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Old 05-13-2020, 10:49 AM
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Should Homeschooling be banned?


THIS Harvard professor says yes.

The article says"
A Harvard University law professor has sparked controversy after calling for a ban on homeschooling.

Elizabeth Bartholet told Harvard Magazine that it gives parents “authoritarian” control over their kids — and can even expose them to white supremacy and misogyny.

“The issue is, do we think that parents should have 24/7, essentially authoritarian control over their children from ages zero to 18? I think that’s dangerous,” Bartholet said. “I think it’s always dangerous to put powerful people in charge of the powerless, and to give the powerful ones total authority.”

Interestingly a woman who herself was homeschooled and never stepped foot into a public school until she went to Harvard, wrote a reply.

Harvard is hoping to host a conference in June which will focus on getting homeschooling banned.

Here is another article refuting the article from an education journalist at Forbes.

So what do you all think? I've worked with alot of homeschooled kids and while I've seen some negatives, most of the times the kids are actually educationally ahead of their public school peers and have just as much peer interaction.

Quite frankly the Harvard proff, her big problem is she wants the state to be in absolute control and destroy parents rights to educate their children.

Granted this is just one professor but its sad shes at such a high regarded university.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:16 AM
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Granted this is just one professor but its sad shes at such a high regarded university.
There is something sad here, and maybe a little ironic too.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:17 AM
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No, that isn't the focus of the conference. I suppose that's a possible outcome after they have their discussions. Btt the focus is to discuss the problems with home schooling and come up for strategies to fix them. That sounds like a good idea.

Quote:
We will convene leaders in education and child welfare policy, legislators and legislative staff, academics and policy advocates, to discuss child rights in connection with homeschooling in the United States. The focus will be on problems of educational deprivation and child maltreatment that too often occur under the guise of homeschooling, in a legal environment of minimal or no oversight. Experts will lead conversations about the available empirical evidence, the current regulatory environment, proposals for legal reform, and strategies for effecting such reform.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:22 AM
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Quite frankly the Harvard proff, her big problem is she wants the state to be in absolute control and destroy parents rights to educate their children.
Excluded-middle fallacy, and a rather pearl-clutching flapdoodly one, too.

Even if parents were legally required to provide some non-homeschooling form of education for their children (as they are in, e.g., Germany and the Netherlands), that's not automatically equivalent to requiring "the state to be in absolute control and destroy parents rights to educate their children". Parents have plenty of control over and educational input into their children's lives even when the children also receive some other form(s) of schooling.

Here's a less hysterical-vapors description of the article in question:
Quote:
[...] Elizabeth Bartholet, Wasserstein public interest professor of law and faculty director of the Law School’s Child Advocacy Program, sees risks for children—and society—in homeschooling, and recommends a presumptive ban on the practice. Homeschooling, she says, not only violates children’s right to a “meaningful education” and their right to be protected from potential child abuse, but may keep them from contributing positively to a democratic society.

“We have an essentially unregulated regime in the area of homeschooling,” Bartholet asserts. All 50 states have laws that make education compulsory, and state constitutions ensure a right to education, “but if you look at the legal regime governing homeschooling, there are very few requirements that parents do anything.” Even apparent requirements such as submitting curricula, or providing evidence that teaching and learning are taking place, she says, aren’t necessarily enforced. Only about a dozen states have rules about the level of education needed by parents who homeschool, she adds. [...]

[Bartholet] argues that one benefit of sending children to school at age four or five is that teachers are “mandated reporters,” required to alert authorities to evidence of child abuse or neglect. “Teachers and other school personnel constitute the largest percentage of people who report to Child Protective Services,” she explains, whereas not one of the 50 states requires that homeschooling parents be checked for prior reports of child abuse. Even those convicted of child abuse, she adds, could “still just decide, ‘I’m going to take my kids out of school and keep them at home.’” [...]

[...] surveys of homeschoolers show that a majority of such families (by some estimates, up to 90 percent) are driven by conservative Christian beliefs, and seek to remove their children from mainstream culture. [...]

[Bartholet] views the absence of regulations ensuring that homeschooled children receive a meaningful education equivalent to that required in public schools as a threat to U.S. democracy. “From the beginning of compulsory education in this country, we have thought of the government as having some right to educate children so that they become active, productive participants in the larger society,” she says. This involves in part giving children the knowledge to eventually get jobs and support themselves. “But it’s also important that children grow up exposed to community values, social values, democratic values, ideas about nondiscrimination and tolerance of other people’s viewpoints,” she says, noting that European countries such as Germany ban homeschooling entirely and that countries such as France require home visits and annual tests. [...]

