try to play that card for the benefit. If you didn't pay or suffer the price, don't collect the affirmative action or benefit or whatever.

If Warren were someone who were half-white and half-Native-American, but looked visibly Native American and had been getting treated her whole life as one, then that would be different.

Last edited by Velocity; 01-14-2020 at 03:58 PM.
  #58  
Old 01-14-2020, 04:01 PM
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IMHO, it should be common courtesy that you shouldn't try to claim benefits for something unless you actually took the cons with the pros of that thing as well and actually walked the walk. If you look white in every way, and never actually faced discrimination for being Native American (or Hispanic, or black, or Arab, or Asian, or whatever,) then you shouldn't try to play that card for the benefit. If you didn't pay or suffer the price, don't collect the affirmative action or benefit or whatever.
This is a question worth arguing, in the abstract, and your position is reasonable in many ways (and can be applied in a wide variety of specific cases).

But in this specific case, is there any evidence whatsoever that Warren ever claimed any or collected any benefits as a result of believing she had Native American ancestry? I know of no such evidence.
  #59  
Old 01-14-2020, 04:15 PM
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When NA casinos started making a lot of cash many people suddenly found out they were members of the tribe.
  #60  
Old 01-14-2020, 04:20 PM
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So why did Warren say it? Was it because, as you say, she learned it at her motherís knee? Iíd buy that if she passed the Texas bar when she was twelve. But she wasnít twelve. She was an adult woman, and if her critical faculties were strong enough to get her through a bar exam, they shouldíve been strong enough for her to realise, upon seeing her own reflection, that she wasnít an American Indian; that she was, instead, a member of the race that massacred the American Indians, and that therefore putting herself down as an American Indian on her fucking census form was a really bad idea.
She said it because she believed it and she believed it because it was part of family lore. Family lore that was verified to some degree by a DNA test.

Furthermore she did look in the mirror and thought that what she saw there indicated she was Native American because she was told from a very young age that the high cheekbones in her family were a Native American trait.

"No, as I said, these are my family stories. I have lived in a family that has talked about Native Americans, talked about tribes since I had been a little girl. I still have a picture on my mantel and it is a picture my mother had before that - a picture of my grandfather. And my Aunt Bea has walked by that picture at least a 1,000 times remarked that he - her father, my Papaw -- had high cheek bones like all of the Indians do. Because that is how she saw it and your mother got those same great cheek bones and I didn't. She thought that was the bad deal she had gotten in life. Being Native American has been part of my story, I guess, since the day I was born."

You are free to say she is stupid for believing something she was told over and over again all her life. I disagree. Her family lore led her to believe that she had Native American ancestors, and more importantly a DNA has since shown that her family lore was correct. It's not stupid to believe that even if her belief was greatly exaggerated compared to her actual Native American ancestry.

Finally, it is pure balderdash to say that she was or is being dishonest about this, and that's the claim I objected to from the outset.
  #61  
Old 01-14-2020, 04:57 PM
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When NA casinos started making a lot of cash many people suddenly found out they were members of the tribe.
This goes back way further than casinos and has a real Noble Savage racist undertone. "My great-grandmother was a Cherokee Princess" is a joke phrase among Cherokee, IIRC, because they hear it from so many white people.

I asked a Cherokee speaker once about that (during a college class where he was talking about teaching native kids). His response was interesting: during the early 19th century, a lot of Cherokee/Scots hybrid families formed in Appalachia and then hid the Cherokee women to avoid forced removal. He thought there was a fair amount of truth to these family stories, even if they didn't indicate cultural membership in the Cherokee nation.

Another explanation: families with black ancestors would sometimes claim native ancestry in the South to explain their darker-than-white skin tones, because native ancestry is romantic in a way that black ancestry isn't, among some racist white people.

And now I'm completely off-track. But it ain't about the casinos .

(disclosure: I grew up hearing about my Cherokee great-granddad, and I think even today my mom believes that story. Due to a variety of factors I'm about 95% sure it's not true).

