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  #51  
Old 05-15-2020, 01:38 PM
HMS Irruncible is offline
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Originally Posted by Omar Little View Post
The goal isn't and shouldn't be for the world to stay shut down until the virus is eradicated. If we begin seeing the healthcare system being stressed then you pull back.
I stand by the statement that there's no safe way to go back to an office workplace.

Yes, we can mitigate the risk and reduce the infections.

Yes, we can do things to keep the curve flattened.

But it is absolutely 100% false and irresponsible to say that it's safe to open everything back up and resume life as usual now. The reality is that though it's no longer getting worse (in most places), it's just about as bad as it ever was.

The only reason we're having seriously reopening decisions is that all of us (I think) understand that the economy and workers cannot withstand an indefinite prolonged shutdown. A total shutdown definitely would stop the pandemic, but in reality, different people and systems will reach their respective breaking points as shutdowns remain in effect.

This means that leaders are making decisions on the best way to permit (or coerce) people back to work to limit the economic damage, with differing levels of sensitivity to worker safety. In some cases we have clear guidelines as to mitigate risk, in other cases businesses are asking for exemption to liability from lawsuits. Whatever strategy is being employed, they all recognize that it isn't yet safe for people to share workplaces as they used to.
  #52  
Old 05-15-2020, 02:46 PM
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There are not enough of those masks to go around and the should be reserved for our health care professionals.

If we as a society wait until everyone has a supply of those types of masks, and there is a vaccine and mass testing, we will have waited to long to reopen commerce.
Even if we had an adequate supply of N95 respirators or surgical masks made with qualified ASTM F2100 materials, many people would not wear them properly, e.g. not fitted, the mask covering the mouth but not the nose, excessive facial hair, handling and adjusting the mask frequently, et cetera.

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Originally Posted by SingleMalt View Post
There was a relevant article in The Atlantic last month. It emphasized that cloth masks are not for your own protection, but the protection of others. However, that protection may be better than most people realize.

Money quote:
"Models show that if 80 percent of people wear masks that are 60 percent effective, easily achievable with cloth, we can get to an effective R0 of less than one. Thatís enough to halt the spread of the disease."
Iím not sure how effectiveness of the mask in ranked in terms of reducing transmission butby that chart if everybody wore masks that were 40% effective R0 would be less than 1, which seems unlikely given an unmodified R0 between 3.8 and 8.9.

As an upgrade to my experiment in this post I recently ran a similar experiment with a professionally-made fitted fabric mask with a dual thickness nonwoven spunbond polypropylene filter element (not the nanofiber melt-blown PP used in surgical and N95 masks but a droplet-impermeable fabric used in medical gowns and dental bibs). Iíve been meaning to write this up in more detail but essentially while there was some modest improvement in emission through the filter elements themselves, aerosolized fluorescein dye still escaped the mask and covered the forehead, neck, ears, shirt, and hands. While any face covering will prevent violently exhaled sputum from traveling many feet as a violent cough or sneeze will do, from what I observed it does little to attenuate the exhalation of aerosols even with a filtering element (again, not surgical mask or respirator grade) because the aerosols can escape through or around fabric areas. The potential for a mask saturated with breath containing virions or other pathogens to produce aerosols due to the user exhaling and forcing tiny droplets to be released on the front side of the mask exists, although this is still probably less than the viral load an infected personís breath may contain

There are still good reasons to wear a mask, insofar as it signals the wearerís understanding of the epidemic, it prevents users from putting fingers in their mouth or nose (although eyes are still exposed mucosal tissues that could accept virus), and may instill some discipline in handwashing and other hygiene measures if people are educated. But it should be well understood that wearing a non-respirator mask, or wearing a respirator mask that is not correctly fitted or handled, is not a substitute for physical distancing outside the household and other hygiene measures.

