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  #51  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:07 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Originally Posted by Malthus View Post
No - I think it was supposed to be perfumed.

Oddly enough, the Bible gives the exact recipe for making the stuff (allegedly handed down by God himself!). See Exodus 30:22-25:
I wouldn't call it an exact recipe because we don't know what the price per ounce was for any of those, do we?
  #52  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:12 PM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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I wouldn't call it an exact recipe because we don't know what the price per ounce was for any of those, do we?
"Shekel" is a weight, not a price in this case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblic...ight_and_coins

1 shekel = 15.86 grams (0.51 troy ounces).

Way we get "shekel" to mean "price" is this: the Bible was composed of stories that predate standardized coinage. Originally, a "shekel" was a particular weight of silver, not a milled coin.

Last edited by Malthus; 02-15-2018 at 02:14 PM.
  #53  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:20 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Originally Posted by Malthus View Post
"Shekel" is a weight, not a price in this case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblic...ight_and_coins

1 shekel = 15.86 grams (0.51 troy ounces).

Way we get "shekel" to mean "price" is this: the Bible was composed of stories that predate standardized coinage. Originally, a "shekel" was a particular weight of silver, not a milled coin.
[Johnny Carson]I did not know that![JC] Thanks.
  #54  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:43 PM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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[Johnny Carson]I did not know that![JC] Thanks.
It's an interesting area.

Apparently, standardized units of value based on particular standard weights of precious metals was the stage right before the creation of government-issued coinage.

As you can imagine, the temptation to cheat must have been great ... coins are useful at least in part because they are harder to cheat with than (say) a weighed bag of irregular bits of (alleged) silver.

In the OT, the writers sometimes specify prices as "shekels of silver", and sometimes just "shekels".
  #55  
Old 02-15-2018, 07:26 PM
UDS UDS is offline
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Originally Posted by Malthus View Post
"Shekel" is a weight, not a price in this case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblic...ight_and_coins

1 shekel = 15.86 grams (0.51 troy ounces).

Way we get "shekel" to mean "price" is this: the Bible was composed of stories that predate standardized coinage. Originally, a "shekel" was a particular weight of silver, not a milled coin.
Yes. The pound, the lira, the mark and no doubt many other currency units are named from measures of weight.
  #56  
Old 02-16-2018, 09:28 AM
DSeid DSeid is online now
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... coins are useful at least in part because they are harder to cheat with than (say) a weighed bag of irregular bits of (alleged) silver. ...
Unless of course you have a "Eureka!" moment.
  #57  
Old 02-16-2018, 09:52 AM
Pleonast Pleonast is offline
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I love the SDMB--where else can a question about the Messiah turn into a weight and measures discussion?
  #58  
Old 02-16-2018, 10:03 AM
Telemark Telemark is offline
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I love the SDMB--where else can a question about the Messiah turn into a weight and measures discussion?
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

And the obligatory Monty Python reference.
  #59  
Old 02-16-2018, 08:36 PM
Amendt Amendt is offline
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Jewish Messiah

Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion. I only have one thing to add. My old Rabbi used used to say, "When we beat our swords into pruning hooks...and lions lay with lambs...THEN, the Messiah will have come. THEN it will be a Messianic Age".
  #60  
Old 02-16-2018, 09:45 PM
DSeid DSeid is online now
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Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion. I only have one thing to add. My old Rabbi used used to say, "When we beat our swords into pruning hooks...and lions lay with lambs...THEN, the Messiah will have come. THEN it will be a Messianic Age".
And of course the sage Woody Allen added the commentary: "... and the lion will lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won’t get much sleep ..."
  #61  
Old 02-17-2018, 10:17 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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I love the SDMB--where else can a question about the Messiah turn into a weight and measures discussion?
There are tons of threads like this.
  #62  
Old 02-18-2018, 06:56 AM
tim314 tim314 is online now
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Somehow this never occurred to me to ask until now, but when did the belief that "the Messiah will rebuild the Temple" come about? If this predates the construction (or at least the destruction) of the Second Temple, then what did people think it meant during Second Temple times?
  #63  
Old 02-18-2018, 08:14 AM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is online now
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Somehow this never occurred to me to ask until now, but when did the belief that "the Messiah will rebuild the Temple" come about? If this predates the construction (or at least the destruction) of the Second Temple, then what did people think it meant during Second Temple times?
Likely around the time of the exile to Babylon (book of Jeremiah and Zechariah). The Messiah would have mirrored Moses' role in bringing Jews back from captivity in a foreign land and renewing the religion.

