#1  
Old 09-17-2019, 03:24 PM
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National ID card?


In this Information Age, it would be a simple thing for the government to issue everyone in America -- at federal expense -- a national ID card, keyed to your SSN, and corresponding to a database in DC that would include a file on you with all your recorded interactions with public authorities -- your birth certificate, (public) school records, driving license/record, arrest records if any, citizenship/residency status, tax returns, etc. -- all saved in pdf, and which any (authorized) public official could call up by swiping your card.

Effects:

It would make LEOs' job easier. (Not that they can't pull up most of that info from their onboard computers now.)

It would make ICE's job easier. (Nativist Robert Tanton has long been pushing for a national ID card for just that reason.)

It would make anti-terrorism efforts easier, both WRT foreign and domestic terrorists (but mainly foreign).

It would make voting registration unnecessary/automatic -- your national ID card would be your voting registration (subject to applicable state law, e.g., felony disenfranchisement). That would render moot the whole "voter ID" issue. Of course, that part would require you to update your address with relevant authorities every time you move -- but, you're expected to do that with your driver's license already.

It would make the census easier, if not unnecessary.

"I hope you know that this will go down in your permanent record." It will!

Of course, just because you have such a card does not mean you're legally required to have it on you at all times or present it when a LEO demands it -- that would require separate legislation, state or federal.

Last edited by kirkrapine; 09-17-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 09-17-2019, 03:51 PM
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It could also serve as your National Healthcare card.
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Old 09-17-2019, 04:54 PM
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Religious extremists believe a national ID card is the mark of the beast from the Book of Revelation. They would freak out about it, the republican party would pander to them, and the democratic party would drop the issue.
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Old 09-17-2019, 04:56 PM
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I have absolutely zero desire to see the first three effects happen.
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Old 09-17-2019, 05:02 PM
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Why on earth would I want the dude at the counter of the DMV pulling up my tax returns?
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:30 PM
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Why on earth would I want the dude at the counter of the DMV pulling up my tax returns?
That's why I specified "authorized." Presumably any official who got his hands on your card would be allowed to search only a legally specified range of your records.

But, why are tax returns private anyway? I think any newspaper reporter should be able to access them. One complaint against FDR, I think, was, "He wants us all to have glass pockets!" Well, why not? Who owns what is a matter of legitimate public interest.
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:58 PM
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That's why I specified "authorized." Presumably any official who got his hands on your card would be allowed to search only a legally specified range of your records.

But, why are tax returns private anyway? I think any newspaper reporter should be able to access them. One complaint against FDR, I think, was, "He wants us all to have glass pockets!" Well, why not? Who owns what is a matter of legitimate public interest.
There is nothing about my money that is a matter of legitimate public interest. I am not a public figure and have literally no power or influence over any policy anywhere. The only reasons I can even imagine to care how much money I have are all illegitimate.

And back on the subject of the cards, given that you're saying I don't have to have it on me, what possible use does this thing have? I'm already in countless government systems. If they can't get their act together enough to correlate their data, that has nothing to do with cards.
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Old 09-17-2019, 07:02 PM
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"Show us your papers!"

Fuck that!
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Old 09-17-2019, 08:40 PM
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And back on the subject of the cards, given that you're saying I don't have to have it on me, what possible use does this thing have?
You can vote with it. You can drive with it. It simplifies things.
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Old 09-17-2019, 10:55 PM
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"Show us your papers!"

Fuck that!
Fucking-A right. Sooner or later, the temptation would be too great.

Also, kirk, how much more chum do you plan on dumping?

Last edited by sps49sd; 09-17-2019 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 09-17-2019, 11:02 PM
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You can vote with it. You can drive with it. It simplifies things.
Do you propose any measures in case of theft or misplacement?

More importantly, do you think the federal government has the constitutional authority to put such a program in place? If any individual state does not want to participate in such a program, what happens to your plan?

~Max
  #12  
Old 09-18-2019, 02:37 AM
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PDF? On a card? How very 2005.

