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  #101  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:08 AM
Ruken is offline
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Originally Posted by Crane View Post
Domestic tranquility requires that all participants in our national enterprise share a common understanding of citizenship. This understanding is best achieved through public education. Since private schools and homeschooling exist as options they must convey the position of the state in matters of citizenship.
I find this notion creepy and more like something I would expect from China. Maybe I'm being wooshed here. Poe's law and all.

Last edited by Ruken; 05-14-2020 at 10:09 AM.
  #102  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:10 AM
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Kimstu - Thanks for the link, very informative.
  #103  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
I believe children have a right to an education. And I am VERY pro-homeschooling. I think it should be available, and great pains taken to make sure that any regulation is not excessively burdensome. However, I also believe there needs to be a standard. If someone says "I want to homeschool my daughters and teach them only the things they need to be a traditional wife--nothing past basic reading and arithmetic--because I don't want them to be able to leave our community", would you consider that the right of the parent?

I know this is an extreme example, but if we disagree on this issue, I am not sure we can have any discussion about the details.
That's just it, many of those who are home schooled are kept from public school specifically so that they do not have their children learning evil things like evolution, or really anything that would not be needed in order for them to properly fulfill their role in a Christian household.

There are plenty of other reasons to home school that can have the kid turn out as well or better than public school. I did have a friend whose parents were both college educators. They homeschooled him for the most part, though he did attend school a couple times a week for partial days for socializing and things like PE. He turned out great. I haven't talked to him in a well over a decade, but last i heard of him, he was doing something with Hall Effect Thrusters.

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Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
Wow. That's the most bigoted thing I've seen posted here in a long time.
Your post shows an epically remarkable level of ignorance that you chose to share.

Yes, as I said, everyone I knew growing up that was homeschooling for religious reasons is in pretty bad shape now. They are on public assistance and have serious drug problems. None of them have any sort of college education. I grew up in an extremely white, very Christian neighborhood. There were quite a number of people who kept their kids out of school, and all of them were far behind the rest of us academically. My friend got beat by one of my neighbor's fathers when, in 7th grade, he was surprised that his home schooled neighbor did not even know that the scientific consensus was that the earth was billions of years old.

Try for less of a knee jerk reaction next time, not everything you disagree with is bigotry.
  #104  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:55 AM
Manda JO is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
That's just it, many of those who are home schooled are kept from public school specifically so that they do not have their children learning evil things like evolution, or really anything that would not be needed in order for them to properly fulfill their role in a Christian household.
Right. But if someone thinks that that's okay--that a parent has the right to undereducate their child, if they chose--then really, we can't discuss details. Because that's a fundamental issue. I feel really strongly every child is entitled to enough of an education to make their own choices--I don't even care about evolution, specifically, but I think that they need to have the skills they need to be able to get a job, go to community college, live outside the community that raised them if they choose.
  #105  
Old 05-14-2020, 12:24 PM
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Right. But if someone thinks that that's okay--that a parent has the right to undereducate their child, if they chose--then really, we can't discuss details. Because that's a fundamental issue. I feel really strongly every child is entitled to enough of an education to make their own choices--I don't even care about evolution, specifically, but I think that they need to have the skills they need to be able to get a job, go to community college, live outside the community that raised them if they choose.
I'm in the camp that thinks that's not only not okay, that's child abuse.

And if all it impacted was the child, then I guess an argument can be made that since it came from your loins, it is your property to dispose of as you choose. I disagree with that argument, however, on the grounds that the child will not be under the parent's care and guardianship forever, and needs to not be a burden to society as an adult.

Just because you created a life doesn't actually make you capable of raising a child.
  #106  
Old 05-14-2020, 01:25 PM
Manda JO is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I'm in the camp that thinks that's not only not okay, that's child abuse.

And if all it impacted was the child, then I guess an argument can be made that since it came from your loins, it is your property to dispose of as you choose. I disagree with that argument, however, on the grounds that the child will not be under the parent's care and guardianship forever, and needs to not be a burden to society as an adult.

Just because you created a life doesn't actually make you capable of raising a child.
See, I disagree with that because I think a person is a person, not your property. I mean, I think a billionaire also has to educate their child, and I wouldn't approve of them raising their children as illiterate perpetual dependents based on the argument that they would be able to provide for them.
  #107  
Old 05-14-2020, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
DMC has already asked you to substantiate this claim. I'll just add that parents' undoubted rights to care and custody of minor children are not unlimited rights. You are not allowed to do anything you want with your kids just because you're the parent. Children have rights too, and those must be respected even when it involves limiting parental control.


A fallacious argument. This issue isn't about "raising your children" in general, this is about providing specialized services that fulfill your children's guaranteed right to an education.

Do you also disagree with the idea that you should have to prove to the government that you're capable of doing a good job of providing medical care to your children before you're allowed to, say, perform an appendectomy on them?

Fuck no, right? Competent and effective medical treatment requires more than merely being a parent, it requires knowing what the hell you're doing. We don't just assume that parents can automatically be trusted to provide all the medical care that their children may need and have a right to get.

