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  #15801  
Old 05-13-2020, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
It seems strange to me that in situations like this, the police don't immediately release body-cam footage showing that the police did, in fact, announce their presence.
Of course, it was night and the victims were in bed and asleep, so even if they knocked and announced before breaking in, the residents quite likely didn't hear them.

Why was this happening in the middle of the night anyway?
  #15802  
Old 05-13-2020, 04:51 PM
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Why was this happening in the middle of the night anyway?
Because shooting sleeping families is easier than shooting sitting ducks.
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  #15803  
Old 05-13-2020, 11:04 PM
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It seems strange to me that in situations like this, the police don't immediately release body-cam footage showing that the police did, in fact, announce their presence.
The officers were in plain clothes, so no cameras. But yeah, this was a clusterfuck in the making - if you've decided to deliver the warrant at 3 a.m. to catch your assailant off-guard, you have to also allow for the fact that the people in the completely dark house are asleep and don't hear you announcing yourself. That even sets aside the fact that it was the wrong house, and the person the warrant was for was already in police custody.

Screw-ups happen, but lethal screw-ups that have no consequences can't be allowed. At the very least, these guys should no longer be cops, in the same way a doctor who kills a patient with a screw-up can't practice any more.

As far as I can tell, the only 2 times an active-duty police officer has been successfully prosecuted for killing a citizen by mistake were Amber Guyger, and Mohamed Noor (that incident in Minnesota 2 years ago).
  #15804  
Old 05-13-2020, 11:09 PM
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The officers were in plain clothes, so no cameras. But yeah, this was a clusterfuck in the making - if you've decided to deliver the warrant at 3 a.m. to catch your assailant off-guard, you have to also allow for the fact that the people in the completely dark house are asleep and don't hear you announcing yourself. That even sets aside the fact that it was the wrong house, and the person the warrant was for was already in police custody.

Screw-ups happen, but lethal screw-ups that have no consequences can't be allowed. At the very least, these guys should no longer be cops, in the same way a doctor who kills a patient with a screw-up can't practice any more.

As far as I can tell, the only 2 times an active-duty police officer has been successfully prosecuted for killing a citizen by mistake were Amber Guyger, and Mohamed Noor (that incident in Minnesota 2 years ago).
Guyger was offduty when she murdered Botham Jean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean

Quote:
On September 6, 2018, off-duty Dallas Police Department patrol officer Amber Guyger entered the Dallas, Texas, apartment of Botham Jean and fatally shot him. Guyger said that she had entered the apartment believing it was her own and that she shot Jean believing he was a burglar.

Last edited by madsircool; 05-13-2020 at 11:10 PM.
  #15805  
Old 05-14-2020, 12:57 AM
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The officers were in plain clothes, so no cameras.
Wait, so they're serving a warrant, in the middle of the night, while being completely unidentifiable as ACTUALLY police? And no one has lost their jobs over this shit? I just can't imagine why people think police are incompetent jackasses with no accountability
  #15806  
Old 05-14-2020, 06:55 AM
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Screw-ups happen, but lethal screw-ups that have no consequences can't be allowed. At the very least, these guys should no longer be cops, in the same way a doctor who kills a patient with a screw-up can't practice any more.
Actually, a majority of doctors who commit medical malpractice or make a significant error that kills a patient don't lose their license to practice medicine.
  #15807  
Old 05-14-2020, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
It seems strange to me that in situations like this, the police don't immediately release body-cam footage showing that the police did, in fact, announce their presence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folacin View Post
Of course, it was night and the victims were in bed and asleep, so even if they knocked and announced before breaking in, the residents quite likely didn't hear them.

Why was this happening in the middle of the night anyway?
Quote:
Originally Posted by epbrown01 View Post
The officers were in plain clothes, so no cameras. But yeah, this was a clusterfuck in the making - if you've decided to deliver the warrant at 3 a.m. to catch your assailant off-guard, you have to also allow for the fact that the people in the completely dark house are asleep and don't hear you announcing yourself. That even sets aside the fact that it was the wrong house, and the person the warrant was for was already in police custody.
A couple of the stories that I've read on this incident, including this one, has the victim's family and lawyer asserting that the police had a "no-knock" warrant.

