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  #51  
Old 05-20-2020, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
I know what a workout is.

Not only have I never heard this 'churching-up' expression from my wife or Southern Baptist in-laws in the three decades we've been family, but Google doesn't turn it up either, with or without the 'good ole.'

That's why I'm confused about this expression.

Good ole churching-up = good ole praise/worship/sermon/praying. You know, the activities people commonly do at church.

I'm sorry that "churching-up" has negative connotations to you. But I didn't mean anything offensive by it. Honest.
  #52  
Old 05-20-2020, 08:19 PM
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Here is what Urban Dictionary has to say about church it up:
You may recall this scene from the Blues Brothers Movie. Jake just got out of prison and Elwood takes him to see "the Penguin." Slightly NSFW for swearing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDcP9uSMra4



Afterward, the brothers are talking to Curtis, with Jake complaining he doesn't see the point in going to church. (I can't find a clip for it, though.)

Curtis : Well, the Sister was right. You boys could use a little churching up. Slide on down to the Triple Rock, and catch Rev. Cleophus. You boys listen to what he's got to say.

Jake : Curtis, I don't want to listen to no jive-ass preacher talking to me about Heaven and Hell.
---
So "you need churching up"="you need to go to church." But a bit more colorful or emphatic. That's how I read the expression.
  #53  
Old 05-20-2020, 10:12 PM
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[i]None of us know TubaDiva.
Um, I do. Met her in real life and everything. She's something of a friend. Does that mean I win the thread?
  #54  
Old 05-21-2020, 02:46 AM
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Two more incidents of people getting sick from attending church services.

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Two churches in Georgia and Texas that reopened recently amid the novel coronavirus pandemic have since closed their doors again after churchgoers and religious leaders tested positive for the virus, according to multiple media reports.
in Texas and Georgia where the release of lockdowns has been more aggressive than some other places.

If these affected only the people that attended the services, it would be one thing, but this increases the risk to everyone in those communities.
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Old 05-21-2020, 03:45 AM
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The idea that not going to church services harms the church community is silly, because the services are not where the community stuff happens. The services can very well be watched and participated in online, including the part where you talk aftrwards. And the community stuff can be replicated with online meetings. Sure, you lose some activities, but nothing of spiritual significance.

I find it hard to understand anyone who wants to go to the church building right now. It seems to me that they've put too much stock into the building, and forget that God is everywhere. You can pray together as long as you are agreeing in prayer at the same time. God is not restricted by distance.

This story shows that, even if they are maintaining the required distances, being together for an extended period increases the likelihood, as do sever church activities like communal singing. Better to stay at home. I will be showing this to my dad, so maybe hell stay home and not put my at risk mom at in necessarily more risk.
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Old 05-21-2020, 08:53 AM
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Um, I do. Met her in real life and everything. She's something of a friend. Does that mean I win the thread?
Sure, it's all yours - you can take it home with you! (Gift wrapping not provided.)

So other than not pining for the fjords, how the hell are you doing?
  #57  
Old 05-21-2020, 10:06 AM
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As Jesus said, we do not worship the Lord on this mountain or in Jerusalem, but in spirit and in truth.
Bingo. Or should I say BINGO!

I will never understand religious people that feel they need to be shepherded by some guy in a building.
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  #58  
Old 05-21-2020, 11:58 AM
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The idea that not going to church services harms the church community is silly, because the services are not where the community stuff happens. The services can very well be watched and participated in online, including the part where you talk aftrwards. And the community stuff can be replicated with online meetings. Sure, you lose some activities, but nothing of spiritual significance.

I find it hard to understand anyone who wants to go to the church building right now. It seems to me that they've put too much stock into the building, and forget that God is everywhere. You can pray together as long as you are agreeing in prayer at the same time. God is not restricted by distance.

This story shows that, even if they are maintaining the required distances, being together for an extended period increases the likelihood, as do sever church activities like communal singing. Better to stay at home. I will be showing this to my dad, so maybe hell stay home and not put my at risk mom at in necessarily more risk.
My church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) stopped services and any kind of in-person group meeting in mid-March.

