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  #151  
Old 05-15-2020, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
I think it should be banned. Most parents aren't equipped to teach all of the academics. Plus the kids need to socialize with other kids and get exposed to ideas other than what their parents. Personally, I've always thought the motivation for a lot of home schooling parents is to keep their kids away from those that aren't just like them, and I don't think that's healthy.
Not all home schooling is done by parents; it's also done by tutors who visit. Some home schooling can also come in the form of families getting together for small group learning, though I don't know if that's very common. Probably not a surprise that home schooling is often done for religious reasons but that's not always the case home schooling will be a thing in the future for sure.

There's nothing at all with home schooling in principle. My concern is that home schooling may end up taking away resources from public education - all children have a right to have access to a quality education. We as a community have a duty to make sure that they become educated.
  #152  
Old 05-15-2020, 09:21 AM
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Asahi,

Given that home schooling is OK in principle, how do we ensure that it avoids the problems identified by Bartholet?
  #153  
Old 05-15-2020, 09:41 AM
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Asahi,

A way to avoid taking resources away from public schools is to integrate homeschooling into the system. Provide funding to school systems for homeschooling support. Require homeschooled students to register at a public school and to participate in some testing for their grade level.

The gorilla in the room is the teaching of social norms. Our current inclusive society requires acceptance of all races and life styles as normal. Domestic tranquility requires the mutual acceptance of all life styles and that is taught in public schools. The purpose of some homeschooling is to reject specific life styles. Can that be tolerated in homeschooling and, if not, can it be controlled?
  #154  
Old 05-15-2020, 12:04 PM
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I think the courts would throw out any such mandate.
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What "mandate"? Are we going to have to explain again the difference between an actual legal ban on a practice and a "presumptive ban" on it?
Probably.
  #155  
Old 05-15-2020, 12:19 PM
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But that doesn't mean that we should automatically grant parents the authority
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You have it backwards. Nobody is talking about granting parents any authority; we're talking about taking it away.
Would you raise have the same objection had her post read "default to a public policy of no mandatory government participation based on a presumption of parental competence" instead of "grant parents the authority?"
  #156  
Old 05-15-2020, 12:24 PM
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Make the ‘teacher’ parent pass a minimal competency test, teachers have to, so should parents. Not the same qualifications, but basic minimal. Maybe you can home school an 8 yr old but are out of your depth at 13yrs.

And the kid has to pass a standardized test, end of each year. Again, minimal basics only, but they must pass.

There are qualifications for teachers and benchmarks for grades in all schooling systems for good reason. There is no good reason to NOT have them for homeschooled children as well.
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Originally Posted by Ruken View Post
Teacher tests, qualifications, and benchmarks are for public school teachers. Nobody ever required these of me. They're mostly useless box-checking to provide a barrier to entry to the profession, as they typically aren't associated with better student outcomes.
This calls for a "Cite?"
  #157  
Old 05-15-2020, 12:30 PM
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Asahi,

A way to avoid taking resources away from public schools is to integrate homeschooling into the system. Provide funding to school systems for homeschooling support. Require homeschooled students to register at a public school and to participate in some testing for their grade level.

The gorilla in the room is the teaching of social norms. Our current inclusive society requires acceptance of all races and life styles as normal. Domestic tranquility requires the mutual acceptance of all life styles and that is taught in public schools. The purpose of some homeschooling is to reject specific life styles. Can that be tolerated in homeschooling and, if not, can it be controlled?
I agree that this is one reason that people insist on homeschooling, but I can't argue with those who say that they can do better than public schools. Personally, as long as they agree to pay the taxes for public schooling, I really don't care if someone decides they want to bring in tutors provided that children can pass the same requirements as everyone else.