Bartholet maintains that parents should have “very significant rights to raise their children with the beliefs and religious convictions that the parents hold.” [Directly contradicting the OP's paranoid exaggeration about wanting "the state to be in absolute control", you'll note.] But requiring children to attend schools outside the home for six or seven hours a day, she argues, does not unduly limit parents’ influence on a child’s views and ideas. “The issue is, do we think that parents should have 24/7, essentially authoritarian control over their children from ages zero to 18? I think that’s dangerous,” Bartholet says.

Last edited by Kimstu; 05-13-2020 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:26 AM
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I think it should be banned. Most parents aren't equipped to teach all of the academics. Plus the kids need to socialize with other kids and get exposed to ideas other than what their parents. Personally, I've always thought the motivation for a lot of home schooling parents is to keep their kids away from those that aren't just like them, and I don't think that's healthy.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:36 AM
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From an optics perspective, a Harvard professor is probably at the farthest end of the spectrum of someone who would find sympathy from homeschooling advocates.

And the overwrought commentary about "state control"? ISTM that they are not easily dismissed. When compared to the current anything-goes environment, any additional oversight would be by-definition an increase in "state control".

However, the value of a conference to highlight potential issues and discuss remedies is, I feel, warranted. I would count this professor's comments as an opening salvo from one side of the debate.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:38 AM
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My 2 cents (disclaimer, I grew up homeschooled myself, so I am a biased source):

Homeschooling is one of those things that can backfire big time or pay off big time. It all depends on the parents and the students involved. My parents were prominent leaders in a homeschooling organization as well.

Now, some things that need debunking:

1. "Homeschoolers lack social skills because they don't interact with others" - plenty of homeschoolers get plenty of social interaction; indeed, many are often more skilled at interacting with people of all ages than their schooled peers, who often only hang out with classmates of similar age. One refrain in the homeschooling community was that one way to spot a homeschooled kid was that they preferred to have conversations with people much older than they.

2. "Homeschooling is conservative" - it initially started out that way, but increasingly it is becoming bipartisan and more liberals are doing so too.


The main payoff of homeschooling is that it enables kids to pursue specific interests or paths with a lot more focus or energy than they would have otherwise. I attended a Christian college with a disproportionate amount of homeschoolers and in the overall homeschooling community you'll find stories of kids who are advanced beyond their peers in a particular skill - be it math, music, history or some other focus - because they not only have more time to pursue that focus, but also have not had their interest in learning killed by the classroom the same way many other schooled kids have. (Sure, not all kids who go to school have their love for learning extinguished, but many do.)

One disadvantage of homeschooling is that, if homeschooled through high school, one lacks the high school GPA/transcripts for college application, so your SAT/ACT scores become all the more vital. You have to get a significantly higher SAT score to compensate for the lack of high school documentation. For this reason, and others, I recommend that many homeschoolers stop the homeschooling experiment before high school and just go to HS by then.

Last edited by Velocity; 05-13-2020 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:40 AM
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In Ontario, you need permission from the school board to home school. I don't think that's a happy medium, however. There aren't frequent check ups, and post-secondary schools can't trust the parent-generated report cards.

Home schooling has to be exhausting for the "teacher", who hopefully has a university degree and knows how to plan lessons, but there's a good chance they don't. Because they're not working, they have to be a homemaker. The children don't get to socialize as often, are constantly in that parent's presence, and so forth. And, of course, the elephant in the room: it's a fantastic way to hide abuse and educational neglect.

Like in many other places, schools try to pass everyone, even the undeserving. There's a test students take in grade 10 that they must pass to graduate in every Canadian province. But in Ontario, you can just take an extra course if you fail that test to pass, and if you fail that you can keep on trying until you reach eighteen. These courses are administered by the school (or by parents) so undeserving people pass anyway.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:45 AM
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I think there are plenty of reasonable arguments to be made against an outright categorical ban on homeschooling in the US, such as:

- Most other developed democracies also allow homeschooling education, although with stricter oversight than US law requires, and their outcomes seem satisfactory. [ETA: although remarks like Kimera757's about insufficient oversight are giving me pause.]

