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  #51  
Old 10-17-2018, 07:34 AM
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The Saudis only murdered a journalist in the consulate, so the GOP doesn't have to respond. If the Saudis had performed an abortion, then there would have been repercussions.

America's addiction to cheap oil makes us complicit in this murder and lots of other crimes in the world. We're not an introspective people, so this will pass.
  #52  
Old 10-17-2018, 07:52 AM
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I think the fact that the Republican President is engaging in a murder coverup to protect cash flows to his private businesses would be of interest to a lot of people, tbh.

Last edited by JohnT; 10-17-2018 at 07:52 AM.
  #53  
Old 10-17-2018, 08:47 AM
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I think the fact that the Republican President is engaging in a murder coverup to protect cash flows to his private businesses would be of interest to a lot of people, tbh.
You would be mistaken. We are already talking about Elizabeth Warren's DNA, Trump calling a porn star horseface and that time Obama put Dijon mustard on his burger.
  #54  
Old 10-17-2018, 08:49 AM
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Because people talk about the other things doesn't mean they're not talking about this.
  #55  
Old 10-17-2018, 09:10 AM
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People are not talking about this. There will be no consequences for the murder. There will be no consequences for Trump's blood money. I find the fact that people think that murder, corruption and bribery are issues that American voters care about adorably naïve.
  #56  
Old 10-17-2018, 09:39 AM
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You realise that that does not make it better?
Didn't say that. I pointed out that you didn't care if a Republican President did it.
  #57  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:53 AM
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If the Saudis fall, what replaces them?

The Muslim Brotherhood?
Ba'athists?
The Sunni version the ayatollahs?

I don't see any good options on the horizon.
  #58  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:59 AM
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Didn't say that. I pointed out that you didn't care if a Republican President did it.
Where the actual fuck did I say that?

Your argument can be summed up as well its better to kill a 16 year old boy than an 8 year old girl
  #59  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:10 PM
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You realise that that does not make it better?
I think you need to pick a side as to whether you support the assassination of non-violent people or not, rather than using any unjust killing to fuel more of your comments in disdain for America.
  #60  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:11 PM
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People are not talking about this.
There's been an article in the WSJ every day since the story broke. The randos we were playing video games with online this weekend were talking about.
  #61  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:37 PM
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Where the actual fuck did I say that?

Your argument can be summed up as well its better to kill a 16 year old boy than an 8 year old girl
AFAIK, you and I haven't butted heads; so let me try to interpret.
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I think you need to pick a side as to whether you support the assassination of non-violent people or not, rather than using any unjust killing to fuel more of your comments in disdain for America.
^This. That is to say, you posted an example of an American citizen who was killed -- some would say 'murdered' -- by Obama; but you did not mention the other American citizen killed -- some would say 'murdered' -- by Trump. This implies that you think it's OK for one party to kill American citizens, but not for the other side to do it. Whether you actually think this, it's how people read it.
  #62  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:13 PM
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I think you need to pick a side as to whether you support the assassination of non-violent people or not, rather than using any unjust killing to fuel more of your comments in disdain for America.
Maybe you can start by actually arguing the issue rather than running to your "OMG he is an America-hater" security blanket as per usual.

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^This. That is to say, you posted an example of an American citizen who was killed -- some would say 'murdered' -- by Obama; but you did not mention the other American citizen killed -- some would say 'murdered' -- by Trump. This implies that you think it's OK for one party to kill American citizens, but not for the other side to do it. Whether you actually think this, it's how people read it.
I posted an example of an ostensible American person killed on the express orders of the United States President. If you want more examples by other Presidents than I'll happily oblige.

Last edited by AK84; 10-17-2018 at 01:16 PM.
  #63  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:17 PM
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Maybe you can start by actually arguing the issue rather than running to your "OMG he is an America-hater" security blanket.
When you introduce whataboutism into a discussion of the apparent murder of a journalist, you aren't talking about the issue at hand.

ETA: I mean, I could play the same game by talking about the recent Saudi missile strike that killed 40-something school children. But I don't think that those unwarranted killings is relevant to this discussion either, notwithstanding your effort to want to talk about Yemen.

