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  #101  
Old 05-07-2020, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by doreen View Post
Nope, my job shipped my office cases of hand sanitizer last month. It very clearly said "alcohol free" ( which no one noticed until I was opening boxes) - had Benzalkonium chloride instead. Probably works for 99.9% of bacteria- but not viruses.


And reputable brands make non-alcohol sanitizer
Likely because they cant get the alcohol based stuff.


https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...giene-faq.html
CDC does not have a recommended alternative to hand rub products with greater than 60% ethanol or 70% isopropanol as active ingredients. Benzalkonium chloride, along with both ethanol and isopropanol, is deemed eligible by FDA for use in the formulation of healthcare personnel hand rubs.[ 2 ] However, available evidence indicates benzalkonium chloride has less reliable activity against certain bacteria and viruses than either of the alcohols.

https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index...onium_chloride

So, not as good, but not useless.
  #102  
Old 05-10-2020, 07:19 PM
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There should be free healthcare for all Americans after this.
  #103  
Old 05-10-2020, 07:58 PM
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There should be free healthcare for all Americans after this.
You assume enough of US leadership wants a healthier, stronger, richer nation and citizenry, and will work for this goal. This apparently is not the case. A basic health safety net - what a concept! What I'd like to see: social democracy. What I expect: endless blockage. That part of American life will only change with continuing demographic shifts. Any further discussion is necessarily political so I'll skip it here.

I do expect changing behaviors driven by technology. Incautious fucktards won't change much. The rest will wear monitors displaying body temperature to show they aren't feverish and possibly contagious, and they'ill embrace fashion masking. Laws on masking and tracking will evolve. Will tracking-chip implants be voluntary or mandatory?

Masking will show social status. Barefaced incautious fucktards will justifiably be targets of violence - "Stay back six feet or I'll shoot!" - it's self-defence. Expect self-segregation.

The nation still won't be ready for upcoming pandemics. Watch millions die.
  #104  
Old 05-10-2020, 08:02 PM
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Likely because they cant get the alcohol based stuff.
Actually, it must have been somebody being stupid - because 1) the governor had just been all over TV talking about how my agency had started making alcohol-based sanitizer and 2) we had gotten a shipment of the alcohol-based sanitizer made by my agency the week before.
  #105  
Old 05-11-2020, 11:49 AM
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Have you people *been* to America? Nothing will change in the long term unless COVID-19 stays deadly and untreatable. The only changes we will see will be from the recession rather than the underlying pandemic.
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  #106  
Old 05-11-2020, 11:51 AM
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I'm not even convinced much will change if it remains untreatable.
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  #107  
Old 05-11-2020, 02:18 PM
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America doesn't have the resiliency to change to meet problems, but we do have the capacity to collapse because we keep ignoring problems which is what we're doing and what we'll continue to do. If you can take a step back, it's kind of funny that we'll have to pay the piper for ignoring climate change, our health care system, economic inequality, unresolved systemic racism, the national debt and the state of our education system all at once.
  #108  
Old 05-11-2020, 03:43 PM
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Call me coldhearted but I see nothing wrong with 50% of all U.S. restaurants going out of business, as a source somewhere estimated. We had a huge oversupply glut of restaurants to begin with.
  #109  
Old 05-11-2020, 03:56 PM
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Call me coldhearted but I see nothing wrong with 50% of all U.S. restaurants going out of business, as a source somewhere estimated. We had a huge oversupply glut of restaurants to begin with.
Restaurants are one of the largest industries in the United States, employing nearly 16 million people, many of them lacking in post-secondary education necessary to even be considered for many corporate or government jobs. By “50% of all U.S. restaurants going out of business” you are condemning millions of people to permanent unemployment. And although the restaurant business only produces about US$900B in revenues (about 4% of GDP) it has outsized support for agriculture and particularly traditional (e.g. non-corporate) farming of fruits and vegetables as well as non-factory farming. Losing 50% of all restaurants would be a devastating blow to the US economy in a multitude of ways notwithstanding that they are one of the few remaining venues of public life in the US.