Parents are going to indoctrinate children regardless of where they're schooled. As long as they're exposed to the content, that's fine with me. Eventually, adults will decide for themselves whether to believe the Universe was created 6000 years ago in 7 days, or if it all began some other way.
  #158  
Old 05-15-2020, 01:43 PM
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Kids are tested, and schools are held accountable in public schools. If you are arguing that there should be more tests and more accountability, then sure, find the cracks and fill them in. Personally, I think that there is too much testing in public schools. They are not taking an annual test, they are taking several tests a year. This leads to teaching to the test, rather than providing a well rounded education.....
And school boards can be tossed out in a election- disgruntled parents have done that very thing.
  #159  
Old 05-15-2020, 03:14 PM
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If a child grows up in a christian or muslim household...and you are an atheist...would you then say that parents should be jailed for brainwashing their children? That would technically be abuse according to you no?
I actually know of (about third-hand, so take it for what it's worth) two families who HS'ed their kids specifically so they would not be exposed to Christianity. One was pagan and the other was hardcore atheist.
  #160  
Old 05-15-2020, 03:21 PM
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I think there is a difference between general education and education that requires a certain accountability of technical and expertise accreditation.

For example, you wouldn't want a self-taught uncertified builder making buildings
and bridges for you. In these sort of tasks, you should definitely have to receive
qualifications and testing to prove your competency is more than sufficient to meet the safety standards.

But I don't think you need accountability and testing if you want to teach your kids about animals, how to do paper mache, read books, how to play musical instruments, or draw etc. There are many things you can learn and be educated in that shouldn't require these kinds of standardized tests to be accountable.

We have standardized testings for accountability in things like driver's license, first aid ...... but we don't have it for telling people how to live life, how to enjoy themselves....even how to parent....there are no tests that tell you if you are able or unable to do such things per se (maybe there should be for parenting?).
What the hell type of job can the person who literally has the old 1800s readin writin and rithmatic to 6th grade get and keep? McBurger flipping? How in the hell do you expect them to manage to earn a living enough to keep themselves not to mention a family? Babysitting? Dog walking?
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I dont wish to quote all of your writing just to say I agree with most of it.

I am ok with having some sort of homeschooling oversite. Parents should be required to show things like curriculum to some authority (not sure who but I think its their local school districts officials). I am also ok with annual testing PROVIDED they also test the public school kids and if the homeschool parents can be held accountable, so should parents and schools of regular kids.

As I said earlier this is technically the last week of school in our area. Dozens of kids at my wifes schools have failing grades because they refused to do any work or even attend classes and now are reaching out to the teachers for help. The schools often pencil whip their grades so they can move on. I feel that if they were forced to pass an annual test that would not happen (not that their have been many cases of cheating on standardized tests).
I grew up in the 60s and 70s. We had tests at least once a week, once a month and then at the end of every semester/trimester [depending on which school I was going to at the time.] We also had a much bigger test at the end of the school year, and I also remember a big test at the end of 6th grade, 8th grade and 12th grade. We had also been given a pre-SAT, a SAT, and an ASVAB as well as back in 6th grade and again in 9th grade one of the IQ tests.

My various teachers went to college, graduated and were certified to teach whatever their subject was. I would have trusted my mom to manage up to and through 9th grade in pretty much every subject, and all the way in history/social studies, math and 'soft science' but not hard science like chemistry/biology [I can just see dissecting a frog on the kitchen table ...] or the harder math [calculus, physics] Her university degree was in speech therapy with a minor in comparative theology [she was a blast when various door to door missionaries came around =) ] and she knew how to *think* and was able to help me with most of my homework [except for spanish, her more or less first language was German] I have a degree in Political Science, accounting concentrating on forensics and certificates in machine technology and paralegal studies. I would be able to supervise kids in pretty much general studies, some aspects of math better than others, French and Spanish, English [I have actually tutored French and worked with people I know on both American and British English as a second language] but I honestly can' see how one can really manage some of the hard science courses that have lab requirements [OK, so we can dissect critters on the kitchen table, and I did have one of the 'toy' home chemistry sets I don't see making TNT in the bath tub [though it is possible to make at home ... don't ask. mrAru can make silver fulminate pretty much on autopilot as a result of a risky misspent youth]