Last edited by Ravenman; 10-17-2018 at 01:21 PM.
  #64  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:26 PM
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When you introduce whataboutism into a discussion of the apparent murder of a journalist, you aren't talking about the issue at hand.

ETA: I mean, I could play the same game by talking about the recent Saudi missile strike that killed 40-something school children. But I don't think that those unwarranted killings is relevant to this discussion either, notwithstanding your effort to want to talk about Yemen.

You mean one of the shitload of weapon the United States Government has given the House of Saud? Sure, lets.
  #65  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:32 PM
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Ha ha ha, what an INCREDIBLE coincidence that the United States is brought up again, in one of your posts!
  #66  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:34 PM
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Ha ha ha, what an INCREDIBLE coincidence that the United States is brought up again, in one of your posts!
Yes, who would have thought that the Saudis biggest ally and supporter is brought up in a thread about Saudi Arabia? I really should have brought up Argentina!.
  #67  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:40 PM
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Yes, who would have thought that the Saudis biggest ally and supporter is brought up in a thread about Saudi Arabia? I really should have brought up Argentina!.
Did you say Argentina? Why didn't you tell me you wanted to talk about CIA's murderous interventions in Latin America!?!
  #68  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:54 PM
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You mean one of the shitload of weapon the United States Government has given the House of Saud? Sure, lets.
So the US is to blame for the Saudis using the weapons? How about blaming the Saudis?
  #69  
Old 10-17-2018, 02:11 PM
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So the US is to blame for the Saudis using the weapons? How about blaming the Saudis?
For Yemen? Hell yes. Both are in the dock. The US is up to its eyeballs in Yemen, and the raid you accused me of ignoring and the drone strike which liquidated a teenager both occurred there,

Last edited by AK84; 10-17-2018 at 02:12 PM.
  #70  
Old 10-17-2018, 03:05 PM
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For Yemen? Hell yes. Both are in the dock. The US is up to its eyeballs in Yemen, and the raid you accused me of ignoring and the drone strike which liquidated a teenager both occurred there,
So you are simultaneously arguing that the assassination of a journalist isn't a big deal because the U.S. does similar things; and also saying what the U.S. does is terrible. That's not a coherent principle. If it were, you'd be saying that both are terrible misdeeds -- instead, your first post in this thread makes it sound like your criticism of the Saudis is mainly that they weren't more efficient or secretive. Not that you actually believe they did it: innocent until proven guilty, eh?

So when I hear your comments on this murder, I can't hear any thing over the deafening noise of the grinding of an ax.
  #71  
Old 10-17-2018, 04:07 PM
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You are now totally incoherent, as per usual. I never said the action of killing Jamal Khashoggi was not evil. You are now adding words to my post. And in your patriotic indignation you fail to realize that something can be evil and stupid at the same time.
  #72  
Old 10-17-2018, 04:55 PM
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You know, I think the Saudis might well be innocent here. I mean, there is obvious but on the face of it deniable action like the Markov killing of the Salisbury poisoning, and then there is well....this. The Saudis have to know that even if the guy tripped his own shoelaces and broke his hip inside the consulate, they would be blamed. Seriously, if they intended to kill him, at this rate, it would have been better to take him back home and set up an appontment for him at chop chop square.

Looking evil is “meh”. Looking stupid on the other hand....
So your argument is that the Saudis are far too intelligent to misjudge Western reaction so badly, and far too humble to imagine they could get away with it... so it can't possibly be true?
  #73  
Old 10-17-2018, 05:18 PM
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There's been an article in the WSJ every day since the story broke. The randos we were playing video games with online this weekend were talking about.
not surprisingly, journalists are talking about journalists being murdered, but Americans are fine with the Saudis butchering American residents just so long as gas stays low enough that they can drive their fat asses in their suvs to the mall to get more Cinnabon. If the Saudis had performed an abortion in the consulate, maybe there’d be some GOP push back, but the second you suggest that maybe Americans should bike more and carpool to decrease our dependency on foreign oil, we will decide that the journalist had it coming.
  #74  
Old 10-17-2018, 05:53 PM
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IMHO, MBS has just sent a very powerful message to any expatriate Saudis who criticize his 'reforms' and to any of his cousins who might think of challenging him.
  #75  
Old 10-17-2018, 11:49 PM
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A stunning story in the WaPost from and about a close friend of Khashoggi.