Similarly, competent and effective education also requires knowing what the hell you're doing, rather than merely being a parent. There's nothing tyrannical or "unfree" about requiring parents to demonstrate that they know what the hell they're doing before trusting them to be the sole providers of their children's education.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troxel v. Granville, plurality opinion
The liberty interest at issue in this case-the interest of parents in the care, custody, and control of their childrenis perhaps the oldest of the fundamental liberty interests recognized by this Court. More than 75 years ago, in Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U. S. 390, 399, 401 (1923), we held that the "liberty" protected by the Due Process Clause includes the right of parents to "establish a home and bring up children" and "to control the education of their own." Two years later, in Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U. S. 510, 534-535 (1925), we again held that the "liberty of parents and guardians" includes the right "to direct the upbringing and education of children under their control." We explained in Pierce that "[t]he child is not the mere creature of the State; those who nurture him and direct his destiny have the right, coupled with the high duty, to recognize and prepare him for additional obligations." Id., at 535. We returned to the subject in Prince v. Massachusetts, 321 U. S. 158 (1944), and again confirmed that there is a constitutional dimension to the right of parents to direct the upbringing of their children. "It is cardinal with us that the custody, care and nurture of the child reside first in the parents, whose primary function and freedom include preparation for obligations the state can neither supply nor hinder." Id., at 166.

In subsequent cases also, we have recognized the fundamental right of parents to make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of their children. See, e. g., Stanley v. Illinois, 405 U. S. 645, 651 (1972) ("It is plain that the interest of a parent in the companionship, care, custody, and management of his or her children 'come[s] to this Court with a momentum for respect lacking when appeal is made to liberties which derive merely from shifting economic arrangements'" (citation omitted)); Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U. S. 205, 232 (1972) ("The history and culture of Western civilization reflect a strong tradition of parental concern for the nurture and upbringing of their children. This primary role of the parents in the upbringing of their children is now established beyond debate as an enduring American tradition"); Quilloin v. Walcott, 434 U. S. 246, 255 (1978) ("We have recognized on numerous occasions that the relationship between parent and child is constitutionally protected"); Parham v. J. R., 442 U. S. 584, 602 (1979) ("Our jurisprudence historically has reflected Western civilization concepts of the family as a unit with broad parental authority over minor children. Our cases have consistently followed that course"); Santosky v. Kramer, 455 U. S. 745, 753 (1982) (discussing "[t]he fundamental liberty interest of natural parents in the care, custody, and management of their child"); Glucksberg, supra, at 720 ("In a long line of cases, we have held that, in addition to the specific freedoms protected by the Bill of Rights, the 'liberty' specially protected by the Due Process Clause includes the righ[t] ... to direct the education and upbringing of one's children" (citing Meyer and Pierce)). In light of this extensive precedent, it cannot now be doubted that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment protects the fundamental right of parents to make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of their children.
This is the cite. DMX was asking why I disagreed with Scalia's dissent in that case, and I would be glad to debate it, but don't want to hijack the thread.

Not that I disagree with many of the concerns raised in the thread, but I would ask for a cite about this continuing assertion that a child has a "right to an education." Where does that come from and what does it entail? Must they read The Canterbury Tales? Is basic literacy enough? Do they need to be able to name the author of the Declaration of Independence? The First President of the United States?

I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but if we can't start from a common baseline of understanding each other, I'm afraid that the debate will not be very productive.
  #108  
Old 05-14-2020, 01:57 PM
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America is it's government


The uniqueness of America derives from it's government - the state. That uniqueness is communicated through the experiences citizens have interacting with the state and information communicated to citizens by the state.

The standards set for school curricula are the most basic form of state communication. It is those standards that determine how citizens define their government.
  #109  
Old 05-14-2020, 01:59 PM
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I think "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" involve the ability to be financially independent. For that, a child needs to be exposed to an education that at least makes the attempt to get them to the skill level they would need to be successful in a community college. And before you point out that many high school graduates don't meet that standard--that is absolutely true, and we need to fix that. But at least high school programs have that level of education as their goal.

Will you answer my question? If someone says "I want to keep my girls ignorant so they can't ever leave their men", would you consider that within a parent's rights?
  #110  
Old 05-14-2020, 02:05 PM
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"I want to keep my girls ignorant so they can't ever leave their men", would you consider that within a parent's rights?

Yes, that is the parents right because it deals with life style. However the state sets the standards for academic education.
  #111  
Old 05-14-2020, 02:48 PM
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I think "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" involve the ability to be financially independent. For that, a child needs to be exposed to an education that at least makes the attempt to get them to the skill level they would need to be successful in a community college. And before you point out that many high school graduates don't meet that standard--that is absolutely true, and we need to fix that. But at least high school programs have that level of education as their goal.

Will you answer my question? If someone says "I want to keep my girls ignorant so they can't ever leave their men", would you consider that within a parent's rights?
I would not. That is an abdication of the duties of a parent.

But I do not support having to prove to the government that I am not doing something illegal or improper.

I also fear that in a few years, if not now, people will argue that a statement to one's own's daughter that "The Bible says that your first and foremost duty as a woman is to support your husband, and that's what we believe in this family" will be considered as bad as what you stated.
  #112  
Old 05-14-2020, 02:49 PM
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I get that but he made the ridiculous claim that "Some homeschooled kids learn nothing but how to read the bible, pray and do chores-". Those kinds of comments really dont add anything to the conversation.
Well, I can say with certainty the 3 kids of the asshat who lived in housing at NOB Norfolk had his very downtrodden wife [abused, hm. long sleeves and turtle necks and heavy makeup in August in Norfolk VA ... nothing going on there folks] homeschool the kids and I heard them at their lessons outside one afternoon ... reading writing and arithmatics for the boys, and enough math to do grocery shopping for the girls. The reading was out of the bible, and it was the only book in the house. My neighbor Pat and I would share the coupons out of the newspaper with her because he refused to let her get a newspaper even just to get coupons ...