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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
I can't get over how many people here are stubbornly refusing to do very basic things to protect not just themselves but others.
Unfortunately this seems to fall under the behavior response of oppositional defiance, and thus, is not really subject to an appeal of rationality or compassion. It is understandable that people who have lost employment or own businesses that are shuttered are resistant because they are placed into a precarious position, but the people refusing to wear face coverings or follow other easily adopted distancing measures are doing so just because they donít feel like it or because it offends their sensibilities.

This is analogous to the opposition to wearing seatbelts in automobiles once they were standardized; it took a generation of public information campaigns before people were regularly wearing seatbelts despite the obvious potential to reduce a fatal accident to a much less severe outcome and there is virtually no downside to doing so. And wearing a seatbelt is something that directly benefits the wearer; following isolation guidelines is about the benefit to the population as a whole in limiting the spread of the contagion, and it seems like a lot of people look upon such measures from the lens of ďWhat does this do for me?Ē and decide to do whatever they please unless forced or shamed into doing so.

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  #53  
Old 05-15-2020, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ZonexandScout View Post
Disclosure: I wear a mask whenever I go out. Even if the efficacy is only 20-25%, it is well worth the effort.

However, when I go to the store I frequently see people who are NOT wearing masks. (And many of them are crowding around me to reach things on the shelves.) Surprisingly, many of them are young mothers with toddlers. Now, when I see these people without masks, I think it's fair to assume that they are just as slack about personal protection in other areas. Maybe they have children's play groups, or visit places where COVID-19 is more common (nursing homes, etc). This may be an unfair assumption, but I'm inclined to be very cautious around them. If they're obviously not concerned about reducing exposure in the store, why would they be significantly more concerned about protecting themselves in other environments? I keep extra distance between us.
Which supports Riemann's point in a broader way ... the biggest benefit in public contact circumstances is in maintaining 6 feet or more distance to a very great degree.

What you describe is that someone not wearing a mask may be more likely to have others keep farther away from them, which lowers their risk much more than a mask would. And, he posits, wearing a mask may give a false sense of security, resulting in more time spent within others' greater risk six foot circles.

The point is that the benefit of all wearing masks if all else stays the same can be easily swamped by what does not stay the same when masks are worn, if they result in less safe behaviors by the individual or those around the individual.

It is a good point but I am not convinced it is true.

We are socially conforming creatures. A large portion of others wearing masks signals that the norm is to take protection from exposure seriously, that people around you care, that you would be negatively judged for behaviors that signal you do not take it seriously, and encourages others to conform with that attitude and the behaviors consistent with it. A large portion not wearing masks sends the opposite message and has the opposite impact.

My WAG would be the conforming benefits of that social signaling outweigh any potential risk compensation. Beyond risk reduction it sends a message to others that you minimally respect their anxiety and concerns. Not wearing a mask around those who are wearing them is a bit like smoking in an enclosed space with those who you know object to it: minimally it is just being a jerk.

Masks when more than the very briefest contact within 6 feet in public is expected as moderately likely are a low cost intervention. Despite Riemann's well made point, their risk of negative impacts is minimal. There should be no rush to pull back from low cost interventions of likely little negative impact.
  #54  
Old 05-15-2020, 03:08 PM
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As an upgrade to my experiment in this post I recently ran a similar experiment with a professionally-made fitted fabric mask ...
Have you done that experiment with a surgical mask? If so, one variation I'd be really interested in seeing is using first aid tape to seal the edges of the surgical mask to your face to prevent anything from escaping along the edges. When I wear a surgical mask, I can feel the air escaping along my cheeks from the gaps.
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Old 05-15-2020, 03:11 PM
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I think you'd have to look at how well those masks were worn to compare the benefit to America. In those countries, did people do things like have their nose sicking out of the top of the mask, pull down the mask to talk to people in the store, wear masks of tightly stretched t-shirt material, and so on? Did they use a hand to hold a rumpled up cloth to their face as a mask. Did they act like the mask gave them 100% protection so they could ignore social distance guidelines? That's the kind of stuff I see regularly in public. If the citizens in other countries were properly wearing surgical masks and better, we shouldn't directly apply the benefit they saw with masks to Americans wearing masks.
This is the argument that the federal health 'experts' made against wearing masks in public, but there's no reason not to wear a mask - none at all. It's obviously better if people can wear the mask properly, and use the right size, and so forth, but wearing masks is for everyone's benefit. Some people wear them incorrectly; most I have seen wear it the right way. The only danger from encouraging masks is a false sense of security, but that can be addressed with sufficient public awareness.
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Old 05-15-2020, 03:26 PM
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...their risk of negative impacts is minimal....
I think this is a highly dubious assumption.

