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Old 04-03-2020, 09:44 AM
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Sweden do-nothing approach good, US/UK/other countries' early do-nothing approach bad. Why?


Why do scientists (and many journalists writing about it) hold up Sweden's do-nothing herd immunity approach to COVID-19 as a model where "we have much to learn from them", while the early "do nothing" approaches of the US, UK, and other countries is universally condemned?

Is this another case of blindly idealizing Scandanavian solutions -- "if Sweden does it, it has to be good", or is there a method to the madness that seemingly works in Sweden, but not under similar conditions in other nations?
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Old 04-03-2020, 09:46 AM
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If you want people to perform an analysis of something, you might want to offer them some links to what you're describing.

You know.... Sweden the deal...
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:00 AM
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Who exactly are these experts that are promoting Sweden as a model? Their numbers are worse than all the other Scandinavian countries.

They have more deaths per capita then Denmark, Norway or Finland, and more death total than all of them put together.

And there a plenty of Swedes who are quite unhappy with their government's approach. Here's a little excerpt from today's Coronavirus thread on the Sweden subreddit:

Quote:
Finns det en enda ståndpunkt som folkhälsomyndigheten varit nästan/ensam med där det visat sig att de hade rätt och resten av europa hade fel än? haha, vilket jävla fiasko detta är på väg att bli.
Translation: "Is there a single position that the public health authority has been almost / alone with where it turned out they were right and the rest of europe was wrong yet? haha, what a fucking failure this is about to be."
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:07 AM
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If you want people to perform an analysis of something, you might want to offer them some links to what you're describing.

You know.... Sweden the deal...
I don't like you.

Last edited by Hamlet; 04-03-2020 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:09 AM
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See my post on the Breaking News thread today.

Things are not working out well for Sweden.
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:18 AM
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See my post on the Breaking News thread today.

Things are not working out well for Sweden.
And Americans get to laugh at them! We have so few opportunities to laugh at a country that has fucked up as bad or worse than we, then it's the stick up their ass Swedes? Golden!
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:26 AM
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Over the last ten days the pandemic has gotten out of control in Sweden, so I'm curious as to what scientists the OP was listening to.
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:30 AM
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And Americans get to laugh at them! We have so few opportunities to laugh at a country that has fucked up as bad or worse than we, then it's the stick up their ass Swedes? Golden!
This is disgusting, even if said in jest. Neither Sweden, nor the USA, has dealt with anything like this in living memory.
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:40 AM
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Is this another case of blindly idealizing Scandanavian solutions -,
I think I see the real issue here.
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:53 AM
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Is this another case of blindly idealizing Scandanavian solutions
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I think I see the real issue here.
Sounds like another case of assuming the liberals will act in a certain way and then treating that assumption as a fact.

I haven't heard a lot about Sweden's response to the Covid crisis but what mentions to it I have heard have all been negative with the reports saying Sweden's "do-nothing approach" was wrong.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:20 AM
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The only good thing about this is it's giving us a case study of what happens in a western country if you don't do a lockdown. Some predicted it wouldn't make much of a difference. They were wrong.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:24 AM
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I think Sweden thought it had a couple of advantages that would let a light touch work. A large portion of their population can work from home and live in single person households. Not sure whether that's a "Scandinavian" thing or not.

Not to be too cold, but I'm glad a few countries are taking different tacks. I trust expert opinions but you don't see too many opportunities for a real worldwide "experiment". The UK was planning a light touch as well, so purposely gave themselves a late start on the clampdown plan. Sweden doing its thing. Brazil being ridiculous. We should have some real data for planning best practices in the future when a really scary virus breaks out.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:51 AM
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Best practices only work if the leaders of a country implement them.
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Old 04-03-2020, 12:00 PM
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Can the OP provide links to news articles where the Swedish approach has been praised? I can't recall seeing any.
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Old 04-03-2020, 12:06 PM
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Best practices only work if the leaders of a country implement them.
And?

A herd immunity strategy isn't "wrong". It might have been a reasonable approach if the hospitalizations weren't so high. And while I don't have much hope in this direction, it could end up that Sweden will end up with a similar per capita death toll at the end of the year as its neighbors.
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Old 04-03-2020, 12:28 PM
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And?
That's why the 'best practices have to be implemented' part is important.