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...clandestine recordings — more than 10 hours of conversation — were provided to The Washington Post by Abdulaziz, a close associate of the missing Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi. They offer a chilling depiction of how Saudi Arabia tries to lure opposition figures back to the kingdom with promises of money and safety. These efforts have sharply escalated since Mohammed became crown prince last year, rights groups say.

Several of Khashoggi’s friends said that senior Saudi officials close to the crown prince had contacted him in recent months, even offering him a high-level job working for the government if he returned to the kingdom. He said he didn’t trust the offer, fearing it was a ruse. According to U.S. intelligence intercepts of Saudi officials, Mohammed had ordered an operation to lure Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia from his home in Virginia and then detain him.
  #76  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:37 AM
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If the Saudis fall, what replaces them?

The Muslim Brotherhood?
Ba'athists?
The Sunni version the ayatollahs?

I don't see any good options on the horizon.
Well I think we could have a meaningful discussion answering that rhetorical question, but is anyone talking regime change?

The US should finally call SA on their shit, not so obviously take sides in the middle east (Iran=mordor, Saudi=very fine people) and do something about Yemen. None of this requires agitating for regime change.
  #77  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:46 AM
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I think the fact that the Republican President is engaging in a murder coverup to protect cash flows to his private businesses would be of interest to a lot of people, tbh.
It should be. But we won't have legitimate investigations for several years into any of this.
  #78  
Old 10-18-2018, 03:38 AM
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Whataboutism is not an argument.
  #79  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:38 PM
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Turkish media are reporting that one of the suspected killers in the Jamaal Khashoggi murder has died in a 'suspicious' car crash.
  #80  
Old 10-18-2018, 01:20 PM
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If the Saudis fall, what replaces them?
Basically we are talking about the replacement of the current Crown Prince MBS by another member of the Royal Family--someone not as crazy/violent. No, this new Crown Prince and later King will not be a strong advocate of democracy.
  #81  
Old 10-18-2018, 09:43 PM
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... but the second you suggest that maybe Americans should bike more and carpool to decrease our dependency on foreign oil, we will decide that the journalist had it coming.
I called it.

Quote:
In recent days, a cadre of conservative House Republicans allied with Trump has been privately exchanging articles from right-wing outlets that fuel suspicion of Khashoggi, highlighting his association with the Muslim Brotherhood during his youth and raising conspiratorial questions about his work decades ago as an embedded reporter covering Osama bin Laden, according to four GOP officials involved in the discussions who were not authorized to speak publicly.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/power...=.7366e39503b6
  #82  
Old 10-18-2018, 10:00 PM
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Turkish media are reporting that one of the suspected killers in the Jamaal Khashoggi murder has died in a 'suspicious' car crash.
Yeah, I wouldn't want to be the Saudi Consul in Istanbul right now. I'd have him in my death pool if I did that sort of thing:

"Daily Hürriyet columnist Abdulkadir Selvi claimed on Oct. 18 that Saudi Arabia’s Istanbul consul Mohammad al-Otaibi could be “the next execution” as Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman “would do anything to get rid of evidence.”
  #83  
Old 10-18-2018, 11:22 PM
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And if you ever wonder why dictatorships peons are never willing to back them up when the shit hits the fan, here is why
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:40 AM
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I heard the Saudis have completed their investigation. Apparently Khashoggi fell down the stairs and accidentally dismembered himself.
  #85  
Old 10-19-2018, 10:30 AM
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[....] he rightly saw them for what they really were, attempts to get him back home to kill him.
Why would he enter the consulate alone? If I were him I would have taken a posse of folks with me.
  #86  
Old 10-19-2018, 12:07 PM
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Why would he enter the consulate alone? If I were him I would have taken a posse of folks with me.
Perhaps he thought he was safe in Turkey.
  #87  
Old 10-19-2018, 02:21 PM
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Why would he enter the consulate alone? If I were him I would have taken a posse of folks with me.
It doesn’t always work that way - many consulates require appointments and will only let the person who has the appointment enter. I believe I read that his fiancée was refused entry, which is why she waited outside with his phones.
  #88  
Old 10-19-2018, 05:32 PM
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And yes, the deal is for billions, but I can't recall the amount. (The site where I posted my thing is down, or I'd check.)
$110 Billion according to Trump, but really probably only about 14.5 Billion in reality.
  #89  
Old 10-19-2018, 05:46 PM
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Remind me which party is pro-life again?
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Old 10-19-2018, 06:54 PM
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Remind me which party is pro-life again?
Pro-fetus.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:53 PM
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I just clicked on this thread and am surprised to see nobody has mentioned the "elephant in the room." Khashoggi didn't write on American politics, but naturally his writing touched on it, and he did not toe the pro-Trump party line.