Anecdotally, one of the main problems I've observed is that it's so much more difficult to conduct a conversation when masked. Without masks, it's pretty easy to talk to somebody from 10 feet away. With masks, that's impossible, so you're either lifting your mask to speak or approaching closer together. A real-world test of transmission risk would not be just with/without a mask at the same distance, it would consider the realistic need to communicate with and without a mask.

As for psychological effects - supermarkets are probably one of the principal hotspots for spread while we're generally in lockdown, and I always watch people's behavior, employees in particular. Numerous times over the past few weeks I've had employees approach close to me at the self checkout "to help", and when I've challenged them and asked them to maintain 6-foot separation, the response has always been "but I'm wearing a mask". Most supermarkets are counting people in and out of the store, and at more than one location they have an employee standing in a doorway that's maybe 4 feet wide. When challenged to stand further back? "But I'm wearing a mask".

Contrary to your assumption, pretty much every time I venture out that I observe people apparently (or even explicitly) engaging in riskier behavior because of masks. I'm not suggesting that we stop wearing masks, but I think we need much stronger guidance and training to try to stop this risk compensation. It's not easy to judge. On the one hand you want to convince people that there's a good reason to wear masks. On the other hand, you want to tell them that the amount of protection they are getting may be so minimal that they should act just as they would without a mask.

Last edited by Riemann; 05-15-2020 at 03:30 PM.
  #57  
Old 05-15-2020, 03:44 PM
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Have you done that experiment with a surgical mask? If so, one variation I'd be really interested in seeing is using first aid tape to seal the edges of the surgical mask to your face to prevent anything from escaping along the edges. When I wear a surgical mask, I can feel the air escaping along my cheeks from the gaps.
But bear in mind that the issue that needs to be factored in here is that the most physically protective mask will almost certainly not be the best mask in practice. An effective mask will be something that people are comfortable wearing for long periods without frequently touching and moving, and through which (where applicable) they can communicate from a suitable distance.
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Old 05-15-2020, 04:07 PM
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My wife just returned from a run to several stores. As usual, she was wearing a mask and gloves. (She also takes a shower as soon as she gets home and washes her clothes.)

She was a bit distressed to find that the cashier at the grocery store was wearing her mask well below her nose and was wiping her nose with her ungloved hand as she moved my wife's purchases through the scanner. My wife pointed this out to her in a reasonably polite way and the cashier basically threw a hissy-fit. The manager had to get involved. All my wife wanted was for the cashier to wear the mask properly, per the store's policy, and stop touching her snotty nose while handling the groceries.

Trust me, my wife is a very courteous person, so I really do believe that it was brought up in a polite manner.
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Old 05-15-2020, 04:29 PM
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But bear in mind that the issue that needs to be factored in here is that the most physically protective mask will almost certainly not be the best mask in practice. An effective mask will be something that people are comfortable wearing for long periods without frequently touching and moving, and through which (where applicable) they can communicate from a suitable distance.
Totally agree. I'm the type who favors efficiency over comfort. I tape my surgical mask to my face so that it seals better and I don't have to worry about it moving around. I also wear my P100 respirator when I go grocery shopping because I can relax when I have that level of protection in that close environment.

People can tweak their mask depending on their situation. When walking along a trail, a simple mask may be fine. But when someone is going to be in a crowded situation for a long time--like in an office, airplane, etc--then the person should be more worried about effectiveness over comfort. Making your mask more comfortable on a trail may not really change your chances very much, but it could make a big difference on a 3-hour flight.
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Old 05-15-2020, 04:34 PM
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Yeah the cashier wiping their nose with a gloved hand would be much better!

