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  #51  
Old 08-19-2018, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidwithanR View Post
Because, well, that's what it is. It's a 19th-century fantasy novel written entirely in "fake Bible talk". Thou better believe thou it, yea, unto the uttermost, the real real uttermost, better thou it believing unto. Yea and verily.
Although I had been extremely devout up through early high school, I had never actually read the Book of Mormon other than reading verses in church. When I went on a mission, I decided to finally really read it.

I simply could not shake the feeling that it was Bible fan fiction. That was one of the final nails in the coffin for me.

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Mormons can't dance.
Sadly, ex-Mormons don't get any better!
  #52  
Old 08-19-2018, 07:49 AM
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I tried to read the Book of Mormon once. After about a million repeats of "and it came to pass" I did take a pass and quit reading.
  #53  
Old 08-19-2018, 08:26 AM
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I tried to read the Book of Mormon once. After about a million repeats of "and it came to pass" I did take a pass and quit reading.
That was my experience earlier this year.

I tried; I really did.
  #54  
Old 08-19-2018, 08:42 AM
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I thought you'd all get a chuckle out of this headline:


Stop calling us 'Mormons' or using 'LDS' abbreviation, says leader of Mormon Church
__________________
Where am I going, and why am I in this handbasket?
  #55  
Old 08-19-2018, 11:20 AM
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My daughter got a copy when she hung out with Mormons, uh, LDSers, uh yadda-yaddaers in junior high. Her conclusion was that they were nice but nuts.

I've got to put it in my SF collection some time along with the standard Bible. But then I'd have to read it, and I understand Mark Twain gave it a bad review.
SF seems a weird place for those books. Wouldn't fantasy make more sense? (Or mythology if you have enough books for a separate section.)
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:22 AM
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I tried to read the Book of Mormon once. After about a million repeats of "and it came to pass" I did take a pass and quit reading.
Always makes me think of this gem of KJV theology (video).
  #57  
Old 08-19-2018, 12:03 PM
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SF seems a weird place for those books. Wouldn't fantasy make more sense? (Or mythology if you have enough books for a separate section.)
Well, there is the common Mormon--sorry, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints-ian--belief that the Saved will ascend to the planet Kolob which is nearest to Heaven in the Celestical Kingdom, so that's pretty science-fiction-y. The CJCLDS claims that it is not official doctrine, but since Brigham Young among other authorities in the church hierarchy espoused literal belief in it and it is referenced in the Book of Abraham, it's kind of difficult to say it isn't a a part of Mormon belief.

I don't actually think that Mormonism is any more fake than any other religion, none of which have a shred of actual objective evidence to substantiate the idea of a supernatural creator, an afterlife, angels and seraphs, or any of the other fictions of religions; it is just more obviously fabricated than most religions, largely by dint of the relative newness of its traditions and the amateur writing of its texts, plus the history of Joseph Smith as a known prevaricator who grew up during a period and location of Adventism and Restorationism. It's traditions of false scholarship, and in particular the archeological expeditions to Mexico to substantiate purported prior societies, are demonstrably counterfactual, but then the Catholic Church had to abandon its entire view of cosmology and natural history with the advent of modern astronomy, paleontology, and modern evolutionary synthesis, which it did with great reluctance and comical equivocation.

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  #58  
Old 08-19-2018, 12:35 PM
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It's going to be an uphill battle.
  #59  
Old 08-19-2018, 04:24 PM
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SF seems a weird place for those books. Wouldn't fantasy make more sense? (Or mythology if you have enough books for a separate section.)
SF stands for Sorry Fantasy also.

I keep everything combined, since it is too hard to distinguish the border cases.
My Bible (filed under G for God, house pseudonym) is not that far from Towing Jehovah.
  #60  
Old 08-19-2018, 04:28 PM
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It's going to be an uphill battle.
The Times article today says their style guide is not going to change, so the LDSers will still be Mormons.
More believable than any revelation from any supposed god.
  #61  
Old 08-19-2018, 05:51 PM
F. U. Shakespeare F. U. Shakespeare is offline
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This is indeed an odd move.