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  #110  
Old 05-11-2020, 06:17 PM
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Restaurants are one of the largest industries in the United States, employing nearly 16 million people, many of them lacking in post-secondary education necessary to even be considered for many corporate or government jobs. By “50% of all U.S. restaurants going out of business” you are condemning millions of people to permanent unemployment. And although the restaurant business only produces about US$900B in revenues (about 4% of GDP) it has outsized support for agriculture and particularly traditional (e.g. non-corporate) farming of fruits and vegetables as well as non-factory farming. Losing 50% of all restaurants would be a devastating blow to the US economy in a multitude of ways notwithstanding that they are one of the few remaining venues of public life in the US.

Stranger
True - and thanks for the info. I suppose I was speaking only from a customer standpoint - there is no need for 8,000 restaurants in Chicago when 4,000 would suffice, unless one absolutely had to eat truffle-infused cuttlefish ravioli or some similarly eclectic dish that couldn't be had anywhere else except that one specific restaurant that was closed by Covid.

I wouldn't want the economy damaged, but did seem overdue for pruning of some surplus/excess businesses.
  #111  
Old 05-11-2020, 06:38 PM
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True - and thanks for the info. I suppose I was speaking only from a customer standpoint - there is no need for 8,000 restaurants in Chicago when 4,000 would suffice, unless one absolutely had to eat truffle-infused cuttlefish ravioli or some similarly eclectic dish that couldn't be had anywhere else except that one specific restaurant that was closed by Covid.

I wouldn't want the economy damaged, but did seem overdue for pruning of some surplus/excess businesses.
If they were staying business, they aren't surplus.
  #112  
Old 05-11-2020, 06:43 PM
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IMHO *some* fraction of the sit-down eatery industry will bounce back. Drive-throughs will remain busy. Some closed sit-downs will be bought by the usual gamblers - don't 50% of a statups close within a year? - but we'll likely see the cautious and incautious segregated. Fools will crowd small greasy-spoons and survivors will safely distance in sparse spaces. Will sitdowns install privacy booths? Automats may return, with dispensed foods bathed in IR for sterilization. Expect a boom in food wagons amid scattered picnic tables - my small rural county already hosts several such.

Expect huge demand for plastic-wrapped produce - which, because farmworker shortage, will be quite costly. Only the rich, or home gardeners, will afford a vegan lifestyle. Thus expect more window gardens in apartment blocks. If meat supply chains remain weak because slave processor shortage, pets and pests may disappear from poor neighborhoods. Thus expect window rabbit-hutches.

Social change is trickier. Post-WWI and "Spanish" flu came the Wild Decade of jazz and short skirts; illicit boozing and the US mafiya's rise with unsurprisingly rampant official corruption; inexorable technologies, etc. Were these foreseen in 1918? I predict more public nudity (masked); kits for DIY body-modding and cosmetic surgery; popular 3D-printed sex toys; pervasive online religions to avoid contagious contact; flash riots. Total isolation may be the new bohemianism. Hermit hipsters will dominate podcasts.

American has always relentlessly operated at the edge of failure, sliding down the razor blade of life. Enjoy the ride.
  #113  
Old 05-11-2020, 06:45 PM
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sliding down the razor blade of life.
Tom Lehrer?
  #114  
Old 05-11-2020, 08:53 PM
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If they were staying business, they aren't surplus.
If they were in serious trouble, bleeding red month after month, maybe they really were.
  #115  
Old 05-11-2020, 09:49 PM
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Call me coldhearted but I see nothing wrong with 50% of all U.S. restaurants going out of business, as a source somewhere estimated. We had a huge oversupply glut of restaurants to begin with.
If there had been a glut of them, then they would have gone out of business without a pandemic.
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  #116  
Old 05-11-2020, 10:37 PM
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Tom Lehrer?
Ah yes, Bright College Days! I was hooked early, about age 12, when a degenerate pal gave me the 45 RPM single of Masochism Tango B/W Poisoning Pigeons In The Park. Then I found the 33 RPM album An Evening Wasted at a church thrift shop and that was that. Yes, we will all go together when we go.

Back to changes. Mainstream social media will censor what AIs identify as disinfo, driving the sub-literate to the Dark Web's toxic propaganda and CTs - the defiant will be seen as dupes. Concealed-carry firearms rates will spike. "They stepped too close" will justify violent self-defense. Many will carry canes or batons, often electrified. Sales (and 3D-printer models) of pocket tasers will boom. A dress code will evolve - if we visibly display (A) then folks can approach; if (X) shows then stand back or suffer.