It will be very interesting if this is true, because surely this would suggest that, contrary to their own claims, the police did NOT announce themselves before they broke into the house. The very purpose of a no-knock warrant is precisely to relieve police of the responsibility to announce themselves so they can maintain a greater element of surprise in entering the house. If it does turn out that it was a no-knock warrant, the police are going to have a hard time convincing the court that they announced themselves, and it will be much easier for the guy in the apartment to argue that he fired his initial shots in self-defense against an unknown intruder.

More generally, I think no-knock warrants are granted far too often. They should be a measure of absolute last resort, against suspects whom you have good reason to suspect will be likely to fire on police officers. The main reason that police want these types of warrants is that they make it harder for drug suspects to flush the evidence, but to be honest, if that happens in a few cases then it will be a small price to pay for fewer dead civilians.
  #15808  
Old 05-14-2020, 11:26 AM
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Actually, a majority of doctors who commit medical malpractice or make a significant error that kills a patient don't lose their license to practice medicine.
The should if they performed a no-knock surgery.
  #15809  
Old 05-14-2020, 12:18 PM
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The should if they performed a no-knock surgery.
This is funnier than it should be.
  #15810  
Old 05-14-2020, 01:36 PM
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The should if they performed a no-knock surgery.
Why are you picking on surgeons who operate to fix genu valgum?

Last edited by kayaker; 05-14-2020 at 01:37 PM. Reason: Speling
  #15811  
Old 05-14-2020, 03:11 PM
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Why are you picking on surgeons who operate to fix genu valgum?
If your means of locomotion starts having a knocking problem, just increase your octane rating.
  #15812  
Old 05-22-2020, 01:35 AM
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Interestingly, the Louisville Chief of Police has said that he's retiring as of June 1 in the aftermath of the Breonna Taylor shooting.

And the FBI has opened an investigation into the shooting, as well.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/21/us/br...rnd/index.html

https://www.wlky.com/article/lmpd-ch...-june/32631634
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  #15813  
Old 05-22-2020, 02:05 AM
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Another new development: The guy who made the video of the McMichael Klan murdering Arbery has been arrested and charged with Felony Murder among other crimes. (Is there another thread nearby where this is already being discussed?)

ETA: Link to article in New York Times:
Man Who Filmed Ahmaud Arbery’s Death Is Charged With Murder, May 21, 2020.

Last edited by Senegoid; 05-22-2020 at 02:09 AM.
  #15814  
Old 05-22-2020, 06:40 AM
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Another new development: The guy who made the video of the McMichael Klan murdering Arbery has been arrested and charged with Felony Murder among other crimes. (Is there another thread nearby where this is already being discussed?)

ETA: Link to article in New York Times:
Man Who Filmed Ahmaud Arbery’s Death Is Charged With Murder, May 21, 2020.
I don't undersyand this arrest. I don't see how any jury would convict the person cideotaping the event for murder or any serious charge.
  #15815  
Old 05-22-2020, 07:07 AM
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I don't undersyand this arrest. I don't see how any jury would convict the person cideotaping the event for murder or any serious charge.
He was along for the ride (a co-conspirator) thus he shares in the crime.

Last edited by kayaker; 05-22-2020 at 07:07 AM.
  #15816  
Old 05-22-2020, 07:12 AM
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He was along for the ride (a co-conspirator) thus he shares in the crime.
I guess it depends on the facts of the case. Seems like prosecutorial over-reach no matter what. My guess is that the prosecuter is using this as leverage to make the filming guy cooperate and testify.
  #15817  
Old 05-22-2020, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when an offender kills in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime, the offender, and also the offender's accomplices or co-conspirators, may be found guilty of murder.
Seems pretty clear. But, yeah, I'm sure this will encourage his cooperation.