FWIW gloves used in public probably DO do more harm than good.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/5183405002

If anything gloves reduce good hand hygiene.

But yeah. We are in world in which people get violent over being asked to wear a mask, getting hissy over being told they are doing it wrong doesnít surprise.
  #61  
Old 05-15-2020, 05:33 PM
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I think this is a highly dubious assumption.

1. Anecdotally, one of the main problems I've observed is that it's so much more difficult to conduct a conversation when masked. Without masks, it's pretty easy to talk to somebody from 10 feet away. With masks, that's impossible, so you're either lifting your mask to speak or approaching closer together. A real-world test of transmission risk would not be just with/without a mask at the same distance, it would consider the realistic need to communicate with and without a mask.

2. As for psychological effects - supermarkets are probably one of the principal hotspots for spread while we're generally in lockdown,

3. Contrary to your assumption, pretty much every time I venture out that I observe people apparently (or even explicitly) engaging in riskier behavior because of masks.
1. That's a better point IMO than the one about 'false sense of security' risky behavior. I've also noticed that, the guy at the Costco tire desk and I had trouble understanding each other especially member number, order number with masks on, and the plexiglass shield they put up. Natural tendency is to get closer, put head to side of shield, and/or pull down the mask and the last, at a good distance, might be least risky.

2. Curious if there's a hard fact source on that. Your 'probably' seems to imply supposition. If so I'm not sure I'd make the same guess. Supermarkets might explain a pretty small % of new infections and be outnumbered by for example people who simply aren't paying much attention to the guidelines generally, not particularly at supermarkets but in their socializing, or the disease spreading in small social networks in case of people who are being careful in 'the wider world' but not as much in the smaller circle of family and close friends. I wouldn't make a strong guess though, not having seen any stats which directly answer this. And it's a big question IMO, whether stores with *most* people following the guidelines more or less are a major or minor proportion of the ongoing new cases, for example where I live (in NJ right next to NY) where the number of new cases per week at first rapidly declined from the early May peak but now seems stuck or only declining more slowly from ~1/4 of that level.

3. I see people congregating, leisure or work (car wash guys now that those are open, construction crews, landscape guys planting trees etc) and many have masks. Hard to say though if they get close *because* they have masks. People work I think because they see no viable alternative, and how eg. do you rapidly towel down a car or plant a big tree without several people getting close? Socializing is closer to purely voluntary, but do these people actually think a mask cancels the need to stand far apart? I am not as sure that's the *reason* they are standing close, or that they'd stand farther apart if the public experts reversed themselves a second time (basically) and said 'don't wear masks'.

I think you have somewhat of a point, but the degree I'm pretty unsure of. It's not clear to me the moral hazard effect of masks is more than the basic benefit (of slowing down or stopping some virus laden particles coming from *me*, if so). Seat belts, airbags, ESC etc on cars have an obvious effect of making people feel less at risk driving so less risk averse, but it's pretty clear they still help, net, despite that.

Last edited by Corry El; 05-15-2020 at 05:37 PM.
  #62  
Old 05-15-2020, 06:18 PM
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My wife just returned from a run to several stores. As usual, she was wearing a mask and gloves. (She also takes a shower as soon as she gets home and washes her clothes.)
From what I've read, the latter is a bit of an overreaction. The aerodynamics around the average speed at which a person moves is such that air molecules (and anything they might carry) tend to get pushed out of the way rather than embedded in clothing. Unless of course you're traveling through somebody's gigantic downpour of a sneeze or vicious cough!

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She was a bit distressed to find that the cashier at the grocery store was wearing her mask well below her nose and was wiping her nose with her ungloved hand as she moved my wife's purchases through the scanner. My wife pointed this out to her in a reasonably polite way and the cashier basically threw a hissy-fit. The manager had to get involved. All my wife wanted was for the cashier to wear the mask properly, per the store's policy, and stop touching her snotty nose while handling the groceries.