Now, 30 years later I wonder what happened with the kids. I forsaw with Pat the boys going into the Navy and the girl eitehr running away and being a pregnant single mom dependent upon a string of abusive boyfriends, ot restarting the abuse cycle for herself because she didn't know any better. Either way, she was probably hooked up with a man and pregnant at 16 ...
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  #113  
Old 05-14-2020, 02:57 PM
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See, I disagree with that because I think a person is a person, not your property. I mean, I think a billionaire also has to educate their child, and I wouldn't approve of them raising their children as illiterate perpetual dependents based on the argument that they would be able to provide for them.
Yeah, and as I said, I disagree with that argument as well, I'm just saying that it is the only thing I can even think of as a valid "justification" to allow parents to subject their children to substandard education. And I go on to point out that even in that case, society still has a compelling interest in preventing them from doing so.

Personally, I think that parents are among the least qualified people to raise children. They have no experience and many conflicts of interest.

Really, if you think about it, education has little to do with the parents. The provider of the education is the school, funded by society, and the beneficiaries of that education is the student and society. The parent's main role should be to minimize their interference.
  #114  
Old 05-14-2020, 03:07 PM
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aruvqan,

What you describe is the Conservative view of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is however life style and not the concern of the state.

Home schooling has the potential for abuse. That is not sufficient cause for it to be banned.
  #115  
Old 05-14-2020, 03:10 PM
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I would not. That is an abdication of the duties of a parent.

But I do not support having to prove to the government that I am not doing something illegal or improper.
So you would object to having a required curriculum and testing to meet minimum standards in home schools?

How can we tell if parents are abdicating their duties without ever checking in on the kids? Are we supposed to just take the parent's word for it that they are healthy, safe, and adequately educated?
Quote:
I also fear that in a few years, if not now, people will argue that a statement to one's own's daughter that "The Bible says that your first and foremost duty as a woman is to support your husband, and that's what we believe in this family" will be considered as bad as what you stated.
Yeah, see, that's why there is a difference between words and deeds. While the hypothetical statement that you made is pretty horrible and misogynistic, it would be a parent's right to tell their child this.

However, it would not be a parent's right to force that role upon their child by denying them access to an education that would allow them to be financially independent.
  #116  
Old 05-14-2020, 03:10 PM
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K9...,

Agreed!

So the state (society) should regulate homeschooling.
  #117  
Old 05-14-2020, 03:18 PM
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This is the cite. DMX was asking why I disagreed with Scalia's dissent in that case, and I would be glad to debate it, but don't want to hijack the thread.
I'm pretty sure your quote header says it all. Plurality opinion. I'm also pretty sure that you'll agree that courts and legal scholars aren't nearly as unanimous on the establishment of binding precedent given that it wasn't a majority opinion. Hell, even SCOTUS seems scared to clarify how to apply the Marks rule as they've had many opportunities to do so.
  #118  
Old 05-14-2020, 03:29 PM
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I'm pretty sure your quote header says it all. Plurality opinion. I'm also pretty sure that you'll agree that courts and legal scholars aren't nearly as unanimous on the establishment of binding precedent given that it wasn't a majority opinion. Hell, even SCOTUS seems scared to clarify how to apply the Marks rule as they've had many opportunities to do so.
First, everything it cites is binding precedent. And it was a plurality of four and the part I quoted was agree with by Thomas in his concurrence but he did not join the opinion because he would have applied strict scrutiny. So this is binding as it had 5 votes and all of those prior cases hold it to be beyond dispute.

The other justices didn't really argue with the holding, they just argued that it didn't apply to the Washington law specifically. Scalia had the only oddball view of it, and even he said that he agreed with it in substance, but as I said, I don't want to hijack the thread.
  #119  
Old 05-14-2020, 03:33 PM
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So you would object to having a required curriculum and testing to meet minimum standards in home schools?

How can we tell if parents are abdicating their duties without ever checking in on the kids? Are we supposed to just take the parent's word for it that they are healthy, safe, and adequately educated?
Again, how does the state determine that I am not beating my wife and preventing her from leaving the house? Do we have random home searches and invasion into private lives without cause just to ensure that nothing untoward is happening?
  #120  
Old 05-14-2020, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Again, how does the state determine that I am not beating my wife and preventing her from leaving the house? Do we have random home searches and invasion into private lives without cause just to ensure that nothing untoward is happening?
You are correct that much spousal abuse goes on without being detected or prosecuted.

I would not consider that a good argument for enabling child abuse.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 05-14-2020 at 03:55 PM.
  #121  
Old 05-14-2020, 03:56 PM
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First, everything it cites is binding precedent. And it was a plurality of four and the part I quoted was agree with by Thomas in his concurrence but he did not join the opinion because he would have applied strict scrutiny. So this is binding as it had 5 votes and all of those prior cases hold it to be beyond dispute.

The other justices didn't really argue with the holding, they just argued that it didn't apply to the Washington law specifically. Scalia had the only oddball view of it, and even he said that he agreed with it in substance, but as I said, I don't want to hijack the thread.
He and everyone else seems to reference Pierce, but since that was about public vs private schools and not home schooling, I'm not sure I see how this holds. Either way, I'll agree to not continue this hijack unless you wish to claim that Troxel allows people to ignore their childrens' education completely, which you haven't appeared to do.
  #122  
Old 05-14-2020, 04:20 PM
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Will you answer my question? If someone says "I want to keep my girls ignorant so they can't ever leave their men", would you consider that within a parent's rights?
I just can't get over people like this, and here's why: How do they expect those women to support their children if their husbands died, or became disabled?
  #123  
Old 05-14-2020, 04:23 PM
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Will you answer my question? If someone says "I want to keep my girls ignorant so they can't ever leave their men", would you consider that within a parent's rights?
I just can't get over people like this, and here's why: How do they expect those women to support their children if their husbands died, or became disabled?

or, for that matter, if the HUSBAND decides he wants to leave?

