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  #51  
Old 04-19-2020, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
The short, short and overly generalized answer is that the left has a positive view of government. It is a tool to achieve social equality and do good.

The right generally views government with suspicion as a tool that oppresses unless it is kept at a bare minimum.
Incorrect. Liberals want government to help people while their opposites, the mentally enslaved right, wants government to hurt people. Spend more on prisons than schools. Promote pollution. Health plan: Don't get sick.

You think liberals trust government? You must be very young. I can re-do an old chant directed at Lyndon Johnson.
Hey, hey, Donald J.
How many sp!cks did you kill today?
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Originally Posted by UltraVires
It's pretty scary to me that the government has claimed the power to force you to stay in your home, unable to assemble or to go to church.
You do not have the right to spread contagion. Stay home except for essential outings. Stay away from me. Worship online. Assemble after a usable vaccine is administered.

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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Oh this tired argument again. These rights are fundamental. The core of these rights are not subject to balancing tests.
Courts disagree with you. Your fundamental right to assemble ends at my property line or a police barricade. Your fundamental right to free speech ends with slander or incitement to riot. Your fundamental right to bear arms doesn't include personal nukes. Like I said, if you don't like emergency declarations, tell a judge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasmoocher View Post
Also, remember Trump could possibly be prosecuted by a Democratic admin for obstruction of justice as detailed in the Mueller report once he out of office, so that may contribute his desperation about re-election because of that being on his mind.
That's been my take on his decision process all along. He'd rather die in Bethesda than Leavenworth.
  #52  
Old 04-19-2020, 08:13 PM
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Nany Pelosi implored her constituents to go out and celebrate in Chinatown long after other places started lockdown orders.
Uh, no.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/tr...and-chinatown/
Quote:
So, Pelosi mentioned the Chinese New Year parade. But she did not say, “‘Let’s all have the big parade — Chinatown parade,'” as Trump maintained during the April 13 coronavirus briefing. In fact, the parade occurred on Feb. 8.

And, while she encouraged people to “visit and enjoy Chinatown” and called it “very safe,” Trump went too far in saying at his April 15 briefing that Pelosi “was trying to have, in San Francisco, parties in Chinatown, because she thought it would be great.” Pelosi didn’t mention parties during her visit.

As for the coronavirus, Pelosi didn’t deny its existence — contrary to Trump’s remarks — while visiting Chinatown. She struck a middle ground. “Prevention, prevention, prevention. We want people to be concerned and vigilant,” she said. “However, we don’t want them to be afraid.”

During her excursion, Pelosi was asked if it was irrational for people to stay away from Asian-American-owned businesses in San Francisco and elsewhere.

“Well, that’s one of the reasons we are here today,” she replied. “It doesn’t make any sense, but it’s not just Asian-owned now. You see in Italy where the shows – the fashion shows and all of that were done without an audience because people – they just didn’t – because people were not coming. So, again, this fear is – I think – unwarranted in light of the precautions that are being taken here in the United States.”

But in response to a question, Pelosi rejected the notion that racism was the reason people were avoiding Asian businesses.

“I don’t know that,” she said. “But, I do think that because it started in China, there’s a concern that are the – is the Chinese government doing what it needed to do early enough, and now as we go forward. But that should not be carried over to Chinatown and San Francisco.”

Asked whether she felt the federal government was doing enough to control the virus, Pelosi said, “I have confidence in Dr. [Anthony] Fauci at the National Institutes of Health, who has even further confidence in what we’re doing.”

Trump and Pelosi have long had a frosty relationship, one that wasn’t warmed up by the impeachment battle. And the president has bristled at her criticism that he was slow to react to the threat of the novel coronavirus. On March 29, on CNN’s “State of the Union,” she said, “his denial at the beginning was deadly. His delaying of getting equipment to where — it continues — his delay in getting equipment to where it’s needed is deadly.”

Trump returned fire the following day in an interview on Fox News’ “Fox & Friends,” assailing Pelosi as a “sick puppy.”