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  #62  
Old 01-14-2020, 05:02 PM
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My grandfather had particularly dark skin for a white man, and this was explained by supposed native American ancestry from his mother.

We did DNA tests in the last few years, and it turns out he was an eighth black. I doubt he even knew it - his parents died and he was on his own at 14.

But before the DNA tests we believed it.
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  #63  
Old 01-14-2020, 05:36 PM
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Finally, all over the place, but especially in Oklahoma, there are a ton of Native Americans who don't necessarily look particularly Native American at a glance.

e.g.

Markwayne Mullin - Member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Oklahoma's 2nd district and member of the Cherokee Nation.

Tom Cole - Member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Oklahoma's 4th district - a member of the Chickasaw Nation.

I assume these guys have mirrors. Are they stupid for believing they are Native Americans?

Check out a bunch of dudes on the page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tates_Congress

Last edited by Lance Turbo; 01-14-2020 at 05:38 PM.
  #64  
Old 01-14-2020, 05:54 PM
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Not trying to end the side discussion, but do you think this Warren/Sanders thing will help Biden like The Guardian suggests, or is it a big 'Nothing Burger'?

https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampp...ight-joe-biden

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  #65  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:44 PM
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Not trying to end the side discussion, but do you think this Warren/Sanders thing will help Biden like The Guardian suggests, or is it a big 'Nothing Burger'?

https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampp...ight-joe-biden
It depends how big of a deal the media makes this, honestly. I wish they won't blow this out of proportion...
  #66  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:58 PM
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It depends how big of a deal the media makes this, honestly. I wish they won't blow this out of proportion...
I've had the passing thought that since this brouhaha is bound to increase ratings for tonight's debate, maybe Sanders and Warren decided between themselves 'let's put a supposed conflict between us out there, and then at the debate we can both be calm and conciliatory and Presidential about it, and that will help both of us and hurt neither of us.'

Well, I guess we'll see. If they're bitter and snarky toward each other tonight, that will sink my little theory...
  #67  
Old 01-14-2020, 07:47 PM
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But it's probably true that a woman can't win.

Hilary Clinton*, with great name recognition and eight years of experience in the actual white house, during which time she undoubtedly knew a lot of what was going on, first could not beat a black man of her own party, and then couldn't beat the nation's most well-known pussy-grabbing idiot.

I would be so happy to be proven wrong on this.

*"Oh I wouldn't mind a woman, it's just her." Okay there's a little of that with Clinton, but there's a little of that with every single candidate. "Oh I wouldn't mind a Catholic but not him." "Oh I wouldn't mind an African-American but not him." And so on.
*Again, the whole popular vote v. EC thing.

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  #68  
Old 01-14-2020, 08:00 PM
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Not trying to end the side discussion, but do you think this Warren/Sanders thing will help Biden like The Guardian suggests, or is it a big 'Nothing Burger'?

https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampp...ight-joe-biden
Of frigging course it's a nothing burger. This is something Sanders supposedly said in a private conversation in 2018. This story only shows how desperate the media is to stir up a story/shamelessly fill column inches.
  #69  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:29 AM
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Look, if Warren gets the nomination Iíll support the shit out of her, but until then Iím not going to pretend she doesnít have integrity problems.
Apart from the one you're determined to grossly misrepresent, what other "integrity problems" does Warren have?

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When NA casinos started making a lot of cash many people suddenly found out they were members of the tribe.
Funnily enough, that's when many people suddenly found that they weren't members of the tribe because that meant the remaining members got to split the profits fewer ways.
  #70  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:40 AM
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Fox, heh has posted video of Bernies Sanders saying in 1988 that a woman COULD be elected president, I have to say I think Bernie is the one telling the truth in this whole thing. I think Warren lied about it and even used it as ammo in the debate.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bernie...d-be-president

Last edited by pool; 01-15-2020 at 05:41 AM.
  #71  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:02 AM
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Look, I know the Empire blew up Alderaan, destroyed our base at Hoth, and is building a new Death Star...