(Oh, wait, that was because she couldn't keep him happy, blah blah blah)
  #124  
Old 05-14-2020, 05:18 PM
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Again, how does the state determine that I am not beating my wife and preventing her from leaving the house? Do we have random home searches and invasion into private lives without cause just to ensure that nothing untoward is happening?
I'm generally against homeschooling since every kid I known who's gone through it has been weird even much later in life. Further my sister's kids were home schooled are crazy behind mine at the same age. Her eldest did ok but the second oldest can read entering first grade and the youngest can't dress himself at 4. I think the busier she got the more she let the home schooling slide. Now that her oldest is in third grade my sister finally gave up because the math was too hard for her.

That being said I'm against state intervention in general.

What you're proposing Ultra is basically once a home schooled kid fails the GRE then we lock the parents up for abuse and given that we would then know they were abused for 18 years it should probably be a life sentence. Possibly at 18 we make every new adult take a test in the country. The problem here is that first we'd have a bunch of adults that no longer had parents and then we would have to educate them to the minimum standard.

That seems like a sub-optimal way to do it both for the parents and the children. An annual test for all children seems more fair and would serve the purpose of allowing the DOE to evaluate the education level of the country. We could target problem schools, school districts, or home schools and either get them the help they need or remove the children prior to too much damage being done to them.
  #125  
Old 05-14-2020, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
I just can't get over people like this, and here's why: How do they expect those women to support their children if their husbands died, or became disabled?

or, for that matter, if the HUSBAND decides he wants to leave?

(Oh, wait, that was because she couldn't keep him happy, blah blah blah)
The people that believe these things would have no problem answering your questions.

The answer to your first question is "Trust in God and He will provide."

The answer to your second question is "If you had been a better wife, he would have stayed."
  #126  
Old 05-14-2020, 07:18 PM
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I'm generally against homeschooling since every kid I known who's gone through it has been weird even much later in life. Further my sister's kids were home schooled are crazy behind mine at the same age. Her eldest did ok but the second oldest can read entering first grade and the youngest can't dress himself at 4. I think the busier she got the more she let the home schooling slide. Now that her oldest is in third grade my sister finally gave up because the math was too hard for her.

That being said I'm against state intervention in general.

What you're proposing Ultra is basically once a home schooled kid fails the GRE then we lock the parents up for abuse and given that we would then know they were abused for 18 years it should probably be a life sentence. Possibly at 18 we make every new adult take a test in the country. The problem here is that first we'd have a bunch of adults that no longer had parents and then we would have to educate them to the minimum standard.

That seems like a sub-optimal way to do it both for the parents and the children. An annual test for all children seems more fair and would serve the purpose of allowing the DOE to evaluate the education level of the country. We could target problem schools, school districts, or home schools and either get them the help they need or remove the children prior to too much damage being done to them.
Why would you arrest the parents if the child fails the GRE? Teachers or principals or the school board don't get arrested when they fail to properly educate children.
  #127  
Old 05-14-2020, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
So you would object to having a required curriculum and testing to meet minimum standards in home schools?

How can we tell if parents are abdicating their duties without ever checking in on the kids? Are we supposed to just take the parent's word for it that they are healthy, safe, and adequately educated?
Ok, lets say we do require annual testing for homeschoolers. And if they fall short they be required to put their kids in a regular school.

Believe it or not I'm ok with that. Like others I dont want to hear about kids falling thru the cracks and not getting an education.

But ONLY if regular kids in the public schools also are required to take the same tests AND they can be held back in grade if they fail AND if many kids in such a school fail the school can get into trouble.

Would that be ok?

Last edited by Urbanredneck; 05-14-2020 at 08:35 PM.
  #128  
Old 05-14-2020, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by aruvqan View Post
Well, I can say with certainty the 3 kids of the asshat who lived in housing at NOB Norfolk had his very downtrodden wife [abused, hm. long sleeves and turtle necks and heavy makeup in August in Norfolk VA ... nothing going on there folks] homeschool the kids and I heard them at their lessons outside one afternoon ... reading writing and arithmatics for the boys, and enough math to do grocery shopping for the girls. The reading was out of the bible, and it was the only book in the house. My neighbor Pat and I would share the coupons out of the newspaper with her because he refused to let her get a newspaper even just to get coupons ...

Now, 30 years later I wonder what happened with the kids. I forsaw with Pat the boys going into the Navy and the girl eitehr running away and being a pregnant single mom dependent upon a string of abusive boyfriends, ot restarting the abuse cycle for herself because she didn't know any better. Either way, she was probably hooked up with a man and pregnant at 16 ...
Thing is I can quote just as many kids who went to public schools and had just as bad outcomes.

For example this is the last weeks of school for some kids. Many are failing because they havent done a lick of schoolwork either before or after quarantine.

BUT, now, there parents are calling up the school asking how their kids can avoid an F? Now the supposed "seniors" find themselves short on credits. I'm not talking 1 or 2 but half the class has F's. And thats in an easy, watered down curriculum.

What they do come to school they always are roaming the halls, skipping class, causing fights, arguing with teachers, etc...

And quite frankly this is typical school for I'd bet about a quarter of American schools.