To sum up: Pelosi did visit Chinatown in late February in an effort to encourage people to go there to eat and shop. But she did not support parades or parties, try to show the coronavirus didn’t exist or delete a tweet of her visit, as Trump claimed.
  #53  
Old 04-19-2020, 08:30 PM
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And to correct another inaccuracy:

Quote:
Originally posted by Sam Stone

The FDA refused to allow any existent COVID-19 testing, wanting to use their own test - which they then screwed up through poor lab safety protocols. This delayed the start of testing in the U.S. by weeks.
It was the CDC that developed the coronavirus test, which initially contained a contaminated negative control reagent that came up positive for the virus. It was up to the FDA to approve the CDC test for use.

Contamination at CDC lab was likely cause of critical early delays in rolling out coronavirus testing
  #54  
Old 04-19-2020, 08:46 PM
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It should also be noted that Trump has specifically targeted states with Democratic governors (VA. MI, MN), but has not mentioned states with Republican governors who have instituted similar lockdowns (OH). Culture wars, anyone?
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  #55  
Old 04-19-2020, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
But my issue, for the reasons I have stated in other threads, is that it is a very dangerous precedent to be able to label this a *special circumstance to proscribe rights. Every tinpot dictator can label something "special." What it means in the end is that freedom keeps getting chipped away at. This virus will pass but this precedent will not.
It's really simple:

People can continue to worship IF they don't gather in groups in such a manner as to spread disease.

Otherwise they are just as free to worship whatever they choose as they were before. Absolutely NOTHING in any Abrahamic religion requires people to gather together in massive, jammed together groups every Sunday.

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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I would rather leave my daughter with a just as free or freer society than the one I grew up in, even if this virus kills me (or a terrorist kills me, or a DUI driver kills me, or whatever the demon du jour is). I am not a conspiracy theorist. This shit is real. But a precedent for restrictions on freedom is even more real and longer lasting.
You want to take away MY freedom to make MY choice. MY choice is to comply with medical instructions because I want to live. I do not want to die of this. I reject your notion that your freedom is worth more than the lives of other people.

What good is "freedom" if it kills me? The constitution, the bill of rights, and society are not and should not be a suicide pact.
  #56  
Old 04-19-2020, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Oredigger77 View Post
Like I said; I'm not in a good position to opine. I've made more money since my state was locked down then I had the rest of this year. I couldn't dream of a better working environment for myself except I wish my kids could go to school. I also know that for my friends who were a banquet manager at a hotel, a bartender, a waiter, and a facilities manager at a bar this question wasn't theoretical and when faced with staying home unemployed or risking getting the virus every one of them got jobs are grocery stores.

Let's put the question to you. Why haven't you quit your job rather than risking getting the virus? If I remember other threads correctly you work in a grocery store. It seems you're ok risking permanant disability rather than unempolyment.
I actually addressed this in another thread.

Those who work in grocery stores were not given a choice.

If we quit we do NOT get unemployment because you don't get it if you leave "voluntarily". So if I leave I will have zero income, no health insurance, and with no other jobs available I would shortly blow through my savings and lose everything I currently have and be left homeless. During a pandemic.

So... granted all those millions laid off are having a hell of a time trying to get onto unemployment, but once they do they at least get something, and extra money a week at least for awhile.

So... either risk illness and death, or risk being homeless and destitute. That's a hell of a non-choice don't you think?
  #57  
Old 04-19-2020, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
oh, sorry. i said that Pelosi said people should go to Chinatown and celebrate. You 'refuted' that with a quote that admits that Pelosi DID tell her constituents to go to Chinatown and celebrate. Do I have that right?

The rest of your quote was just another 'Orange Man Bad' description, which has zero to do with what I said, and contains stuff I never disputed and actually agree with.

You need to stop jerking your leg and rushing out to Google every time you see a message that differs from your priors in any way. or id you are going to, you should at least attempt to stay on point.
  #58  
Old 04-19-2020, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dasmoocher View Post
And to correct another inaccuracy:



It was the CDC that developed the coronavirus test, which initially contained a contaminated negative control reagent that came up positive for the virus. It was up to the FDA to approve the CDC test for use.