I'm just saying that this two year old private conversation between Admiral Akbar and Mon Mothma needs to be worked out before we move forward.
From here.
  #72  
Old 01-15-2020, 07:23 AM
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I've lost all respect for CNN after this debate and their "handling" of this.
  #73  
Old 01-15-2020, 09:16 AM
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I've lost all respect for CNN after this debate and their "handling" of this.
Warren's response was really good, I thought. I haven't lost any respect for CNN, though. Can't lose what you don't have.

I understand the need to gin up controversy, but CNN pretty much called Sanders a liar to his face. That's not moderating a debate.

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  #74  
Old 01-15-2020, 09:58 AM
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Fox, heh has posted video of Bernies Sanders saying in 1988 that a woman COULD be elected president, I have to say I think Bernie is the one telling the truth in this whole thing. I think Warren lied about it and even used it as ammo in the debate.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bernie...d-be-president
Sanders saying something in 1988 has no bearing on what he said in 2018.

Sanders saying something publicly has no bearing on what he said privately.

Something might have been said that they both interpreted differently.
  #75  
Old 01-15-2020, 11:14 AM
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Sanders saying something in 1988 has no bearing on what he said in 2018.
This would be true of most politicians--but Bernie's main selling point is that he hasn't changed his tune since 1888.

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Something might have been said that they both interpreted differently.
This seems far and away the likeliest explanation to me. Sanders almost certainly tried to dissuade Warren from running, and she almost certainly tried to dissuade him from running, because not doing so would be stupid. Sanders probably talked about the attacks that would get leveled at Warren, just as she probably talked about the attacks that would get leveled at him.

I'm not impressed with how Warren has handled this, at all.
  #76  
Old 01-15-2020, 12:22 PM
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Apart from the one you're determined to grossly misrepresent, what other "integrity problems" does Warren have?
In addition to pretending to be Indian, Warren was caught lying about being fired for being pregnant, not sending her kids to private school, her financing for Medicare for All, and her research into bankruptcy.
  #77  
Old 01-15-2020, 12:22 PM
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Sanders saying something publicly has no bearing on what he said privately.
I lean towards this. A guy like Bernie can't possibly say in public, "A woman can't get elected." But in private, he would very reasonably be telling Warren that she'd face disadvantages against Trump a man wouldn't.
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Old 01-15-2020, 01:28 PM
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It was quite amusing that Warren pretended that her mediocre electoral performances in dark blue MA were some kind of electoral asset. Rather shrewdly she clubbed herself with Klobuchar who does have an impressive electoral record. She was probably counting on the profoundly innumerate DC punditocracy not being able to parse the numbers and right on cue one of them took the bait taking her claims at face value.
  #79  
Old 01-15-2020, 01:54 PM
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This would be true of most politicians--but Bernie's main selling point is that he hasn't changed his tune since 1888.


This seems far and away the likeliest explanation to me. Sanders almost certainly tried to dissuade Warren from running, and she almost certainly tried to dissuade him from running, because not doing so would be stupid. Sanders probably talked about the attacks that would get leveled at Warren, just as she probably talked about the attacks that would get leveled at him.

I'm not impressed with how Warren has handled this, at all.
Personally, I've been impressed with how she's handled it, both in the debate last night and the overall kneecapping ruthlessness with which she's taken Bernie on.

In presidential politics, winners are the candidates who fight like hell to win. Ruthless. I want someone who will scrap and fight, with every ounce of venom he or she has. If anyone thought Bernie and Liz would just hold hands and eat ice cream together through this whole campaign, they were naive.

Bernie is a barrier to her winning the nomination. Bernie's campaign had volunteers directly attack Warren on the doors last week, so she said "Fuck it," and went for it.