I know people who could run a kiddy SERE school complete with weapons handling and combatives scaled down for 10 year olds ... is that also ok for you for homeschooling?
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  #161  
Old 05-15-2020, 04:22 PM
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This calls for a "Cite?"
This is tired old news:

Joshua D. Angrist Jonathan Guryan, "Does teacher testing raise teacher quality? Evidence from state certification requirements," Economics of Education Review 27, no. 5 (October 2008): 483-503

Thomas J. Kane, Jonah E. Rockoff, and Douglas O. Staiger, “What Does Certification Tell Us About Teacher Effectiveness? Evidence from New York City,” Economics of Education Review 27, no. 6 (December 2008): 615–631

Donald J. Boyd, Pamela L. Grossman, Hamilton Lankford, Susanna Loeb, and James Wyckoff, “Teacher Preparation and Student Achievement,” Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis 31, no. 4 (December 2009): 416–440

Etc., Etc.

The small exception is high school math IIRC.

Teacher experience does matter. Hanushek studied this but I don't remember where the cutoff was. Maybe two years or so. That, of course, is in a classroom setting.
  #162  
Old 05-15-2020, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruken View Post
This is tired old news:

Joshua D. Angrist Jonathan Guryan, "Does teacher testing raise teacher quality? Evidence from state certification requirements," Economics of Education Review 27, no. 5 (October 2008): 483-503

Thomas J. Kane, Jonah E. Rockoff, and Douglas O. Staiger, “What Does Certification Tell Us About Teacher Effectiveness? Evidence from New York City,” Economics of Education Review 27, no. 6 (December 2008): 615–631

Donald J. Boyd, Pamela L. Grossman, Hamilton Lankford, Susanna Loeb, and James Wyckoff, “Teacher Preparation and Student Achievement,” Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis 31, no. 4 (December 2009): 416–440

Etc., Etc.

The small exception is high school math IIRC.

Teacher experience does matter. Hanushek studied this but I don't remember where the cutoff was. Maybe two years or so. That, of course, is in a classroom setting.
So, the contention here is that anyone could walk into a school and teach just as well as someone with a teaching degree?
  #163  
Old 05-15-2020, 05:26 PM
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Asahi,

The political and business interests that form 'The State' have a compelling interest in the level of literacy and the compatibility of belief systems throughout the work force and consumer base. That uniformity of belief is established through public education. The 6000 year old earth belief is not an independent variable. A lot of stuff comes with it.
  #164  
Old 05-15-2020, 05:30 PM
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So, the contention here is that anyone could walk into a school and teach just as well as someone with a teaching degree?
The contention is that requirements that do not improve student outcomes in a school are poor requirements for parents who want to teach at home.
  #165  
Old 05-15-2020, 05:30 PM
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Not all home schooling is done by parents; it's also done by tutors who visit. Some home schooling can also come in the form of families getting together for small group learning, though I don't know if that's very common. Probably not a surprise that home schooling is often done for religious reasons but that's not always the case home schooling will be a thing in the future for sure.

There's nothing at all with home schooling in principle. My concern is that home schooling may end up taking away resources from public education - all children have a right to have access to a quality education. We as a community have a duty to make sure that they become educated.
I just remembered a man in my old town who, after he retired from full-time teaching, did some per diem work as a homebound tutor. I assumed that he was mostly teaching kids who couldn't go to school due to health issues - a child with cancer, a teenage girl having a complicated pregnancy, that kind of thing - and he said he did do that, but most of them were kids who couldn't attend school because of behavioral issues and their parents (or, more commonly, legal guardians) couldn't be trusted to provide them with an education.