Contamination at CDC lab was likely cause of critical early delays in rolling out coronavirus testing
Yep sorry, I conflated the FDA with the CDC on that one small point. Since I was talking about failures at all of them, it hardly changes the point.
  #59  
Old 04-19-2020, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
oh, sorry. i said that Pelosi said people should go to Chinatown and celebrate. You 'refuted' that with a quote that admits that Pelosi DID tell her constituents to go to Chinatown and celebrate. Do I have that right?
Wrong again, the most accurate way is that it was advised to go to get takeouts, keep social distancing, visit. Not to go to celebrations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
The rest of your quote was just another 'Orange Man Bad' description, which has zero to do with what I said, and contains stuff I never disputed and actually agree with.
Wrong again, I was pointing where those items came from, it is really sad to realize that while you can be dubious of Trump the sad thing is that what he declares you got it by osmosis from some dubious sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
You need to stop jerking your leg and rushing out to Google every time you see a message that differs from your priors in any way. or id you are going to, you should at least attempt to stay on point.
The point I make is very clear, at the same time you post some good information there are some very shitty items inside the candy shell.

Just saying that you should be continuously put on notice that you should stop relying on those sources for information, you are just then using a lot of trash to prop up very, very dubious points.

And BTW, you should use Google too before referring to very regurgitated dubious points, it is not just for liberal minded fellows ok?

Last edited by GIGObuster; 04-19-2020 at 10:05 PM.
  #60  
Old 04-19-2020, 10:45 PM
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Both of you shut up about each others Google habits - or any others - or it will not go well for you.

I hope that's clear.
  #61  
Old 04-19-2020, 10:48 PM
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Yep sorry, I conflated the FDA with the CDC on that one small point. Since I was talking about failures at all of them, it hardly changes the point.
You're right. Both are part of Trump's executive branch and run by his appointees.
  #62  
Old 04-19-2020, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
You should read the posts in a thread before responding. Nobody is saying the Republicans eat babies or enslave people. They're saying the Republicans are generally the party that's calling for an end to lockdown policies.

If you want to dispute that position, go ahead. If you want to defend that position, go ahead. But don't bring your strawmen into the argument.
It's not a strawman, post #7

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Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post
Because the freedom to rape, destroy, and plunder is a bedrock value to them. They say it differently, but that's what is at the bottom. They hate science for being about facts when what they care about is emotions, like guns make me feel safe, brown skinned people make me feel afraid, nobody is sick that I know, and that's all I have an interest in knowing about. Newspapers are fake news, the CDC is part of an international global conspiracy to take away our freedoms, see sentence #1.

Simpler: they are evil idiots, the blight of planet earth. That's the rational, reasonable answer.
"the freedom to rape, destroy, and plunder is a bedrock value to them.
...
they are evil idiots, the blight of planet earth
"
Granted, nothing about eating babies or bathing in tears, but it's plain gaslighting to deny the vicious demonization going on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I would add that a lot of the public anger at the lockdown may not necessarily be over the lockdown itself, but the way it is communicated. Fairly or unfairly, it has come across to many people as, "Who cares if you lose your jobs or go bankrupt, you need to be locked down for the good of society overall. Suck it up and deal with it."
It would be interesting to see a poll of people in favor or against lockdowns that factors in the participants ability to afford food and shelter when they are out of a job.

In any case it's not as if being at risk has kept people from heigh-hoing their way to work, every day people perform dangerous jobs where they are exposed to serious injury, death or long term health problems so that they can support themselves and their families and so that others can enjoy a higher standard of living.

In the end saying to people "I'm scared so you must to do as I said" is a hard sell, specially when calling those people evil idiots or worse.
  #63  
Old 04-19-2020, 11:54 PM
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Fair enough on the note, the main point then going forward is that one should notice that on this, many times the positions of the Republicans are not really understandable, simply because they are coming from a lot of ignorance relying on ignorance.

Take for example the one that has Republicans praising Trump for not following what others leaders did in time of crisis, like using the power of government to organize resources to get crucial medical equipment into hospitals, the result has been a mess, the result had been graft and the tax payers money wasted well beyond to what even an unscrupulous price gouger would consider excessive.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.105...&ICID=ref_fark
Quote:
Hours before our planned departure, we were told to expect only a quarter of our original order. We went anyway, since we desperately needed any supplies we could get. Upon arrival, we were jubilant to see pallets of KN95 respirators and face masks being unloaded. We opened several boxes, examined their contents, and hoped that this random sample would be representative of the entire shipment. Before we could send the funds by wire transfer, two Federal Bureau of Investigation agents arrived, showed their badges, and started questioning me. No, this shipment was not headed for resale or the black market. The agents checked my credentials, and I tried to convince them that the shipment of PPE was bound for hospitals. After receiving my assurances and hearing about our health system’s urgent needs, the agents let the boxes of equipment be released and loaded into the trucks. But I was soon shocked to learn that the Department of Homeland Security was still considering redirecting our PPE. Only some quick calls leading to intervention by our congressional representative prevented its seizure. I remained nervous and worried on the long drive back, feelings that did not abate until midnight, when I received the call that the PPE shipment was secured at our warehouse.