How is that better than the small percentage of the 3% of kids who are homeschooled?
  #129  
Old 05-14-2020, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Not that I disagree with many of the concerns raised in the thread, but I would ask for a cite about this continuing assertion that a child has a "right to an education." Where does that come from and what does it entail?
Here's the American Bar Association's take on the current status of the "right to education" concept in the various states. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (which the US voted to approve in the UN, although AFAICT that isn't considered in US jurisprudence to obligate the US to treat its provisions as law) states that
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Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit. Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace. Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children."

Last edited by Kimstu; 05-14-2020 at 08:46 PM.
  #130  
Old 05-14-2020, 08:49 PM
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Did you actually read Dr Bartholet's paper that I've now linked to multiple times? Do you see where she is extensively discussing large numbers of well-documented "bad home school experiences"?

In fact, do you have any idea how social-science research actually works? It's not just a matter of somebody having a speculative idea derived only from theoretical "book learning" with no connection to real-world experience unless they go out there in person and collect some anecdotes.

Dr. Bartholet knows far more about the actual "nuts and bolts" of homeschooling practices in the US than you do. The fact that she doesn't base her research on her own personal experiences of talking to homeschoolers (even though, like almost everybody else in the US and certainly like almost all educators, she doubtless does have those personal experiences) doesn't mean that she doesn't have the requisite reliable knowledge. It just means that she's not ignorant enough to confuse reliable social-science knowledge with personal anecdotes.
Well you can do what you want and she can write papers the way she wants but I still feel one should do a little hands on investigation of the topic outside of just reading papers. To me "anecdotes" is part of research.

But then I'm more a hands on person. Sure when I fix or make something I look it up first but then I apply my knowledge in my work.

She is an academic. She writes papers for a living. "Publish or Perish" in her world. She shouldnt be looked at as an "expert" or to have influence in law of public policy.
  #131  
Old 05-14-2020, 08:59 PM
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But I do not support having to prove to the government that I am not doing something illegal or improper.
I repeat my question to you from an earlier post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimstu
Do you also disagree with the idea that you should have to prove to the government that you're capable of doing a good job of providing medical care to your children before you're allowed to, say, perform an appendectomy on them?
Taxpayer-funded professional education, like taxpayer-funded professional medical care, is provided for children by society precisely because we can't take it for granted that parents in general are capable of performing these specialized services on their own.

Sure, most parents can and do successfully teach their children lots of useful things, just as most parents can and do successfully handle innumerable minor medical problems (scrapes, rashes, digestive upsets etc.) in their children. But that doesn't mean that we should automatically grant parents the authority to be their children's sole healthcare providers, or their sole educators, if we have no idea whether they're adequately qualified to take on that job.
  #132  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:14 PM
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She is an academic. She writes papers for a living. "Publish or Perish" in her world. She shouldnt be looked at as an "expert" or to have influence in law of public policy.
You seem to be unaware that Dr. Bartholet is a lawyer who served for years as staff counsel for the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, helped found and for years directed the public-interest Legal Action Center in NYC, and is a founder and director of Harvard's Child Advocacy Program, whose mission is precisely to protect the interests of children in "the world of policy and practice" as well as via training law students in the relevant issues.

It is blindingly obvious that Dr. Bartholet knows at least several orders of magnitude more than you do about all aspects of "law of public policy" pertaining to children's education and the defense of children's rights. For you to disparage her qualifications, or try to deny her status as an expert in this area, doesn't demonstrate anything but your own ignorance and lack of competence to make such judgements.
  #133  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:33 PM
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I'm not sure if any of you have heard of that kid in India who predicted the coronavirus pandemic back in August 2019. He's gained quite a lot of attention because of that
and when I started to check out more of his channel, I found out he was homeschooled, his younger sister also. They are both very bright and lovely human beings. You may
have your own judgments on them but the overall consensus from their feedback is that people think these kids are good for their country/world and we need more children to be like them.

Here's a specific video of the mother explaining why she decided to homeschool her kids...very good answer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz5ZO1Ruj1Y

one great point I wanted to mention was the part when she explains that on a written test, one of the questions was to choose 1 of 2 possible answers: Is your face circle or square? He X'd out both those boxes and put in his answer as Oval. The teacher put a giant red X on it and failed him. The mother says 'so you don't want my child to be able to think?' ...the school basically only cares if you follow the rules and choose the options they give you. This immediately points out one of the flaws of today's school system. Your ability to be obedient and follow rules supercedes your competency level and ability to think. That's why many geniuses have to do things "outside of the box" to get it done in this world.

There was also a story about Greg Smith, the 10 year old boy who went to College.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reSq4mxFVdQ

When asked by Oprah what was it that his parents did to help him develop so fast or become so smart...she thought maybe they used flash cards lol. He said, the biggest thing was that they 'facilitated my needs'. Schools are systematic and meant to educate a large number of people over a generalized approach and curriculum. While there are many great things about the school system, one of it's weaknesses is the ability to meet the needs of the individual. They do not specialize or cater to each unique individual's specific needs. It was not meant to do that. Of course, we are heading into times where we can do it now and soon, that's how everyone will be educated.

Last edited by cornflakes2; 05-14-2020 at 09:35 PM.
  #134  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:33 PM
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Thing is I can quote just as many kids who went to public schools and had just as bad outcomes.
Given that there are about twenty times more public-schooled than homeschooled children in the US, the fact that you're claiming "just as many" failure stories about public schools as aruvqan claimed about homeschooling makes the performance of homeschooling look even worse.

