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  #51  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Yep, those kids never take the tests so they arent included in the stats.

Some homeschooled kids learn nothing but how to read the bible, pray and do chores- it is God's Will. Especially girls.
Cite, please. And a link to Carrie wont suffice.
  #52  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck
Ok, when you were poking around that article does it ever mention Bartholet actually TALKING to people?

I cannot believe that is if she is so darn smart she cannot go thru the simple trouble of looking up student records at her own university and finding some that are home schooled and talk to them. Why not?

In her own community where Harvard is based I'm sure their are homeschool families. Why didnt she go and talk to them?

But no. She based everything on published documents and news reports.
I must be misunderstanding you. Are you seriously suggesting that cherrypicking some personal narratives from homeschooled Harvard students, and Harvard-community students, would somehow be a valid rebuttal to Dr. Bartholet's research involving "published documents"?

Because if so, that's the most godawfully feeble attempt at an argument I've seen in a long time. You seem to be imagining that the problem is just that Dr. Bartholet doesn't happen to know about any homeschooling success stories, and if she only talked to some people for whom homeschooling works well, that would change her gloomy little outlook for her.

But that's absolutely absurd. She fully acknowledges the great diversity of the homeschooling population right there on p. 10 of her above-linked article:
Quote:
Some parents choose homeschooling because they feel that their children will be discriminated against in the public schools, denied disability accommodations, or bullied. Some choose homeschooling because they want their children to have the flexibility to pursue demanding commitments in dance, sports, or theater, or because they live in remote areas with no nearby schools, falling into a category characterized as “practical” or “convenience” homeschooling. Some choose homeschooling, as did the original progressive wing, because of the flaws they see in traditional education, such as an overemphasis on rote learning and testing. Some believe that they can provide their children a superior education because of the limitations of their local schools or because of the parents’ advanced qualifications, ability to engage superior tutors, or access to online learning opportunities. [...] Many homeschooling parents work cooperatively with each other both to provide a quality education and to ensure that their children have significant contact with other children. Many make efforts to enable their children to participate in certain school programs such as sports.
Everybody in higher education is aware of this diversity, and of the many spectacular success stories of homeschooling, especially if they teach someplace like an Ivy League university. I've taught at an Ivy League university myself, and at other highly competitive colleges, and I've encountered plenty of amazing homeschooled students. Bartholet isn't trying to argue that there aren't lots of amazing homeschooled students out there. Her concerns, on the contrary, are whether the amazing success stories are representative of homeschooled students in general, and what protections the state should provide for students for whom the education provided by homeschooling is inadequate, error-ridden, and/or downright abusive.

Just "going and talking to" some local happy and successful homeschooling families wouldn't accomplish jack-shit in answering those questions, and I can hardly believe that you were so naive as to assume that it might.
  #53  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by madsircool View Post
Cite, please.
If what you want is a cite for the claim of mine that DrDeth was agreeing with, namely that "many homeschooled kids from fundamentalist families aren't encouraged to take academic tests or even to get their GED (especially if they're girls)", you can find some likewise right there in Dr. Bartholet's article (I've removed the footnote numbers for readability):
Quote:
As Dwyer and Peters say in their recent comprehensive book on homeschooling, many religious homeschoolers object in principle to some core goals of public education:
Quote:
[T]hey reject the value of independent thinking about values and aims in life, they oppose instruction in scientific methodologies . . . and they want to constrain their daughters’ lives to a single occupation— housewife. To the extent parents in this group do value secular learning, they treat it—even basic literacy—as of little importance compared to unflinching acceptance of religious doctrine and reactionary political views.
[...]

Some homeschooling parents are extreme religious ideologues who live in near-total isolation and hold views in serious conflict with those generally deemed central in our society. For example, some believe that women should be totally subservient to men and educated in ways that promote such subservience. [...] The “Quiverfull” and “Stay at Home Daughter” movements endorse confining women to the domestic sphere and subjecting them to the control of first their fathers and then their husbands. Some in these movements believe homeschooled girls should only be educated in household tasks. Many homeschooling families pursue a “less rigorous version of female submission,” limiting girls’ educations by assigning them extensive household and child-rearing duties.
  #54  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:41 PM
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Cite, please. And a link to Carrie wont suffice.
Cite for what?
  #55  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:43 PM
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If what you want is a cite for the claim of mine that DrDeth was agreeing with, namely that "many homeschooled kids from fundamentalist families aren't encouraged to take academic tests or even to get their GED (especially if they're girls)", you can find some likewise right there in Dr. Bartholet's article (I've removed the footnote numbers for readability):
I get that but he made the ridiculous claim that "Some homeschooled kids learn nothing but how to read the bible, pray and do chores-". Those kinds of comments really dont add anything to the conversation.
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Old 05-13-2020, 03:44 PM
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Cite for what?
To what you claimed in your post.
  #57  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:54 PM
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I get that but he made the ridiculous claim that "Some homeschooled kids learn nothing but how to read the bible, pray and do chores-". Those kinds of comments really dont add anything to the conversation.
I hate to disillusion you, and I certainly hope and trust that such extreme cases aren't at all representative for even the most dogmatically religious subset of homeschoolers, but if you think that such extreme cases don't exist at all, you are kidding yourself.

Quote:
Melinda Palmer, 29, is another home-school graduate who is forthcoming about the problems she encountered as a home-schooled child. [...]