It can't be "let the virus roam mostly free and we'll pick up the pieces after". That's not best practices. It's almost textbook negligence.

Herd immunity as a strategy is fine, but it has to be properly managed and is very difficult, as you still want to find the balance point between allowing some infection but not allowing so much that your health services are overwhelmed. Sweden didn't have a herd immunity 'strategy'. They had a herd immunity 'pipe dream' they hoped would work out.

Considering how little was known about the virus early on, especially how easily it could be transmitted, it was going to be even more difficult. Sweden erred on the wrong side of that balance, which people tend to find less forgivable than erring on the cautious side and gradually lifting aggressive restrictions.
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Old 04-03-2020, 12:33 PM
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We'll see what people "tend" to forgive. If this ends up killing less people than the flu, I can guarantee there'll be a loud contingent that will complain about the "over reaction".
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Old 04-03-2020, 12:53 PM
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In the epidemiology community, being accused over "over reacting" is considered a victory.
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:00 PM
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Sweden wasn't even approaching this with "do-nothing", it was "we don't need to make emergency orders, we can just do recommendations and us community minded Swedes will do social distancing all without and order and even better than other countries". They were wrong, but it wasn't. In neighbouring Scandinavian countries the only praise for that approach came from the "we can't break the economy"-crowd, everyone one else were in the "Oh, I hope that doesn't turn out super bad for them!"-category.
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:01 PM
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Yes, I recently watched Contagion as well. I wasn't really talking about how epidemiologists think about themselves.
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:07 PM
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That's why the 'best practices have to be implemented' part is important.

It can't be "let the virus roam mostly free and we'll pick up the pieces after". That's not best practices. It's almost textbook negligence.

Herd immunity as a strategy is fine, but it has to be properly managed and is very difficult, as you still want to find the balance point between allowing some infection but not allowing so much that your health services are overwhelmed. Sweden didn't have a herd immunity 'strategy'. They had a herd immunity 'pipe dream' they hoped would work out.

Considering how little was known about the virus early on, especially how easily it could be transmitted, it was going to be even more difficult. Sweden erred on the wrong side of that balance, which people tend to find less forgivable than erring on the cautious side and gradually lifting aggressive restrictions.
This is what I was talking about. Here in the US the Scandinavian countries have an unrealistic reputation for doing everything right. Especially Sweden. But it was no time to experiment, and it almost seemed like they were believing their own rep.

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This is disgusting, even if said in jest. Neither Sweden, nor the USA, has dealt with anything like this in living memory.
We've had plenty of chances to practice, from SARS to Ebola, which is why it was obscene that both nations dealt with it so poorly. We knew what to do. We just thought this time would be different.
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:15 PM
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This is what I was talking about. Here in the US the Scandinavian countries have an unrealistic reputation for doing everything right. Especially Sweden. But it was no time to experiment, and it almost seemed like they were believing their own rep.

We've had plenty of chances to practice, from SARS to Ebola, which is why it was obscene that both nations dealt with it so poorly. We knew what to do. We just thought this time would be different.
LoL

SARS cases worldwide: 8000

Ebola cases in the USA: 4 with 7 imported besides the fact that ebola is completely different from this pandemic in how it is spread and its mortality rate.

We, nor anyone else, 'knew what to do'.
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:18 PM
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The only good thing about this is it's giving us a case study of what happens in a western country if you don't do a lockdown. Some predicted it wouldn't make much of a difference. They were wrong.
Doing a lockdown during an ebola outbreak would be just about the worst thing we could do. Each pandemic is different and presents its own unique challenges.
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:36 PM
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This is what I was talking about. Here in the US the Scandinavian countries have an unrealistic reputation for doing everything right. Especially Sweden. But it was no time to experiment, and it almost seemed like they were believing their own rep.
I find it hard to believe that Swedish health authorities spend a lot of time considering how their actions will affect their country's reputation among American liberals when formulating local responses to crises.
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Old 04-03-2020, 02:10 PM
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Sweden hasn't done nothing but they've done much less stringent social distancing than most of the other Western nations, and much less strong of a response than very similar Denmark next door, which responded much early and stronger than most other Western nations. They are both at the same day past 1 death/million population

Currently Denmark is running better than the typical Western nation has run at day 14 past the 1 death/million mark - 18% growth and 21.1 deaths/million population.