It's hard and Zoom meetings aren't really a substitute. This is something that may be difficult for people who aren't church-goers to understand (I certainly didn't understand it before I started attending church regularly), but a big part of community is knowing the people in your community, being present in their lives, and the way that this is possible because of the way you interact at church -- even if it's only to exchange a couple of thoughts with the person you happen to pass in the hallway, it happens on a regular habit-forming basis, and so I know a lot about the people in my church community just from the little tidbits I get every week. And because of the way it's set up so that we are all constantly serving each other, sometimes through extra-church service like offering to babysit for someone who really needs it, sometimes through intra-church service like how I put together musical numbers for services and other people teach my kiddos, etc.

Is it possible to do community-building things and community service in a church community in the absence of church meetings and when we can't personally visit with each other? Sure! I run a scripture-reading email discussion group, the kiddos' church teacher left Easter treats on our doorstep, there are dinners being delivered to a new mother... But it's isolating and it's hard. Phone and Zoom have an activation energy that means it doesn't lead to natural sharing the way that it sort of falls out naturally out of having regular church every week. And I've kind of lost touch with a bunch of people... I keep in touch with my good friends, but before church ended I could have told you in broad strokes what was going on in the lives of probably at least tens of people (this woman just had surgery, that man just got remarried, etc.), and now I just have no idea about what may have happened in the last couple of months (unless it was something big; new babies and deaths get sent out on the ward mailing list).

And we're not having church services and we are sheltering in place, because we do believe in protecting the weak and vulnerable. But there's a very real deficit there that I'm not sure people understand who haven't been part of a community like this. I know I wouldn't have understood it if I weren't part of one.

(Because I'm a weird heterodox person, I'm not even going to go into the Sacrament/communion and the meaningfulness it has that is very hard to replicate -- if you want me to be totally honest I don't care about it, but I know people who really really do.)

And we don't pass a collection plate, either, so that's not at all a thing.
  #59  
Old 05-21-2020, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by raspberry hunter View Post
My church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) stopped services and any kind of in-person group meeting in mid-March.

It's hard and Zoom meetings aren't really a substitute. This is something that may be difficult for people who aren't church-goers to understand (I certainly didn't understand it before I started attending church regularly), but a big part of community is knowing the people in your community, being present in their lives, and the way that this is possible because of the way you interact at church -- even if it's only to exchange a couple of thoughts with the person you happen to pass in the hallway, it happens on a regular habit-forming basis, and so I know a lot about the people in my church community just from the little tidbits I get every week. And because of the way it's set up so that we are all constantly serving each other, sometimes through extra-church service like offering to babysit for someone who really needs it, sometimes through intra-church service like how I put together musical numbers for services and other people teach my kiddos, etc.

Is it possible to do community-building things and community service in a church community in the absence of church meetings and when we can't personally visit with each other? Sure! I run a scripture-reading email discussion group, the kiddos' church teacher left Easter treats on our doorstep, there are dinners being delivered to a new mother... But it's isolating and it's hard. Phone and Zoom have an activation energy that means it doesn't lead to natural sharing the way that it sort of falls out naturally out of having regular church every week. And I've kind of lost touch with a bunch of people... I keep in touch with my good friends, but before church ended I could have told you in broad strokes what was going on in the lives of probably at least tens of people (this woman just had surgery, that man just got remarried, etc.), and now I just have no idea about what may have happened in the last couple of months (unless it was something big; new babies and deaths get sent out on the ward mailing list).

And we're not having church services and we are sheltering in place, because we do believe in protecting the weak and vulnerable. But there's a very real deficit there that I'm not sure people understand who haven't been part of a community like this. I know I wouldn't have understood it if I weren't part of one.

(Because I'm a weird heterodox person, I'm not even going to go into the Sacrament/communion and the meaningfulness it has that is very hard to replicate -- if you want me to be totally honest I don't care about it, but I know people who really really do.)

And we don't pass a collection plate, either, so that's not at all a thing.
Thank you for posting this -- it's congruent with some of the things that I had been considering posting to this thread.

Preface: I'm an uber-liberal Methodist, belonging to an uber-liberal UMC church. We have been doing online-only worship since March, and I do feel that in-person worship, even with precautions, is likely to be a really bad idea for many churches for some time to come. In addition, I have several friends who are ministers (in both liberal and conservative Christian churches), and I've been speaking with them about how they're handling things, and what their congregations have been saying.