Last edited by kayaker; 05-22-2020 at 07:37 AM.
  #15818  
Old 05-22-2020, 08:04 AM
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I guess it depends on the facts of the case. Seems like prosecutorial over-reach no matter what. My guess is that the prosecuter is using this as leverage to make the filming guy cooperate and testify.
...watch the NYT video. Bryan wasn't just an observer. He was part of the chase: which lasted four minutes. The first time McMichael tries to block Arbery Arbery turns around and runs in the opposite direction: Bryan tries to block his retreat. Bryan then takes the lead in the pursuit before something happens (we don't know what that is yet.), Arbery turns around again, is chased by Bryan who herds Arbery into the roadblock, which Arbery tries to evade and gets shot.
  #15819  
Old 05-22-2020, 08:13 AM
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He was along for the ride (a co-conspirator) thus he shares in the crime.
Yep. Apparently (per Atlanta local news this morning) there’s more video the public hasn’t seen, the chase of Arbery lasted for over 4 minutes during which Mr. Bryan (the video taker) helped to block Arbery’s exit from the neighborhood and corral him toward the McMichaels. He’s therefore charged with murder and attempted false imprisonment.
  #15820  
Old 05-22-2020, 08:23 AM
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That makes more sense, then. I didn't watch the video.
  #15821  
Old 05-22-2020, 08:24 AM
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Wow. Much better illustration of context.
  #15822  
Old 05-22-2020, 01:30 PM
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Yep. Apparently (per Atlanta local news this morning) there’s more video the public hasn’t seen, the chase of Arbery lasted for over 4 minutes during which Mr. Bryan (the video taker) helped to block Arbery’s exit from the neighborhood and corral him toward the McMichaels. He’s therefore charged with murder and attempted false imprisonment.
I'm torn between being happy that they were stupid enough to not only video their assault, kidnapping and murder, but to then release it thinking it was exonerating, and the fact that that stupidity is part of the reason that they are racist fucks who murder black men for no reason.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 05-22-2020 at 01:32 PM.
  #15823  
Old 05-22-2020, 03:23 PM
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From the Wikipedia quote a few posts above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when an offender kills in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime, the offender, and also the offender's accomplices or co-conspirators, may be found guilty of murder.
The rule may be even more all-inclusive than that. It's not even necessary, apparently, that the offender kills someone. It may suffice that somebody somehow dies in the commission of a felony, then every accomplice can be charged with Felony Murder.

I recall a case from some time ago: A bank robber robbed a bank, and while trying to make his getaway, got shot dead by the police. (I don't know if he fired first or any other details.) Note that the offender didn't kill anybody. The police killed him. So the police went to the offender's home and arrested his wife on Felony Murder charges, claiming that she had conspired with him to help plan the robbery. (I never saw any follow-up as to how that case turned out.)
  #15824  
Old 05-22-2020, 09:48 PM
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As far as I can tell, the only 2 times an active-duty police officer has been successfully prosecuted for killing a citizen by mistake were Amber Guyger, and Mohamed Noor (that incident in Minnesota 2 years ago).
And Noor was:
1) black
2) not well liked by fellow officers. (He was hired as part of a program to increase racial diversity in the police force; not through the normal hiring/training process.)
  #15825  
Old 05-23-2020, 02:36 AM
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In the Breonna Taylor case, the prosecution says that it's dropping the charges against her boyfriend.
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  #15826  
Old 05-25-2020, 09:58 AM
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We've talked quite a bit about civil asset forfeiture in some of the cases in this thread, and about how it often allows law enforcement to take property even in the absence of a conviction.

This week, the Arizona House of Representatives voted on SB1556, a bill that would require a criminal conviction before any attempt to take a person's property through the process of civil asset forfeiture. The text of the bill can be read here (pdf), and the section of the bill directly relevant to forfeiture, section 13-4304, can be found starting on page 18.
Quote:
13-4304. Property subject to forfeiture; exemptions; innocent owner

A. EXCEPT AS PROVIDED IN SUBSECTIONS B, C AND D OF THIS SECTION,
all property, including all interests in such property, described in a
statute providing for its forfeiture is subject to forfeiture. However IF
BOTH OF THE FOLLOWING APPLY:
1. THE OWNER IS CONVICTED OF AN OFFENSE TO WHICH FORFEITURE
APPLIES.