Autonomous vehicles aka robocars will proliferate for personal travel and commercial sex work. Onboard sensors will monitor vital signs of potential riders and reject the feverish. Fleets of illicit taxis with blocked fever sensors will transport the infected. A social class structure will evolve - is you hot or is you not? Ice-cube hats will be popular.
  #117  
Old 05-12-2020, 12:45 AM
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A ton of people will wear masks in public even if there's no known current outbreak of contagious disease. Even after a Corona virus vaccine is developed for a year or two we might see 50% or more of people wearing masks on the streets and in public transportation, planes, elevators, etc.. I'd add sports and movies too but not sure if those will survive. Even after that I wouldn't be surprised to see 10% or more of the population continue to wear masks, largely people at risk but also the cautious. Look at a playground and you'll likely see kids wearing masks while their helicopter mask wearing parents and nannies have them on as well.
This, I think states that have anti mask laws will have to repeal them
  #118  
Old 05-12-2020, 06:45 AM
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True - and thanks for the info. I suppose I was speaking only from a customer standpoint - there is no need for 8,000 restaurants in Chicago when 4,000 would suffice, unless one absolutely had to eat truffle-infused cuttlefish ravioli or some similarly eclectic dish that couldn't be had anywhere else except that one specific restaurant that was closed by Covid.
See, I seek out the eclectic menu. Let Covid take Denny's and see how you like it.
  #119  
Old 05-12-2020, 11:27 AM
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IMHO *some* fraction of the sit-down eatery industry will bounce back. Drive-throughs will remain busy. Some closed sit-downs will be bought by the usual gamblers - don't 50% of a statups close within a year?
People have been predicting the rise of delivery-only restaurants for a while, and I can see that actually happening now a lot more.

Existing restaurants that survive probably will mostly keep their existing locations. But someone starting a new restaurant 6 months from now is going to think really hard about setting up a kitchen in cheap out-of-the way real estate with no on-site dining and being delivery/pickup only.

If you're not fine dining, renting a bunch of seating space that will be sparsely filled for a while and risks being shut down (or just abandoned by customers) whenever there's a flareup is really risky.
  #120  
Old 05-12-2020, 12:33 PM
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Agreed. I think people are way, way overestimating the effect this will have on society in general. (For comparison purposes, we've heard a lot about the Spanish flu of late, but there are two pandemics within living memory that killed 1,000,000+ people worldwide, in 1957-58 and 1968-69. And ... nobody remembers them. I asked my parents, who are old enough to remember, and they had no idea these events even occurred. There was, I have heard, a rather well-attended music festival in 1969, a matter of months after 100,000 people in the US died of flu.)
What about the epidemic that started around 1981 and is still going on? Loads more than a million deaths due to that (HIV). The difference there being that it moves slowly, is not as transmissible as the flu, and at least initially largely affected "those people" (i.e. you could be dismissive because it was mostly gays and IV drug users). I'm pretty sure most people remember this one. And I think there have been lasting lifestyle changes due to it.

I had not realized how many people died of the Hong Kong flu (1968-69). I remember it - but then I'm 60. I actually had it - and our school actually closed for a few days due to the high number of cases.

I think COVID's changes on society will be far-reaching in a number of ways.
- More willingness to allow telework for some workers since they've proven to be productive
- LESS willingness to allow it in some cases, since the workers are NOT productive
- People are used to going out, shopping, travelling etc. without the need for much thought; casual outings are going to be a LOT rarer for a while.
- People are realizing they don't NEED to go to crowded events (concerts, sporting events)
- Shopping malls are already trending away from the huge enclosed malls; there are several major outlet malls within an hour's drive of here, which do not have an indoor component at all (aside from the stores themselves).

Do I think those changes will be super-long-lasting? I doubt it. I honestly think a year from now, either there'll be a vaccine, there'll be enough people with immunity that the disease is more a background thing, or people will simply say "fuckit" and go on with their lives. We've been inundated with ALL COVID ALL THE TIME news for 3 months now, and "news fatigue" is a very real thing.

There will be fewer restaurants. Delivery food is usually not as good as in-restaurant food; it's gotten cold, there are texture changes etc.

Mask-wearing will never become "the norm" - hell, even right now people are freaking out about being required to wear a mask just to go shopping. Pity - as at least during a crisis, I see a lot of benefit in the social-shaming aspect "what do you mean, you aren't wearing a mask??? Are you a MONSTER???" - peer pressure could go a long way in increasing mask usage / reducing transmission. In a future outbreak (of covid or flu or whatever), it would have to be a crisis situation for masks to become commonplace even in the short term.