This experience might have made for an entertaining tale at a cocktail party, had the success of our mission not been so critical. Did I foresee, as a health-system leader working in a rich, highly developed country with state-of-the-art science and technology and incredible talent, that my organization would ever be faced with such a set of circumstances? Of course not. Yet when encountering the severe constraints that attend this pandemic, we must leave no stone unturned to give our health care teams and our patients a fighting chance. This is the unfortunate reality we face in the time of Covid-19.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 04-19-2020 at 11:55 PM.
  #64  
Old 04-19-2020, 11:57 PM
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That's good to hear. I read and participate in message boards on both the right and the left, and I see both sides claiming that the other side are the ones who are irrational and screwing up. The truth is, people are people. There are assholes and idiots everywhere, and great people everywhere.
Ninety percent of the stupidity and lies in American politics comes from the Republicans. And I'm being generous to them.
  #65  
Old 04-19-2020, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
shortened
...
2. Another point they make is that the 'movers and shakers' making decisions about when to open up are generally in a position where the lockdown doesn't really hurt them that much. If you're a keyboard warrior in your spare time and a government office worker, chances are you're still getting your salary and you're still doing the same things you did before the lockdown. If you're a media person or a politician you can generally keep working. To these people, the cost/benefit of a lockdown looks a lot different than someone in, say Texas with four unruly kids in the house, a mortgage payment due, no money for food, and everything you do for fun and relaxation involves being outdoors. Then they go out to a park with their kid and get fined $800, despite the fact that they don't know anyone who is sick and their whole community only has a handful of cases.
...
People who bust their ass all day every day to make a living generally don't have the time or interest to expostulate endlessly on the internet; they are outside the bubble and people here should have the decency of acknowledging that and also that propitiating a depression by overreacting will hurt those people more than the rich.
  #66  
Old 04-20-2020, 12:05 AM
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According to a Morning Consult poll:
Quote:
The survey of 1,996 registered voters, conducted March 20-22, finds roughly 3 in 4 voters back a national quarantine, in which all public activity, save for essential travel such as trips to the grocery store and pharmacy, would be prohibited.
There's also a breakdown by party, and for 'generation'. One can guess that the GenZ and Millenial cohort are more apt to be lacking the ability to afford food and shelter when out of a job (being younger and all), and they both approve of quarantine at the rate of 73%.

In sum, unless that poll is wildly wrong, a large majority are not in favor of relaxing quarantine, and in many states they'd like stricter measures in place.
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  #67  
Old 04-20-2020, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Ale View Post
People who bust their ass all day every day to make a living generally don't have the time or interest to expostulate endlessly on the internet; they are outside the bubble and people here should have the decency of acknowledging that and also that propitiating a depression by overreacting will hurt those people more than the rich.
I think the Point there was what the Republicans propose as being understandable not that the poster did agree 100% with that; again, when it is going against science and expert advice what the Republicans propose is not really understandable.

https://www.ft.com/content/e593e7d4-...7-426eee43bcbc
Quote:
Economists are united in support of the coronavirus lockdown
Abandoning stringent measures now will lead to worse damage in the long term, they believe
Quote:
Some ask whether the cure might be worse than the disease. But the reply from economists is a resounding “no”.

“In times of great uncertainty, most economists think the government should intervene,” said Rachel Griffith, president of the UK’s Royal Economic Society and professor of economics at the University of Manchester.

Surveys show a striking degree of consensus among top economists in favour of the lockdowns.

The IGM Economic Experts Panel’s latest survey of top US macroeconomists asked for their view of the statement “Abandoning severe lockdowns at a time when the likelihood of a resurgence in infections remains high will lead to greater total economic damage than sustaining the lockdowns to eliminate the resurgence risk”. Eighty per cent of the panel agreed, the rest were uncertain or did not respond. Not a single expert disagreed.