First of all, for many people of faith, it's not just that they want and need "churchin'" in their lives, it's that a key part of their faith is their connection with their particular church community. Watching some smarmy televangelist on TV isn't really a replacement for that -- he's not *their* pastor, and that's not *their* church.

Most of them are probably lifelong adherents to their faith, and many are still members of the same church that they grew up in. Going to worship service has been part of the rhythm of their lives for as long as they can remember. Those of you who have noted that you don't need to gather together, in person, as a group to worship and pray aren't wrong, but for the faithful, even if they rationally know this, to not be able to worship in person still can feel emotionally and spiritually hollow.

Many of the members of our congregation (and many congregations) are older, and may not be good at navigating their way online to a Zoom or Youtube gathering that's been set up by their church (or may not be able to get online at all).

And, as raspberry hunter notes, what can still be missing, even if you're able to join the Zoom worship for your church, is the social and community aspects of being part of a congregation. In the same way that it's harder to feel connected right now with loved ones whom you can now only see on a computer screen, this situation makes worship as a community harder, too.

To add to all of the above, which are, IMO, reasonable and understandable reactions to the situation, there are also what I think are unreasonable opinions held by some people of faith, including:
- The belief that any goverment prohibition on gatherings is an infringement on the right to worship freely (and, by extension, the belief that churches should be exempt from those prohibitions)
- The belief that this is all a liberal/atheist plot to keep Christians from practicing their faith

Last edited by kenobi 65; 05-21-2020 at 01:44 PM.
  #60  
Old 05-22-2020, 09:05 AM
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And, as raspberry hunter notes, what can still be missing, even if you're able to join the Zoom worship for your church, is the social and community aspects of being part of a congregation. In the same way that it's harder to feel connected right now with loved ones whom you can now only see on a computer screen, this situation makes worship as a community harder, too.
There are three things that loom large in my life, Cons, Burning Man, and volunteering at the local natural history museum. All of them are a community, all of them have a large person-to-person contact component, all of them but one* are not happening. The latter two are making do with electronic communication, the Cons' community is too diffuse for any action (so far) on that front.

The not-in-person meet-ups are in no way a substitute for the "real thing" but all three communities have sucked it up for now. That the faithful's community is religious in no way makes their gathering any less of a bad idea. That they are putting not only themselves but the rest of us as well does not make the bad idea any better.

*TusCon 47 is scheduled for mid-November and the committee is monitoring the situation hopefully.
  #61  
Old 05-22-2020, 11:06 AM
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The not-in-person meet-ups are in no way a substitute for the "real thing" but all three communities have sucked it up for now. That the faithful's community is religious in no way makes their gathering any less of a bad idea. That they are putting not only themselves but the rest of us as well does not make the bad idea any better.
Don't get me wrong -- I think that in-person worship is, in most cases, a really bad idea right now. I was trying to explain why it's so important to people of faith, and why suggestions like "just watch some evangelist on TV if you need church" are really poor substitutes.
  #62  
Old 05-22-2020, 11:32 AM
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Yeah, this thread has some people talking about how meeting in person is really important to some people and "virtual church" isn't the same at all, and other people talking about how in-person worship is a really bad, irresponsible idea right now, and they're both right.

Last edited by Thudlow Boink; 05-22-2020 at 11:32 AM.
  #63  
Old 05-22-2020, 12:15 PM
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The idea that not going to church services harms the church community is silly, because the services are not where the community stuff happens. The services can very well be watched and participated in online, including the part where you talk aftrwards. And the community stuff can be replicated with online meetings. Sure, you lose some activities, but nothing of spiritual significance. ...
Really it is not for you, or me, or anyone else, to speak to what is or is not of spiritual or community significance to someone else. Dismissing their lived experiences as "silly" is offensive.

Like much else about the response to this pandemic there may be compromises that can be made, ways to decrease risks to a point in which those for whom in person services are a vital part their quality of life can participate safely enough. Fewer in the building at a time more spread out with prerecorded music instead of a live choir and no singing, quiet spoken voices encouraged, masks required ... might need shifts and/or streaming for those whose turn for live service it is not. Not sure if Italy is the model to follow but masses now "are a go" there.
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... Mass attendees are required to wear masks, and in some cases gloves, they must stand at least three feet apart, there is no sign of peace and communion can only be received in the hand.