In this hypercloud digital world, there's nothing that can't be done with a simple eye/fingerprint record, and a central government database. We're already there in many instances - plastic and PDFs are ridiculously insecure. Which is why even paying for things on plastic is going out the window.
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:53 AM
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Really? I work in a big box store. Only a small minority of our transactions are wireless. Around 1/3 still involve cash in part or whole, most of the rest use plastic (we still get a few paper checks).

I think the "first adopters" and high tech cutting edge folks tend to over-estimate their numbers.
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Old 09-18-2019, 03:00 AM
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Doesn't the Real ID act serve the same purpose as a national ID card? Do we need another law passed mandating a national ID card?
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Old 09-18-2019, 03:28 AM
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I fully believe the RealID is a stealth national ID card.
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Old 09-18-2019, 04:22 AM
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Is this one of those weird American things again? Because in Germany having personal ID on hand is perfectly normal and accepted. There's a national ID, and pretty much everyone gets one. The fact that, in the US, there are a great many things you need ID for (including, as of late in many places in the US, voting) makes the existence of a national ID program pretty reasonable.

Hell, Social Security is basically used as a really shitty national ID already.

Not that the reasons listed above are necessarily good reasons, but the idea that a country can demand photo ID for such a fundamental right as voting and then proceed to not provide one is just beyond asinine.
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:08 AM
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"Show us your papers!"

Fuck that!
With ICE, we are very literally already there and have been for some time.
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  #18  
Old 09-18-2019, 05:11 AM
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Really? I work in a big box store. Only a small minority of our transactions are wireless. Around 1/3 still involve cash in part or whole, most of the rest use plastic (we still get a few paper checks).

I think the "first adopters" and high tech cutting edge folks tend to over-estimate their numbers.
I'm in Europe. There's some stores here which don't even accept cash anymore. Checks are obsolete - major stores don't accept them. Retailers in my town universally use wireless / contactless transactions.
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:13 AM
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Is this one of those weird American things again? Because in Germany having personal ID on hand is perfectly normal and accepted. There's a national ID, and pretty much everyone gets one. The fact that, in the US, there are a great many things you need ID for (including, as of late in many places in the US, voting) makes the existence of a national ID program pretty reasonable.

Hell, Social Security is basically used as a really shitty national ID already.

Not that the reasons listed above are necessarily good reasons, but the idea that a country can demand photo ID for such a fundamental right as voting and then proceed to not provide one is just beyond asinine.
We don't have ID cards in the UK, and there's little we ever need to show ID for - maybe trying to buy alcohol if you're under 21. Even if we get stopped by traffic police, we have seven days in which to present ID at a police station. We don't show ID to vote (just recite your address). I never carry photo ID.

Last edited by SanVito; 09-18-2019 at 05:14 AM.
  #20  
Old 09-18-2019, 07:14 AM
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-- at federal expense -- a national ID card
They're free!!!

  #21  
Old 09-18-2019, 07:30 AM
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Better yet - do away with the cards and go with implants. Or maybe forehead tattoos. What could possibly be the harm?

I think that an inherent element of the concept of "freedom" so dear to many (most?) Americans, is the ability to be free from government to the greatest extent possible, other than to the extent YOU wish to give up that freedom for certain purposes.
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:52 AM
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Or maybe forehead tattoos. What could possibly be the harm?
A nation of people with bangs.
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Old 09-18-2019, 08:07 AM
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A nation of people with bangs.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:31 AM
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Is this one of those weird American things again? Because in Germany having personal ID on hand is perfectly normal and accepted. There's a national ID, and pretty much everyone gets one. The fact that, in the US, there are a great many things you need ID for (including, as of late in many places in the US, voting) makes the existence of a national ID program pretty reasonable.

Hell, Social Security is basically used as a really shitty national ID already.