Sweden slightly worse - 29% growth and 29.8 deaths/million population.

For comparison Spain was at 30% and 77.4, France at 18% and 29.8, and Italy at 16% and 41.5.

Denmark's early aggressive clearly is showing results.

So far they are managing with a lower death rate than other Western countries for the point in their course, but on the higher end for growth rate. Not as bad as Spain but still. No one can really say where they will end up other than highly likely with more deaths per million than Denmark. How many more? More than Denmark might have as a consequence of economic issues from the early aggressive approach? Probably, but no one can actually say they know at this point.
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Old 04-03-2020, 02:24 PM
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Uggh, but these numbers are so small. There's a total of 139 fatalities in Denmark, so one guy getting lucky changes things by a lot.

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Old 04-03-2020, 03:55 PM
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If you want people to perform an analysis of something, you might want to offer them some links to what you're describing.

You know.... Sweden the deal...
Here ya' go! Just the headlines alone say it all. I haven't seen any article that described the lackluster US/UK approach as "unique", "relaxed", "stands apart", "a different path", allowing "a liberal amount of personal freedom:, or "time will tell if it's the right way". The language in the articles about Sweden is a lot more forgiving then for the US.

This is what Sweden's unusual approach to the coronavirus pandemic looks like
Video: https://www.facebook.com/worldeconom...2540920039261/

Life is carrying on as normal in Sweden - scientists explain the controversial approach
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/...nce-behind-it/

Coronavirus: Sweden's unique approach to fighting the pandemic
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe...g-the-pandemic

In the coronavirus fight in Scandinavia, Sweden stands apart
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...rt/ar-BB11Qynv

As the rest of Europe lives under lockdown, Sweden keeps calm and carries on
All its neighbours have shut up shop to beat coronavirus but the Swedes insist ‘we are not in quarantine’. Is that the right approach?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...and-carries-on

Lockdown, what lockdown? Sweden's unusual response to coronavirus
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52076293

Sweden's approach to fighting the coronavirus includes a liberal amount of personal freedom
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/sweden-s...rsonal-freedom

Last edited by elmwood; 04-03-2020 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 04-03-2020, 04:17 PM
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I'm not seeing a lot in those articles about how "we have much to learn from them" from Sweden with their approach as you claimed in the OP.

If anything, there's a fair amount of skepticism and "let's wait and see". Several of the articles do mention the differences (lower population density and greater trust of government) between Sweden and the US/UK that could possibly make it work but there's not the glowing acceptance of Sweden's approach implied in the OP.
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Old 04-03-2020, 04:25 PM
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Why do scientists (and many journalists writing about it) hold up Sweden's do-nothing herd immunity approach to COVID-19 as a model ...
Who sez this is the case?
(ETA particularly the "Scientist" part and the "holding it up as a model" part.)

Last edited by bobot; 04-03-2020 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 04-03-2020, 05:46 PM
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The language in the articles about Sweden is a lot more forgiving then for the US.
That's because the Swedish approach was based on having a small number of initial cases, and a high degree of social pressure. The American approach was based on having a high level of self-inflicted ignorance and a high degree of libertarianism.

Virtually opposite situations. And of course, the outcomes aren't actually the same.
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Old 04-03-2020, 06:09 PM
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Here ya' go! Just the headlines alone say it all. I haven't seen any article that described the lackluster US/UK approach as "unique", "relaxed", "stands apart", "a different path", allowing "a liberal amount of personal freedom:, or "time will tell if it's the right way". The language in the articles about Sweden is a lot more forgiving then for the US.