Is Bernie a sexist? No. Does he believe a woman can't be president? No. Did he try talking Warren out of running by telling her 2020 might not be the right time for a woman to be the nominee? Sure, I could see it. And Warren has every right to use that against him now.
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Old 01-15-2020, 01:57 PM
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Bernie is a barrier to her winning the nomination. Bernie's campaign had volunteers directly attack Warren on the doors last week, so she said "Fuck it," and went for it.
I must have missed this. What did Bernie Bros do to Warren last week?
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  #81  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:09 PM
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Now Trump has been weighing in on Bernie's side - not exactly what Bernie wants:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-tak...024137675.html
  #82  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:18 PM
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pol...-states-098786

A canvass script with anti-Warren taking points was used last weekend in a few early voting states. At first, the defenders of Bernie said it was rogue actors saying things without authorization, then some defenders said the script was faked. Then they admitted it was real and created by the campaign, not rogue actors. This, apparently, was the act that ended the non-aggression pact between the two camps.

ETA: in response to QuickSilver

Last edited by Happy Lendervedder; 01-15-2020 at 02:19 PM.
  #83  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:24 PM
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  #84  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:40 PM
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Just to add one more point in my defense of Warren's handling of this, here are her words from the debate last night:

"It's time for us to attack it head-on. Look, don't deny that the question is there. Back in the 1960s, people asked, 'Could a Catholic win?' Back in 2008, people asked if an African-American could win. In both times the Democratic Party stepped up and said yes, got behind their candidate and we changed America. That's who we are."

This isn't about trying to paint Bernie as a sexist pig. It's an aggressive move to convince voters that she, a woman, is electable against Trump in 2020 That's really been the elephant in the room for the past year (or more). I'll admit I even said (on these boards and IRL) that a man would probably do better than a woman against Trump, and I know both women and men who have said the same thing. I've changed my tune, although I still haven't settled on which candidate I support.

She took the words that Bernie could very likely have said to her (not making this assumption as an attack on him) and words that many of us have also said, or at least thought, and tackled them to the ground, very eloquently too, imo.
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Old 01-15-2020, 03:14 PM
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This would be true of most politicians--but Bernie's main selling point is that he hasn't changed his tune since 1888.


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  #86  
Old 01-15-2020, 04:29 PM
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The CNN treatment of Bernie was laughable and horrid.

The moderator asked Bernie why he told Warren a woman couldn't get elected. Bernie replied by denying he'd ever said that. The moderator then turned to Warren, "What did you think when Bernie told you a woman couldn't win the election?"
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Old 01-15-2020, 08:48 PM
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A pox on both their houses. Believe women, that's what you're stuck with, you morons.

The best thing about the Parnas interview is the flag pin.
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Old 01-15-2020, 08:52 PM
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Personally, I've been impressed with how she's handled it, both in the debate last night and the overall kneecapping ruthlessness with which she's taken Bernie on.

In presidential politics, winners are the candidates who fight like hell to win. Ruthless. I want someone who will scrap and fight, with every ounce of venom he or she has. If anyone thought Bernie and Liz would just hold hands and eat ice cream together through this whole campaign, they were naive.

Bernie is a barrier to her winning the nomination. Bernie's campaign had volunteers directly attack Warren on the doors last week, so she said "Fuck it," and went for it.

Is Bernie a sexist? No. Does he believe a woman can't be president? No. Did he try talking Warren out of running by telling her 2020 might not be the right time for a woman to be the nominee? Sure, I could see it. And Warren has every right to use that against him now.
How is she gonna kneecap Trump, accuse him of rape, or something really crazy like conspiring with a foreign government to subvert an election?
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Old 01-15-2020, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Happy Lendervedder View Post
Just to add one more point in my defense of Warren's handling of this, here are her words from the debate last night:

"It's time for us to attack it head-on. Look, don't deny that the question is there. Back in the 1960s, people asked, 'Could a Catholic win?' Back in 2008, people asked if an African-American could win. In both times the Democratic Party stepped up and said yes, got behind their candidate and we changed America. That's who we are."

This isn't about trying to paint Bernie as a sexist pig. It's an aggressive move to convince voters that she, a woman, is electable against Trump in 2020 That's really been the elephant in the room for the past year (or more). I'll admit I even said (on these boards and IRL) that a man would probably do better than a woman against Trump, and I know both women and men who have said the same thing. I've changed my tune, although I still haven't settled on which candidate I support.