- Especially in a large and sparsely populated country like the US, many people have very limited access to education alternatives, so it would be unwise and unfair to take homeschooling off the table entirely.

- There are ways to provide more oversight and stricter standards for homeschooling without banning it outright.

One can make that case without resorting to splodyheaded strawman allegations like the OP's about anti-homeschoolers wanting "the state to be in absolute control and destroy parents rights to educate their children".

Last edited by Kimstu; 05-13-2020 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:47 AM
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One of the problems with talking about education in the United States is it varies not only from state-to-date but from county-to-county and even within the same district from school-to-school. But I was under the impression that home schooled children in most states were required to take some standardized test to ensure they were actually getting an education.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:48 AM
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Additionally, I'm assuming Dr. Bartholet herself was never homeschooled.

The danger of violence in schools (Minneapolis-Saint Paul, as an example), peer bullying, school shootings, etc. also has to be taken into account. Ironically, the same people who often decry bullying, classroom violence or school shootings will typically downplay the danger when homeschoolers say they want to keep their kids out of school because of those dangers.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:50 AM
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Ironically, the same people who often decry bullying, classroom violence or school shootings will typically downplay the danger when homeschoolers say they want to keep their kids out of school because of those dangers.
Do you have any evidence that there is any relationship between the former and the latter?
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:59 AM
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Surprise, the Harvard prof didn't even actually say what the OP said she said


Poking around for the actual article published by Bartholet, I notice some important wording in the abstract that the OP and his main source article left unquoted:
Quote:
This Article calls for a radical transformation in the homeschooling regime and a related rethinking of child rights. It recommends a presumptive ban on homeschooling, with the burden on parents to demonstrate justification for permission to homeschool.
In other words, Bartholet isn't even suggesting a categorical ban on homeschooling. She's merely arguing that parents who want to homeschool should have to demonstrate that their choice is justified and respects their child's constitutional right to an adequate education.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:08 PM
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If the concern is authoritarian control over children, I acknowledge that it's a legitimate concern (being a children's libber since approx 1st grade) but bloody hell, SCHOOLS have authoritarian control over children and are typically rather abusive of it. Whether a child's parents are more so or less so would vary a lot from family to family.

If the goal is to protect children from authoritarian control by adults, bickering about home schooling versus conventional schooling does not strike me as a useful place to start.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:27 PM
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As with everything, homeschooling should be regulated.

I know some home schooled kids who were home schooled specifically because their parents didn't want them exposed to the "evils" of public education. Those kids are messed up adults now. Mostly on drugs and food stamps.

Then there are some whose parents actually were really smart, and thought that they could do a better job than the school. Those kids are a bit off socially, but for the most part, do pretty well.

School is also a place where quite a bit of child abuse is caught and reported. Someone who physically abuses their family may wish to hide behind homeschooling in order to not get caught.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:29 PM
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The right to a good, modern education that meets minimum standards and makes one capable of contributing to society is the right of every individual child, and it's the right of society at large for everyone to be educated. Parents don't have a competing right to prevent it.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:46 PM
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The right to a good, modern education that meets minimum standards and makes one capable of contributing to society is the right of every individual child, and it's the right of society at large for everyone to be educated. Parents don't have a competing right to prevent it.
Parents do have a right to freely practice their religion, and that includes homeschooling their children if they so choose.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:51 PM
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I wouldn't go so far as to make it illegal. But I'm not in favor of home schooling. I think most parents who do it, do it for bad reasons and do a poor job of it.

I view home schooling as being like smoking cigarettes. You should be free to do it if you choose. But you should also be smart enough to choose not do it.

This does not apply to all of the parents who are currently being forced to teach their kids at home due to schools being closed. You guys are doing the best you can under difficult circumstances that you didn't choose.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:57 PM
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If the concern is authoritarian control over children, I acknowledge that it's a legitimate concern (being a children's libber since approx 1st grade) but bloody hell, SCHOOLS have authoritarian control over children and are typically rather abusive of it. Whether a child's parents are more so or less so would vary a lot from family to family.