Palmer sends me a note after we talk that reads, “I know of a family right now in pretty much the exact same situation we were in back then. They reported [their home-schooling status] to the state once, eight years ago, and never after that, to my knowledge. The state never caught on... They are one of the families I know whose children are functionally illiterate. Their 18-year-old daughter can read, but can barely write a paragraph… and the education goes significantly downhill from there. Her youngest brother, almost 11, has barely learned to read.”
  #58  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:59 PM
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I hate to disillusion you, and I certainly hope and trust that such extreme cases aren't at all representative for even the most dogmatically religious subset of homeschoolers, but if you think that such extreme cases don't exist at all, you are kidding yourself.
I never hinted that there aren't rare cases of extreme abuse. But he claimed that 'some homeschooled kids' and I think that is an exaggeration based on religious bigotry. Cults are a minuscule subset of religious homeschooled children.
  #59  
Old 05-13-2020, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by madsircool View Post
I get that but he made the ridiculous claim that "Some homeschooled kids learn nothing but how to read the bible, pray and do chores-". Those kinds of comments really dont add anything to the conversation.

https://jesuswithoutbaggage.wordpres...ling-movement/
ACE, the curriculum with which I am most familiar, is certainly inadequate. It consists of units on various subjects designed for student self-learning. The student reads through the material and then takes a test on that unit; answers are based on rote memorization. Then the student scores themselves using a scoring key. The curriculum also contains a lot of biblical material.

Perhaps some former homeschoolers can provide information on other curricula.

Another aspect of homeschooling quality is the level of the homeschooling parents’ knowledge and teaching skills. Often this is woefully inadequate and sometimes nonexistent. In 2016 16% of homeschooling parents had a high school or equivalency education; 15% never finished high school.

In most cases the state is unable to track or evaluate the students’ level of achievement because homeschoolers have successfully demanded little or no monitoring by the state. Therefore, many students—who are promised that the homeschooling program matches or exceeds public education—find that they must take remedial education to get into college....Fundamentalist homeschooling has a very strong anti-science bias—especially in any field related to evolution, such as archaeology, genetics, and age-dating techniques. So far as I know, all fundamentalist homeschooling embraces Young Earth Creationism, which claims that the earth is no older than 10,000 years, that humans lived with dinosaurs, and that evolution is a lie...4. Widespread Child Abuse

You probably have heard some of the horror stories of homeschooled children who have been severely abused—they seem to be far too common in the press. Not all parents are child abusers but many are, and I think there are two reasons for this connection.

First, severe child-rearing techniques are widely popular among fundamentalists. There are a number of widely distributed books that promote these principles, which many outside fundamentalism consider abusive. One principle is to ‘break the spirit’ of the child—even as an infant. Another is to use corporal punishment (hitting the child) as a primary way to form control and secure obedience.

Secondly, some parents are criminally abusive to their children in additional ways. For both groups homeschooling is a convenient way to avoid detection and possible arrest


And this is from a Christian site that is generally in favor of homeschooling.

https://www.salon.com/2014/09/10/how...ldren_partner/
Poring over their stories, I was shocked to find so many tales of gross educational neglect. I don’t merely mean that they had received what I now view as an overly politicized education with huge gaps, for example, in American history, evolution or sexuality. Rather, what disturbed me were the many stories about homeschoolers who were barely literate when they graduated, or whose math and science education had never extended much past middle school.

Last edited by DrDeth; 05-13-2020 at 04:10 PM.
  #60  
Old 05-13-2020, 04:15 PM
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I never hinted that there aren't rare cases of extreme abuse. But he claimed that 'some homeschooled kids' and I think that is an exaggeration based on religious bigotry. Cults are a minuscule subset of religious homeschooled children.
Yes, cults, like the Jack Mormons who live in compounds, where the Father's rape their daughters, etc- are indeed a minuscule subset .

But somewhere around 25% of Christians are Fundamentalists. That is by no means a a minuscule subset.

And I would say 25% certainly qualifies as "some".
  #61  
Old 05-13-2020, 04:23 PM
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Cults are a minuscule subset of religious homeschooled children.
Well, I suppose it depends on where you draw the line between "religious" and "cults", and what size you consider "minuscule".
  #62  
Old 05-13-2020, 04:27 PM
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Indoctrination


Domestic tranquility requires some indoctrination of all citizens. We must share:

A language
A number system
A system of mathematics
An economic philosophy
A common understanding of the Constitution
A common understanding of our history
A scientific view of reality
A common understanding of social norms
A common understanding of the benefits and responsibilities of citizenship

The state is responsible for providing the information and each citizen is responsible for learning it. Passing a standard test is reasonable evidence of knowledge. So it can be obtained through home schooling or public school.

Religions are life style organizations. They should not influence education.

Sadly, children can be subjected to religious indoctrination by their parents.
  #63  
Old 05-13-2020, 04:42 PM
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Ok, when you were poking around that article does it ever mention Bartholet actually TALKING to people?

I cannot believe that is if she is so darn smart she cannot go thru the simple trouble of looking up student records at her own university and finding some that are home schooled and talk to them. Why not?

In her own community where Harvard is based I'm sure their are homeschool families. Why didnt she go and talk to them?