Not that the reasons listed above are necessarily good reasons, but the idea that a country can demand photo ID for such a fundamental right as voting and then proceed to not provide one is just beyond asinine.
American identity documents are issued by regional authorities (eg: driver's license), with the exception of the social security card for working citizens and the federal passport for travelers. There is a federal framework as to the minimum requirements to present regional identification for federal purposes (the aforementioned Real ID Act).

Also of relevance, most voter identification laws are also regional. The federal government does not require voter identification except when initially verifying a new voter who registers by mail (as opposed to in person).

~Max
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:59 AM
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American identity documents are issued by regional authorities (eg: driver's license), with the exception of the social security card for working citizens and the federal passport for travelers. There is a federal framework as to the minimum requirements to present regional identification for federal purposes (the aforementioned Real ID Act).

Also of relevance, most voter identification laws are also regional. The federal government does not require voter identification except when initially verifying a new voter who registers by mail (as opposed to in person).

~Max
Okay, granted, but... people don't treat the individual states as though their borders tend to matter very much. Going from Tennessee to Kentucky (or, for that matter, from Maine to Arizona) is seen less as "traveling from one country to another" and more "moving across the country". And this causes problems when your ID in one state suddenly isn't good in another state for whatever stupid reason. This is one of those things I really don't like about federalism - instead of one bureaucracy to deal with, now you have 50.
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:45 PM
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Is this one of those weird American things again? Because in Germany having personal ID on hand is perfectly normal and accepted.
Hell, even our developing-world asses can manage it...
I just wish they'd roll this and the driver's license into one card.
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:48 PM
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Okay, granted, but... people don't treat the individual states as though their borders tend to matter very much. Going from Tennessee to Kentucky (or, for that matter, from Maine to Arizona) is seen less as "traveling from one country to another" and more "moving across the country".
Right, that is how it is supposed to be. The freedom to move between states is considered a right of the people protected by Article IV of the Constitution.


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And this causes problems when your ID in one state suddenly isn't good in another state for whatever stupid reason. This is one of those things I really don't like about federalism - instead of one bureaucracy to deal with, now you have 50.
We do have the Real ID act for federal purposes, but if your state doesn't comply (there are good reasons not to) then yeah, it's a pain. A birth certificate + drivers license or birth cirtificate + voter registration + Form DS-71 (identity witness affidavit) can net you a passport, though.

~Max
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:24 PM
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Okay, granted, but... people don't treat the individual states as though their borders tend to matter very much. Going from Tennessee to Kentucky (or, for that matter, from Maine to Arizona) is seen less as "traveling from one country to another" and more "moving across the country". And this causes problems when your ID in one state suddenly isn't good in another state for whatever stupid reason. This is one of those things I really don't like about federalism - instead of one bureaucracy to deal with, now you have 50.
When did you have an ID not honored by a different state?
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:29 PM
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The whole issue will soon be moot.

Facial recognition will not be stopped.
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:09 PM
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I'm in Europe. There's some stores here which don't even accept cash anymore. Checks are obsolete - major stores don't accept them. Retailers in my town universally use wireless / contactless transactions.
It helps that you folks in Europe have better/more secure/less expensive/etc. access to the web/cloud/internet.

Here in the states the whole thing is a mess and identity theft rampant.
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:11 PM
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Better yet - do away with the cards and go with implants. Or maybe forehead tattoos. What could possibly be the harm?
The harm is that you chip possession and pets/animals, and I don't want to be the government's chattel (that I might already be is arguable, but I'm still trying to resist).

Forcible tattooing by the government is a little to close to Nazis tattooing numbers on people for my comfort.

Or was that intended as sarcasm? I can't always tell.
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:34 PM
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Or was that intended as sarcasm? I can't always tell.
When was the last time you heard somebody seriously say "What could possibly be the harm?"
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:56 PM
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Have you ever worked in corporate America? It's a weekly thing, there.
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:01 PM
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Have you ever worked in corporate America? It's a weekly thing, there.
Yikes. I assume pianos fall regularly.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:38 PM
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The OP has been banned.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:58 PM
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The OP has been banned.
And that's going on his Permanent Record, too!
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:20 PM
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Doesn't the Real ID act serve the same purpose as a national ID card? Do we need another law passed mandating a national ID card?
Real ID is a stupid racist idea and so is this. The only reason is to hurt minorities, those that dont have the money or records to get one of these. And so they wont be able to vote, making the GOP happy and they become second class non-people.