Trust me, my wife is a very courteous person, so I really do believe that it was brought up in a polite manner.
It raises the interesting question of what to do if one has a runny nose in allergy season or for some other innocent reason. Masks can be a problem for those people. Not sure what the answer is -- maybe a good dose of antihistamines. I fully sympathize with your wife's position, though -- If I were the manager I would have given the cashier some involuntary time off to think things over. This is serious business. The government-run liquor store I was just in today has a set of rules on a large red poster. In addition to the expected ones, the last two were "be kind to one another -- we're all under stress" and something like (paraphrased) "no joking around, especially not about COVID-19". There was nothing about "cashiers may throw a hissy fit". I'm always especially thankful to the cashiers, who are almost universally cheerful and helpful, and they really do appreciate it.
  #63  
Old 05-15-2020, 06:51 PM
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Have you done that experiment with a surgical mask? If so, one variation I'd be really interested in seeing is using first aid tape to seal the edges of the surgical mask to your face to prevent anything from escaping along the edges. When I wear a surgical mask, I can feel the air escaping along my cheeks from the gaps.
No, because of the issue you mention (and the only surgical masks I have are sterilepakíd in my field kit that I donít want to break out). Surgical masks are really intended to protect medical personnel from direct fluid contact, and to prevent a surgeon or nurse from coughing directly on a patient but despite their current use by hospitals low on respirators they really cannot protect against either receiving or emitting an aerosolized pathogen.

N95 (and other) respirator masks are designed to be fitted to the face and breathed through. Surgical masks are not intended allow breath through the material and some have an impermeable layer, so I would be cautious about using tape to seal the edges (which would have to be done all the way around to actually form an airtight seal), nor does that seem very comfortable, though it is certainly a way to prevent screwing with the mask. As part of an effort I worked on to develop improvised masks we looked at using tape or adhesive to secure a mask frame but the problem is that it becomes very irritating quickly and/or pops off because we are constantly flexing the cheek and mandible area, so a conformal seal is much better for both comfort and reliable sealing.

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Old 05-16-2020, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ZonexandScout View Post
My wife just returned from a run to several stores. As usual, she was wearing a mask and gloves. (She also takes a shower as soon as she gets home and washes her clothes.)

She was a bit distressed to find that the cashier at the grocery store was wearing her mask well below her nose and was wiping her nose with her ungloved hand as she moved my wife's purchases through the scanner. My wife pointed this out to her in a reasonably polite way and the cashier basically threw a hissy-fit. The manager had to get involved. All my wife wanted was for the cashier to wear the mask properly, per the store's policy, and stop touching her snotty nose while handling the groceries.

Trust me, my wife is a very courteous person, so I really do believe that it was brought up in a polite manner.
As someone on the other side of the cash register I applaud your wife bringing this to the manager's attention.

Improper mask use IS a problem among my fellow "essential workers". Most of us are adapting and following the rules but we have a few problems.

The gal who's face turned bright red and started rashing up within minutes of donning one of the store-issued masks we were able to help with home-made cloth masks - I gave her two of mine and she'd acquired more. So sometimes there are legitimate issues.

On the other hand, we have had problems with people with well-protected chins and uncovered mouths and noses. My company and my management are taking this seriously. We did have to fire someone who absolutely refused to wear a mask

As one of the dwindling pool of old-timers (seriously - between medical leaves, illness, quarantines, and quitting we are having MASSIVE turnover) we can't help but notice that those of us still here are those complying with the new health rules. Also, we can't be making our customers sick if we want to stay in business.

We can't expect our customers to comply with the new rules unless we do ourselves.
  #65  
Old 05-16-2020, 03:08 PM
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No, because of the issue you mention (and the only surgical masks I have are sterilepakíd in my field kit that I donít want to break out). Surgical masks are really intended to protect medical personnel from direct fluid contact, and to prevent a surgeon or nurse from coughing directly on a patient but despite their current use by hospitals low on respirators they really cannot protect against either receiving or emitting an aerosolized pathogen.