But no. She based everything on published documents and news reports.
.....what? You comprehend that the singular form of "data" is not "anecdote", right? Peer reviewed studies about the efficacy and outcomes of homeschooling is exactly what we SHOULD look at, rather than talking to random people -- are you serious?
  #64  
Old 05-13-2020, 05:03 PM
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I'm ambivalent on whether homeschooling should be banned. The countries that have banned it seem to be holding up fairly well. From a quick Google search, it looks like only 3% of children are home-schooled anyway, with the other 97% not taught "anything but liberal thought." It's really remarkable that there are any conservatives left with all of this liberal indoctrination.

Those who are adamant that homeschooling should be allowed, should those children be required to pass regular exams in history, English (writing and literature), various sciences and math subjects, and so on? I think twice-yearly mandated exams would make sense, paid for by the state. If the kids fail the tests, they have to go to an accredited public or private school.

If that were the requirement, I'd no longer be ambivalent towards home schooling -- it would be fine by me. My concern is that some portion of those 3% of kids aren't getting any education to speak of. How do the supporters in this thread feel about a regular testing requirement in all major subjects?
  #65  
Old 05-13-2020, 05:11 PM
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I'm ambivalent on whether homeschooling should be banned.
Not trying to junior-mod the discussion about whether homeschooling should or shouldn't be banned, but just adding in the intermediate position proposed by Dr. Bartholet (and somewhat misrepresented in the OP).

Namely, what Harvard prof Dr. Bartholet actually advocated was that homeschooling should be subjected to a presumptive ban, meaning that by default nobody has automatic permission to homeschool, but you can still get permission to homeschool if you make a convincing case for it. So homeschooling woud be neither automatically permitted nor categorically forbidden.
  #66  
Old 05-13-2020, 05:15 PM
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What do you want me to say? Should we also talk about crappy public schools and kids graduating that can barely read or write? As has been said there are good and bad homeschooling families.
Dude, I am on the record for being pro-homeschooling. I just think it needs to be somewhat regulated and all kids should receive a base level of services. I am also in favor of lots of forms of education reform. I don't want to just let the the bad schools OR the bad homeschoolers fester.
  #67  
Old 05-13-2020, 05:28 PM
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The Bipartisan Growth of Homeschooling - article notes that "it was the countercultural left who first embraced homeschooling in the late-1970s"

Liberal Homeschoolers: Who We Are

Democrats Homeschool, too
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Old 05-13-2020, 05:31 PM
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Quoth Urbanredneck:

No they dont. You see most home school families follow a curriculum and sometimes its online based so the parents dont need that much knowledge.
The fact that many parents believe that a teacher doesn't need much knowledge is a very strong argument against allowing homeschooling.

And a lot of homeschooling proponents have said that since it's only the folks own children, it should be their right, but have then in the next breath talked about "homeschool collectives", where it isn't just their own children. A "homeschool collective" isn't homeschooling; it's a school, just one that isn't required to meet the same standards as other schools.

If personal anecdotes matter, my mom's a teacher (a real one, who's required by law to be competent at teaching). There was a time, back when I was a teenager, when it looked like homeschooling might turn out to be the only option available for me. And she was very nervous about that, and very relieved when it turned out not to be necessary, because she knew that the quality of education I'd receive that way would be inferior to a real school.
  #69  
Old 05-13-2020, 05:33 PM
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The Bipartisan Growth of Homeschooling - article notes that "it was the countercultural left who first embraced homeschooling in the late-1970s"

Liberal Homeschoolers: Who We Are

Democrats Homeschool, too
Previous posts in this thread have already pointed out the leftist roots of the homeschool movement, and the fact that there are homeschoolers all across the political spectrum.

AFAICT none of the critics of homeschooling in this thread are under the impression that all homeschoolers are conservatives and/or fundamentalists. I support adequate regulation and oversight for homeschooling, irrespective of the ideological beliefs of the parents.
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Old 05-13-2020, 06:14 PM
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I never hinted that there aren't rare cases of extreme abuse. But he claimed that 'some homeschooled kids' and I think that is an exaggeration based on religious bigotry. Cults are a minuscule subset of religious homeschooled children.
One what statistic do you base your last statement?
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Old 05-13-2020, 06:27 PM
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In other words, Bartholet isn't even suggesting a categorical ban on homeschooling. .
No, you're right, she's suggesting a presumptive ban.

Given the abysmal failure of many large school districts to provide an education for their students I suggest a presumptive ban on her employment by Harvard.
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Old 05-13-2020, 06:33 PM
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From the "Homeschooling is the U.S." Wiki:
Motivations for homeschooling in the US (2011-2012)
Motivation Percentage of parents:
A concern about the school environment-91%
A desire to provide religious instruction-64%
A desire to provide moral instruction-77%
A dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools-74%
Provide a nontraditional approach to education-44%
Child has special needs-16%
Child has a physical or mental health problem-15%
Other reasons-37%

From a ThoughtCo artle titled Why Homeschooling is on the Rise:
-31.2 percent of home-schooling parents say that “concern about the environment of other schools” was their primary reason for home instruction
-16.5 percent stated “dissatisfaction with the academic instruction in other schools”
-29.8 percent said “to provide religious or moral instruction”
-6.5 percent was “because the child has a physical or mental health problem”
-7.2 percent said “because the child has other special needs”
-8.8 percent gave “other reasons”

All in all, I wouldn't say religious motivation was "miniscule".

Last edited by Czarcasm; 05-13-2020 at 06:34 PM.
  #73  
Old 05-13-2020, 06:42 PM
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No, you're right, she's suggesting a presumptive ban.