In Europe, 65 per cent of respondents agreed that “severe lockdowns — including closing non-essential businesses and strict limitations on people’s movement — are likely to be better for the economy in the medium term than less aggressive measures”. Only 4 per cent disagreed.

“Clearly there is a cost” to the lockdowns, said Ms Griffith, “but what is the counterfactual? The cost of not containing the virus would be greater — even economically.” Not only was saving lives inherently valuable, but fear of contagion would cause economic disruption even in the absence of government action, she explained.
Many Republicans in the highest levels of power are ignoring what needs to be done too, as in having more testing available to identify where is that ending restrictions will be ok. Unfortunately, I have seen reports were the testing has also been mired in the same insane free for all for equipment that will continue to waste taxpayer money in the most affected states and their time.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 04-20-2020 at 12:23 AM.
  #68  
Old 04-20-2020, 12:27 AM
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The answer is simple.

Trump wants to start having his Nuremberg-esque rallies again.
  #69  
Old 04-20-2020, 01:04 AM
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The answer is simple.

Trump wants to start having his Nuremberg-esque rallies again.
That may be a factor, but I do think the one about allowing graft at the highest levels is easier to continue as long as chaos is, the most effective way to get cronies and future kickback supporters to continue in the gravy train of money made with the health equipment is to end restrictions sooner.
  #70  
Old 04-20-2020, 01:06 AM
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And the ironic part of this is, if the situation is dealt with succesfully, then the only thing a lot of the country will have felt directly in their lives will have been the economic disruption. They'll be propagandized to the effect of, it was never going to be that bad, the eggheads made your shop go bankrupt and your retirement fund fall by half for nothing.

(As to the hotspots... well, what would you expect from filthy overcrowded corrupt places where of course things would go bad, you know how dirty and irresponsible Those People are and what inept leaders they elect.)
Yes, I think that if the first big hot spot had been some small town in Kansas or Kentucky the "open the country back up now!" people would be a little more subdued because it would have shown anywhere can get hit.
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Old 04-20-2020, 12:39 PM
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I think it's important to start the conversation of when to end the restrictions. Now is too early IMO but I don't think we should wait until the vaccine is ready either.

Personally I'm employed full-time working from home so the restrictions are a minor inconvenience for me but it's been devastating to the small business owners in the community I live in.
  #72  
Old 04-20-2020, 01:55 PM
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Otherwise they are just as free to worship whatever they choose as they were before. Absolutely NOTHING in any Abrahamic religion requires people to gather together in massive, jammed together groups every Sunday.
How do I take the Eucharist on-line?
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Old 04-20-2020, 02:14 PM
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How do I take the Eucharist on-line?
You can take Communion one on one.


Not "people to gather together in massive, jammed together groups every Sunday"

There are online Mass:


http://www.usccb.org/about/communica...g-covid-19.cfm

Not to mention:Pope Francis has reminded the faithful that “spiritual Communion” - inviting Jesus into one’s heart and soul when receiving the actual sacrament isn’t possible - is part of Catholic tradition.

https://cruxnow.com/covid-19/2020/03...olic-practice/

So, the Pope personally has said you dont need to gather and has said to stay home.
  #74  
Old 04-20-2020, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
You should read the posts in a thread before responding. Nobody is saying the Republicans eat babies or enslave people. They're saying the Republicans are generally the party that's calling for an end to lockdown policies.

If you want to dispute that position, go ahead. If you want to defend that position, go ahead. But don't bring your strawmen into the argument.
Oh please. This thread is littered with the likes of, "Republican don't listen to science! They're all rich assholes who just want the poor to starve anyway! They want to see people die!" I didn't even have to read most of the thread to get that impression. I also figured that'd be the case since that's all you see in any, "Why do Republicans..." posts (because Republicans are all identical).
  #75  
Old 04-20-2020, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
You can take Communion one on one.


Not "people to gather together in massive, jammed together groups every Sunday"

There are online Mass:


http://www.usccb.org/about/communica...g-covid-19.cfm

Not to mention:Pope Francis has reminded the faithful that “spiritual Communion” - inviting Jesus into one’s heart and soul when receiving the actual sacrament isn’t possible - is part of Catholic tradition.

https://cruxnow.com/covid-19/2020/03...olic-practice/

So, the Pope personally has said you dont need to gather and has said to stay home.
Interesting, but since the Bishop of Rome is not in communion with my church, not particularly relevant.