2. THE STATE ESTABLISHES BY CLEAR AND CONVINCING EVIDENCE THAT THE
PROPERTY IS SUBJECT TO FORFEITURE AS PROVIDED IN SUBSECTION E OF THIS
SECTION.
1. No B. A vehicle used by any person as a common carrier in the
transaction of business as a common carrier may NOT be forfeited under the
provisions of
this chapter unless it appears THE STATE PROVES BY CLEAR AND
CONVINCING EVIDENCE
that the owner or other person in charge of the
vehicle was a consenting party or privy to the act or omission giving rise
to forfeiture or knew or had reason to know of it.
The red deletions and the blue all-caps show what has been deleted from, and added to, the previous version of the statute. You can read more on the linked document if you want to see the other provisions of the bill.

While the State Senate passed the bill unanimously, the House of Representative voted it down last Thursday, with EVERY SINGLE DEMOCRAT voting against the changes. You can see the results here, if you're interested.

Why did they vote against it? This article from the Arizona Capitol Times gives some information. Basically, the Democrats argued pretty much the same thing that all defenders of civil asset forfeiture have been arguing for decades:
Quote:
“There are abuses out there,” said Rep. Kirsten Engel, D-Tucson.

Engel said, though, she could not support such a change without also finding a way to ensure that counties have the money they need. She said the state is in no position to do that now, partly because it already has adopted a budget for the coming fiscal year and partly because the COVID-19 pandemic is going to slash anticipated state revenues by $1 billion or more.
Basically, "We know this deprives people of their rights, but we really need the money."
  #15827  
Old 05-26-2020, 07:51 AM
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There's nothing new regarding this dirty cop's trial; he's under home confinement on bond, waiting for his trial.

I just wanted to note that prosecutors in Houston, back in February, dismissed 73 cases in which this cop was the only witness to alleged drug activity. And they are now moving to dismiss another 91 cases where he wrote affidavits that were used to obtain search warrants that led to drug arrests.

This quote from the newspaper article is particularly depressing:
Quote:
All of the individuals in the 164 cases being dismissed are minorities and the majority are African American, prosecutors said.
  #15828  
Old 05-26-2020, 08:54 AM
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Police kill another unarmed African-American in Minneapolis. I guess "not breathing" is the same thing as "subdued".
  #15829  
Old 05-26-2020, 08:59 AM
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Police kill another unarmed African-American in Minneapolis. I guess "not breathing" is the same thing as "subdued".
I don't know, this doesn't seem very controversial to me -- they straight-up killed that guy. Can someone ping one of the local cop-defenders so I can get my eyes opened about how a guy in cuffs on the ground has to have a knee in his neck?
  #15830  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:05 AM
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The Minneapolis Police Department said in a press release that officers arrived at the scene in response to a reported “forgery in progress.” The suspect, police said, was in a car and appeared to be under the influence. He “physically resisted” officers, police said.
Forgery??
  #15831  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:11 AM
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Forgery??
Since the article twice references "Cup Foods" which I assume should be "Cub Foods" (a grocery chain), I'm hoping that is another example of how crappy the reporting is.
  #15832  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:21 AM
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Forgery in progress.

"OK MOTHERFUCKER,,,,,,,DROP THE PALETTE, BRUSH, AND CADMIUM YELLOW."
  #15833  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:21 AM
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Since the article twice references "Cup Foods" which I assume should be "Cub Foods" (a grocery chain), I'm hoping that is another example of how crappy the reporting is.
Cup Foods is a take out chain in Minneapolis-this took me 7 seconds of Googling to find out. At least put a little effort into it.
  #15834  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:26 AM
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Cup Foods is a take out chain in Minneapolis-this took me 7 seconds of Googling to find out. At least put a little effort into it.
I did put a little effort into it (relying on my memory of Twin Cities retail establishments and assuming the worst of coastal based reporter not familiar with an area). Obviously not enough, though.
  #15835  
Old 05-26-2020, 04:48 PM
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FTR, I assumed that it was a typo for Cub Foods as well.