Though they were never suspended during Italyís two-month lockdown, baptisms and weddings must also follow a strict protocol.

According to Avvenire, the official newspaper of the Italian bishops, practices vary depending on the individual diocese or parish, but for both weddings and baptisms, attendees must practice the general norms of social distancing and come equipped with proper personal protective gear.

For baptism, the bishops have generally discouraged full immersion, instead recommending that water is poured onto the head. The priest administering baptism must wear disposable gloves for the anointing, tossing them out after one use.

A bishop or pastor can add other requirements or restrictions as they see fit. ...
  #64  
Old 05-22-2020, 02:23 PM
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Don't get me wrong -- I think that in-person worship is, in most cases, a really bad idea right now. I was trying to explain why it's so important to people of faith, and why suggestions like "just watch some evangelist on TV if you need church" are really poor substitutes.
The Pope disagrees. He thinks it is more important to stay alive.

Isn't it nice when a religious leader is also a man of science?
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:39 PM
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The Pope disagrees. He thinks it is more important to stay alive.

Isn't it nice when a religious leader is also a man of science?
The policy of the Catholic Church that he still endorses opposing condom use has killed so many people that I think characterizing him as a "man of science" who thinks it is "important to stay alive" is laughable.

Last edited by Riemann; 05-22-2020 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:45 PM
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The policy of the Catholic Church that he still endorses opposing condom use have killed so many people that I think characterizing him as a "man of science" who thinks it is "important to stay alive" is laughable.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ric-shift.html
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:51 PM
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Yeah, this thread has some people talking about how meeting in person is really important to some people and "virtual church" isn't the same at all, and other people talking about how in-person worship is a really bad, irresponsible idea right now, and they're both right.
In multiple instances in this thread, the same person is saying both of these things. (Tips hat to raspberry hunter and kenobi 65. )
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Old 05-22-2020, 03:18 PM
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Wow, thanks - I obviously had not seen that. Okay, my apologies to Pope Francis. A lot of damage already done, of course, but the past cannot be changed, so all I can do is thank him for having the wisdom and compassion to do the right thing.
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Old 05-22-2020, 03:23 PM
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I'm confused though, that Telegraph article is behind a paywall, and there's nothing at all about any change in policy on Wikipedia here, which I had actually checked before making my first comment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathol...h_and_HIV/AIDS

Nor can I now find anything at all on a policy change by googling.

Last edited by Riemann; 05-22-2020 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 05-22-2020, 03:57 PM
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I'm confused though, that Telegraph article is behind a paywall, and there's nothing at all about any change in policy on Wikipedia here, which I had actually checked before making my first comment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathol...h_and_HIV/AIDS

Nor can I now find anything at all on a policy change by googling.
Here's a brief quote from the Telegraph article (which is dated 2010, and it was actually Pope Benedict who announced the policy change):

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telegraph
After decades of fierce opposition to the use of all contraception, the Pontiff has ended the Churchís absolute ban on the use of condoms.

He said it was acceptable to use a prophylactic when the sole intention was to ďreduce the risk of infectionĒ from Aids.

While he restated the Catholic Churchís staunch objections to contraception because it believes that it interferes with the creation of life, he argued that using a condom to preserve life and avoid death could be a responsible act Ė even outside marriage.

Asked whether ďthe Catholic Church is not fundamentally against the use of condoms,Ē he replied: ďIt of course does not see it as a real and moral solution. In certain cases, where the intention is to reduce the risk of infection, it can nevertheless be a first step on the way to another, more humane sexuality.Ē

He stressed that abstinence was the best policy in fighting the disease but in some circumstances it was better for a condom to be used if it protected human life.
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Old 05-23-2020, 02:49 AM
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raspberry hunter: You've checked our church's web site about returning to church meetings? If you scroll down, you'll see some photos exemplifying the right way to go about congregating in person. Here in Beijing, the church is beginning the process as the local police station has outlined it so we can meet, but it's going to be a long process to get permission.
  #72  
Old 05-23-2020, 01:35 PM
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More than 40 diagnosed with COVID after Frankfurt church service
  #73  
Old 05-23-2020, 02:24 PM
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"The situation is very dynamic," Walczok told the paper, adding the church did not violate official guidelines aimed at containing the spread of the virus.
So, they were all masked and maintaining distance yet 40 individuals contracted the virus?