N95 (and other) respirator masks are designed to be fitted to the face and breathed through. Surgical masks are not intended allow breath through the material and some have an impermeable layer, so I would be cautious about using tape to seal the edges (which would have to be done all the way around to actually form an airtight seal), nor does that seem very comfortable, though it is certainly a way to prevent screwing with the mask. As part of an effort I worked on to develop improvised masks we looked at using tape or adhesive to secure a mask frame but the problem is that it becomes very irritating quickly and/or pops off because we are constantly flexing the cheek and mandible area, so a conformal seal is much better for both comfort and reliable sealing.
A haven't really had any problems breathing through the taped-down mask and I didn't find the tape uncomfortable. It is inconvenient since I can't just take the mask on and off. I put the mask on at home and don't take it off until I get back. That's probably excessive for most people, but I don't mind taking the extra precautions.

These people are creating a strap to hold a surgical mask tightly to the face to create a better seal. They have a simple version you can make with 3 rubber bands: https://www.fixthemask.com/make-it#3-rubber-bands
The middle rubber band makes a loop around your nose, cheeks and chin, while the two rubber bands on the sides go behind your ears to hold the middle loop to your face. It's sort of the same principle as taping the edge down, but more convenient since you can easily take it on and off.

Do you think the efficiency of improvised masks would be improved with the harness of the 3 rubber bands? Some fabrics are so porous it probably won't make a difference, but I would guess that most masks would work better if they could have a better seal.
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Old 05-16-2020, 05:03 PM
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Yes, I believe masks help prevent the spread of Covid-19.

Iím stunned that so many people still are not taking Covid-19 seriously.

I understand the need to open the economy and people getting antsy staying home, but itís not difficult to significantly reduce the risk of infection by wearing a mask, disinfecting hands and keeping social distance. Yet, more than half the people I see (in the news, at the grocery store, and discussing in online local forums) simply are not complying.

I limit my outings to quick trips to the grocery store. I wear a KN-95 mask (available from our local hardware store), disinfect my hands before and after leaving the house and try in vain to stay > 6í from everybody. Easy peazy.

Yet, idiots abound. They view loosening quarantine as carte blanche to go back to business as usual: no masks, no distancing and clumping together as though they are huge gravity wells. It pisses me off every time one of these [maskless] mouth [and nose] breathers go the wrong way down the clearly marked grocery aisles and passes within a foot of me (sometimes even rubbing against me). Iíd feel the same if they were carrying a dirty bomb.

I have 2 at-risk teenage daughters. One is asthmatic and the other has moya-moya disease (a congenital syndrome causing strokes from malformed cerebral arteries). Sheís had 3 strokes and 2 major brain revascularization surgeries. Her first stroke was triggered by the flu when she was 15 months old. It left her with a paralyzed hand and foot (thankfully no cognitive impairment). Needless to say, Iím scared stiff of her catching Covid-19. The thought of me bringing home the infection to her from one of these grocery story idiots keeps me up at night.

Weíve certainly been hit over the head with news of the possible dire consequences of this virus, but it apparently has little effect on the actions of many people. Perhaps it is a problem of people not being able to relate to large numbers and sterile mortality-rate statistics.

Maybe they need to be hit over the head with accounts of the 1918 Pandemic complete with deathbed and mass grave photos, and reminded that history, unfortunately, often does repeat itself. This is a good YouTube video of a Great Courses lecture about the Spanish flu. Parts 2 (Spanish flu/Philadelphia) and 3 are worth watching, too.

The Spanish (Kansas) flu started like a lamb with very mild symptoms. People scoffed at itís first wave (is this even the flu?).

But, then it mutated, as viruses love to do.

The second wave was a killer of unprecedented proportion. It killed more people than all the major wars of the 20th century combined. Estimates of death toll approach 100-million. It was unusual in that it hit people in the prime of their life (20-40yo) the hardest. It was quick and thorough: often entire families would wake up with symptoms and be dead by evening.