You argue that homeschooling produces "just as many" abysmal failures, in absolute numbers, as public schooling with only five percent as many kids? Not impressive.

(See, Urbanredneck, this is one reason why in responsible social-science research, comparing meaningful quantitative studies is considered much more valid and informative than just throwing around anecdotes of your own personal experience. Neither your nor aruvqan's personal-experience anecdotes provide jack-shit in the way of reliable information about how successful homeschooling is overall.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck
Ok, lets say we do require annual testing for homeschoolers. And if they fall short they be required to put their kids in a regular school.

Believe it or not I'm ok with that. Like others I dont want to hear about kids falling thru the cracks and not getting an education.

But ONLY if regular kids in the public schools also are required to take the same tests AND they can be held back in grade if they fail AND if many kids in such a school fail the school can get into trouble.

Would that be ok?
IMO, absolutely. I'm all for transparency and accountability in all forms of education.

Likewise, I think it's perfectly reasonable to require all people tasked with children's basic education, whether they're professional schoolteachers or homeschooling parents, to meet some kind of qualifications for doing that job before we just let them go at it. I'm not saying that homeschooling parents should have to obtain official teacher certification, but they ought to provide some evidence of their ability to do the job beyond merely saying "I've decided to homeschool, bye-bye educational accountability".
  #135  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:45 PM
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Likewise, I think it's perfectly reasonable to require all people tasked with children's basic education, whether they're professional schoolteachers or homeschooling parents, to meet some kind of qualifications for doing that job before we just let them go at it. I'm not saying that homeschooling parents should have to obtain official teacher certification, but they ought to provide some evidence of their ability to do the job beyond merely saying "I've decided to homeschool, bye-bye educational accountability".
I think there is a difference between general education and education that requires a certain accountability of technical and expertise accreditation.

For example, you wouldn't want a self-taught uncertified builder making buildings
and bridges for you. In these sort of tasks, you should definitely have to receive
qualifications and testing to prove your competency is more than sufficient to meet the safety standards.

But I don't think you need accountability and testing if you want to teach your kids about animals, how to do paper mache, read books, how to play musical instruments, or draw etc. There are many things you can learn and be educated in that shouldn't require these kinds of standardized tests to be accountable.

We have standardized testings for accountability in things like driver's license, first aid ...... but we don't have it for telling people how to live life, how to enjoy themselves....even how to parent....there are no tests that tell you if you are able or unable to do such things per se (maybe there should be for parenting?).

Last edited by cornflakes2; 05-14-2020 at 09:48 PM.
  #136  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:52 PM
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All right...

ISTM that many people's positions at least in this thread are hard locked and entrenched. Which is a pity because this could have been a good discussion and critique of where does that professor gets things right or wrong.

It is curious, how some of the arguers here seem to themselves have met or known of no succesful homeschooler, ever, and at the same time how utter is the incredulity of those on the other side about that.

That said...

My position is as with everything that is a right: it is not absolutely unrestricted or unlimited. And by this I mean both the human right to reach adulthood enabled to function well in the greater society and economy as a free and independent person, and the human right to be be brought up being cared for and protected and given good life value lessons by your family.

And yes, notice the way I word it they are the child's rights, not the parent's. To me, a good education and good family upbringing includes ending up with an adult who is ready to go his or her own way, in terms of health, formal knowledge and moral compass. Even if that way is not the parent's. Or if it is, because it is so freely chosen in an informed decision.

But again, no right is 100% absolute and unrestricted. You can't "pursue happiness" at the expense of abusing others, liberty is not license to act without regard for anyone else. You are free to practice your religion but not if it involves human sacrifice or temple prostitution, and free to keep and bear arms but I suggest you don't raise your gat to the ready in the general direction of the police. You are free to travel but actually operating a motor vehicle in a public road means getting a permit; you have a right to vote, once per election, in your precinct of residence, IF you comply with the requirements. Etc.

So should alternatives to public education exist? Of course. Should alternatives to organized institutional education exist? Heck yeah. Should homeschooling exist? Yes.

Should it be "no questions asked, period?" No, but making people create a replica of the public school inside their house is impractical. It could rather be that at the point where their age cohort would reach Grade, Middle and High School completion, have the homestudents submit to the same standardized test as schoolgoers. Sweeten the pot, make it so that satisfactory progress by the general standard confers some benefit.

No, I don't think making parents prove that they are trained to certified teacher standards would fly. However... those pre-packaged curricula and the organized schooling cooperative templates? DO vet those, at least to prevent fly-by-nights ripping off the parents. It doesn't even have to be the state, it can even be an association of private education that can look at it and say "ok, not a ripoff".

More important to me, though, make it perfectly clear and don't back down on that the standardized tests and college or vo/tech school admissions standards will NOT be "adjusted". That nobody will be able to sue the State University to just waive the requirement for Intro to American History because the course does not give the history THEY taught. Young Earth Creationist, Flat Earther? You can't waive the Physics or Bio requirements. Etc.

(and of course... unvaccinated? You. Are. Not. Entering. This. School.)

Last edited by JRDelirious; 05-14-2020 at 09:54 PM.
  #137  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:00 PM
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But I don't think you need accountability and testing if you want to teach your kids about animals, how to do paper mache, read books, how to play musical instruments, or draw etc. There are many things you can learn and be educated in that shouldn't require these kinds of standardized tests to be accountable.
Sure, but what I said was "tasked with children's basic education". Meaning, the people who are responsible for providing the subject-matter of compulsory education: i.e., the knowledge and skills that you need to demonstrate to get promoted into the next grade, and ultimately to get your high school diploma.