If the goal is to protect children from authoritarian control by adults, bickering about home schooling versus conventional schooling does not strike me as a useful place to start.
I think the argument is that dividing up a child's time between two separate environments weakens the authoritarian possibilities of both of them. Parents can keep a watch for the signs that the school is too authoritarian and teachers can keep a watch for the signs that the home is too authoritarian.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:58 PM
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Parents do have a right to freely practice their religion, and that includes homeschooling their children if they so choose.
Well, parents have the right to teach their own religion to their children, of course. That doesn't mean they're entitled to prevent their children from receiving any other teaching. In fact, parents can be fined or jailed for "educational neglect" if their children don't get adequate schooling in some form, irrespective of whether they're getting religious training from their parents.
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:11 PM
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I vaguely recall interacting with some homeschooled kids when I was around 12 or so, and being appalled at their utter lack of the very basic scientific knowledge (like not knowing the difference between vertebrates and invertebrates). But I know of some other homeschooled kids who are just the opposite. I don't think it should be banned, but I do think homsechooling parents should be required to have some sort of certification at least to demonstrate that they have the requisite knowledge to pass on to their kids what every member of the community should know (i.e. the basics about the world around them, the basics of history, the basics of how society works, etc.).
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:11 PM
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Parents do have a right to freely practice their religion, and that includes homeschooling their children if they so choose.
yeah, those are the kids that end up on food stamps and drugs.
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:16 PM
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Should Homeschooling be banned?


When the Jonas Brother were beginning to become popular their parents had a conundrum as to how they would be educated. Which led to the question:

SPOILER:
Should the band be homeschooled?
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:17 PM
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yeah, those are the kids that end up on food stamps and drugs.
Wow. That's the most bigoted thing I've seen posted here in a long time.

Last edited by Oakminster; 05-13-2020 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:19 PM
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Well, parents have the right to teach their own religion to their children, of course. That doesn't mean they're entitled to prevent their children from receiving any other teaching. In fact, parents can be fined or jailed for "educational neglect" if their children don't get adequate schooling in some form, irrespective of whether they're getting religious training from their parents.
In fact, there are state approved home school programs that meet all applicable standards.
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:26 PM
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A simple example of why we don't want either the government nor parents to have absolute control over children: What is an abused child to do? A child who's being abused at home can tell their teachers, and a child who's being abused at school can tell their parents. If we had an environment where children at school were completely isolated from their parents, then children would have nobody they could report abuse to... but nobody ever recommends that, because everyone recognizes that it would be terrible. But what about homeschooled children abused by their parents? What recourse do they have?

And yes, I know that of course most homeschooling parents don't abuse their children, and it's perfectly possible for a homeschooling situation to turn out great for everyone involved. But that's not always the way it works, and so you need some way of dealing with the times when it doesn't.
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:27 PM
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In fact, there are state approved home school programs that meet all applicable standards.
Not all of the standards. Like, say, the standards that the teachers have to meet.
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:28 PM
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Parents do have a right to freely practice their religion, and that includes homeschooling their children if they so choose.
Only to the extent that homeschooling meets the same standards of education as those not being homeschooled. The right to practice one's religion doesn't extend to the right to prevent their children from receiving the benefits of education.
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:42 PM
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...it's perfectly possible for a homeschooling situation to turn out great for everyone involved. But that's not always the way it works, and so you need some way of dealing with the times when it doesn't.
Well, you could say exactly the same sentence about many school districts in the US. But that is not an argument to throw out public education.
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:47 PM
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The risk of some other parent doing a bad job is insufficient to ban mine from having done a good job. It doesn't take much to do better than the worst schools in this country anyway.
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:47 PM
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Not all of the standards. Like, say, the standards that the teachers have to meet.
Not the point. Licensed teachers educate other people's kids. A parent is entitled to educate his own child, in compliance with state law. Some of them form co-ops, where several families get together for certain types of classes. Some of the parents are religious. Some of the kids have special needs.
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:47 PM
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In fact, there are state approved home school programs that meet all applicable standards.
There's literally no regulation of private or home schools in Texas. You can do whatever you want. From the Texas website:

Quote:
Home Schools
Texas has no laws or regulations related to homeschooling. The state of Texas does not regulate, monitor, approve, register, or accredit programs available to parents who choose to homeschool their children. In addition, the state of Texas does not award a diploma to students who are homeschooled. However, in accordance with Texas Education Code §51.9241, the state of Texas considers the successful completion of a homeschool education to be equivalent to graduation from a public or private high school.
Here are the complete curricular requirements for private schools:

Quote:
Curriculum and Instruction
Under the Texas Supreme Court decision rendered in Leeper et al. vs. Arlington Independent School District et al. a homeschool curriculum must be designed to meet a minimum of basic education goals including reading, spelling, grammar, mathematics, and a study of good citizenship.
A home school will be considered a private school for the provision of services for children with disabilities if it provides elementary or secondary education that includes a curriculum designed to meet basic education goals, with a scope and sequential progress of courses and a review and documentation of student progress in place. Texas Administrative Code, Title 19, Part II, §89.1096

Look, I love homeschooling. We wanted to homeschool our son, but he likes school. I think it's an important option for parents to have. But there's also huge potential for abuse--both the potential for someone to hide physical abuse, and educational abuse.