If it's an attempt to get other Christians to admit that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (*) is the one true church of Christ, and the others heretics, well, good luck with that. IME that would be surprising - they seem to have been trying to find common ground with the rest of the world in the last decade or two.

If it's an attempt to get non-believers to give two hoots about the same issue, good luck with that too.

Could the current prophet maybe pull something like Joseph Smith did with those scrolls, which IIRC he said were in some language that's never existed (reformed Egyptian?), and say that God hears the preferred name when someone says the acronym?
  #62  
Old 08-19-2018, 06:05 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is offline
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This is indeed an odd move.

If it's an attempt to get other Christians to admit that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (*) is the one true church of Christ, and the others heretics, well, good luck with that. IME that would be surprising - they seem to have been trying to find common ground with the rest of the world in the last decade or two.
I was thinking, uh, less ‘sword’, and more ‘shield’. You know: imagine a guy saying “Mormon” as if it meant something other than “Christian”. And so the goal wouldn’t quite be to get One True Church Of Christ cachet; just to get “of Christ” cachet.
  #63  
Old 08-19-2018, 06:06 PM
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Well, there is the common Mormon--sorry, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints-ian--belief that the Saved will ascend to the planet Kolob which is nearest to Heaven in the Celestical Kingdom, so that's pretty science-fiction-y. The CJCLDS claims that it is not official doctrine, but since Brigham Young among other authorities in the church hierarchy espoused literal belief in it and it is referenced in the Book of Abraham, it's kind of difficult to say it isn't a a part of Mormon belief.
The first Mormon (or former Mormon) with whom I ever talked about Mormonism was a colleague of mine at one of my old jobs, in the late 1990s. She'd grown up in the faith, but left as an adult, and said that one of the things that they had been taught was, if a Mormon lived a sufficiently good and faithful life, when they died, they could become gods of their own worlds out in space. (I have no idea how widespread that belief was, or not.)

Last edited by kenobi 65; 08-19-2018 at 06:07 PM.
  #64  
Old 08-19-2018, 06:15 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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Although I had been extremely devout up through early high school, I had never actually read the Book of Mormon other than reading verses in church. When I went on a mission, I decided to finally really read it.

I simply could not shake the feeling that it was Bible fan fiction. That was one of the final nails in the coffin for me.
That is a VERY apt description. Smith even has that special fanfic way of completely missing the style of the original, but him thinking he's nailed it because he uses some of the same catchphrases, as Baker described. I think you hit the nail in the coffin on the head.
  #65  
Old 08-19-2018, 06:15 PM
Nawth Chucka Nawth Chucka is offline
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This is indeed an odd move.

If it's an attempt to get other Christians to admit that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (*) is the one true church of Christ, and the others heretics, well, good luck with that. IME that would be surprising - they seem to have been trying to find common ground with the rest of the world in the last decade or two.

If it's an attempt to get non-believers to give two hoots about the same issue, good luck with that too.

Could the current prophet maybe pull something like Joseph Smith did with those scrolls, which IIRC he said were in some language that's never existed (reformed Egyptian?), and say that God hears the preferred name when someone says the acronym?
*cough*Heavenly Father*cough