She took the words that Bernie could very likely have said to her (not making this assumption as an attack on him) and words that many of us have also said, or at least thought, and tackled them to the ground, very eloquently too, imo.
Who says shit like this with straight face? Clinton won 3 million more votes. 3 YEARS AGO.

What's next, how about Buttigieg waits until Warren's locked up in the impeachment trial and then makes something up about Warren?
  #90  
Old 01-15-2020, 09:10 PM
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They never should have had a non-aggression pact in the first place - like what the hell is that anyway? It's a primary in which there were initially 20+ candidates.

Personally I think both Warren and Sanders look a little weak from this episode. Maybe now Bernie Bros can shove their holier-than-thou "He's not a real politician" crap, but Warren still should have shook his hand and faked a smile.
  #91  
Old 01-15-2020, 09:16 PM
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Wake me up on Feb 12th. I've been paying no attention and it's still too much.
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Old 01-15-2020, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
They never should have had a non-aggression pact in the first place - like what the hell is that anyway? It's a primary in which there were initially 20+ candidates.

Personally I think both Warren and Sanders look a little weak from this episode. Maybe now Bernie Bros can shove their holier-than-thou "He's not a real politician" crap, but Warren still should have shook his hand and faked a smile.
I guess the non-aggression pact was made on the thinking they agree much more than they disagree so one could support the other being the eventual nominee --- but Joe Biden stood in the way therefore the two "progressives" had to knock off the "centrist". Unfortunately Biden has proved a tougher nut to crack than they or many in the media thought.
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Old 01-15-2020, 10:02 PM
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I guess the non-aggression pact was made on the thinking they agree much more than they disagree so one could support the other being the eventual nominee --- but Joe Biden stood in the way therefore the two "progressives" had to knock off the "centrist". Unfortunately Biden has proved a tougher nut to crack than they or many in the media thought.
I'm not a fan of Bernie but Sanders didn't call her a liar. I don't pretend to know what all dems are thinking but from my vantage point, it seems like a classic case of a candidate who's panicking and desperate to stay relevant. I say this as someone who has supported Warren more than Sanders up to this point. But this was just a low-blow.

The solution for Warren is obvious: if Sanders campaign staffers are saying Warren is unelectable, then she should just flip it around and make the case that Bernie's not electable. She's using her woman card, and it's unfortunate because if Bernie really wants to go into the gutter he can do it and he wouldn't even look like a douchebag (Pocahontas anyone?).
  #94  
Old 01-15-2020, 11:08 PM
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This is all very unfortunate. It was probably one big misunderstanding.
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Old 01-15-2020, 11:35 PM
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The overheard mic stuff certainly sounds like they both feel they are being truthful and the other not.
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Old 01-16-2020, 12:02 AM
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The overheard mic stuff certainly sounds like they both feel they are being truthful and the other not.
I saw that. Hard to watch.
  #97  
Old 01-16-2020, 12:50 AM
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*Sigh* I can't help feeling that a lot of Democratic politics from here on in is going to be: "You're a sexist!", "You're a racist!","You're a sexist and a racist!". It's not a good trend...

I would also note that while Obama conspicuously refrained from playing the race card, Warren and Klobuchar (and Hillary before them) can't seem to stop playing the gender card. And guess who was elected President twice.

And AFAIK Margaret Thatcher and Angela Merkel, the two most successful female politicians in the Western world, did not play the gender card either.
  #98  
Old 01-16-2020, 01:12 AM
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I'm ruling Warren out after this cheap stunt and I hope she gets primaried.
  #99  
Old 01-16-2020, 01:31 AM
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Apart from the one you're determined to grossly misrepresent, what other "integrity problems" does Warren have?
Iím not misrepresenting anything. Iím just not bending over backwards to be charitable to her.
  #100  
Old 01-16-2020, 07:46 AM
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She's using her woman card, and it's unfortunate because if Bernie really wants to go into the gutter he can do it and he wouldn't even look like a douchebag (Pocahontas anyone?).
I think if Bernie went the "Pocahontas" route it would hurt him among Dem primary voters.
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