I feel like a person's right to religious freedom doesn't trump each child's right to the sort of education they need to be functional in society. If your religion teaches that women should be traditional wives, and that any education beyond about 6th grade is inappropriate, well, that traps those girls. They can't leave later because they are economically dependent on their husbands, no matter how abusive those men are. They can't challenge anything, because they can't live outside the community. What are your thoughts on situations like that?
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:53 PM
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Since home-schooled children tend to exceed the standards of public education, banning home schooling is obviously not addressing that issue. The problem, as that Harvard harpy mentions, is that parents have too much authority and (in her ill-formed and bigoted opinion) the state has not enough. Thus they might
  1. Grossly outperform the public schools, thus forming a group of well-educated over-achievers who will hurt the self-esteem of others, and
  2. Teach un-approved thought, which in the minds of the liberal elite always equates to racism/sexism/heresy.
Teacher's unions don't want the competition, and liberals don't want children to be taught anything but liberal thought. Hence the call to ban home-schooling.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:54 PM
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Harpy again huh
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Old 05-13-2020, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Since home-schooled children tend to exceed the standards of public education, banning home schooling is obviously not addressing that issue. The problem, as that Harvard harpy mentions, is that parents have too much authority and (in her ill-formed and bigoted opinion) the state has not enough. Thus they might
  1. Grossly outperform the public schools, thus forming a group of well-educated over-achievers who will hurt the self-esteem of others, and
  2. Teach un-approved thought, which in the minds of the liberal elite always equates to racism/sexism/heresy.
Teacher's unions don't want the competition, and liberals don't want children to be taught anything but liberal thought. Hence the call to ban home-schooling.

Regards,
Shodan
Holy shit, this whole post.
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Old 05-13-2020, 02:28 PM
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I think the argument is that dividing up a child's time between two separate environments weakens the authoritarian possibilities of both of them. Parents can keep a watch for the signs that the school is too authoritarian and teachers can keep a watch for the signs that the home is too authoritarian.
OK, that's actually a very good argument. I was once leery of living in the dorms for somewhat related reasons, visualizing a dispute about something academic affecting the security of my living situation or vice versa. Safer to not be in the embrace of the same institution at all times, etc.
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Old 05-13-2020, 02:34 PM
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...
So what do you all think? I've worked with alot of homeschooled kids and while I've seen some negatives, most of the times the kids are actually educationally ahead of their public school peers and have just as much peer interaction.

Quite frankly the Harvard proff, her big problem is she wants the state to be in absolute control and destroy parents rights to educate their children.

Granted this is just one professor but its sad shes at such a high regarded university.

Yes, it should be banned. IF by "Homeschooling" you mean taking the kid out of school so the kid gets nothing but taught at home- which far too often means brainwashing and indoctrination into religious cults.

Now, if a parent wants to give add'l instruction, other than public school- they yes, sure that is a great idea. My Dad was a teacher and taught me to read at a very early age. But I still went to public school- except 7 & 8th grade.

I would extend this to no more private schools even, unless their program is overseen by elected officials. I dont want any kids being taught that Evolution is fake or even worse- that being fucked by your dad who has twenty wives is A Good Thing.

Yes, I know that a good number of kids who are homeschooled get a better education. But nothing stops the Parent from giving that kid 2-4 hours of home instruction also.

Public school has more benefits that just education. Kids get socialized with other kids- of all races, creeds, and sexes. This helps stop racism.
  #38  
Old 05-13-2020, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
...
Now, some things that need debunking:

1. "Homeschoolers lack social skills because they don't interact with others" - plenty of homeschoolers get plenty of social interaction; indeed, many are often more skilled at interacting with people of all ages than their schooled peers, who often only hang out with classmates of similar age. One refrain in the homeschooling community was that one way to spot a homeschooled kid was that they preferred to have conversations with people much older than they.

...
Some homeschoolers do lack social skills.