Given the abysmal failure of many large school districts to provide an education for their students I suggest a presumptive ban on her employment by Harvard.
Harvard should fire her because she hurts your fee fees?

Last edited by Chingon; 05-13-2020 at 06:42 PM.
  #74  
Old 05-13-2020, 06:51 PM
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THIS Harvard professor says yes.

The article says"
A Harvard University law professor has sparked controversy after calling for a ban on homeschooling.
Surprise, surprise, there is nowhere in this article or the linked articles where the professor is ever quoted as recommending a ban on homeschooling.

To discover this information, I performed the magic trick of reading beyond the headline of the article.

Again.
  #75  
Old 05-13-2020, 06:55 PM
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No, you're right, she's suggesting a presumptive ban.
Yup. Glad we got that cleared up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magiver
Given the abysmal failure of many large school districts to provide an education for their students I suggest a presumptive ban on her employment by Harvard.
For pointing out that educational neglect and abuse under the guise of irresponsibly unregulated homeschooling is a serious violation of children's rights and a bad thing for civil society?

I'm afraid you're being carried away by the knee-jerk conservative tendency to furiously deny the truth of anything you don't want to hear and shoot the messenger who announces it.

When you calm down, though, think about the fact that nobody, including Dr. Bartholet, is denying that there are many serious problems with many school systems in the US, just as there are with many homeschooling practices. The difference is that we have legal oversight regulations for school systems that mandate supervising them and investigating and reporting their problems.

We have policies strictly limiting what school authorities are allowed to do to kids in the name of discipline, and what they are allowed to tell them in the name of education. We have elected school boards that oversee schools' policies and performance. And when schools or their employees perform badly, we make an almighty fuss about it, and rightly so.

What we don't do is just toss kids into the sole control of the school system 24/7/365, with no effective requirements or supervision about what they're taught or how they're treated. Yet many homeschooled kids are left in exactly that situation with abusive and/or incompetent parents.

And when somebody points out that that's a violation of children's rights and we ought to enact stricter laws to prevent it, what we get from conservatives is just a bunch of infuriated vindictive wattle-wobbling about how that damn "harpy" ought to be kicked out of her job for her communistic assault on the divine rights of parents to have complete control over their kids.
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Old 05-13-2020, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
From the "Homeschooling is the U.S." Wiki:
Motivations for homeschooling in the US (2011-2012)
Motivation Percentage of parents:
A concern about the school environment-91%
A desire to provide religious instruction-64%
A desire to provide moral instruction-77%
A dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools-74%
Provide a nontraditional approach to education-44%
Child has special needs-16%
Child has a physical or mental health problem-15%
Other reasons-37%

From a ThoughtCo artle titled Why Homeschooling is on the Rise:
-31.2 percent of home-schooling parents say that “concern about the environment of other schools” was their primary reason for home instruction
-16.5 percent stated “dissatisfaction with the academic instruction in other schools”
-29.8 percent said “to provide religious or moral instruction”
-6.5 percent was “because the child has a physical or mental health problem”
-7.2 percent said “because the child has other special needs”
-8.8 percent gave “other reasons”

All in all, I wouldn't say religious motivation was "miniscule".
To be fair, he did say " Cults are a minuscule subset of religious homeschooled children."

But yes, religion is the big reason today, and I would have to say that about 1/4 of those that listed religion as their main reason are fundies. Fundies arent quite a "cult" (there are too many of them), but there are quite a few cult like characteristics in being a strict Fundamentalist Christian.
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Old 05-13-2020, 07:41 PM
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To be fair, he didn't define "cults".
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Since home-schooled children tend to exceed the standards of public education, banning home schooling is obviously not addressing that issue. The problem, as that Harvard harpy mentions, is that parents have too much authority and (in her ill-formed and bigoted opinion) the state has not enough. Thus they might
  1. Grossly outperform the public schools, thus forming a group of well-educated over-achievers who will hurt the self-esteem of others, and
  2. Teach un-approved thought, which in the minds of the liberal elite always equates to racism/sexism/heresy.
Teacher's unions don't want the competition, and liberals don't want children to be taught anything but liberal thought. Hence the call to ban home-schooling.

Regards,
Shodan
We've had the discussion about 'harpy' before, Shodan. Let's keep the sexism to a minimum, everybody.

Warning issued.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:55 PM
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Outright banning is rarely a good solution for anything except in a rare crisis, and even then only temporarily.

The particular way this is described comes across as a solution in search of a problem. Even if there is some huge problem with home schooling, I'm not sure I would trust someone using this methodology not to make the problem worse.

I have fairly liberal progressive friends in Vermont who homeschooled their 4 adopted daughters. They all got into college and seem to be thriving. They self directed how much of high school they wanted to attend- generally they tended to chose mostly to participate in things it had greater resources for like sports and music programs. None of them had social issues, and in fact, the one daughter for whom socializing was a priority, was surprisingly popular and engaged for a homeschooled girl living on a dirt road on a mountain a good 30-40 minutes drive away from town. She eventually joined the HS hockey team.

So I don't think you can generalize.

And I agree with the poster who said that all of the same issues can have the school system as a source.

Isolation, bias, and stagnation are huge potential problems for any situation where there is no balance between resources. Hence the eggs in one basket and takes a village adages.