Last edited by Mama Zappa; 05-12-2020 at 12:36 PM.
  #121  
Old 05-12-2020, 12:41 PM
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There should be free healthcare for all Americans after this.
Well, even in Canada (and other countries with a sane health system) it ain't "free", as i know health care is a huge portion of the provincial budget (one site said "on average, 38%"; another said "11% of Canada's GDP")....

By contrast, healthcare in the US uses about 17% of our GDP.

Which of course supports the oft-cited argument "spend more, get less" about US healthcare.

I doubt things will change due to COVID, sadly.
  #122  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:03 PM
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Sure, but the post I responded to posited a reduction in the number of hunters. I just don't see that happening. I'm sure that if I lost my job I couldn't just buy a rifle and go bag myself a deer, but I know people who hunt. I'd ask them to teach me!
Yeah. I don't see the pandemic having a significant impact on the deer season in Arkansas this year let alone a few years down the road. Unless all those people I see at Kroger without masks die off.

Quote:
I did a quick search and found this article, which mentions that hunting and fishing permits increased during the Great Recession.
Depending on your location, hunting and fishing are relatively inexpensive activities so I could see why they might increase in times of economic distress. Fishing is fun even when you're not actually catching any fish. It's something to do at anyway.
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  #123  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:07 PM
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People have been predicting the rise of delivery-only restaurants for a while, and I can see that actually happening now a lot more.

Existing restaurants that survive probably will mostly keep their existing locations. But someone starting a new restaurant 6 months from now is going to think really hard about setting up a kitchen in cheap out-of-the way real estate with no on-site dining and being delivery/pickup only.

If you're not fine dining, renting a bunch of seating space that will be sparsely filled for a while and risks being shut down (or just abandoned by customers) whenever there's a flareup is really risky.
That is logical, but people who open independent restaurants are NOT logical. The great majority of them have far more optimism than they do a well thought out business plan. Restauranteurs are a self-selecting group of people who are disproportionately unrealistic about their chances to the point of self-delusion. That's why the great majority fail, and many of the ones that don't fail don't make much money anyway and are a thankless grind.

If there is going to be a reduction in new starts, it'll be big chain restaurants, who will run the cold equations and decide a location that would once have turned a 6 percent profit will now run at a 3 percent loss. Of course, that will actually give the independents a tiny boost, as they'll have a little less competition from big corporations that could previously muscle them out.
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  #124  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:35 PM
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Agreed. I think people are way, way overestimating the effect this will have on society in general. (For comparison purposes, we've heard a lot about the Spanish flu of late, but there are two pandemics within living memory that killed 1,000,000+ people worldwide, in 1957-58 and 1968-69. And ... nobody remembers them. I asked my parents, who are old enough to remember, and they had no idea these events even occurred. There was, I have heard, a rather well-attended music festival in 1969, a matter of months after 100,000 people in the US died of flu.)
I remember the 1968-69 school year quite well, but I don't remember me or my family or my school having to make any adjustments to our daily lives at the time on account of the Hong Kong flu. I remember its being in the news, but that's it. I remember participating in campaign events with lots of people in the fall of 1968 (I was a member of our local Youth For Nixon chapter, believe it or not! ), and being in crowds at high school football and basketball games that year, and of course school itself on a daily basis. IOW, all the stuff we're not doing now.

I don't think I was more than barely aware of the 2009-10 H1N1 pandemic that Stranger mentions. There are years in one's adult life where one year fades into the next after a while, but there are exceptions, and 2009 is one of those years in my life: it's the year we adopted the Firebug, so I can remember a metric ton of details about that specific year. But I only remember H1N1 as a name; even with a new child to protect, I don't remember changing anything in response to it.