Some homeschoolers are taught in the compound that it is Right and a Good thing to have daddy fuck them, as God wants it that way. Mind you, that is a small number, sure, but why handwave them away?
  #39  
Old 05-13-2020, 02:45 PM
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Poking around for the actual article published by Bartholet, I notice some important wording in the abstract that the OP and his main source article left unquoted:


In other words, Bartholet isn't even suggesting a categorical ban on homeschooling. She's merely arguing that parents who want to homeschool should have to demonstrate that their choice is justified and respects their child's constitutional right to an adequate education.
That makes sense. You get some well educated parents who will show that their kid wont be simply religiously brainwashed, and can make sure they kids get plenty of socialization, and fine.

You get Parents screaming it is Gods Will that their Child cannot attend the Godless public school- not so much.
  #40  
Old 05-13-2020, 02:48 PM
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remember those 9 kids that were beaten starved and other abuses? they were homeschooled in what 4 or 5states?

But people are forgetting there are 2 different kinds of homeschooling too..... there's the "you still register at a public school and do the work they give you just at home" type also where you go in once a week and a teacher does a lecture/explains it once a week

then you get the types that homeschool because of their beliefs the " my kids are going around o sinners darkies etc ......
  #41  
Old 05-13-2020, 02:56 PM
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I vaguely recall interacting with some homeschooled kids when I was around 12 or so, and being appalled at their utter lack of the very basic scientific knowledge (like not knowing the difference between vertebrates and invertebrates). But I know of some other homeschooled kids who are just the opposite. I don't think it should be banned, but I do think homsechooling parents should be required to have some sort of certification at least to demonstrate that they have the requisite knowledge to pass on to their kids what every member of the community should know (i.e. the basics about the world around them, the basics of history, the basics of how society works, etc.).
No they dont. You see most home school families follow a curriculum and sometimes its online based so the parents dont need that much knowledge. The knowledge is in the curriculum. Also they get together so maybe once a week they all get together at someones house who is big on science and they do that or music or art.

As for socialization they:

1. Have their own sports teams.
2. Organize field trips.
3. Have clubs like lego club.
4. Have dances, parties, and proms.

This is thru coops. HERE is the site for the one in my area and HERE is a statewide one. HERE is another just for homeschool sports teams.
  #42  
Old 05-13-2020, 02:58 PM
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I don't think it should be banned, but I do think homsechooling parents should be required to have some sort of certification at least to demonstrate that they have the requisite knowledge to pass on to their kids what every member of the community should know (i.e. the basics about the world around them, the basics of history, the basics of how society works, etc.).
No they dont. You see most home school families follow a curriculum and sometimes its online based so the parents dont need that much knowledge. The knowledge is in the curriculum. Also they get together so maybe once a week they all get together at someones house who is big on science and they do that or music or art.

As for socialization they:

1. Have their own sports teams.
2. Organize field trips.
3. Have clubs like lego club.
4. Have dances, parties, and proms.

This is thru coops. HERE is the site for the one in my area and HERE is a statewide one. HERE is another just for homeschool sports teams.
  #43  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:01 PM
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Since home-schooled children tend to exceed the standards of public education
Well, it depends very much on the type of homeschooling practiced. Homeschooled children who take standardized tests on average outperform their school-educated peers. But many homeschooled kids from fundamentalist families aren't encouraged to take academic tests or even to get their GED (especially if they're girls). And the fundamentalist-Christian homeschool curricula often have catastrophic gaps or outright lies in, e.g., sciences and social sciences.

Over one-third of parents cite "religious or moral instruction" as their main motive for homeschooling, and this 2014 research summary puts it even higher:
Quote:
Although the modern homeschooling movement emerged from counter-cultural criticisms of public schools popularized by John Holt in the late 1960s, conservative Christians have constituted the majority of homeschooling families since the 1980s. [...] reports from the National Center for Education Statistics reveal that over two-thirds indicate that “a desire to provide religious instruction” and "moral instruction" are two of their primary motivations. [...] surveys indicate that theologically conservative Christians still represent the largest bloc. In addition, the most important institutions that influence public policies regarding homeschooling, such as the Home School Legal Defense Association, are Christian organizations. [...]

The production and distribution of textbooks and curricula for homeschooling is a billion dollar industry that is essential to the movement. Without these prepared materials, most homeschooling parents, who rarely have training in education or child development, would struggle to develop a structured educational program for their children.