An American reporter was assassinated by a foreign government. Does anyone of you think that Trump would have been so pleased with this killing had the reporter been pro-Trump rather than anti-Trump? (I'm not sure it's overwhelmingly unlikely that the Saudis had express permission for the killing, from Kushner or some other lackey.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamal Khashoggi
There have been rumors of Israeli-Saudi discussions over attacking Hezbollah, both directly and through President Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner. If true, the reports of late-night meetings between MBS [Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman] and Kushner at the end of October, as well as Kushner’s trip to Israel, take on new meaning considering the events that have followed.

This pivot could in part be due to the “Trump effect,” particularly the U.S. president’s strong bond with MBS. The two despise Iran and its proxy Hezbollah, a sentiment the Israelis share. Would Trump support the Saudis if they choose to bring Hezbollah down in a war or a Qatari-style blockade? Given the recent rush of the French president — Lebanon’s longtime ally — to Riyadh to check in on Hariri, the Saudis will need Trump’s help.

...

[Detroit] which in 2013 filed for the largest municipal bankruptcy in American history, was a story of urban deterioration. Now, under the leadership of [Democratic] Mayor Mike Duggan, Detroit has a new streetcar system, dozens of new and renovated apartment complexes, gleaming new sports stadiums, an expansion of Motown's Hitsville USA museum and, above all, a fresh "can-do" ethos fostered by the auto giants General Motors and Ford working with the United Auto Workers union.

Last year, Detroit burst into U.S. News & World Report rankings of the 100 best places to live in the United States at No. 89, only one spot below Los Angeles....
Many inner cities in Saudi Arabia fester today as Detroit once did — they are miserable Third World slums that completely mock the oil riches of the kingdom. So, before MBS ventures into building new cities, perhaps he should deal with the old ones.
(What does the success of Mayor Duggan have to do with Trumpism? Are you joking? In the Trumpist alternate reality Duggan cannot even exist — every Democrat is a hateful hypocrite who wants to worsen the lives of the underclass so they will vote Democratic.)
  #92  
Old 10-19-2018, 11:26 PM
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So now the "truth" comes out.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/19/world...ntl/index.html
Quote:
Saudi Arabia has confirmed the death of missing Saudi journalist and Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi, claiming he died in a fist fight involving more than a dozen Saudi officials at the country's consulate in Istanbul.
Good thing they brought that bone saw with them or those dozen officials could have never held their own against one intrepid reporter!

Obviously 12 aren't enough to safely subdue a man without killing him.

So now they should be able to turn over his remains, right? Right?
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  #93  
Old 10-20-2018, 10:22 AM
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Thread is typically revealing. It's being made *such* a big deal of in part for US domestic political purposes. If Trump 'underreacts' he can be tarred as complicit. If he overreacts maybe we get an oil price spike that favors the party out of power*. Note, same crap has become typical with either party in power. 'Politics ends at the water's edge' is a totally obsolete concept.

Which doesn't mean it's a zero deal even in a completely realistic view. But the Obama admin's theory of the Middle East centered on rapprochement with the odious Iranian regime. The Trump theory has swung back to more closeness with the odious Saudi regime. Neither of those general themes are automatically wrong because both rivals are odious. And the (former) mushy middle concept of basing our ME policy just on closeness with Israel (now on the left it's becoming more of a requirement to be skeptical of Israel which did not used to be as true) doesn't really address the dilemma anyway.