So AFAICT, every one of the zero changes our society had to make on account of H1N1 and the Hong Kong flu is still with us.
  #125  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:47 PM
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Mask-wearing will never become "the norm" - hell, even right now people are freaking out about being required to wear a mask just to go shopping. Pity - as at least during a crisis, I see a lot of benefit in the social-shaming aspect "what do you mean, you aren't wearing a mask??? Are you a MONSTER???" - peer pressure could go a long way in increasing mask usage / reducing transmission. In a future outbreak (of covid or flu or whatever), it would have to be a crisis situation for masks to become commonplace even in the short term.
Is anyone suggesting that we wear masks after the pandemic has passed? I don't imagine there is any need to wear masks in normal times.
  #126  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:55 PM
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I see a big boost in non-enclosed sit-down dining. There's a BBQ place in my town that only opens on weekends in a parking lot. Throw a few picnic tables around the lot with distancing and they will do just fine. Minimal overhead, minimal labor costs, minimal contact, maximal service and food. No reason that can't be adapted to other cuisines.
  #127  
Old 05-12-2020, 02:13 PM
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That is logical, but people who open independent restaurants are NOT logical. The great majority of them have far more optimism than they do a well thought out business plan. Restauranteurs are a self-selecting group of people who are disproportionately unrealistic about their chances to the point of self-delusion. That's why the great majority fail, and many of the ones that don't fail don't make much money anyway and are a thankless grind.
This is true; I've watched dozens of episodes of Hell's Kitchen and Restaurant Impossible, in which a restaurant professional tries to save a failing restaurant. At the beginning, the host asks the hapless owner what their background is and why they opened a restaurant, and fairly often, they have no professional training and just opened the restaurant because it seemed a good idea. And the impression I get is that owning and running a restaurant is an unbelievable amount of work.
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Old 05-12-2020, 02:41 PM
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The coffee shop two doors down from me opened 2 years ago, got sold in October 2019, and reopened in January. The new owners let go of all the staff from the former shop to run it with just the owners and one parttime dishwasher. After they closed in March, they spent the time reconfiguring into a small grocer, with just 3 seating areas. They reopened today. They had to use a lot of imagination and be pretty nimble to keep things together. I'll be interested to see how they do.
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Old 05-12-2020, 02:50 PM
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This is true; I've watched dozens of episodes of Hell's Kitchen and Restaurant Impossible, in which a restaurant professional tries to save a failing restaurant. At the beginning, the host asks the hapless owner what their background is and why they opened a restaurant, and fairly often, they have no professional training and just opened the restaurant because it seemed a good idea. And the impression I get is that owning and running a restaurant is an unbelievable amount of work.
It is. I briefly ran a burger and breakfast joint with a friend. It was near the coast in a area with a lot of industry. The workers all came for breakfast and lunch, sometimes for a beer after work. We opened at 6AM, closed at 6PM, M-F. Short orders.

She was friends of the owners, who had run the place for decades. Health problems occured and they couldnt do it anymore but they had a year left on the lease. So we took it over for them, she did the waitressing -wore a low cut blouse to get tips (she was proud of her bust and liked showing it off). I did the cooking . There was a busboy, a dishwasher guy and cleaners.

Eggs, bacon, burger patties, ham and chorizo for breakfast. 6-10. 10-11 break. Surprising how many wanted beer for breakfast. Coffee. Bottled sodas in a cooler.


Burgers for lunch. Lots of beer. That cheeseburger, cheeseburger, no fries chips sketch really hits home. 11-1. 1-2 break.

At 3 or 4 the workers got off, dropped by for a beer, sometimes a burger.

Hard, hot work. But since the rent was peanuts, and they already had quite a bit of food bought, the profits were decent.

The building owners wanted a five X rent increase for the next 5 years so the old couple sold it. I was glad. She made quite a bit of money in tips.
  #130  
Old 05-12-2020, 03:47 PM
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I'm enjoying watching United and Delta Airlines videos on YouTube showing how thoroughly they are now disinfectant-fogging, wiping, cleaning, HEPA-filtering everything now. About time considering that even before the pandemic, airplane cabins were typically already germ-ridden and dirty. Hope this remains as a permanent trend.
  #131  
Old 05-12-2020, 04:13 PM
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Temporary changes that will be reversed:
  • Anything that cuts into corporate bottom lines
  • Anything that impedes employers from monitoring their employees in person if possible
  • Packing people into the smallest possible space to save money (offices, airline seats, etc)

Permanent changes:
  • Rampant digital surveillance
  • Anywhere that telepresence saves business expenses by reducing the quality of consumer experience
  #132  
Old 05-12-2020, 04:20 PM
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We had a huge oversupply glut of restaurants to begin with.
By what measure do you reckon there was a glut of restaurants? They're difficult to run and prone to failure. An open restaurant is a market demand signal.