There's also a meme floating around Facebook that parents can now "correct" their kids as they see fit (i.e. beat them into submission) because CPS won't be breathing down their neck now that school isn't in session. Oh, really?
  #166  
Old 05-15-2020, 10:14 PM
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I just remembered a man in my old town who, after he retired from full-time teaching, did some per diem work as a homebound tutor. I assumed that he was mostly teaching kids who couldn't go to school due to health issues - a child with cancer, a teenage girl having a complicated pregnancy, that kind of thing - and he said he did do that, but most of them were kids who couldn't attend school because of behavioral issues and their parents (or, more commonly, legal guardians) couldn't be trusted to provide them with an education.

There's also a meme floating around Facebook that parents can now "correct" their kids as they see fit (i.e. beat them into submission) because CPS won't be breathing down their neck now that school isn't in session. Oh, really?
The kid gymnast I mentioned earlier who did gym 6 hours a day and therefore had to homeschool, had a tutor. The families on the pro bowling tour who homeschooled, worked it out together. So like while 1 mother taught the 3 year olds, another the 5's, and another the older ones. Plus they had the benefit of every week being in a different location so they can go on constant field trips to new locations.

In Hollywood, child actors have tutors on set.

I've also known parents, well its not exactly homeschool, but they pool money and hire a tutor and said tutor/teacher teaches 3,4,5 kids or so in someones living room or such.

So its very common.
  #167  
Old 05-15-2020, 10:57 PM
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I have definitely heard of multiple families team-teaching the children, especially in the case of single and/or working parents.
  #168  
Old 05-16-2020, 08:15 AM
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The contention is that requirements that do not improve student outcomes in a school are poor requirements for parents who want to teach at home.
And so what, if any, requirements would you have for parents that want to teach at home?
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Old 05-16-2020, 10:02 AM
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And so what, if any, requirements would you have for parents that want to teach at home?
I have little interest in making your argument for you.
  #170  
Old 05-16-2020, 10:13 AM
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I have little interest in making your argument for you.
I'm probably misunderstanding you but you seem to care more about the years than the credentials. It seems that you would want parents to have 10 years of teaching prior to teaching home school. So 10 years of elementary education prior to teaching k-6, 10 years of middle school prior to teaching 7 & 8, and then 10 years each of high school English, math, science, and history.

I think that is a reasonable proposal and I'm glad you made it. It solves the worthless credential problem and still allows for tutors that Urban is bringing up. Overall an elegant solution.
  #171  
Old 05-16-2020, 10:16 AM
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I'm probably misunderstanding you
This is a correct assessment based on the rest of your post, which is grounded in neither anything I posted nor in the academic literature on the economics of education.
  #172  
Old 05-16-2020, 10:31 AM
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The small exception is high school math IIRC.

Teacher experience does matter. Hanushek studied this but I don't remember where the cutoff was. Maybe two years or so. That, of course, is in a classroom setting.
You are correct. You want 2 years for each and a certificates and education for math at the high school level. You haven't been clear on if that two years is by grade or not.

So a minimum of 2 years of in classroom time for k-6, the two years of 7-8 and then a batchlors degree in math and 2 years of english, history, and science. Thanks for getting me to go back and check so i don't misunderstood you.

That seems to mean the requirement to be q home school teach through high school would be a batchlors degree in math and 10 years of class room time at various levels. I don't think many people would argue with that standard.

Last edited by Oredigger77; 05-16-2020 at 10:32 AM.
  #173  
Old 05-16-2020, 10:46 AM
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You want
Wrong again.
  #174  
Old 05-16-2020, 11:07 AM
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I have little interest in making your argument for you.
Sounds like you have little interest in making an argument on your own behalf, more like.

You said "Teacher tests, qualifications, and benchmarks are for public school teachers. Nobody ever required these of me. They're mostly useless box-checking to provide a barrier to entry to the profession, as they typically aren't associated with better student outcomes."

You then "backed" that assertion with a glurge of headlines that did not actually back your statement. Your articles, at best, indicate that testing and certification, above and beyond what is required to get a teaching license in the first place does not necessarily correlate with significantly better student outcomes.