What I want to know is why were the cops only fired and not charged with any crime?
  #15836  
Old 05-26-2020, 05:04 PM
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FTR, I assumed that it was a typo for Cub Foods as well.
No, it's CUP Foods. A tiny little storefront on 38th Street in South Minneapolis. (Kinda known as a druggie hangout in the neighborhood.)

Years ago, CUB Foods (SuperValu) considered suing then for copying the name, but decided that while they would probably win the lawsuit, it would just give that store more publicity.

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What I want to know is why were the cops only fired and not charged with any crime?
Because the cause of death seems to be a drug overdose, not something that was caused by the cop.
  #15837  
Old 05-26-2020, 06:57 PM
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Because the cause of death seems to be a drug overdose, not something that was caused by the cop.
That's gonna need a fucking cite.
  #15838  
Old 05-26-2020, 07:33 PM
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FTR, I assumed that it was a typo for Cub Foods as well.

What I want to know is why were the cops only fired and not charged with any crime?
No prosecutor is going to charge a (former) PO with murder until that prosecutor is close to 100% sure of conviction (and even then sometimes they still won't). I really hope the former cop will be charged, but it really is unreasonable to expect charges to happen this quickly.
  #15839  
Old 05-27-2020, 06:43 AM
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No prosecutor is going to charge a (former) PO with murder until that prosecutor is close to 100% sure of conviction (and even then sometimes they still won't). I really hope the former cop will be charged, but it really is unreasonable to expect charges to happen this quickly.
Yeah, that system isn't fucked up at all.
  #15840  
Old 05-27-2020, 08:05 AM
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...

Because the cause of death seems to be a drug overdose, not something that was caused by the cop.
Cite?
If that's true can't the cop be charged with something less than murder?
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  #15841  
Old 05-27-2020, 08:22 AM
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Because the cause of death seems to be a drug overdose, not something that was caused by the cop.
OK, asshole, you need to fucking put up or retract your assertion.

I've just read 15 different stories about the killing of George Floyd, from local organizations like the Minneapolis Star Tribune and WCCO Minnesota through to national media outlets like the Washington Post, the New York Times, and the major news networks, and not one of them mention a drug overdose as a factor in Floyd's death. I've also done a more general news search for "george floyd overdose" and got nothing.

Where's your evidence?

Last edited by mhendo; 05-27-2020 at 08:22 AM.
  #15842  
Old 05-27-2020, 08:43 AM
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Regarding the George Floyd murder (whether they end up convicted or not, that's what happened), it will be interesting to see how this plays out. It's already received massive national attention from politicians, actors, professional sports figures, and major news outlets, and led to protests in Minneapolis.

There is some very interesting comparative imagery being deployed in all of this. One is contrasting the actions of Minneapolis cops, firing tear gas last night at protests that include young children, with cops in places like Michigan who were happy to allow large crowds of armed white protestors march all over the place without hindering them in the slightest. There's also this image that's doing the rounds on Twitter and Instagram, and has been picked up by a bunch of news outlets, contrasting one type of kneeling with another. It's pretty powerful stuff.

Of course, we had video of Eric Garner getting choked to death as well, using a chokehold banned by the NYPD, and that still didn't lead to an indictment, and the officer wasn't even fired until five years after Garner's death.
  #15843  
Old 05-27-2020, 10:21 AM
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Because the cause of death seems to be a drug overdose, not something that was caused by the cop.
This really makes no sense. If the cause of death is not related to anything the officers did, then why where they fired? If they were fired for doing something that led to Floyds' death then why have they not been charged?