Of course you do have a lot of failed restaurants and money-laundering operations, but the former is unlikely to stick around and the latter is fairly immune to market pressure.
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Old 05-12-2020, 04:33 PM
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I'm enjoying watching United and Delta Airlines videos on YouTube showing how thoroughly they are now disinfectant-fogging, wiping, cleaning, HEPA-filtering everything now. About time considering that even before the pandemic, airplane cabins were typically already germ-ridden and dirty. Hope this remains as a permanent trend.
Wouldn't hold my breath for that one. This is only happening because bookings are down 95%. They'll scrap this as soon as bookings are back to normal and nobody is paying attention.
  #134  
Old 05-12-2020, 07:10 PM
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I think it is probably premature to accurately gauge what if any permanent changes Covid-19 makes to American life. It really depends how this plays out.

The big question to me is whether this becomes an annual thing where we have new strains of Corona re-appearing ala the Flu in the winter severe enough to necessitate shutdowns. If we ended up having regular shutdowns over the next few years the economic impact will be horrific.
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Old 05-12-2020, 07:35 PM
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The big question to me is whether this becomes an annual thing where we have new strains of Corona re-appearing ala the Flu in the winter severe enough to necessitate shutdowns. If we ended up having regular shutdowns over the next few years the economic impact will be horrific.
I wouldn’t worry about that. No matter how many people are dying, there isn’t a populace in the world that would accept regular, repeated shutdowns, nor a government that would survive trying.
  #136  
Old 05-12-2020, 07:58 PM
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"All you can eat" restaurants where the customer carries a plate to the food tables and loads up using shared serving utensils seem to be a real problem for virus transmission, and I predict that either there will be a large change in how they are run, or they will become extinct. I think extinction is the most likely outcome.
  #137  
Old 05-12-2020, 08:17 PM
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"All you can eat" restaurants where the customer carries a plate to the food tables and loads up using shared serving utensils seem to be a real problem for virus transmission, and I predict that either there will be a large change in how they are run, or they will become extinct. I think extinction is the most likely outcome.
I had a seafood buffet on Ash Wednesday and that’ll probably be the last buffet I’ll ever see. I can see maybe a cafeteria style service but that can get labor intensive and will cost more.
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  #138  
Old 05-12-2020, 10:44 PM
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This is true; I've watched dozens of episodes of Hell's Kitchen and Restaurant Impossible, in which a restaurant professional tries to save a failing restaurant. At the beginning, the host asks the hapless owner what their background is and why they opened a restaurant, and fairly often, they have no professional training and just opened the restaurant because it seemed a good idea. And the impression I get is that owning and running a restaurant is an unbelievable amount of work.
I've read a few stories about people who opened restaurants in Toronto - I posted a thread about one a few years ago. Absolutely without exception:

1. The entrepreneur loved food and enjoyed cooking food but had no business experience,

2. They never bothered to hire a experienced restaurant manager BEFORE getting into business,

3. Their estimates of setup costs were comically ignorant, and

4. They had no cash reserves in case there were any unexpected expenses, and ended up putting their families at risk of losing their homes.

It was truly mesmerizing.

One of the reasons chain restaurants push independents out of business is that they aren't started by morons. If Boston Pizza or Kelsey's opens a new restaurant they know exactly, to the dollar, what it will cost to do so, how much revenue the restaurant must make to be worth it, and whether or not the surrounding area will support that much revenue. They can open the restaurant in 4 months because they know precisely what to buy, what permits to get, how to build it and what order to do those things in. If those things add up to profit, they open. If they don't, they don't. But hope springs eternal in the breast of the guy who just thinks he cooks a great chicken marsala, so he mortgages his house and runs headlong into it not knowing what the hell he's doing.
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  #139  
Old 05-12-2020, 11:52 PM
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I think it is probably premature to accurately gauge what if any permanent changes Covid-19 makes to American life. It really depends how this plays out.

The big question to me is whether this becomes an annual thing where we have new strains of Corona re-appearing ala the Flu in the winter severe enough to necessitate shutdowns. If we ended up having regular shutdowns over the next few years the economic impact will be horrific.
This pandemic will hopefully sound the death knell for the anti-vaxxer movement.
  #140  
Old 05-13-2020, 04:00 AM
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This pandemic will hopefully sound the death knell for the anti-vaxxer movement.