None of the articles that you "cite" claim that someone without a degree in teaching or a license to teach is as effective an educator as someone without.

You have done very poorly at bolstering your own argument, at this point it rests soley on your personal experience of being home schooled and feeling that you turned out alright.

So, your dodge of the question as to what requirements or qualifications you would ask of a parent that wishes to homeschool their own children indicates to me that you do not think that there should be any requirements or regulations over parents of guardians as educators.
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Old 05-16-2020, 11:45 AM
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Can we possibly get back to Homeschooling, the OP?
  #176  
Old 05-16-2020, 12:14 PM
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Wrong again.
Then your clarity is poor. Feel free to try again.
  #177  
Old 05-16-2020, 12:23 PM
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Can we possibly get back to Homeschooling, the OP?
We are discussing the qualifications and requirements that may be asked of those who choose to educate their own children at home.

If it's just the subject line of the OP that you are looking to answer, the answer that nearly everyone in this thread has given is "No."
  #178  
Old 05-16-2020, 01:08 PM
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Just an anecdote, I know, but one particularly close to me:

My niece was homeschooled. I was skeptical at first when my sister told me, but she turned out great.

They are very liberal and homeschooled mainly because they thought local schools are too conservative. They are strong atheists too.

My sister has Ph.D. in biology and her husband is a high school science teacher. So there was never any question about their qualifications. In fact it was my brother-in-law’s experience teaching in the public schools that convinced them not to send their daughter there.

As for social interactions, that turned out to be no problem at all. My niece has turned out to be one of most social, extroverted people I’ve ever known. I’m not sure how that happened but I know she was exposed to many social experiences.

She even got into a good college and is now a graduate student in mathematics at a prestigious university.

Fundamentally I now believe homeschooling should be allowed. Just because it can lead to bad outcomes isn’t justification to restrict it.
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  #179  
Old 05-16-2020, 01:28 PM
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Fundamentally I now believe homeschooling should be allowed. Just because it can lead to bad outcomes isn’t justification to restrict it.
It isn't justification to ban it, but I do think that there is plenty of justification to regulate it.
  #180  
Old 05-16-2020, 04:24 PM
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Sounds like you have little interest in making an argument on your own behalf, more like.

You said "Teacher tests, qualifications, and benchmarks are for public school teachers. Nobody ever required these of me. They're mostly useless box-checking to provide a barrier to entry to the profession, as they typically aren't associated with better student outcomes."

You then "backed" that assertion with a glurge of headlines that did not actually back your statement. Your articles, at best, indicate that testing and certification, above and beyond what is required to get a teaching license in the first place does not necessarily correlate with significantly better student outcomes.

None of the articles that you "cite" claim that someone without a degree in teaching or a license to teach is as effective an educator as someone without.

You have done very poorly at bolstering your own argument, at this point it rests soley on your personal experience of being home schooled and feeling that you turned out alright.
Apparently three articles out of hundreds in a widely-studied field is a "glurge". They were a courtesy for those who haven't yet researched the topic but who are able and willing to fight their own ignorance. And who are no doubt appreciative of the curation, rather than a punch-these-terms-into-SciFinder dump.

One factor that makes this topic easier to study is that so-called "requirements" often aren't actually required, and so we can measure outcomes from teacher who both do and do not meet them, i.e. certified, uncertified, and alternatively certified teachers. As is discussed in the first paper. The second discusses how there appear to be difference in efficacy for teachers coming out of different training programs, but pinning down the origin of those differences is challenging. The third discusses how while increasing requirements for teachers generally doesn't improve students outcomes, it does increase pay. Which isn't surprising, as that's the expected result of raising barriers to entry into the profession. While my ideal world would have teachers paid more, excluding potentially good teachers is not IMO a good way to do it.