This is what Sweden's unusual approach to the coronavirus pandemic looks like
Video: https://www.facebook.com/worldeconom...2540920039261/

Life is carrying on as normal in Sweden - scientists explain the controversial approach
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/...nce-behind-it/

Coronavirus: Sweden's unique approach to fighting the pandemic
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe...g-the-pandemic

In the coronavirus fight in Scandinavia, Sweden stands apart
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...rt/ar-BB11Qynv

As the rest of Europe lives under lockdown, Sweden keeps calm and carries on
All its neighbours have shut up shop to beat coronavirus but the Swedes insist ‘we are not in quarantine’. Is that the right approach?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...and-carries-on

Lockdown, what lockdown? Sweden's unusual response to coronavirus
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52076293

Sweden's approach to fighting the coronavirus includes a liberal amount of personal freedom
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/sweden-s...rsonal-freedom
Not one of these is praising Sweden. They're reporting what is happening. The reporting is balanced. They are talking about what is being done and they mention criticism.
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Old 04-03-2020, 06:58 PM
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We'll see what people "tend" to forgive. If this ends up killing less people than the flu, I can guarantee there'll be a loud contingent that will complain about the "over reaction".

Trust me they already are whining about it.


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Old 04-03-2020, 07:06 PM
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Sweden do-nothing approach good, US/UK/other countries' early do-nothing approach bad. Why?


I posted this on another thread but for what it is worth based on this study of the Spanish flu economies that more aggressively enforce social distancing bounce back more than those that do not:


https://www.inquirer.com/health/coro...-20200402.html

1. There is zero guarantee that herd immunity will save an economy. As a matter of fact I would suggest that a megadeath, even if it’s mostly retirees, could have an even more devastating effect on it.

2. Unless you can guarantee that there is zero way to prevent everyone from getting affected by a virus, and there is absolutely no medical treatment for it, forced herd immunity of a potentially fatal disease is immoral.


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Last edited by russian heel; 04-03-2020 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 04-03-2020, 09:20 PM
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Not one of these is praising Sweden. They're reporting what is happening. The reporting is balanced. They are talking about what is being done and they mention criticism.
This is also what Sweden's do-nothing approach looks like:
https://www.worldometers.info/corona...ountry/sweden/
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Old 04-03-2020, 09:39 PM
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As a comparison, my town of Hoboken, NJ (pop 55,000, total area 1.25 sq miles...I guess "Mile and a Quarter Square City" doesn't have the same ring to it) pretty much went on lockdown March 13 when we had maybe 1 identified case. Schools closed. Bar, restaurants, coffee shops all closed except takeout or delivery. Grocery stores started limiting occupancy. Parks closed. We are at 152 known cases as of 4/3 (2 deaths).

Given the density of the town and Hudson County in general (it's effectively a sixth borough of New York City), our proximity to New York, and the sheer number of bars and restaurants, I have to think the rate would be disastrously higher if we did nothing.
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Old 04-04-2020, 04:41 PM
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As a comparison, my town of Hoboken, NJ (pop 55,000, total area 1.25 sq miles...I guess "Mile and a Quarter Square City" doesn't have the same ring to it) pretty much went on lockdown March 13 when we had maybe 1 identified case. Schools closed. Bar, restaurants, coffee shops all closed except takeout or delivery. Grocery stores started limiting occupancy. Parks closed. We are at 152 known cases as of 4/3 (2 deaths).

Given the density of the town and Hudson County in general (it's effectively a sixth borough of New York City), our proximity to New York, and the sheer number of bars and restaurants, I have to think the rate would be disastrously higher if we did nothing.
It should have taken you about 14-21 days to get from 1 case to 128 cases assuming a doubling every 2-3 days (that's with no mitigation). So if this is all organic growth, then you are still on a glide path to disaster. But I suspect a lot of these cases are not organic to Hoboken but imported from places like NYC. You don't get to 1000 infected until days 20-30.

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Old 04-04-2020, 04:47 PM
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elmwood, did you actually read the things you posted links to? They simply do not say what your OP implies they say.
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Old 04-04-2020, 05:43 PM
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Not one of these is praising Sweden. They're reporting what is happening. The reporting is balanced. They are talking about what is being done and they mention criticism.
That was my impression too, reading through those articles. There was a strong undergone of “the Swedes better hope their government is right about this...”. Plus, several of the articles mention the letter to the government signed by 2,000 doctors, warning that the approach Sweden is taking is dangerous.
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Old 04-04-2020, 09:41 PM
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Here ya' go! Just the headlines alone say it all.
And here's what you read if you go past the headlines:

A growing number of Swedish doctors and scientists are raising alarm over the Swedish government’s approach to COVID-19.