Hah! It is to laugh! You drastically underestimate the human ability to be flim-flammed. Also, AFAIK, that lunatic McCarthy is still around to spread her nonsense.
  #141  
Old 05-13-2020, 07:22 AM
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Friends of mine opened a brewery two years ago. The first six months they concentrated on brewing, and customers were free to bring their own food, or have pizza delivered from nearby places.

Then they decided to invest in a kitchen and sell their own pizza, wings, sandwiches, etc. Looks like that decision will end up saving their business. Once the state shutdown bars, they ramped up their kitchen. Now they are selling curbside food and six packs on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. They are so busy, you have to place your order 24 hours ahead of time. Last Saturday we got a lasagna dinner for four, salads, garlic bread for $48 and a six pack of beer for $18.

ETA: for the two of us, the dinner for four fed us two dinners and three lunches. The six pack lasted me four days, thanks to me drinking vodka chasers.

Last edited by kayaker; 05-13-2020 at 07:24 AM.
  #142  
Old 05-13-2020, 09:16 AM
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My wife and I were discussing this subject this morning, and came up with another possibility. We were wondering if the increase in working from home might be interpreted (companies) as evidence they really don't need all that middle management? I've long contended we have far more management than needed in many fields, and it seems this might act as a real time demonstration of that. Just spitballing though.
  #143  
Old 05-13-2020, 12:52 PM
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Is anyone suggesting that we wear masks after the pandemic has passed? I don't imagine there is any need to wear masks in normal times.
It would be a tremendous boon to public health if we'd all wear masks when we had any symptoms of a possible illness. This is the norm in some countries (Japan, Korea, China), and we'd all get sick a lot less if everyone would do it.

I find it unlikely that that will happen. Hell, it's hard to get people to wear face masks during this pandemic because it's become the newest front in the culture war.
  #144  
Old 05-13-2020, 01:09 PM
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Friends of mine opened a brewery two years ago. The first six months they concentrated on brewing, and customers were free to bring their own food, or have pizza delivered from nearby places.

Then they decided to invest in a kitchen and sell their own pizza, wings, sandwiches, etc. Looks like that decision will end up saving their business. Once the state shutdown bars, they ramped up their kitchen. Now they are selling curbside food and six packs on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. They are so busy, you have to place your order 24 hours ahead of time. Last Saturday we got a lasagna dinner for four, salads, garlic bread for $48 and a six pack of beer for $18.

ETA: for the two of us, the dinner for four fed us two dinners and three lunches. The six pack lasted me four days, thanks to me drinking vodka chasers.
I'm glad to hear they are doing well, the brewing industry became over-saturated in my part of the world and a lot of them are struggling from too much supply. The change to restaurants has been interesting, I keep hearing about 5 star restaurants selling takeout, something that would have been unheard of a few years ago. I wonder how many of these changes will become permanent?
  #145  
Old 05-13-2020, 01:15 PM
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This pandemic will hopefully sound the death knell for the anti-vaxxer movement.
It is to laugh.
  #146  
Old 05-13-2020, 01:25 PM
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This is true; I've watched dozens of episodes of Hell's Kitchen and Restaurant Impossible, in which a restaurant professional tries to save a failing restaurant. At the beginning, the host asks the hapless owner what their background is and why they opened a restaurant, and fairly often, they have no professional training and just opened the restaurant because it seemed a good idea. And the impression I get is that owning and running a restaurant is an unbelievable amount of work.
Several years ago, a new restaurant opened near me. A small place, with maybe 8 tables - although based on the menu and location it would probably get a lot of takeout business. The menu was mostly sandwiches and other light fare.

I took one look at the menu and thought “Too bad, they’ll be out of business in 6 months. To be clear, most everything on the menu sounded delicious and well-thought out from the perspective of “How will this taste?”.
But almost every sandwich featured a different type of cheese - cheddar, Swiss, American, provolone, Gouda, Muenster and pepper jack were all included. They offered pulled beef AND pulled pork AND pulled chicken sandwiches on the everyday menu. They had beef burgers and turkey burgers and bison burgers and veggie burgers. There were dozens of menu offerings that had one or more unique ingredients.

The menu was designed with no thought at all to the economics of stocking the kitchen. They didn’t last long.

In contrast, someone in the same neighborhood opened a small Japanese takeout place. She started very simply with things that could be made with a limited amount of ingredients, mostly variations on California roll and tuna /eel based sushi, and she expanded the menu every few weeks as the business grew. Truth is, she didn’t last that line either, but she lasted longer than the guy with the sandwich shop.