*despite the big increase in US oil production, to where the impact on the whole US economy from oil price rises has become indeterminate at least for modest oil price increases, on a voter-weighted basis increases are still a negative, and a big increase is a negative (in part for knock on effects on demand in other trading partners).

Last edited by Corry El; 10-20-2018 at 10:24 AM.
  #94  
Old 10-20-2018, 11:08 AM
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Thread is typically revealing. It's being made *such* a big deal of in part for US domestic political purposes. If Trump 'underreacts' he can be tarred as complicit. If he overreacts maybe we get an oil price spike that favors the party out of power*. Note, same crap has become typical with either party in power. 'Politics ends at the water's edge' is a totally obsolete concept.

Which doesn't mean it's a zero deal even in a completely realistic view. But the Obama admin's theory of the Middle East centered on rapprochement with the odious Iranian regime. The Trump theory has swung back to more closeness with the odious Saudi regime. Neither of those general themes are automatically wrong because both rivals are odious. And the (former) mushy middle concept of basing our ME policy just on closeness with Israel (now on the left it's becoming more of a requirement to be skeptical of Israel which did not used to be as true) doesn't really address the dilemma anyway.

*despite the big increase in US oil production, to where the impact on the whole US economy from oil price rises has become indeterminate at least for modest oil price increases, on a voter-weighted basis increases are still a negative, and a big increase is a negative (in part for knock on effects on demand in other trading partners).
Oh come on. This game is going to cost the House of Saud billions in “investments” in the US and elsewhere and Abu Ivanka Al Ameriki knows it.
After the Kavanaugh debacle and now this, maybe Bin Fred is smarter than he looks.

Last edited by AK84; 10-20-2018 at 11:09 AM.
  #95  
Old 10-26-2018, 12:29 PM
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If the Saudis fall, what replaces them?

....
The Sunni version the ayatollahs?

....
The Ibn Saud are that already.
  #96  
Old 10-26-2018, 02:36 PM
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The Ibn Saud are that already.
While they publicly support Wahhabism and all that, their private behavior is quite something else. Which of course is the main reason they are sitting on a powder keg of religious resentment. They are quite unlike the Iranian-type Ayatollahs.
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Old 10-26-2018, 06:15 PM
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While they publicly support Wahhabism and all that, their private behavior is quite something else.
Ma sha'allah, al Khabr.... It is supposed you are informing me about the hypocrite behavior of the Ibn Saud in private? I have the personal knowledge my dear.

Quote:
. They are quite unlike the Iranian-type Ayatollahs.
Of course, they have less popular legitimacy inside of their own political and religious system.

But that is not at all relevant to what I wrote.

The person said, what would replace the Ibn Saud, the Sunni version of the ayatallah of the Chia.

The Ibn Saud are the Sunni version of the Ayatallah.
  #98  
Old 10-27-2018, 10:15 AM
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But the Obama admin's theory of the Middle East centered on rapprochement with the odious Iranian regime. The Trump theory has swung back to more closeness with the odious Saudi regime. Neither of those general themes are automatically wrong because both rivals are odious.
This makes it sound as though both administrations took sides, when the rapprochement was at best a small move towards the center.
And the nuclear deal was not at all about trusting Iran, quite the opposite.

Whereas the current administration very actively and overtly paints Iran as the bad guys, and cozies up to SA while they do basically the same things.
  #99  
Old 11-12-2018, 01:55 AM
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Updating this thread about another Saudi journalist tortured to death--with Twitter also at fault:
Quote:
Saudi journalist and writer Turki Bin Abdul Aziz Al-Jasser has died after being tortured while in detention, the New Khaleej reported yesterday.

Reporting human rights sources, the news site said that Al-Jasser was arrested and tortured to death after Saudi authorities claimed he administered the Twitter account Kashkool, which disclosed rights violations committed by the Saudi authorities and royal family.

The sources said that the authorities identified Al-Jasser as the admin using moles in Twitter’s regional office located in Dubai.
He was arrested in March.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...ath-in-prison/
  #100  
Old 06-19-2019, 06:52 PM
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The UN has published a report on the murder.

Washington Post summary:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...f6a_story.html

The complete report:
https://games-cdn.washingtonpost.com...b50406b3a3.pdf
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