Probably the best solution is to create more flexibility to have a little of both in whatever form works best for the individual student and their family, as well as encouraging the development of additional opportunities and resources, like internships, apprenticeships, community service and volunteering, maker/creative workshops/labs/studios/libraries, and so forth.
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:34 PM
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Yup. Glad we got that cleared up.
Yes, it was important to show her intent.

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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
For pointing out that educational neglect and abuse under the guise of irresponsibly unregulated homeschooling is a serious violation of children's rights and a bad thing for civil society?
I haven't seen any irresponsible homeschooling. Everybody I met who was home schooled was very well educated. I can't say that for the public school system where 3/4 of them fail to meet the ACT standards needed to move on to college. I would consider that educational neglect on a large scale. One even a Harvard professor could understand.

but thanks for your political bias which has nothing to do with what I said.
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:56 PM
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Of the couple dozen or so homeschooled people I've met, only one is a well adjusted, smart (though not necessarily well educated), kind human being. Also he's my best friend in the entire world. All the others are either religious hateful idiot shitbags, or strung out junkie idiots trying to get away from the Horrors of their religious hateful abusive idiot shitbag parents.

Anecdotes aren't data, YMMV, yadda yadda yadda, lobster bisque.

In short, maybe not ban, but definitely regulate.
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:01 PM
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Both of my nieces were home-schooled at various times during their school years, primarily because of health issues. Their parents picked up the lessons from the school each day, and returned them the next when they picked up that day's curriculum, and there were some other kids who were doing the same thing.

In the 1990s, their parents lived in Kansas City and Houston, TX, back when HSing was mostly considered a wackadoodle lunatic fringe kind of thing, and in both cities, they met TEACHERS who homeschooled, because the public schools were so bad, and the private schools were frightfully expensive and/or no better, and had long waiting lists. They knew they definitely didn't want to raise their future children in those cities.

A craft store owner in my old town, a devout Lutheran herself, didn't know that people like the fundies described elsewhere in this thread existed until some of the kids started coming to the store's lesson room for "socialization." These kids did indeed know the Bible inside and out, and not much else, and didn't seem to know basic math, an age-appropriate knowledge of current events, etc.

The people I've known personally who HSed, regardless of their religious and/or political beliefs, have almost always had the right intentions, and I even know of several Christian families who used a secular curriculum because they were doing this for other reasons.
  #83  
Old 05-13-2020, 10:04 PM
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All I know is that the current schooling system is overrated.
It's actually not that important. People only think it is. The reality is
education and schooling aren't the same thing. You can still get an incredible
life education without schooling.

We live in a world that is operating still on an old and outdated education system.
Institutionalized schooling was invented to prepare and condition future factory workers or assembly/office workers. Sure, you could throw in higher thinking and critical thinking, but that's more in university. The reality of schooling is that it was an efficient way to control the masses and create a system that much resembled the actual working life system.

Well, we are getting away from that system slowly. People don't need to work 9-5 anymore. You can work any hours, you can work from any location on this planet, you can do so many different things that it's time that education be revamped.

Home schooling doesn't have to be only parents with their kids for 18 years. That's really naive and short-sighted.

I'd take it to another level where you can have a small group of maybe 3-6 students who are educated in a more "personalized" system...something more like coaching, mentoring, or apprenticeship. This way, they can still get homeschooling by their parents, but also from outside teachers/coaches in particular things, and with a small group of other peers to get some social interactions and develop social skills.


The key for future education is the specialization and catering to each individual's specific needs. That is the key. It's too hard to do that now because we can't have 100 teachers in every school for 100 students. They need 1 teacher to take 30 students in a class etc. Or 1 professor to lecture to 1,000 in a lecture hall. Seems kinda dumb because you could just stay at home and watch youtube mastery videos and it's the same thing, maybe even better because it's free or really low cost compared to paying $10k per year at colleges or more.

With A.I. you will be able to facilitate the needs of every person as a unique individual and tailor all the education to the specific needs of each person. That is the future of education...of course once neural link goes live, you can just download the information to your brain and instantly be educated (like the Matrix), but that's at least 10 years away.
  #84  
Old 05-13-2020, 10:09 PM
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Most homeschoolers I have met--yes, this is anecdotal, bear with me--have been religious Jews or Hindus. While they make up a pretty miniscule percentage of the overall picture, homeschooling addresses a real and dire need for them. Banning homeschooling to smite the faces of Mormon polygamists is a bit shortsighted, IMO.
  #85  
Old 05-13-2020, 10:13 PM
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No they dont. You see most home school families follow a curriculum and sometimes its online based so the parents dont need that much knowledge. The knowledge is in the curriculum. Also they get together so maybe once a week they all get together at someones house who is big on science and they do that or music or art.

As for socialization they:

1. Have their own sports teams.
2. Organize field trips.
3. Have clubs like lego club.
4. Have dances, parties, and proms.

This is thru coops. HERE is the site for the one in my area and HERE is a statewide one. HERE is another just for homeschool sports teams.
The library I volunteered at in another time had, on its calendar, a weekly get-together titled "Secular Homeschoolers."

There's also a philosophy called "unschooling" where kids don't follow any lesson plans. Yeah, that's going to work really well out in the real world, isn't it?
  #86  
Old 05-13-2020, 10:13 PM
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Just "going and talking to" some local happy and successful homeschooling families wouldn't accomplish jack-shit in answering those questions, and I can hardly believe that you were so naive as to assume that it might.
No, I think it adds alot.