It does mean that either there was a rebuilding of the Temple without messiah, there was a messiah around 500BC or that throughout the life of the Second Temple, the Hebrews expected their current Temple to be destroyed.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 02-18-2018 at 08:17 AM.
  #64  
Old 02-19-2018, 12:22 PM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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Likely around the time of the exile to Babylon (book of Jeremiah and Zechariah). The Messiah would have mirrored Moses' role in bringing Jews back from captivity in a foreign land and renewing the religion.

It does mean that either there was a rebuilding of the Temple without messiah, there was a messiah around 500BC or that throughout the life of the Second Temple, the Hebrews expected their current Temple to be destroyed.
There was a messiah.

The messiah of the time was the man responsible for ending the Babylonian Captivity and returning the Jews from exile - and (allegedly) for funding the rebuilding of the Temple: namely, Cyrus the Persian.

He's specifically identified as a messiah in Isaiah 45:1-3:

Quote:
Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whom he has taken by his right hand to subdue nations before him and strip the loins of kings, to force gateways before him that their gates be closed no more: I will go before you levelling the heights. I will shatter the bronze gateways, smash the iron bars. I will give you the hidden treasures, the secret hoards, that you may know that I am the Lord.
This flattering description came because of the alleged "decree of Cyrus", which allowed the return of the Jews and the rebuilding of the Temple (even, allegedly, funding it).

The decree of Cyrus (whatever it actually stated) may be no more than general Persian imperial policy, of course - which the redactors of the OT took to mean quite a bit more.


According to Josephus, the Decree stated as follows:

Quote:
I have given leave to as many of the Jews that dwell in my country as please to return to their own country, and to rebuild their city, and to build the temple of God at Jerusalem on the same place where it was before. I have also sent my treasurer Mithridates, and Zorobabel, the governor of the Jews, that they may lay the foundations of the temple, and may build it sixty cubits high, and of the same latitude, making three edifices of polished stones, and one of the wood of the country, and the same order extends to the altar whereon they offer sacrifices to God. I require also that the expenses for these things may be given out of my revenues. Moreover, I have also sent the vessels which king Nebuchadnezzar pillaged out of the temple, and have given them to Mithridates the treasurer, and to Zorobabel the governor of the Jews, that they may have them carried to Jerusalem, and may restore them to the temple of God. Now their number is as follows: Fifty chargers of gold, and five hundred of silver; forty Thericlean cups of gold, and five hundred of silver; fifty basons of gold, and five hundred of silver; thirty vessels for pouring [the drink-offerings], and three hundred of silver; thirty vials of gold, and two thousand four hundred of silver; with a thousand other large vessels. (3) I permit them to have the same honor which they were used to have from their forefathers, as also for their small cattle, and for wine and oil, two hundred and five thousand and five hundred drachme; and for wheat flour, twenty thousand and five hundred artabae; and I give order that these expenses shall be given them out of the tributes due from Samaria. The priests shall also offer these sacrifices according to the laws of Moses in Jerusalem; and when they offer them, they shall pray to God for the preservation of the king and of his family, that the kingdom of Persia may continue. But my will is, that those who disobey these injunctions, and make them void, shall be hung upon a cross, and their substance brought into the king's treasury.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_...t_in_the_Bible
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