It could have been a species extinction event if it cascaded further.

What happened in 1918 could happen in 2020. Donít fuck with viruses, theyíll always win.

And hellís bells, why canít the feds ramp up production of N-95 masks to a level at least somewhat parallel to that of WWII production of war machinery? Covid-19 is a more formidable an enemy than the Nazis.
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Old 05-16-2020, 05:09 PM
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Riemann re the impact of wearing masks and seeing others in masks on behavior: I'll see your anecdotal observations and raise it one! Find me a group of people in a public space in which few to none are currently wearing mask and observe whether or not most of those of the group are staying at least 6 feet socially distanced from each other. Find me a group of people in a public space in which almost all are currently wearing mask and observe whether or not most of those of that group are.

But leaving that discussion and keeping all else the same there is the single biggest impact - individuals vary in how much they spread the germ, and whatever their peak it seems most likely to be in the late presymptomatic phase. A very few appear to be super-spreaders spraying out much more virus than most others do. If that person was masked, even just enough to stop large droplets and to block forceful airflow forward (accepting a poorly fitted mask with leakage mainly up around the nose) the rate of spread would be impacted greatly. How few is that very few? No one knows. The rule of thumb is not so few:
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In what became known as the 20/80 rule, a concept documented by observational and modeling studies and having profound implications for infection control, 20% of the individuals within any given population are thought to contribute at least 80% to the transmission potential of a pathogen,2 and many host–pathogen interactions were found to follow this empirical rule.
Having those super-spreaders all masked would be huge.
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Old 05-16-2020, 05:17 PM
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These people are creating a strap to hold a surgical mask tightly to the face to create a better seal. They have a simple version you can make with 3 rubber bands: https://www.fixthemask.com/make-it#3-rubber-bands

The middle rubber band makes a loop around your nose, cheeks and chin, while the two rubber bands on the sides go behind your ears to hold the middle loop to your face. It's sort of the same principle as taping the edge down, but more convenient since you can easily take it on and off.
Very helpful link! Thanks!
  #69  
Old 05-16-2020, 10:18 PM
filmore is offline
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Originally Posted by needscoffee View Post
Very helpful link! Thanks!
I wanted to note they also have a page with testing data of different kinds of masks and different sealing techniques:

https://medium.com/@fixthemask/lates...a-8a59dbb926a3

A plain surgical mask did very poorly in the tests because it does not seal very well. To get optimized fit for your face type, they recommended using some cushions as necessary to ensure a good seal when using the rubber bands.

There was one test where the mask was taped to the subject's face. They found the rubber bands still worked better:
Quote:
Tape worked fine, but was extremely uncomfortable to remove. Additionally, itís hard to ensure that the tape is applied flat, which is why the fit factor was likely lower than the elastic solution fit factors
  #70  
Old 05-17-2020, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by filmore View Post
These people are creating a strap to hold a surgical mask tightly to the face to create a better seal. They have a simple version you can make with 3 rubber bands: https://www.fixthemask.com/make-it#3-rubber-bands
The middle rubber band makes a loop around your nose, cheeks and chin, while the two rubber bands on the sides go behind your ears to hold the middle loop to your face. It's sort of the same principle as taping the edge down, but more convenient since you can easily take it on and off.
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Originally Posted by needscoffee View Post
Very helpful link! Thanks!
Ditto. Thank you for posting this!
  #71  
Old 05-17-2020, 08:53 PM
SciFiSam is offline
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I honestly don't understand the idea that masks don't affect transmission. Even if I just tie a bandana around my nose and mouth, that means my droplets travel a bit less far. It's not perfect but it makes a difference, and we can't all aim for perfect.

Riemann has a point about people thinking that masks are a total solution, but the couple of times I've been outside in the last couple of months, it wasn't the people in masks who were walking close to me, just the opposite. The ones who came close were completely unmasked. It was only a couple of times but for a couple of hours each time due to queuing and in a chemist and a supermarket (with a chemist, which is why I went there) so there were a lot of people.
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