The church wants this name change malarkey talked about instead of the various troubles it's having right now; BYU campus cops now have the same requirements under FOIA as any other law enforcement in the state; BYU students who report being sexually assaulted are routinely turned in to the Honor Code office to see what the victim's part was and how they should repent; the church knew about a bishop assaulting women and did nothing about it, in fact they protected him from consequences; these are just those w/ an active lawsuit.
There's also bad press around ProtectLDSChildren's movement to end bishops asking sexual questions of children as young as 8; the church's discriminatory policy on children of LGBT couples (making them wait to be baptized until they're both 18 and have stated they don't agree w/ their parents' lifestyle, while everyone else can get dunked at age 8); the information that the church holds $32 Billion in stocks alone while its charitable giving is a fraction of that (and well below the 10% they require of their members to be able to fully worship).
They'd MUCH rather talk about semantics than real issues. It's a distraction tactic.
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Old 08-19-2018, 06:16 PM
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The first Mormon (or former Mormon) with whom I ever talked about Mormonism was a colleague of mine at one of my old jobs, in the late 1990s. She'd grown up in the faith, but left as an adult, and said that one of the things that they had been taught was, if a Mormon lived a sufficiently good and faithful life, when they died, they could become gods of their own worlds out in space. (I have no idea how widespread that belief was, or not.)
AFAIK that is official doctrine.
  #67  
Old 08-19-2018, 06:17 PM
Nawth Chucka Nawth Chucka is offline
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The first Mormon (or former Mormon) with whom I ever talked about Mormonism was a colleague of mine at one of my old jobs, in the late 1990s. She'd grown up in the faith, but left as an adult, and said that one of the things that they had been taught was, if a Mormon lived a sufficiently good and faithful life, when they died, they could become gods of their own worlds out in space. (I have no idea how widespread that belief was, or not.)
Not every Mormon, only the men can have their own planet. The church is a different place for men than it is for women.
  #68  
Old 08-19-2018, 06:27 PM
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I tried to read the Book of Mormon once. After about a million repeats of "and it came to pass" I did take a pass and quit reading.
The best modern use of that phrase would have to be NFL commentators.

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And lo, the running game was paltry; yea, not one yard gained the Running Backs, nor any inches. And in that day it came to pass that Manning did say "LORD, it is I, and I have come to pass". And lo, it came to pass that verily he had come to pass, which much rejoiced the Wide Receivers, some of which were indeed most wide, and all flesh did behold it, at least all flesh which did sit in the La-Z-Boy of that which is called by the Gentiles "Monday Night Football". And God saw that it was pretty good, I guess.
  #69  
Old 08-19-2018, 06:43 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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This is indeed an odd move.

If it's an attempt to get other Christians to admit that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (*) is the one true church of Christ, and the others heretics, well, good luck with that. IME that would be surprising - they seem to have been trying to find common ground with the rest of the world in the last decade or two.

If it's an attempt to get non-believers to give two hoots about the same issue, good luck with that too.
It might be none of the above. It might be a ruse to distract other Morons, to keep them from (a) ratting and (b) leaving.

Probably the best way to fix the Latter-day Saints is to publish their real doctrines and real practices widely. For ex-Morons to give detailed accounts of what goes on.
  #70  
Old 08-19-2018, 06:48 PM
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That is a VERY apt description. Smith even has that special fanfic way of completely missing the style of the original, but him thinking he's nailed it because he uses some of the same catchphrases, as Baker described. I think you hit the nail in the coffin on the head.
Well, given all this helpful input, the Book of Mormon just fell about a thousand slots on my to read list.
Now I'll never get my own planet.
  #71  
Old 08-19-2018, 06:50 PM
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Well, there is the common Mormon--sorry, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints-ian--belief that the Saved will ascend to the planet Kolob which is nearest to Heaven in the Celestical Kingdom, so that's pretty science-fiction-y. The CJCLDS claims that it is not official doctrine, but since Brigham Young among other authorities in the church hierarchy espoused literal belief in it and it is referenced in the Book of Abraham, it's kind of difficult to say it isn't a a part of Mormon belief.
It's easier to nail the infamous Mormon green jello to walls than to clarify Mormon theology.

Kolob is actually the star closest to where God lives. After the second coming, everyone worthy and all animals which have died will be resurrected (happily including Spot who was taken to the farm, but sadly including all the cockroaches as well -- they never specified this, but it's been said to include all animals) here on Earth!
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They'd MUCH rather talk about semantics than real issues. It's a distraction tactic.
Who knows. It could very well be the bubble the top leaders live in, in which they think that people outside the bubble will pay attention to them.
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Not every Mormon, only the men can have their own planet. The church is a different place for men than it is for women.
But only men who have multiple wives can have planets, if Brigham Young is to be believed. Of course, he also believed that Adam was God.
  #72  
Old 08-19-2018, 10:09 PM
Nawth Chucka Nawth Chucka is offline
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It might be none of the above. It might be a ruse to distract other Morons, to keep them from (a) ratting and (b) leaving.