The gathering of the community for communal worship, as part of the Eucharist, has always been part of our liturgy.
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  #76  
Old 04-20-2020, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
It's really simple:

People can continue to worship IF they don't gather in groups in such a manner as to spread disease.

Otherwise they are just as free to worship whatever they choose as they were before. Absolutely NOTHING in any Abrahamic religion requires people to gather together in massive, jammed together groups every Sunday.


You want to take away MY freedom to make MY choice. MY choice is to comply with medical instructions because I want to live. I do not want to die of this. I reject your notion that your freedom is worth more than the lives of other people.

What good is "freedom" if it kills me? The constitution, the bill of rights, and society are not and should not be a suicide pact.
I agree with you. As much as I am 100% for religious freedom, churches are NOT being targeted. Churches, movie theaters, community theaters, retail stores - all these places are forced to close, or at least not allow groups of people at once. Nothing is stopping a church from streaming its services or mailing programs to congregation members. I have a dad and a cousin who are lamenting how targeted churches are, and it boggles my mind how they justify that opinion. I sympathize with those are miss church, but they will open back up again when everywhere else is allowed to.
  #77  
Old 04-20-2020, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Interesting, but since the Bishop of Rome is not in communion with my church, not particularly relevant.

The gathering of the community for communal worship, as part of the Eucharist, has always been part of our liturgy.
Which Church then, since the Episcopalian church has similar solutions.
  #78  
Old 04-20-2020, 02:53 PM
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Anglican.

But in any event, you're confusing two different issues, the theological issue, and the pragmatic response to the current situation.

In my comment, I was responding to Broomstick's comment that there is nothing in the Abrahamic religions which requires communal worship. I think that is a very sweeping claim, and not sustainable. I can't speak to Judaism or Islam, but certainly sacramental theology in some strands of Christianity emphasise that communal worship is a key aspect of religion. In particular, the Eucharist is normally considered a communal act of worship.

Now, as a pragmatic approach to the problem, churches can take measures such as that suggested by the Bishop of Rome and other churches, but that is a different issue from the statement Broomstick made, which runs counter to sacramental theology in many strands of Christianity. Regular communal worship is a core element of sacramental theology.
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  #79  
Old 04-20-2020, 02:57 PM
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Anglican.

But in any event, you're confusing two different issues, the theological issue, and the pragmatic response to the current situation.
.
Nope, they also are forward thinking and have similar guidance:


https://www.churchofengland.org/site...oronavirus.pdf

https://www.churchofengland.org/more...dance-churches
  #80  
Old 04-20-2020, 03:03 PM
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Again, since I'm not CofE, that's of interest, certainly, but not binding.

And again, you're responding to the pragmatic issue; temporary allowances, in light of current situations. I'm responding to Broomstick's statement of theology.
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  #81  
Old 04-20-2020, 03:12 PM
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Again, since I'm not CofE, that's of interest, certainly, but not binding.
..


http://www.anglicancommunion.org/
  #82  
Old 04-20-2020, 04:58 PM
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The gathering of the community for communal worship, as part of the Eucharist, has always been part of our liturgy.
Part of it. Not the whole of it.

Nor is it required daily, or even weekly.

Look if your church wants to arrange things so that no one comes within 6 feet of each other that's grand. Or if you all want to quarantine together - camp out together in the church with your Eucharist wine and wafers, but don't leave the church building/grounds. have food and supplies delivered, so you won't risk anyone else's health. Or come up with something else that puts no one outside your group at risk. Have at it.

But your right to worship communally ends when/where your gathering puts not just you but other people at risk.

This notion that religion is being singled out is bullshit. It's not. ALL gatherings/groups of people are being restricted right now. It's not going to be forever. It should be until the pandemic is over.