I'm not arguing that parents should have to demonstrate any kind of official qualification in order to teach kids hobbies or games, early-childhood skills like reading and counting, or other everyday-type activities. But if you're setting yourself up as the sole provider of the years of official essential schooling that your kids are legally required to obtain, then you really ought to be able to show that you're up to the job.
  #138  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:07 PM
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I do not have time to look it up now but, IIRC, homeschooling stats are pretty good and, overall, those students seem to do better on tests than kids in other schooling situations.

Doubtless you can find exceptions...there always are some, but overall they do well. And I say that as someone who finds the whole notion super creepy.

I will say I think part of being in school is the socialization aspect. And that can be brutal but that is part of what helps us once we are in the real world. We need that thicker skin to navigate many day-to-day things. Anecdoatal but my company hired a guy who was homeschooled. Clearly he was a bright, intelligent guy. Quite possibly the smartest person in the office (certainly up there). His social skills were in the basement though. Just terrible. He tried but never fit in which ultimately led to his dismissal. To be sure some people who go to public schools end up the same way but I have that nagging feeling that if this guy had been able to socialize more when growing up this would not have been a problem. But yeah...one personal experience is not a good data point.

I know some homeschooling parents do make sure their kid gets plenty of socialization. It can certainly be done if they want to.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 05-14-2020 at 10:08 PM.
  #139  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:28 PM
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I do not have time to look it up now but, IIRC, homeschooling stats are pretty good and, overall, those students seem to do better on tests than kids in other schooling situations.

Doubtless you can find exceptions...there always are some, but overall they do well.
See post #43, and the often-linked Bartholet article, for reasons to be cautious about assuming that test results for the subset of homeschoolers who choose to participate in standardized testing are representative of the "overall" performance of homeschooled students as a whole.
Quote:
Homeschooling proponents make two primary arguments in defense of the current regime, one factual and one legal. The factual claim is that homeschooled children do as well as or better than public school children, including on standard educational measures like college admission tests. The legal claim is that parent rights are and ought to be absolute.

The factual claim is largely based on flawed advocacy research that is not true social science. We have no way of identifying, based on existing information, the total group of homeschoolers, the percentage whose progress is assessed by some objective testing system, or the percentage who graduate from high school or college, and thus no way of knowing how homeschoolers do on average. The only methodologically sound social science indicates that even the atypically privileged and successful subset of homeschoolers who graduate high school, take college tests, and attend college have some significant problems as compared to non- homeschoolers.
  #140  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:34 PM
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All right...

ISTM that many people's positions at least in this thread are hard locked and entrenched. Which is a pity because this could have been a good discussion and critique of where does that professor gets things right or wrong.
I dont wish to quote all of your writing just to say I agree with most of it.

I am ok with having some sort of homeschooling oversite. Parents should be required to show things like curriculum to some authority (not sure who but I think its their local school districts officials). I am also ok with annual testing PROVIDED they also test the public school kids and if the homeschool parents can be held accountable, so should parents and schools of regular kids.

As I said earlier this is technically the last week of school in our area. Dozens of kids at my wifes schools have failing grades because they refused to do any work or even attend classes and now are reaching out to the teachers for help. The schools often pencil whip their grades so they can move on. I feel that if they were forced to pass an annual test that would not happen (not that their have been many cases of cheating on standardized tests).
  #141  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:34 PM
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Sure, but what I said was "tasked with children's basic education". Meaning, the people who are responsible for providing the subject-matter of compulsory education: i.e., the knowledge and skills that you need to demonstrate to get promoted into the next grade, and ultimately to get your high school diploma.

I'm not arguing that parents should have to demonstrate any kind of official qualification in order to teach kids hobbies or games, early-childhood skills like reading and counting, or other everyday-type activities. But if you're setting yourself up as the sole provider of the years of official essential schooling that your kids are legally required to obtain, then you really ought to be able to show that you're up to the job.
agreed. I should also note that parents rely on the curriculum or educational materials they are using to teach their children at home, so there is a two part factor in this: a) the parents ability to teach, b) the quality of the educational material being used

or in layman's analogy....the transportation of the payload and the payload itself.

Also, homeschooling doesn't have to just be limited to parents. You could certainly have certified teachers or coaches that can visit the home for sessions or via online. I'm sure is an industry or occupations where you can make a full-time living off of this type of need.

With the advent of A.I., it will become even easier to homeschool and I'm almost certain that unless it is by LAW, most students in the future will not even attend schools anymore because better methods of education will develop (unless of course schools themselves improve which is what people want and their displeasure of it is why they are choosing to homeschool).
  #142  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:52 PM
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I just can't get over people like this, and here's why: How do they expect those women to support their children if their husbands died, or became disabled?
get married to the next one waiting in line .....
  #143  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:53 PM
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Why would you arrest the parents if the child fails the GRE? Teachers or principals or the school board don't get arrested when they fail to properly educate children.
I thought you were making a comparison to abuse. When we discover parents are beating their children we put them in jail. When we discover parente are abusing their home schooled children by withholding knowledge we should put them in jail too. Since you posit we can't look in to discover the abuses until they are an adult that means we have to wait until the abuse has gone on long enough to be severe.
  #144  
Old 05-14-2020, 11:10 PM
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I thought you were making a comparison to abuse. When we discover parents are beating their children we put them in jail. When we discover parente are abusing their home schooled children by withholding knowledge we should put them in jail too. Since you posit we can't look in to discover the abuses until they are an adult that means we have to wait until the abuse has gone on long enough to be severe.
Whoa...now we are really venturing off into dangerous territory.
If a parent can be jailed for abuse as in withholding knowledge....then what about putting parents in jail for stuffing their kids minds with bad knowledge (ie. brainwashing them with false beliefs, unpopular views, etc).