Probably the best way to fix the Latter-day Saints is to publish their real doctrines and real practices widely. For ex-Morons to give detailed accounts of what goes on.
How wide is the internet? That's where everything is, right down to the temple rituals and their proscribed costumes, secret handshakes, pay stubs (unpaid clergy my butt), new names, various rewrites of the Book of Abraham, accounts from Smith's wives (even the 14 year-old, I think) - it's all online (except footage of a Second Anointing where a man is made sinless and his place in the Celestial Kingdom sure). Stuff that everyday Mormons weren't taught is out in the open for them to stumble across if they do what they've been asked not to do - research to satisfy their questions instead of 'reading the Book of Mormon every day' to strengthen their testimony.
This church meets the BITE model of a cult. And I'm a little non-Mormon island in a Mormon sea here in Utah.

ETA - to add to TokyoBayer's post, it should go w/o saying that women can only be sealed to one man at a time (on earth or in the afterlife). She has to get her first husband's permission to be sealed to a second husband after divorce, if they were sealed in the temple.

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  #73  
Old 08-20-2018, 05:08 AM
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It’s pretty easy now to find where all the bodies are buried, as it were. There are many sources online as well as ex-Mormon forums and podcasts.

Despite this, most of the faithful remain so, although there is very little growth from converts outside of a few developing countries.

Checking a few places online, it looks like the ex-Mormons are mocking this, as anticipated; the liberal Mormons are rolling their collective eyes; and the TBM (true believing Mormons) are now TBmoTCoJCoLDS, although they would not like the abbreviation.
  #74  
Old 08-20-2018, 12:28 PM
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Speaking of Mormonism, it might be the perfect religion for a nevernude.
  #75  
Old 08-20-2018, 12:38 PM
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I grew up Mormon, not anymore, really don't have anything against them.

This is a dumb move. They've done too many campaigns self-identifying as "Mormon". For the most part, if you didn't like Mormons before, this isn't going to make you like them any more. If you liked them before, this dilutes "the brand".

My guess is when Nelson dies (which can't be too long hes 93 ffs), this will go right back to the way it was.

What are they going to call the people against the church? Anti Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Sainters?
  #76  
Old 08-20-2018, 01:51 PM
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I am no longer an American.
From now on, please refer to me as a United States Of American.
  #77  
Old 08-20-2018, 02:06 PM
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What are they going to call the people against the church? Anti Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Sainters?
Latter-Day Sinners, of course.
  #78  
Old 08-20-2018, 02:30 PM
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What are they going to call the people against the church? Anti Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Sainters?
Conscious.

OR

Just take out the S and add an apostrophe:

Latter-day Ain'ts.

Last edited by DavidwithanR; 08-20-2018 at 02:32 PM.
  #79  
Old 08-20-2018, 03:27 PM
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What are they going to call the people against the church? Anti Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Sainters?
I don't know what they will now call those of us who are not part of their church, but I know that we are not saints.
  #80  
Old 08-20-2018, 04:12 PM
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I don't know what they will now call those of us who are not part of their church, but I know that we are not saints.
I dunno. I rate your chances at least slightly higher than those still in the grip.
  #81  
Old 08-20-2018, 04:41 PM
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I dunno. I rate your chances at least slightly higher than those still in the grip.
As a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I can positively declare that we alkies are not saints. It says so in our big book.

In fact, when one of our recent conferences (which I attended) was held in New Orleans, the official motto for that conference was "We are not saints".



I make no pronouncements about the sanctity about those LDs/Mormom/whatever types

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  #82  
Old 08-20-2018, 04:42 PM
Nawth Chucka Nawth Chucka is offline
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I don't know what they will now call those of us who are not part of their church, but I know that we are not saints.
Laughably enough, we're gentiles; or worse, agents of Satan.
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Old 08-20-2018, 04:48 PM
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Used to be that the ones that have left the fold were called Jack-Mormons.