We've already had religious leaders who insisted on holding group worship die of this disease, along with some of their "flock". It's not a theoretical risk, it's very real. Why on earth would your church insist on risking the health and lives of its congregants?
  #83  
Old 04-20-2020, 05:08 PM
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I also figured that'd be the case since that's all you see in any, "Why do Republicans..." posts (because Republicans are all identical).
Donald Trump is the leader of the Republican Party. He wants to end coronavirus restrictions. It's hardly hyperbole or a broad brush to paraphrase that as a "why do Republicans" want to do so when the leader of the party wants to do so.
  #84  
Old 04-20-2020, 05:47 PM
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How do I take the Eucharist on-line?
1. Go buy yourself a loaf of bread and a bottle of wine.
2. Search online for a congregation of your denomination that holds services online.
3. Prior to the service, break off a small piece of bread, and pour a sip of wine into a small cup.
4. Tune into the online service.
5. When the priest/minister/whathaveyou blesses the bread and the wine, partake.

Not that challenging, really.
  #85  
Old 04-20-2020, 05:48 PM
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Donald Trump is the leader of the Republican Party. He wants to end coronavirus restrictions. It's hardly hyperbole or a broad brush to paraphrase that as a "why do Republicans" want to do so when the leader of the party wants to do so.
Especially given how quickly the vast majority of Republicans fall in line behind him.
  #86  
Old 04-20-2020, 05:56 PM
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1. Go buy yourself a loaf of bread and a bottle of wine.
2. Search online for a congregation of your denomination that holds services online.
3. Prior to the service, break off a small piece of bread, and pour a sip of wine into a small cup.
4. Tune into the online service.
5. When the priest/minister/whathaveyou blesses the bread and the wine, partake.

Not that challenging, really.
That doesn't work for Catholics.
  #87  
Old 04-20-2020, 06:13 PM
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That doesn't work for Catholics.
How so?
  #88  
Old 04-20-2020, 06:15 PM
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1. Go buy yourself a loaf of bread and a bottle of wine.
2. Search online for a congregation of your denomination that holds services online.
3. Prior to the service, break off a small piece of bread, and pour a sip of wine into a small cup.
4. Tune into the online service.
5. When the priest/minister/whathaveyou blesses the bread and the wine, partake.

Not that challenging, really.
Since I have shown him all the major religions allow it to be done at home or on line, why argue?
  #89  
Old 04-20-2020, 06:16 PM
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That doesn't work for Catholics.
Well, the Pope says it works, but who is he, anyway?
  #90  
Old 04-20-2020, 06:21 PM
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That doesn't work for Catholics.
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post
How so?
You've got to have an ordained priest say the words of consecration and do the transubstantiation thing.
  #91  
Old 04-20-2020, 06:41 PM
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You've got to have an ordained priest say the words of consecration and do the transubstantiation thing.
Well, not according to this dude named Francis who wears a snazzy white hat.
  #92  
Old 04-20-2020, 06:56 PM
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That doesn't work for Catholics.
She said she's not a Roman Catholic or Church of England; she's Anglican. Which I take to mean she's in one of the formerly Episcopal churches that broke away because the Episcopalians decided that women and gays could be priests.

ETA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
You've got to have an ordained priest say the words of consecration and do the transubstantiation thing.
Two, four, six, eight, time to transsubstantiate!

Last edited by RTFirefly; 04-20-2020 at 06:58 PM.
  #93  
Old 04-20-2020, 07:07 PM
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She said she's not a Roman Catholic or Church of England; she's Anglican. Which I take to mean she's in one of the formerly Episcopal churches that broke away because the Episcopalians decided that women and gays could be priests.
And the Anglican church the same.
  #94  
Old 04-20-2020, 08:37 PM
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As to why they want that, see TriPolar's post. The top plutocrats feel they are pretty well insulated personally but stand to lose a lot, and the grasroots Useful Fools at the protest marches are buying into a call to be "...anti-anything that they don't want, so they'll risk their own lives and the lives of others just to prove we ain't the boss of them."
Some of the super-rich think they can hide out on a New Zealand island — https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...c-escape-plans

Quote:
‘We Needed to Go’: Rich Americans Activate Pandemic Escape Plans
Interest in New Zealand bunkers has surged.
...
For years, New Zealand has featured prominently in the doomsday survival plans of wealthy Americans worried that, say, a killer germ might paralyze the world.
...
Some Silicon Valley denizens have already made the move to New Zealand as the pandemic has escalated. On March 12, Mihai Dinulescu decided to pull the plug on the cryptocurrency startup he was launching to flee to the remote country. “My fear was it was now or never as I thought they might start closing borders,” said Dinulescu, 34. “I had this very gripping feeling that we needed to go.”