Others are convinced that Sweden is hurtling toward a disaster of biblical proportions and that the direction of travel must change.

But some scientists have criticised the Swedish Public Health Agency's approach as irresponsible during a worldwide pandemic that has already killed over 21,000 people in Europe.

Linnarsson compared Sweden's handling of the virus to letting a kitchen fire burn with the intent of extinguishing it later.

"That doesn't make any sense. And the danger, of course, is that it burns the whole house down," he said.


A recent headline in the Danish newspaper Politiken encapsulates the question ricocheting around Europe: “Doesn’t Sweden take the corona crisis seriously?”

Sweden’s method flies in the face of most nations’ stricter strategies.

The infection curve in Sweden has started to rise sharply, and Friday the government tightened the limit on crowds to no more than 50 people.

It has only been in the past couple of days that the death toll has started to increase significantly, rising by a third in a single day on Thursday and Friday, with 92 people now dead and 209 in intensive care.

There is criticism, however. More than 2,000 Swedish university researchers published a joint letter on Wednesday questioning the Public Health Agency’s position, while the previous week saw leading epidemiologists attack the agency in emails leaked to Swedish television.

“How many lives are they willing to sacrifice so as not to lockdown and risk greater effects on the economy?” asked one, Joacim Rocklöv, a professor of epidemiology at Umeå University.


But as Swedes watch the rest of Europe grind to a halt, others are starting to question their country's unique approach.

"I think people are prone to listen to the recommendations, but in this kind of critical situation, I am not sure that it's enough," says Dr Emma Frans


The overall effect I'm seeing is that these articles are reporting on what the Swedish government is doing - but they are not offering support for it. The only support that's being given for the loose policy is coming from quotes by Swedish government officials and some "man on the street" interviews from Swedes. And the articles all note that scientists and physicians disagree with the policies and they note that the policies are showing early signs of failing.

There is nothing in these articles to support your claim that people are saying the Swedish approach is good.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 04-04-2020 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 04-04-2020, 10:21 PM
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There is method in the madness, but it isn't directed at the current situation. Sweden is going for herd immunity. Protect the vulnerable, push R down, but only to extend the peak. Assume your protection of the vulnerable will keep the medical system from becoming overwhelmed. At the end you have herd immunity. However, they are playing with very sensitive parameters. And a significant set of unknowns. It could easily blow up in their face.

What I don't see in this is exactly how Sweden is protecting its vulnerable. Nor indeed how they have identified them. It isn't just age.

But, and this is where the entire planet has a problem. There are only two paths to herd immunity. Vaccine, or infection. The former has the risk and problem that it is probably 18 months away. Do we stay in lockdown for 18 months? Do we think we can protect the vulnerable for this long, or are we just delaying the inevitable?

You could argue that Sweden and the rest of the planet are on the same path, but have chosen different parameters to get there. They are betting on letting the curve rise higher but for shorter. But they think they can keep it under control enough not be be overwhelmed. Most other countries don't think they can keep from being overwhelmed with the parameters Sweden has chosen, and suspect that Sweden won't be able to either.

Modelling for Australia from Sydney Uni suggested that the difference between 70% and 80% compliance with the current distancing and restrictions here was the difference between continued exponential growth and containing the numbers. I can't imagine Sweden would not see similar sensitivity. Apparently, the current stats in Oz suggest we are getting 90% compliance - that is the Corvid-19 case numbers track the 90% compliance prediction curve.