Quote:
"Most of them are not seriously ill. As far as we know only one person has been admitted to hospital," Rene Gottschalk told the dpa agency.
What about whoever these 40 people infected?
  #74  
Old 05-23-2020, 02:44 PM
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Yeah, this thread has some people talking about how meeting in person is really important to some people and "virtual church" isn't the same at all, and other people talking about how in-person worship is a really bad, irresponsible idea right now, and they're both right.
QFT.

There have been comparisons in this thread to activities like going to a gym, pointing out that "sure exercising at home doesn't give the full experience, just as worshiping from home doesn't give the full experience, but we all need to suck it up for the greater good."

That's true but I'm not sure that it gets to the heart of what some people in this thread, who feel a deep connection to in-person church-going, are saying. Religious people, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you suggesting that there is something transcendent about the experience of worshiping together - a spiritual fulfillment that goes beyond the "mere" personal satisfaction that a gym enthusiast might get from the sights, sounds, and physical sensations of a gym visit?

Because if that's the case, it's still no reason for church worship to be exempt from the rules that other citizens are held to. My SO is an artist and likes to say, "art is my church." He's not being hyperbolic. For him, the opportunity to be in the physical presence of extraordinary art is life-affirming and joyful. Looking at on-line pictures of art wouldn't begin to duplicate that experience.

He and his artist friends are not claiming that the ability to visit art museums is "essential" and that museums should be open because there is some special, ineffable quality to congregating in the presence of art - even though there is.

So I would submit that the OP is right in attributing "arrogance" to any church group that feels they must congregate in person because their religious impulse is somehow special and above the needs of us lowly non-religious types. I'm fine with people seeking meaning in life through religion (as long as it doesn't spill over into marginalizing others, but that's a different subject). But I'm not fine with the assumption that someone is a better person, deserving of more privileges even when those privileges have the capacity to harm others, because they find fulfillment in religion.

Environmental activism, or art, or feeding the homeless, or playing in an orchestra, or other activities that give meaning to the lives of people who participate, surely deserve to be treated the same as religious activities. Hell, if I were making government policy I'd allow groups to congregate to feed the homeless long before I'd allow groups to gather for worship or playing music.
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Old 05-23-2020, 02:53 PM
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So, they were all masked and maintaining distance yet 40 individuals contracted the virus?
The article doesn't say exactly what the "official guidelines aimed at containing the spread of the virus" are, that they were supposedly following. I wondered what measures they had been taking, and tried to search, but couldn't find an answer.
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Old 05-23-2020, 02:59 PM
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So, they were all masked and maintaining distance yet 40 individuals contracted the virus?
That line reminds me of the email message that HR recently sent out on my job, alerting us to the fact that an employee tested positive. He's a coworker of mine, but I didn't know that when I read the email since HR didn't disclose the name. HR assured us that we were all safe because the employee had been wearing a mask while in the building and hadn't been in contact with anyone while in the building. Since I didn't know who the guy was, I believed the email. But later it came out who it was and I realized we'd been majorly lied too. Because I had seen him repeatedly the day before he got his positive test result and I never saw him wearing a mask. I saw him repeatedly because he's the type of person who walks for exercise. He passed by my cubicle at least three times, startling me each time. I remember thinking to myself at the time that it would be messed-up if he was infected and spreading his infection to the few people unfortunate enough to have to be in the office.

But I'm not pissed at him. I'm pissed at HR for spreading bullshit lies. Maybe they were merely taking his word that he followed all the best practices, but they shouldn't have done that. They could have at least reached out to the people who were on the same floor as him and recommended that we self-isolate. It would have been really nice for them to offer to test us as well.

It is possible the congregants got infected despite doing following all the best practices. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the church is claiming it followed all the best practices when really it didn't.
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Old 05-23-2020, 05:12 PM
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Maybe they were merely taking his word that he followed all the best practices, but they shouldn't have done that. They could have at least reached out to the people who were on the same floor as him and recommended that we self-isolate. It would have been really nice for them to offer to test us as well.
Do you work in the sort of place where you could bring your concerns to HR? Like, maybe if you pointed out to them that they should offer testing, they would?