...

Four days later, New Zealand closed its borders to foreign travelers, which could thwart some refugee travel plans. Dinulescu said he has connected with about 10 people in New Zealand who made the jump before the shutdown, but “a lot of venture capital people I know were not afraid enough in time for the border close,” Dinulescu said. “And now they can’t get in.” After the shutdown was announced, however, local press reported a slight increase in private plane landings in the country.
This would be a great time for a "Masque of the Red Death" moment.
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  #95  
Old 04-20-2020, 09:25 PM
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I'll jump in. Here's my quick and dirty, not well-thought out, gut response: they don't trust experts. Or science.

"Statisticians and scientists don't understand business. They just want to take over and tell us what to do. If they're so smart, how come *I'M* the one who's rich? R0? WTF kind of number is that and what does it have to do with my bank account and/or bottom line? THOSE are the numbers I know about and care about!"

I'm sure some smarter people will check in soon.
I think it's a little different. I think they actually do believe the scientists and the experts who say that Trump flubbed the response. What they're doing is creating a distraction and a shift in focus, away from Trump's failed use of federal resources and onto individual state governors and health care officials.

But beyond that, this is a coordinated act of defiance. The protestors themselves are saying that even if they believe the scientists, they're going to defy the experts. They feel confident that, for whatever reason, they will find a way to survive. Their sense is that the headlines will shift away from the pandemic and more to the economic response. Trump will be the one championing the return to business and the libs will be the ones who are trying to keep the country in lockdown mode -- the libs hate business and freedom and all that
  #96  
Old 04-20-2020, 09:45 PM
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The answer is simple.

Trump wants to start having his Nuremberg-esque rallies again.
Well, that, and his regular weekend golf game. That must be torturing him something fierce.
  #97  
Old 04-21-2020, 12:58 AM
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Substitute "supporters of this POTUS" for "Republicans" and read on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovitlac View Post
Oh please. This thread is littered with the likes of, "Republican don't listen to science!"
They don't. (cite)

Quote:
They're all rich assholes who just want the poor to starve anyway!
They do. (cite) (cite)

Quote:
They want to see people die!"
They do. (image)

Quote:
...(because Republicans are all identical).
Supporting this POTUS defines their cult identity. (cite)
__

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
The gathering of the community for communal worship, as part of the Eucharist, has always been part of our liturgy.
What are the spiritual consequences of not taking communion on any particular day?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
ETA:Two, four, six, eight, time to transsubstantiate!
Ninja'd!

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Kabong View Post
Well, that, and his regular weekend golf game. That must be torturing him something fierce.
He can merely proclaim himself champion again and post more reward plaques, as usual. (cite)

Last edited by RioRico; 04-21-2020 at 01:00 AM.
  #98  
Old 04-22-2020, 12:23 PM
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Sounds like a back page advertisement in a 1920s magazine:

“Carrying out the Miracle of Transubstantiation...via RADIO!!!
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  #99  
Old 04-22-2020, 12:44 PM
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Your right to throw a punchassemble/go to church ends at my nose fucking lungs.
Does that make it fucking clear?
Respectfully, nobody asked you. The question is not about if Republican's ideas are wrong. The question is "Why do Republicans want to end the corona virus restrictions?"

I'm getting tired of non-pit threads where somebody asks about why republicans think the way they do, genuine answers are given, and then the answers are attacked. It happens way too much.

Pretty soon you will not have any actual republicans answering questions, just democrats saying how they think what Republicans thing, with everyone agreeing on it, which is a stupidly masturbatory exercise.

Last edited by Ashtura; 04-22-2020 at 12:47 PM.
  #100  
Old 04-22-2020, 12:55 PM
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I may have missed it, but does anyone know what the shutdown is costing the Trump Organization?

Since they seem to be mostly in hotels and golf courses, I can't imagine they are doing well since supposedly they weren't doing all that great even before the pandemic.

One figure I heard, I think maybe on The Majority Report with Sam Seder, was about a million per day (lost revenue and operating expenses, I imagine).

Although, I'm sure Trump would never allow his personal finances to affect his governmental decisions.
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