What is wrong with first hand information? What is wrong with learning about the topic from the ground up? What is wrong with maybe herself testing some homeschool students and finding out their knowledge levels? Again, some of these "sources" could well be her own students or persons in her own community. How hard is it to say to someone "can I talk to you about your homeschooling experience"?

And she didnt have to sit in her Harvard office either did she? Why couldnt she driven around the country and visited several homeschooling families? All it would have taken was to go on say Facebook and find some people who had both good and bad experiences with it.

Yes, I'm sure reading published stats and data has its place but I think it should only be a part of hands on research.
  #87  
Old 05-13-2020, 10:30 PM
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I must be misunderstanding you. Are you seriously suggesting that cherrypicking some personal narratives from homeschooled Harvard students, and Harvard-community students, would somehow be a valid rebuttal to Dr. Bartholet's research involving "published documents"?
.
That depends.

Maybe it would be a rebuttal, maybe it wont be. Maybe she could dig around and find some people who had bad home school experiences that could go along with her claims. Maybe she wont. She wont know until she tries.

Yes, I really believe that if one chooses to write papers, speak at events, and wish to have such research go into changing laws and public policies one should actually know the nuts and bolts about what they are talking about.

Thing is I have known all kinds of homeschooled families. For example, a truck driving family who did it because both were on the road. A family of professional bowlers who did it because they traveled with the pro bowling circuit. A gymnast who did it because she needed to be in a gym 6 hours a day. Several families who did it because the public schools in their inner city area were just so bad.

I've met just a couple whom I would say were doing it wrong. One Mom was into "un-schooling" (look that up) which I didnt buy into. Another because the parents were just paranoid. Another because the kids manipulated their parents to jump from public to private to homeschool, etc... But those were just a small percentage.

I have seen WAY MORE kids messed up by problems in the public schools for things like gang violence, extreme bullying, PTSD from sadistic gym teachers, sexual abuse and the schools doing nothing about it and such.

So again. Yes, I believe that if she wanted her research to be taken seriously to the point of wanting to make laws and public policy she needed to get out of the library and do some on the ground, one on one, research.
  #88  
Old 05-13-2020, 11:47 PM
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This is thru coops. HERE is the site for the one in my area and HERE is a statewide one. HERE is another just for homeschool sports teams.
I took a look at the statewide link as it actually links to various member groups. Only a single statewide group is listed, Christian Home Educators Confederation of Kansas (CHECK). I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that evolution isn't on the curriculum.

Next up, the local groups. In order:

Midwest Parent Educators. They are one of the member orgs of CHECK above and have a Christian focus in education.

Reno County Homeschool Connection Ltd. Their mission statement: "The Mission of Reno County Homeschool Connection is to join together Christian families and to assist each other in our efforts to homeschool our children. Our goal is to provide support, enrichment, and tools to ensure success in homeschooling through a variety of educational classes, events, field trips, and support groups while providing an environment for like-minded fellowship, and creating a connection within our community. We believe parents are ultimately accountable to God for the instruction and training of their children. Our desire is that our children will learn to think clearly, concisely, and critically with character reflecting that of our Lord Jesus Christ."

LOK Homeschool Group. Their purpose: "Our purpose to uplift and encourage each other as we share the common interest of “training our children the way they should go” and “teaching them” as the Lord God has instructed us."

Imagine Homeschool Community. This one looked like it might actually be inclusive, but their calendar is outdated so I'm guessing they are dead in the water.

E.D.U.C.A.T.E. This one also claims to be diverse. Is also dead in the water as their facebook page is even gone.

Smoky Valley Home Educators. "We, as parents, have joined together to promote stronger families, raise Godly children to stand against the world's standards, and encourage quality education for our children through moral support, friendship, and planned activities. We, as Christian parents, believe that we have a Biblical responsibility to do so according to the inspired Word of God as written in the Scriptures: Deut. 6:6-7, Prov. 22:6, 2 Tim. 3:16-17, Eph. 6:1-4, Isa. 54:13, 2 Tim. 2:15, Josh. 24:14 and 1 Cor. 14:33."

Cornerstone Family Schools. "Cornerstone Family Schools (CFS) is an independent educational organization dedicated to assisting Christian families who have chosen to train their children in a responsible manner primarily at home."

Holy Family Home Educators. The name says it all here.

Teaching Parents Association. Appears to be another name for the Kansas Home Educators association. They lead one of the biggest KS conferences for homeschooling called the "Kansas Home School Expo." The awesome Expo even has a children's program called the "Faith Builders Academy." While your children are being entertained at the FBA, you can attend the "Art of Marriage Seminar" where you can learn that "Marriage, the way God intended it to be, is a true art form." Oh, their Purpose page spends more time talking about things like the evil homos and transgender people than education.

By this point (and remember, those are listed in order, not cherry picked), I was getting nauseous, so I gave up. I think I've demonstrated that the vast majority of people are home schooling because they don't want their kids to learn evolution or hang out with "sinners."
  #89  
Old 05-14-2020, 12:27 AM
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And when somebody points out that that's a violation of children's rights and we ought to enact stricter laws to prevent it, what we get from conservatives is just a bunch of infuriated vindictive wattle-wobbling about how that damn "harpy" ought to be kicked out of her job for her communistic assault on the divine rights of parents to have complete control over their kids.
The issue I have is that throughout the thread, posters have failed to acknowledge that according to Supreme Court precedent fit parents have a fundamental right to the care, custody, and control of their minor children. It is a fundamental right, one of our basic freedoms.