As one may expect, because a majority of parents choose homeschooling based upon religious motivations, many of the most popular curricula—Sonlight, A Beka, Alpha Omega, Bob Jones, Ambleside Online, Apologia, Seton Home, Christian Liberty, My Father’s World, and more—integrate religious references into their materials and align their content with conservative Christian theology. Thus, these religiously inspired curricula are shaping the education and consequently the future of hundreds of thousands of children each year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan
that Harvard harpy
There there, I'm sure that with practice you can learn to spell "Dr. Bartholet" correctly even if you were homeschooled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan
parents have too much authority and (in her ill-formed and bigoted opinion) the state has not enough.
Well, if the state constitutionally guarantees each child's right to an education, the state obviously does need to have sufficient authority to ensure that each child can actually get such education. If the state is exercising no effective oversight on parental homeschooling, then there's nothing "bigoted" about pointing out that the state's authority is insufficient.
  #44  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:02 PM
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No they dont. You see most home school families follow a curriculum and sometimes its online based so the parents dont need that much knowledge. The knowledge is in the curriculum.
That doesn't sound good enough for me. Kids should be encouraged to ask questions and explore outside of just the curriculum, and teachers (parents for homschoolers) should have the knowledge of the basics to answer right off the bat, and the tools to find the answers for the things they can't.

Just as an example, those home schooled kids I associated with when I was 12 clearly had deficient education in science. That shouldn't have happened, and those kids probably suffered for lack of basic knowledge.

The rest of your post didn't address anything I said.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-13-2020 at 03:05 PM.
  #45  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:03 PM
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No they dont. You see most home school families follow a curriculum and sometimes its online based so the parents dont need that much knowledge. The knowledge is in the curriculum. Also they get together so maybe once a week they all get together at someones house who is big on science and they do that or music or art.
Some do. Others don't let the kids leave the house, end the education at basic math and reading (especially of girls). Others use it as an excuse to get CPS and truancy court off their backs, so they can better totally ignore their kids and let them run wild.

What are your thoughts about parents like that?
  #46  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:07 PM
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Poking around for the actual article published by Bartholet,
Ok, when you were poking around that article does it ever mention Bartholet actually TALKING to people?

I cannot believe that is if she is so darn smart she cannot go thru the simple trouble of looking up student records at her own university and finding some that are home schooled and talk to them. Why not?

In her own community where Harvard is based I'm sure their are homeschool families. Why didnt she go and talk to them?

But no. She based everything on published documents and news reports.
  #47  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:09 PM
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Some do. Others don't let the kids leave the house, end the education at basic math and reading (especially of girls). Others use it as an excuse to get CPS and truancy court off their backs, so they can better totally ignore their kids and let them run wild.

What are your thoughts about parents like that?
What do you want me to say? Should we also talk about crappy public schools and kids graduating that can barely read or write? Why are you focused on the worse?

Do you actually know many home school families?
  #48  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:09 PM
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You see most home school families follow a curriculum and sometimes its online based so the parents dont need that much knowledge. The knowledge is in the curriculum.
We don't accept "the knowledge is in the curriculum" as a sufficient excuse for a professional educator not having adequate knowledge of the subject they're supposed to teach. Why should we accept such an excuse on the part of a homeschooling parent, who is legally and ethically just as responsible for providing proper education for their child?

"Teachers don't need to know very much because students can just get their information out of the curriculum" is not a persuasive argument either for regular schooling or for homeschooling.
  #49  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
Some do. Others don't let the kids leave the house, end the education at basic math and reading (especially of girls). Others use it as an excuse to get CPS and truancy court off their backs, so they can better totally ignore their kids and let them run wild.

What are your thoughts about parents like that?
What do you want me to say? Should we also talk about crappy public schools and kids graduating that can barely read or write? As has been said there are good and bad homeschooling families.
  #50  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:21 PM
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Well, it depends very much on the type of homeschooling practiced. Homeschooled children who take standardized tests on average outperform their school-educated peers. But many homeschooled kids from fundamentalist families aren't encouraged to take academic tests or even to get their GED (especially if they're girls). And the fundamentalist-Christian homeschool curricula often have catastrophic gaps or outright lies in, e.g., sciences and social sciences.
....
Yep, those kids never take the tests so they arent included in the stats.

Some homeschooled kids learn nothing but how to read the bible, pray and do chores- it is God's Will. Especially girls.
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