Then what about putting most of the mainstream media news in jail for giving us misinformation and lies or as Trump would put it, "fake news"?

Where does it end? Everyone would have to look into the mirror and see a criminal because we all are if that is the standard.

If a child grows up in a christian or muslim household...and you are an atheist...would you then say that parents should be jailed for brainwashing their children? That would technically be abuse according to you no?

Last edited by cornflakes2; 05-14-2020 at 11:13 PM.
  #145  
Old 05-14-2020, 11:25 PM
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Whoa...now we are really venturing off into dangerous territory.
If a parent can be jailed for abuse as in withholding knowledge
What do you mean, "if"? Parents definitely can be jailed for abuse due to what's called "educational neglect", or failing to provide for their child’s basic needs with regards to schooling and education.

You may be the most loving and tender parent in the world, but if you take your kid out of school and don't provide them with an alternative form of education that meets your state's educational requirements, you may be on the hook for educational neglect. That's not some kind of hypothetical "dangerous territory", that's the real-life situation about compulsory education for children.
  #146  
Old 05-15-2020, 06:29 AM
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But that doesn't mean that we should automatically grant parents the authority
You have it backwards. Nobody is talking about granting parents any authority; we're talking about taking it away.
  #147  
Old 05-15-2020, 07:24 AM
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Make the ‘teacher’ parent pass a minimal competency test, teachers have to, so should parents. Not the same qualifications, but basic minimal. Maybe you can home school an 8 yr old but are out of your depth at 13yrs.

And the kid has to pass a standardized test, end of each year. Again, minimal basics only, but they must pass.

There are qualifications for teachers and benchmarks for grades in all schooling systems for good reason. There is no good reason to NOT have them for homeschooled children as well.
  #148  
Old 05-15-2020, 07:43 AM
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Ok, lets say we do require annual testing for homeschoolers. And if they fall short they be required to put their kids in a regular school.

Believe it or not I'm ok with that. Like others I dont want to hear about kids falling thru the cracks and not getting an education.

But ONLY if regular kids in the public schools also are required to take the same tests AND they can be held back in grade if they fail AND if many kids in such a school fail the school can get into trouble.

Would that be ok?
Kids are tested, and schools are held accountable in public schools. If you are arguing that there should be more tests and more accountability, then sure, find the cracks and fill them in. Personally, I think that there is too much testing in public schools. They are not taking an annual test, they are taking several tests a year. This leads to teaching to the test, rather than providing a well rounded education.

I'm also not a huge fan of the grade system in general. If you do well in a few subjects, but poorly in others, then it makes little sense to hold them back and make them repeat the material that they know, and it also makes even less sense to send them on with gaps in their knowledge. Schools would be much better off having more modular classes, where if you fail the module, you only have to repeat a month or two of a specific subject, rather than a whole grade if in k-6, or at least a whole year in a subject for JHS and HS.

As far as schools being in trouble, I have not seen many times when the "punishment" either levied or proposed, was actually good for the students. It may hurt teachers and administrators who failed the students, but it usually hurts the students even more. If you have proposals to hold educators and administrators accountable, then I'm more than willing to consider them. But also, keep in mind that a school can only do as well as its students. If you are a school in a poor neighborhood with parents who do not have time or motivation to be engaged in their child's education, they are not going to do as well as that school in the upper middle class neighborhood. That's not really the school's fault, but you would punish the school for it.

I would put it more as, we do testing to find which schools need help to provide a proper education to their students, and the best ways to offer that help. Sometimes that may mean firing ineffective teachers or administrators, certainly rooting out any corrupt practices, but it may often mean giving the school more resources. Most punishments I have seen for failing testing involves cutting funding to the school, which is the worst thing you can do to the students.


Of course, in this day of Covid, schooling at home looks to be around for a while, but I would still consider there to be a big difference between distance learning where you follow a curriculum and lessons put online by your school, and actual homeschooling, where your guardians are your primary educators.
  #149  
Old 05-15-2020, 07:59 AM
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Make the ‘teacher’ parent pass a minimal competency test, teachers have to, so should parents. Not the same qualifications, but basic minimal. Maybe you can home school an 8 yr old but are out of your depth at 13yrs.

And the kid has to pass a standardized test, end of each year. Again, minimal basics only, but they must pass.

There are qualifications for teachers and benchmarks for grades in all schooling systems for good reason. There is no good reason to NOT have them for homeschooled children as well.
Teacher tests, qualifications, and benchmarks are for public school teachers. Nobody ever required these of me. They're mostly useless box-checking to provide a barrier to entry to the profession, as they typically aren't associated with better student outcomes.
  #150  
Old 05-15-2020, 08:15 AM
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lets look at this question from the other direction. Why should you have the right to neglect your children by not giving them the tools they need to survive as adults in the real world? As a society, why should we allow parents to deliberately saddle society with adults who have no useful skills, cannot think logically and rationally, and who struggle socially? What benefit does allowing this behavior provide to our society?

I propose that home schooling should only be allowed if the parents consistently demonstrate that this is not what they are doing.

But what about religious freedom? Well, whatever your beliefs, if you decided not to feed your kids because its what god would have wanted, you'd get a call from social services. If you decide you don't want your kids to have the skills necessary to sustain themselves as adults, that's also child abuse.
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