I get the sense from many posters that this is not the case, that the state has an interest in communal raising of children so that they are supplied with state-approved levels of education.

And although it is unfortunately true that abuse of children does occur, in no other situation are free people required to prove the negative. I don't have to open my home to the police so that they can make sure I'm not manufacturing meth in the basement, nor do my wife and I have to appear at a state approved office to ensure that no domestic violence is happening----even though we know that many abusers keep their victims isolated.

That is completely opposite of the idea of freedom, that I am allowed to live my life unless presented with evidence, obtained in accordance with the Constitution, that I am doing something untoward.

I disagree with this idea that in a free country, I have to prove to this professor or to the government that I am doing a good job of raising my children.
  #90  
Old 05-14-2020, 01:10 AM
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The issue I have is that throughout the thread, posters have failed to acknowledge that according to Supreme Court precedent fit parents have a fundamental right to the care, custody, and control of their minor children. It is a fundamental right, one of our basic freedoms.
I'd love to see where you think this right is enumerated in the Constitution, what with you being an originalist and all. Hell, even Andy doesn't think there is precedent as he noted in Troxel v Granville:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonin Scalia
In my view, a right of parents to direct the upbringing of their children is among the "unalienable Rights" with which the Declaration of Independence proclaims "all men . . . are endowed by their Creator." And in my view that right is also among the "othe[r] [rights] retained by the people" which the Ninth Amendment says the Constitution's enumeration of rights "shall not be construed to deny or disparage." The Declaration of Independence, however, is not a legal prescription conferring powers upon the courts; and the Constitution's refusal to "deny or disparage" other rights is far removed from affirming any one of them, and even further removed from authorizing judges to identify what they might be, and to enforce the judges' list against laws duly enacted by the people. Consequently, while I would think it entirely compatible with the commitment to representative democracy set forth in the founding documents to argue, in legislative chambers or in electoral campaigns, that the State has no power to interfere with parents' authority over the rearing of their children, I do not believe that the power which the Constitution confers upon me as a judge entitles me to deny legal effect to laws that (in my view) infringe upon what is (in my view) that unenumerated right.

Only three holdings of this Court rest in whole or in part upon a substantive constitutional right of parents to direct the upbringing of their children[1]—two of them from an era rich in substantive due process holdings that have since been repudiated. See Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U. S. 390, 399, 401 (1923); Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U. S. 510, 534-535 (1925); Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U. S. 205, 232-233 (1972). Cf. West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish, 300 U. S. 379 (1937) (overruling Adkins v. Children's Hospital of D. C., 261 U. S. 525 (1923)). The sheer diversity of today's opinions persuades me that the theory of unenumerated parental rights underlying these three cases has small claim to stare decisis protection. A legal principle that can be thought to produce such diverse outcomes in the relatively simple case before us here is not a legal principle that has induced substantial reliance. While I would not now overrule those earlier cases (that has not been urged), neither would I extend the theory upon which they rested to this new context.
  #91  
Old 05-14-2020, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
That depends.

Maybe it would be a rebuttal, maybe it wont be. Maybe she could dig around and find some people who had bad home school experiences that could go along with her claims. Maybe she wont. She wont know until she tries.

Yes, I really believe that if one chooses to write papers, speak at events, and wish to have such research go into changing laws and public policies one should actually know the nuts and bolts about what they are talking about.

Thing is I have known all kinds of homeschooled families. For example, a truck driving family who did it because both were on the road. A family of professional bowlers who did it because they traveled with the pro bowling circuit. A gymnast who did it because she needed to be in a gym 6 hours a day. Several families who did it because the public schools in their inner city area were just so bad.
The thing is that although you may know different kinds of homeschooling families, you don't know all kinds. You don't know the ones who aren't homeschooling their kids at all, who simply don't send their kids to public or private school and when the neighbors report that the kids are not attending school , they tell the authorities that they are homeschooling. You wouldn't meet the Turpins whereever you meant the bowlers or the gymnasts. And you can't possibly know what "most" homeschoolers do as there is no way to find out as some states don't even require notification of homeshcooling and others require little or no regulation. If you're looking at a self-selected group that take the SATS and goes to college, and participates in social activities , homeschooling can look very good. But that's not looking at the whole group of people who claim to be homeschooling.

Last edited by doreen; 05-14-2020 at 06:38 AM.
  #92  
Old 05-14-2020, 07:38 AM
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Given the abysmal failure of many large school districts to provide an education for their students I suggest a presumptive ban on her employment by Harvard.
Everyone is presumptively banned from employment at Harvard. I don't think you grasp what the term means.

Quote:
No, you're right, she's suggesting a presumptive ban.
"Presumptive ban" isn't really a meaningful term in this context. It just means you need to demonstrate competence to take part in an activity, because society at large has a compelling interest in having it done to a certain minimum standard.

By this definition, you are banned from driving a car in your state. Have you found yourself unable to drive a car in your state?
  #93  
Old 05-14-2020, 08:59 AM
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I haven't seen any irresponsible homeschooling.
I know this is going to come as a big shock to you, Magiver, but many things that you personally haven't seen nonetheless exist in reality, and their existence is well documented.