This is a racist Republican Jim Crow idea.
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:24 PM
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In this Information Age, it would be a simple thing for the government to issue everyone in America -- at federal expense -- a national ID card, keyed to your SSN, and corresponding to a database in DC that would include a file on you with all your recorded interactions with public authorities -- your birth certificate, (public) school records, driving license/record, arrest records if any, citizenship/residency status, tax returns, etc. -- all saved in pdf, and which any (authorized) public official could call up by swiping your card.....
You do know that getting all the various birth certificate records by county is simply impossible right? So people without a copy will have to pay to get a copy- if they can. because of course native Americans, and other peoples dont always have them. The poor, the minorities.

This is a idea that would make the hate filled racist minds of the GOP chortle with glee as they have yet another reason to bring back Jim Crow laws.

And of course - "saved in pdf" means hackable. Easily hackable.

Bad idea.
  #39  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:01 AM
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Really? I work in a big box store. Only a small minority of our transactions are wireless. Around 1/3 still involve cash in part or whole, most of the rest use plastic (we still get a few paper checks).

I think the "first adopters" and high tech cutting edge folks tend to over-estimate their numbers.
No: when it comes to banking, they tend to be outside of That Country Where People Still Use Checks.

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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
It helps that you folks in Europe have better/more secure/less expensive/etc. access to the web/cloud/internet.

Here in the states the whole thing is a mess and identity theft rampant.
Less expensive, my ass, even before you account for income differential. And if by "better" you mean "faster" excuse me while I ROFL. As for identity theft oh, it happens...
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Last edited by Nava; 09-19-2019 at 02:04 AM.
  #40  
Old 09-19-2019, 06:11 AM
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You do know that getting all the various birth certificate records by county is simply impossible right? So people without a copy will have to pay to get a copy- if they can. because of course native Americans, and other peoples dont always have them. The poor, the minorities.
In a prior RealID thread it was brought up that not all birth records are by county in the US. Apparently, some states (Texas was one named) do it by state, New York City by the borough, there are about 40 cities that are not located in a county, and why this matters is that a state like Texas (or at least the DMV people who issue RealID's) seem incapable of imagining that not every does things exactly like they do, leading to government minions in one state refusing to acknowledge the official documents of another location as real and legitimate. Which is also a very real problem for people trying to obtain RealID's.

(Thank Og that the minion doing my RealID didn't actually read my birth certificate, otherwise she would likely have objected that no county was listed... as indeed, I was not born in a county, having emerged into existence in one of those "independent cities" I mentioned. I had enough other problems getting that piece of plastic.)
  #41  
Old 09-19-2019, 06:12 AM
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Less expensive, my ass, even before you account for income differential. And if by "better" you mean "faster" excuse me while I ROFL. As for identity theft oh, it happens...
It is certainly possible I have been misinformed on that point.
  #42  
Old 09-19-2019, 09:10 AM
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Real ID is a stupid racist idea and so is this. The only reason is to hurt minorities, those that dont have the money or records to get one of these. And so they wont be able to vote, making the GOP happy and they become second class non-people.

This is a racist Republican Jim Crow idea.
But Jim Crow laws were brought to us by the racist Democrats. Why would the Republicans steal their idea?
  #43  
Old 09-19-2019, 09:31 AM
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Facial recognition will not be stopped.
Which is really unfortunate; because it doesn't work all that well.

It'll improve over time, most likely; but I doubt it's ever going to be perfect.
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Old 09-19-2019, 01:19 PM
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But Jim Crow laws were brought to us by the racist Democrats. Why would the Republicans steal their idea?
Are you being sarcastic but forgot the emoticon?
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