So, obviously they are now known as Jack-Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints.

Don't mean to hi-Jack the thread.
  #84  
Old 08-20-2018, 04:53 PM
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Laughably enough, we're gentiles; or worse, agents of Satan.
It used to really irk my jewish friends to be called 'gentiles' by the mormons. Talk about ignorance of history . . .
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:04 PM
Nawth Chucka Nawth Chucka is offline
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It used to really irk my jewish friends to be called 'gentiles' by the mormons. Talk about ignorance of history . . .
Oh, they're not ignorant of it; they simply believe their historic Zion came after that of the Jews (who are descended from Cain via the Lamanites [a fake race created as a cover story to explain keeping people of color in powerless positions] so they have a greater sinful nature to overcome) b/c don'tcha know Jesus came to the Americas to minister to the Native Americans?
In practice, to be fair, all the years I've lived in Utah I've never been called a Gentile by an LDS-oriented person, or heard them use the term. They just say non-Mormon.
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:04 PM
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It used to really irk my jewish friends to be called 'gentiles' by the mormons. Talk about ignorance of history . . .
That is pretty extreme... Though I guess in their defence literally "gentiles" means little more than "the other guys", it's a word that everyone knows what it really means. Except a chosen few hahaha.
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:04 PM
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As an aside:

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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
As a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I can positively declare that we alkies are not saints. It says so in our big book.

In fact, when one of our recent conferences (which I attended) was held in New Orleans, the official motto for that conference was "We are not saints".

At first glance it would seem rather ballsy to hold an AA conference in New Orleans.

Then you realize just looking around you’ll see plenty of live examples of what can go wrong to act as a deterrent.
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:10 PM
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As a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I can positively declare that we alkies are not saints. It says so in our big book.

In fact, when one of our recent conferences (which I attended) was held in New Orleans, the official motto for that conference was "We are not saints".

Next conference will be held in New Jersey during hockey season - motto obsolete?
  #89  
Old 08-20-2018, 06:11 PM
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If you Google "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", the top 3 hits are Wikipedia, lds.org and mormon.org.
I know some of the guys that work on their SEO.

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Would newspapers, like the NYT, honor that request? That is, will the style guide recommend using "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" instead of "Mormon" or even "LDS"?
In the past, they have not (honored the request).
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:15 PM
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I will now refuse to call them anything but “Mormons.”
  #91  
Old 08-20-2018, 06:15 PM
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Oh, they're not ignorant of it; they simply believe their historic Zion came after that of the Jews (who are descended from Cain via the Lamanites [a fake race created as a cover story to explain keeping people of color in powerless positions] so they have a greater sinful nature to overcome) b/c don'tcha know Jesus came to the Americas to minister to the Native Americans?
In practice, to be fair, all the years I've lived in Utah I've never been called a Gentile by an LDS-oriented person, or heard them use the term. They just say non-Mormon.
It's usually "non-member" in everyday usage. I suppose "non-Mormon" is / was fairly common too. "Gentile" is rather rarely used, and probably almost as often used in the context of "Jew and Gentile" as it is used to refer to non-members as "Gentiles".
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:17 PM
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I will now refuse to call them anything but “Mormons.”
*shrug* Given some of the derogatory names posted in this thread, if we could get more people to adopt this practice, it would probably be a net improvement.
  #93  
Old 08-20-2018, 06:34 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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Last I checked regarding US law, truth is a legitimate defense against libel charges.