This is one of the reasons why, when it comes to making public policy, it's a better idea to rely on the findings of well-informed researchers who have investigated the subject thoroughly than on the reflexive resentment of ignorant ideologues whining that said researchers ought to be fired without cause, for having dared to point out problems that said ideologues don't want to admit the existence of.
  #94  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:00 AM
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Everyone is presumptively banned from employment at Harvard. I don't think you grasp what the term means.
"Presumptive ban" isn't really a meaningful term in this context. It just means you need to demonstrate competence to take part in an activity, because society at large has a compelling interest in having it done to a certain minimum standard.

By this definition, you are banned from driving a car in your state. Have you found yourself unable to drive a car in your state?
Thanks HMS Irruncible, I've been trying to explain this in multiple posts now, but you did it better (and, let us hope, more effectively).
  #95  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:26 AM
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I think the courts would throw out any such mandate.
__________________
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge."
--Daniel J Boorstin
  #96  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
The issue I have is that throughout the thread, posters have failed to acknowledge that according to Supreme Court precedent fit parents have a fundamental right to the care, custody, and control of their minor children. It is a fundamental right, one of our basic freedoms.
DMC has already asked you to substantiate this claim. I'll just add that parents' undoubted rights to care and custody of minor children are not unlimited rights. You are not allowed to do anything you want with your kids just because you're the parent. Children have rights too, and those must be respected even when it involves limiting parental control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires
I disagree with this idea that in a free country, I have to prove to this professor or to the government that I am doing a good job of raising my children.
A fallacious argument. This issue isn't about "raising your children" in general, this is about providing specialized services that fulfill your children's guaranteed right to an education.

Do you also disagree with the idea that you should have to prove to the government that you're capable of doing a good job of providing medical care to your children before you're allowed to, say, perform an appendectomy on them?

Fuck no, right? Competent and effective medical treatment requires more than merely being a parent, it requires knowing what the hell you're doing. We don't just assume that parents can automatically be trusted to provide all the medical care that their children may need and have a right to get.

Similarly, competent and effective education also requires knowing what the hell you're doing, rather than merely being a parent. There's nothing tyrannical or "unfree" about requiring parents to demonstrate that they know what the hell they're doing before trusting them to be the sole providers of their children's education.
  #97  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:46 AM
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I disagree with this idea that in a free country, I have to prove to this professor or to the government that I am doing a good job of raising my children.
I believe children have a right to an education. And I am VERY pro-homeschooling. I think it should be available, and great pains taken to make sure that any regulation is not excessively burdensome. However, I also believe there needs to be a standard. If someone says "I want to homeschool my daughters and teach them only the things they need to be a traditional wife--nothing past basic reading and arithmetic--because I don't want them to be able to leave our community", would you consider that the right of the parent?

I know this is an extreme example, but if we disagree on this issue, I am not sure we can have any discussion about the details.
  #98  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:48 AM
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I may have missed it, but haven't seen anything so far in this thread about one of the "other" factors driving parents to homeschool their kids - the desire to avoid having them vaccinated.

As this site notes, homeschooled children mostly are exempt from vaccination requirements, and even in states that require they be immunized, they're lax about obtaining documentation from parents. So, adding to concerns about these kids receiving a complete education, there are worries that their health (and that of the general public) is being placed at risk.

Having followed this debate (mostly in the Wall St. Journal, whose op-ed articles and editorials are pro-home schooling), conservative support for this practice and of having taxpayers pay to send kids to private/religious schools seems to revolve around 1) worries about indoctrination of students (political and social) in public schools, 2) failures of public schools to educate pupils, and 3) a desire to stick it to teachers' unions.

*note that support for reform and accountability in home schooling is not confined to antis among left-wing academics. The organization whose webpage I linked to (and with which I am not very familiar) is pro-home schooling but also wants to prevent abuses in the practice (check out the board/staff page).
  #99  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:58 AM
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Should home schooling be banned?


No, home schooling should not be banned, but it must be regulated. The state has a compelling interest in education.

Domestic tranquility requires that all participants in our national enterprise share a common understanding of citizenship. This understanding is best achieved through public education. Since private schools and homeschooling exist as options they must convey the position of the state in matters of citizenship.

Homeschooling should require some form of licensing to ensure that a minimum curriculum is being followed and it should be coordinated with the local school system for uniform testing.
  #100  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:02 AM
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Maybe it would be a rebuttal, maybe it wont be. Maybe she could dig around and find some people who had bad home school experiences that could go along with her claims. Maybe she wont. She wont know until she tries. [...]

Yes, I believe that if she wanted her research to be taken seriously to the point of wanting to make laws and public policy she needed to get out of the library and do some on the ground, one on one, research.
Did you actually read Dr Bartholet's paper that I've now linked to multiple times? Do you see where she is extensively discussing large numbers of well-documented "bad home school experiences"?

In fact, do you have any idea how social-science research actually works? It's not just a matter of somebody having a speculative idea derived only from theoretical "book learning" with no connection to real-world experience unless they go out there in person and collect some anecdotes.

Dr. Bartholet knows far more about the actual "nuts and bolts" of homeschooling practices in the US than you do. The fact that she doesn't base her research on her own personal experiences of talking to homeschoolers (even though, like almost everybody else in the US and certainly like almost all educators, she doubtless does have those personal experiences) doesn't mean that she doesn't have the requisite reliable knowledge. It just means that she's not ignorant enough to confuse reliable social-science knowledge with personal anecdotes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasmine
I think the courts would throw out any such mandate.
What "mandate"? Are we going to have to explain again the difference between an actual legal ban on a practice and a "presumptive ban" on it?
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