Or are you gasping with laughter at the naive supposition that your HR might do the right thing?
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Old 05-23-2020, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by raspberry hunter View Post
My church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) stopped services and any kind of in-person group meeting in mid-March.

It's hard and Zoom meetings aren't really a substitute. This is something that may be difficult for people who aren't church-goers to understand (I certainly didn't understand it before I started attending church regularly), but a big part of community is knowing the people in your community, being present in their lives, and the way that this is possible because of the way you interact at church -- even if it's only to exchange a couple of thoughts with the person you happen to pass in the hallway, it happens on a regular habit-forming basis, and so I know a lot about the people in my church community just from the little tidbits I get every week. And because of the way it's set up so that we are all constantly serving each other, sometimes through extra-church service like offering to babysit for someone who really needs it, sometimes through intra-church service like how I put together musical numbers for services and other people teach my kiddos, etc.

Is it possible to do community-building things and community service in a church community in the absence of church meetings and when we can't personally visit with each other? Sure! I run a scripture-reading email discussion group, the kiddos' church teacher left Easter treats on our doorstep, there are dinners being delivered to a new mother... But it's isolating and it's hard. Phone and Zoom have an activation energy that means it doesn't lead to natural sharing the way that it sort of falls out naturally out of having regular church every week. And I've kind of lost touch with a bunch of people... I keep in touch with my good friends, but before church ended I could have told you in broad strokes what was going on in the lives of probably at least tens of people (this woman just had surgery, that man just got remarried, etc.), and now I just have no idea about what may have happened in the last couple of months (unless it was something big; new babies and deaths get sent out on the ward mailing list).

And we're not having church services and we are sheltering in place, because we do believe in protecting the weak and vulnerable. But there's a very real deficit there that I'm not sure people understand who haven't been part of a community like this. I know I wouldn't have understood it if I weren't part of one.

(Because I'm a weird heterodox person, I'm not even going to go into the Sacrament/communion and the meaningfulness it has that is very hard to replicate -- if you want me to be totally honest I don't care about it, but I know people who really really do.)

And we don't pass a collection plate, either, so that's not at all a thing.
I donít think itís that uncommon to be a part of a community like that. I have, and Iím not a church goer - and I know a lot of people that have that place that serves the function you describe.

The yoga studio where I took classes 4-5 times a week had that same function. I knew the other people that went there, I socialized with them, we chatted in the hallways before and after class, sometimes we went out after for coffee. If I went to a gym everyday instead Iíd probably develop the same type of community within my gym.

I have friends that have weekly contra dances and they serve the same type of community function as church does for regular churchgoers. Basically, anyone that had any regular participation in any regular group activity based on common interests is going through the same thing.

AA meetings served the same function for my friends in AA - and the absence of regular in-person AA meetings has been hard for many of them.

I just donít think that in the practical sense the community function of church is that special. But, that said - Iím a liberal but one with a libertarian streak - Iím not comfortable with legally requiring churches to close because religion. They should be strongly encouraged to close voluntarily and those that attend should be watched closely for COVID. But I have mixed feelings about the legal mandate.

I also feel that if we had an appropriate government response we could achieve close to 100% voluntary cooperation, but this is a QZ thread so Iím not going to elaborate.
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Old 05-24-2020, 10:09 AM
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I donít think itís that uncommon to be a part of a community like that. I have, and Iím not a church goer - and I know a lot of people that have that place that serves the function you describe.
Where this digression seems to have started was with monstro's suggested ways to get a good ole churching-up in the absence of being physically present at church services, and my objection that they were basically irrelevant to the essential attribute of church - participation in a faith community - and as such weren't good or bad replacements for church, but not replacements in the least.

This was not intended as an argument that church services should continue: just a few posts earlier, I'd posted that:
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
As Jesus said, we do not worship the Lord on this mountain or in Jerusalem, but in spirit and in truth.