Last edited by DavidwithanR; 08-20-2018 at 06:34 PM.
  #94  
Old 08-20-2018, 06:35 PM
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Riemann Riemann is offline
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I think they should just embrace the whole "Mormon" thing, and go for brand recognition. How about changing the name of Salt Lake City to Mordor?
  #95  
Old 08-20-2018, 07:02 PM
Nawth Chucka Nawth Chucka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riemann View Post
I think they should just embrace the whole "Mormon" thing, and go for brand recognition. How about changing the name of Salt Lake City to Mordor?
There's already The Morridor; Idaho, Utah, Nevada and Arizona, where there are a shitload of practicing Mormons (including the infamous polygamist Short Creek area).
Funnily enough, Salt Lake City itself is comparatively liberal and incredibly LGBT friendly. At the same time the church has its big moneymaker, City Creek Mall in SLC; a report I heard when it opened was that it was expected to earn a billion dollars for the church in its first decade.
Can you imagine the confusion if the Catholic church built The Mall of America? That's what's in my head each time I see City Creek.
  #96  
Old 08-20-2018, 07:08 PM
StusBlues StusBlues is offline
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I was just talking to my boss today about how I try to use LDS as the preferred nomenclature, but it's kind of useless if nobody knows what it means.

Intriguingly enough, he was asking if I was dating a particular friend. I said no, we were fundamentally incompatible because she was LDS. He tried to puzzle out what that meant (his first try was "Lesbian Dyke Slut") before I clued him in.
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  #97  
Old 08-20-2018, 07:20 PM
Grestarian Grestarian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidwithanR View Post
It might be none of the above. It might be a ruse to distract other Morons, to keep them from (a) ratting and (b) leaving.

Probably the best way to fix the Latter-day Saints is to publish their real doctrines and real practices widely. For ex-Mormons to give detailed accounts of what goes on.
Hmm....that didn't seem to rejuvenate the Catholic church very well*.
Why would anyone think it would help the aspiring usurpers?

--G?

* Someone told me last week that there's a new wave of predatory pedophile Priest stories surfacing lately.
  #98  
Old 08-20-2018, 08:16 PM
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TokyoBayer TokyoBayer is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nawth Chucka View Post
Oh, they're not ignorant of it; they simply believe their historic Zion came after that of the Jews (who are descended from Cain via the Lamanites [a fake race created as a cover story to explain keeping people of color in powerless positions] so they have a greater sinful nature to overcome) b/c don'tcha know Jesus came to the Americas to minister to the Native Americans?
In practice, to be fair, all the years I've lived in Utah I've never been called a Gentile by an LDS-oriented person, or heard them use the term. They just say non-Mormon.
Hmmmmm. I'm not sure I've seen more misconceptions at one time!

So:

The Jews are not descended from Cain.

The Lamanites are descendents of Jew as are the Nephites. These both come from the same literal family, with Nephi, the obvious stand-in for Joseph Smith, raising up a race of "white and delightsome" people while the Lamanites were indeed cursed with dark skin because they were evil. And God doesn't like the seeds of different races mixed.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s with a somewhat different version of Mormonism than what's more mainstream now. Back then, it was widely accepted and preached by leaders that the Blacks were of the race of Cain, and were cursed.

However, the curse was because in the pre-existance, (where we all were) there was a huge fight, Jesus and us followers prevailed. Satan in his followers were kicked out. Them Blacks were fence sitters and weren't worthy of getting the priesthood or going to the temple.

I have no idea how widespread this belief is now. The ban on the priesthood / temple attendance was lifted in 1978 and maybe enough time has passed that it's fading away.
  #99  
Old 08-20-2018, 08:44 PM
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TreacherousCretin TreacherousCretin is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baker View Post
I tried to read the Book of Mormon once. After about a million repeats of "and it came to pass" I did take a pass and quit reading.
Mark Twain, commenting on the Book Of Mormon, in "Roughing It":

The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures.... Whenever he found his speech growing too modern -- which was about every sentence or two -- he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as "exceeding sore," "and it came to pass," etc., and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to pass" was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.
  #100  
Old 08-20-2018, 09:12 PM
kopek kopek is offline
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Anyone else read the title of the thread and flash on the Pluto-no-longer-a-planet-scientist-mad-with-power bit from Robot Chicken?

Just me? Oh well.
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