Having done a few online meetings, I can think of a lot of situations where they would work way better than a physical meeting. We used to have these really large coordination meetings on some of the construction projects I worked on. There were usually over 20 - 25 participants and everyone had to come at sit through the whole thing. It was always surprising how much coordination was needed between far flung trades and it was important not to leave any questions hanging.

They were a pain in the ass logistically though. It was difficult to schedule all the parties.

Every time the speaker or subject changed, the whole room had to play musical chairs.

It was difficult for everyone to view a drawing or blueprint at the same time.

A lot of participants were inactive for large portions of the meetings, I would do other work during large sections of the meeting, then someone would ask -“Hey, Ann - what’s the dimension on the back box for xx device” and I’d answer then they’d proceed to resolve the other issues dependent on the size of that device, which were usually of no concern to me.

Zoom and the other apps I’ve been using would be perfect for this type of meeting. No one would have to travel and everyone could be on time. Everyone could see and hear each other equally. Everyone could see the materials being presented. People could sort of background the portions of the meetings that were irrelevant to them and do other things until they were needed or or until someone had a question for them.

Although I’m no longer working, I fully expect that after doing these meetings remotely a few times, no one would ever do them in person again.
  #147  
Old 05-13-2020, 01:30 PM
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[QUOTE=pullin;22300211 the increase in working from home might be interpreted (companies) as evidence they really don't need all that middle management? [/QUOTE]
Working from home is going fine right now for a lot of people.But the emphasis is on "right now".
I wonder how long they can keep it going.

Many people who previously went to the office every day, but are now working at home for the first time, are doing pretty well.....for now. But most of them are just taking home their regular routine work. They are not doing the more complex things..like starting new projects, finding new clients, hiring new staff who need training.
I suspect that if these same people stay away from their office for,say, 6 months straight , their company will have very very serious problems. When changes happen and the old routine has to be changed, people need to meet with their co-workers and their boss. And that usually works best when they all know each other, after years of daily contact.
  #148  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:34 PM
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Even the NFL pulls in a hell of a lot of money from ticket sales - about $1 billion a year for the NFL - but even that number understates the case. There's more benefit to the spectator than just what they paid for tickets. Presence at a game tends to make a fan even more loyal. They buy more merchandise, and sports team merchandise is literally your customers paying you to advertise for you. Crowds also make the TV experience far more enjoyable.

Furthermore, sports stadiums are enormous investments, costing truly insane amounts of money. The idea that the team and the government owners of the stadium want it empty, is madness. They want that place filled to the brim, and they will sell the tickets as soon as the balance between public health and quarantine fatique allow it.
AIUI NFL owners vote each year whether or not to use the blackout rules that year. I had to look this up, but how it's worked since the 1970s is that there can't be TV coverage of a game within a certain radius of the arena if fewer than 85% of tickets for that game have been sold. I remember times when a local business or two stepped up and bought blocks of tickets so that the Bears could be televised locally.

At any rate, if team owners really want their arenas filled and people are concerned about virus transmission at games, the owners might try instigating blackouts again. Personally, I think it would be as effective (and more public relations savvy) to discontinue the blackout rues and lower the ticket price substantially to encourage people to attend games, but I suspect NFL owners wouldn't agree.
  #149  
Old 05-13-2020, 04:48 PM
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This pandemic will hopefully sound the death knell for the anti-vaxxer movement.
Riiight. Google "Plandemic."
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  #150  
Old 05-13-2020, 07:09 PM
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Back to changes. Mainstream social media will censor what AIs identify as disinfo, driving the sub-literate to the Dark Web's toxic propaganda and CTs - the defiant will be seen as dupes. Concealed-carry firearms rates will spike. "They stepped too close" will justify violent self-defense. Many will carry canes or batons, often electrified. Sales (and 3D-printer models) of pocket tasers will boom. A dress code will evolve - if we visibly display (A) then folks can approach; if (X) shows then stand back or suffer.

Autonomous vehicles aka robocars will proliferate for personal travel and commercial sex work. Onboard sensors will monitor vital signs of potential riders and reject the feverish. Fleets of illicit taxis with blocked fever sensors will transport the infected. A social class structure will evolve - is you hot or is you not? Ice-cube hats will be popular.


Goddamnit, dude, I want to read your cyberpunk novel!
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