When blacks are involved they get arrested and the fact sort out later. When whites are involved "they wanted to make an informed decision on this situation" - like the cop with the mob in the wrong house in NC.
  #15844  
Old 05-28-2020, 07:40 AM
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It seems strange to me that in situations like this, the police don't immediately release body-cam footage showing that the police did, in fact, announce their presence.
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Probably not, but don't they realize how bad that looks after all these incidents?
Not as bad as body cam imagery proving them to be liars would made them look. Truth isn't a defense when the truth is that they're guilty.
  #15845  
Old 05-28-2020, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
Not as bad as body cam imagery proving them to be liars would made them look. Truth isn't a defense when the truth is that they're guilty.
Good point.
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
Not as bad as body cam imagery proving them to be liars would made them look. Truth isn't a defense when the truth is that they're guilty.
One of my favorite SNL memories is from when Kermit Washington punched Rudy Tomjanovich (and nearly killed him).

Probably on Weekend Update, Garrett Morris comes on to defend him, and goes to the tape. IIRC correctly, he kept showing different angles to try and find one where Rudy looked like the aggressor. He finally fell back on "I'm sure he deserved it".

Can't find it as a clip online, more's the pity.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ike Witt View Post
This really makes no sense. If the cause of death is not related to anything the officers did, then why where they fired? If they were fired for doing something that led to Floyds' death then why have they not been charged?
.
I presume they will wait for the autopsy report to be released, then send it to the grand jury to indict the officers. I don't see how the officer kneeling on the guy's neck could not be charged with murder. The victim was handcuffed, on the ground, and not fighting and there was no need for force.
  #15848  
Old 05-28-2020, 01:05 PM
Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Originally Posted by Senegoid View Post
From the Wikipedia quote a few posts above:


The rule may be even more all-inclusive than that. It's not even necessary, apparently, that the offender kills someone. It may suffice that somebody somehow dies in the commission of a felony, then every accomplice can be charged with Felony Murder.

I recall a case from some time ago: A bank robber robbed a bank, and while trying to make his getaway, got shot dead by the police. (I don't know if he fired first or any other details.) Note that the offender didn't kill anybody. The police killed him. So the police went to the offender's home and arrested his wife on Felony Murder charges, claiming that she had conspired with him to help plan the robbery. (I never saw any follow-up as to how that case turned out.)
There are two variants of the rule. The agency theory requires that either the felon or one of the accomplices be directly responsible for the death. The other, which I forget the name of, only requires that the death be a foreseeable consequence of the underlying crime. So the police shooting an armed robber would count - after all, the police shoot armed robbers - but the police shooting a guy trying to pass a bad check wouldn't.
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Originally Posted by mhendo View Post
A couple of the stories that I've read on this incident, including this one, has the victim's family and lawyer asserting that the police had a "no-knock" warrant.

It will be very interesting if this is true, because surely this would suggest that, contrary to their own claims, the police did NOT announce themselves before they broke into the house. The very purpose of a no-knock warrant is precisely to relieve police of the responsibility to announce themselves so they can maintain a greater element of surprise in entering the house. If it does turn out that it was a no-knock warrant, the police are going to have a hard time convincing the court that they announced themselves, and it will be much easier for the guy in the apartment to argue that he fired his initial shots in self-defense against an unknown intruder.

More generally, I think no-knock warrants are granted far too often. They should be a measure of absolute last resort, against suspects whom you have good reason to suspect will be likely to fire on police officers. The main reason that police want these types of warrants is that they make it harder for drug suspects to flush the evidence, but to be honest, if that happens in a few cases then it will be a small price to pay for fewer dead civilians.
That's not how a no-knock warrant works (except in a very few states). It means they have to announce themselves before breaking into the home, instead of announcing themselves and waiting for the homeowner to come and open the door. It doesn't mean they can just burst in completely unannounced and be like, "surprise!"
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Last edited by Really Not All That Bright; 05-28-2020 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 05-28-2020, 03:27 PM
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Saw an image of a police officer kneeling on a man's neck placed next to a shot of a QB kneeling for the anthem with the caption "this ... is why"
  #15850  
Old 05-28-2020, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
That's gonna need a fucking cite.
Tim's cite is, I am sure, that George Floyd was black.

Next he'll say Floyd died of "excited delirium," a common police claim about dead people who - purely by coincidence, you understand - had also been beaten, choked, or hit with tasers.
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