Jesus also said to love your neighbor as yourself. To put your own need (such as it is) to meet with fellow believers under one roof ahead of the well-being of the larger community is doing quite the opposite.
By the same logic as in my reply to monstro, I wouldn't expect you or your friends to react kindly to suggestions that you watch videos of yoga classes or contra-dancing events, or the notion that doing that would even partly fill the void of not being able to do such things oneself. But such reactions wouldn't in any way constitute an argument that contra-dancing and yoga classes should be exempt from limits on gatherings during the present health emergency.
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Old 05-24-2020, 10:44 AM
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By the same logic as in my reply to monstro, I wouldn't expect you or your friends to react kindly to suggestions that you watch videos of yoga classes or contra-dancing events, or the notion that doing that would even partly fill the void of not being able to do such things oneself. But such reactions wouldn't in any way constitute an argument that contra-dancing and yoga classes should be exempt from limits on gatherings during the present health emergency.
Sure, though I don't see people storming their governors' offices for the "right" to go to Pilates class. Most people I know are doing video or internet-based exercise classes now. It's not the same thing, but it's satisfactory.
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Old 05-24-2020, 12:58 PM
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Sure, though I don't see people storming their governors' offices for the "right" to go to Pilates class. Most people I know are doing video or internet-based exercise classes now. It's not the same thing, but it's satisfactory.
I was just going to say that my online Zoom yoga classes have been fine, although videotaped classes donít work for me.
Actually the Zoom classes have been better than fine, simply because I can take classes from anywhere. Even though I live in N.C., Iíve been able to take classes at the places I went to when I lived in NY and with my yoga retreat group thatís based in Texas.

The gist of my post was simply to point out that the idea of fellowship wasnít limited to churches.

But Iím also acknowledging that religion is different, legally if not practically and Iím not comfortable with forbidding services like they were yoga classes. But I think still think church services are a really bad idea, and churches, with their older congregations and singing and outloud praying are possibly the least safe place around.

I also think that with a responsible and consistent government response, we could have had close to 100% voluntary cooperation from churches, even evangelical ones. but again, Iím not going to elaborate in QZ.
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Old 05-24-2020, 01:06 PM
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" Church isn't something you receive; it's something you participate in."

Cue lengthy historical theological debate. Some say yes, some say no.
  #83  
Old 05-24-2020, 02:20 PM
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" Church isn't something you receive; it's something you participate in."
Coronavirus is something you receive from proximity from those who participate.
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
Where this digression seems to have started was with monstro's suggested ways to get a good ole churching-up in the absence of being physically present at church services, and my objection that they were basically irrelevant to the essential attribute of church - participation in a faith community - and as such weren't good or bad replacements for church, but not replacements in the least.
This is your opinion about what makes church "essential". Plenty of other people would disagree with you that participation in the faith community requires a physical presence in a specific facility.

Quote:
This was not intended as an argument that church services should continue: just a few posts earlier, I'd posted that:
By the same logic as in my reply to monstro, I wouldn't expect you or your friends to react kindly to suggestions that you watch videos of yoga classes or contra-dancing events, or the notion that doing that would even partly fill the void of not being able to do such things oneself. But such reactions wouldn't in any way constitute an argument that contra-dancing and yoga classes should be exempt from limits on gatherings during the present health emergency.
I did yoga for several years at a yoga studio. I can easily imagine my yoga instructor recommending to the class a yoga app to help us keep practicing during a lockdown. And you know what? I would accept this recommendation without a negative kneejerk reaction, because I would recognize that she wasn't implying that a yoga app is a complete substitute for a real-live yoga class in a real-live yoga studio. I would understand that she was only presenting the yoga app as a tool. Plenty of yogis maintain their practice with similar tools, so why would I take offense to that kind of suggestion?

For lots of people, yoga is both a form of exercise and spiritual journey. But as susan pointed out, you don't see yogis storming state capitals and declaring yoga an essential business. None of the yoga enthusiasts I know are flouting social distancing out of a belief that they will be protected from the virus through supernatural intervention. Plenty of churchgoers are doing these things. So forgive me for not being convinced that these folks are all being driven by an innocent need to participate in their respective faith communities. I really do think some of them are ignorant blowhards who don't like a bunch of scientists telling them what to do.
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Old 05-24-2020, 03:58 PM
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Now it's 107 infected
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:46 PM
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Iím going to say that my quarantine yoga experience isnít less adequate than my real life experience. Itís just different. In many ways itís better.

Iím taking classes with teachers I like that teach all across the country. Iím taking class and reconnecting with friends I havenít seen in years . The variety of available classes is mind-blowing and i have more choices when it comes to times. I get to play my own music. I donít have to drive anywhere to class and I donít have to stress about being on time.