OTOH, nobody seems to be providing a path past the current restrictions. Waiting for a vaccine is all that is held out. That strategy is not without risk itself. A significant number of experts have advised that most people should expect to be infected. Which is the question about the inevitable. Then it comes back to the question about overwhelming of the medical system. And that is probably the dominant question. How do you tune your system to manage that especially when the parameters seems overly sensitive. Caution seems to be the answer. But it is a two edged question. Too successful a lockdown means you can only wait for a vaccine. A slightly less extreme one deliberately allows the infection to spread, but with a load that can be managed. If you get it right. If you don't, you get overwhelmed. The current goal seems to be one of managing the infection rate, keeping it within a small spread, via lockdown parameters. This is probably not the best answer.
  #42  
Old 04-05-2020, 08:32 AM
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So apparently the Dutch are also going with a very light touch as well:
BBC: Why Dutch lockdown may be a high-risk strategy
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Old 04-05-2020, 03:52 PM
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I see death counts attributed to COVID. Have we counts of EXCESS deaths and non-virus hospitalizations? How many Swedes are just too sick to be effective but not close to death? Besides medics, fire crews, police, and similar responders, how impacted are Swedish support services - plumbers, trashmen, road crews, market workers?
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Old 04-05-2020, 03:59 PM
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It is early to say but Sweden may flattening their curve with their less harsh approach. Per numbers reported on 91-DIVOC their deaths/million on day 16 after having reached 1 death per million is at 4%, third day in a row dropping, was 33% on day 13. Still could be small n noise (especially all the way down to 4%) but three days starts to look like something real. Total deaths/million at 36.1.

Denmark, again earlier to the process than most and firmer, same day 16, is at 16%, day 13 was also 16%. Total deaths of 27.7/million.

It's still way too early to pass judgment and it certainly was a risky thing to do. Criticism was justified. I doubt the 4% is real. But so far its approach is resulting in a less awful deaths curve than Spain, France, Italy, the U.K., Belgium, the Netherlands, and even Switzerland, have had.
  #45  
Old 04-05-2020, 04:56 PM
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The Netherlands also seems to be flattening since the 30th.
  #46  
Old 04-05-2020, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leahcim View Post
I find it hard to believe that Swedish health authorities spend a lot of time considering how their actions will affect their country's reputation among American liberals when formulating local responses to crises.
Note my fondness for weasel words:
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... it almost seemed like they were believing their own rep.
  #47  
Old 04-06-2020, 10:22 AM
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As a comparison, my town of Hoboken, NJ (pop 55,000, total area 1.25 sq miles...I guess "Mile and a Quarter Square City" doesn't have the same ring to it) pretty much went on lockdown March 13 when we had maybe 1 identified case. Schools closed. Bar, restaurants, coffee shops all closed except takeout or delivery. Grocery stores started limiting occupancy. Parks closed. We are at 152 known cases as of 4/3 (2 deaths).

Given the density of the town and Hudson County in general (it's effectively a sixth borough of New York City), our proximity to New York, and the sheer number of bars and restaurants, I have to think the rate would be disastrously higher if we did nothing.
And if Hoboken closes its bars, you know it's just about the end of the world. For the actual end, they reopen.
  #48  
Old 04-06-2020, 01:46 PM
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Why do scientists (and many journalists writing about it) hold up Sweden's do-nothing herd immunity approach to COVID-19 as a model where "we have much to learn from them"[...]
I think that the one you were thinking of is Jared Kushner and he is not a scientist. Sweden is not a model to follow, it is a disaster about to happen and it will turn into a control group for the others who will know thanks to them how much better thier approach was. Well, somebody had to do it, and after the United Kingdom and the Netherlands chickened out it fell on the poor Swedes. I'm sorry for them, but life's a bitch sometimes...
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  #49  
Old 04-06-2020, 04:56 PM
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Pardel-Lux, have you actually bothered to look at the updated per million death rates curves for Sweden in comparison to other countries?

Exactly how much better results have other countries seen with their approaches? Comparing by day after 1 death per millions please.

The flattening of the curve over the last several days there is now a consistent trend, clearly NOT something that can be waved away as statistical noise at this point. They have a slower growth rate at this same point of days after one death per million than neighbor Denmark which embraced the much more aggressive intervention approach very early on, and are on track to top off (for at least this surge) at somewhere less than 50 deaths per million, which might end up very similar to where Denmark tops off. And much better than most other Western nations.

It is really hard to look at their current deaths curve and conclude that the facts on the ground are consistent with your confident assertion. It is much more consistent with the assertion that the Swedes were right, and that targeted interventions can give similar results with less economic (and thus eventually real morbidity and mortality) impacts than broader quarantines.

They did NOT do "nothing" and what they did do may represent what is at least safe to transition to as a first part of phase two after the (first?) surge peaks here.
  #50  
Old 04-06-2020, 05:14 PM
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Maybe we should blindly follow Swedish plans from now on? This would be easier if there was a Scandinavian consensus here.
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