I admit I resisted the online classes for awhile, just because I didnít think it would be the same. And it isnít. But itís just as good, if not better.

And I bet if some people wanted to try, they could find the same advantages in online church. Go to the church you used to go to before your last move. Go to church with your friends from across the country. Find the silver lining.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 05-24-2020 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 05-24-2020, 07:00 PM
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This is your opinion about what makes church "essential". Plenty of other people would disagree with you that participation in the faith community requires a physical presence in a specific facility.
In civilized debate, the accepted practice is to wait until someone makes an assertion before disagreeing with them over it.
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Old 05-24-2020, 08:14 PM
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In civilized debate, the accepted practice is to wait until someone makes an assertion before disagreeing with them over it.
I could say the same thing to you. But I won't because I'm trying to be a good Doper and not catch another warning.
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Old 05-25-2020, 08:46 AM
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I could say the same thing to you. But I won't because I'm trying to be a good Doper and not catch another warning.
Well, here's a Pit thread where you won't have to hold back.

Sorry, everyone, that this has taken up as much of this thread as it has.
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Old 05-27-2020, 08:44 PM
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Reopened SC church closes again after members exposed to coronavirus at services.

The article only says that the congregation (40 people) was exposed, not that any of them have tested positive yet. And even though the headline says "services", the exposure only happened at one service--the one this past Sunday.
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Old 05-28-2020, 03:23 AM
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Oakland pastor recovers from COVID-19, urges churches not to reopen until it's safe on fox9.com

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The pastor said fighting the coronavirus is one of the most difficult experiences of his life.

"Sure, I miss going to the building," Clark said.
. . .
He has a message to faith leaders who want to reopen their places of worship against the advice of public health officials: "How dare you? Who are you to tell people to go to a place that's unsafe?"

Clark said the church is not a building, that it's people who make up a church.
. . .
Clark said he misses going to his church, preaching his sermons and feeding the homeless.

But for now, what's most important is listening to medical professionals about wearing masks and social distancing.

Clark said it's about saving lives.
There seem to be more stories like these lately. Pastors with stories like these on Fox News debunks the myth that coronavirus is not happening.
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:49 AM
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There seem to be more stories like these lately. Pastors with stories like these on Fox News debunks the myth that coronavirus is not happening.
Even Sean Hannity is urging people to wear masks.

So weird to hear him say the right thing for once, but good on him for doing so.
  #93  
Old 05-28-2020, 09:19 AM
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Even Sean Hannity is urging people to wear masks.

So weird to hear him say the right thing for once, but good on him for doing so.
Wonder what made the worm turn? It wasn't so long ago he was in lockstep with COVID being a hoax.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:05 AM
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Wonder what made the worm turn? It wasn't so long ago he was in lockstep with COVID being a hoax.
Covid-19 must've hit someone he actually knows. That's my WAG anyway.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 05-28-2020 at 10:06 AM.
  #95  
Old 05-28-2020, 11:20 AM
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Or he bought stock in 3M.
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Old 05-29-2020, 03:08 AM
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I don't see people storming their governors' offices for the "right" to go to Pilates class.
And if you read the First Amendment you'll see that it doesn't mention Pilates.
Religion is more deeply rooted in our society than pilates.

I agree that churches should remain closed, but I understand why that causes more pain than closing gyms.

(And in any case, no matter how much pain is caused, there is no excuse for carrying rifles to a rally. )
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Old 05-29-2020, 04:13 AM
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And if you read the First Amendment you'll see that it doesn't mention Pilates.
Religion is more deeply rooted in our society than pilates.
What do you mean? Pilates are right there in the Bible! Or at least one of them is...
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Old 05-29-2020, 10:04 AM
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I agree that churches should remain closed, but I understand why that causes more pain than closing gyms.
I don't.

If g-d knows all, sees all, people who believe in Him are going to church for the social part of it, not so He can see you doing so. Yes, it's a very important part of their lives but is fear of g-d a bigger hill to (literally) die upon than fear of fat?
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Old 05-29-2020, 12:14 PM
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I didn't go through this entire thread, but it is obvious to the cynical me that churches are about collecting money from the flock.
  #100  
Old 05-29-2020, 01:08 PM
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What do you mean? Pilates are right there in the Bible! Or at least one of them is...
He was also a firm advocate for hand-washing.
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