My apologies, to the able and willing who actually read those papers, for taking up space with the explanation.
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So, your dodge of the question as to what requirements or qualifications you would ask of a parent that wishes to homeschool their own children indicates to me that you do not think that there should be any requirements or regulations over parents of guardians as educators.
1) Ignoring JAQs is generally good policy that I recommend others follow.

2) Pointing out the flaws in a proposal does not obligate me to offer an alternative one.

3) Generally one synthesizes the available information first, then makes a policy recommendation. The general trend in this thread seems to be the reverse. If you're interested in an IMHO poll, knock yourself out. That doesn't interest me.

The two policy extremes are Do Nothing and Ban It. I suspect the optimum is somewhere between, although I could be wrong about that. We (or some of us) are trying to minimize abuse and maximize education.

I am wary of proposals that levy requirements that we don't even impose on all teachers in public schools, let alone at private schools (which often aren't even legally required to be accredited), and which are inconsistent, per many studies, with improved student outcomes. We should be reconsidering these hiring policies, not imposing them elsewhere.

I know, from my coursework on the economics of education and on teaching that there is vast literature, which I've barely scraped, showing what doesn't improve educational outcomes, but that pinning down factors that improve them is difficult.

I am wary of enabling school districts like the one that told us they'd keep us from homeschooling if they could, but that they couldn't. It was a full year and a half behind the district we'd moved from and would be moving back to. I am wary of enabling the Trump administration and Betsy DeVos from setting some sort of "common understanding of citizenship". Or fundie republican states and districts from mandating curricula. See, for example, Texas' meddling with the content of history books.

I know, from personal teaching experience both in-classroom and one-on-one, that handling a classroom requires a set of skills that are irrelevant in one-on-one instruction.

I know, from attending five different non-home-schools in grades 1-8 that school quality varies widely. And from siblings attending the same schools, that not everyone thrives in the same environment.

I know that when measuring student outcomes for individual teachers, it's hard enough to get a good analysis in a school setting, where you have multiple teachers and multiple students. If students are randomly assigned, then you can measure improvement with different combinations of teachers and back out the contributions of individual teachers. This doesn't work with one teacher and one student. You can see how a student improves year over year, but you can't back out how he or she could have done in a different setting.

As others have pointed out, we generally don't require people to prove they're not committing crimes. I suspect we could reduce abuse by mandating in-home inspections even of children who are in public schools, but that people would find that overly intrusive.

But I also know that children are neglected and abused, and that it's easier to neglect and abuse a child as contact with outsiders, especially with mandated reporters, decreases. And that while it's possible to stay one page ahead of a student or even learn something together, someone who is completely illiterate or innumerate seems unlikely to succeed in instructing others. Although I've not actually seen that studied.

And so given all the above, I suspect any improved policy will require significant analysis and nuance. And so I could jump on the Dunning–Kruger party you're asking me to join and drop some pithy, uninformed turd with little substance beyond "we should regulate it." But I prefer to do things my way. Some readers will choose to learn from that, but nobody is forced to.
  #181  
Old 05-16-2020, 09:59 PM
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Just an anecdote, I know, but one particularly close to me:

My niece was homeschooled. I was skeptical at first when my sister told me, but she turned out great.

They are very liberal and homeschooled mainly because they thought local schools are too conservative. They are strong atheists too.

My sister has Ph.D. in biology and her husband is a high school science teacher. So there was never any question about their qualifications. In fact it was my brother-in-law’s experience teaching in the public schools that convinced them not to send their daughter there.

As for social interactions, that turned out to be no problem at all. My niece has turned out to be one of most social, extroverted people I’ve ever known. I’m not sure how that happened but I know she was exposed to many social experiences.

She even got into a good college and is now a graduate student in mathematics at a prestigious university.

Fundamentally I now believe homeschooling should be allowed. Just because it can lead to bad outcomes isn’t justification to restrict it.
Question: Who taught her then? Was it the Mom? Did they have any restrictions or reporting requirements? Also were they part of any homeschool networks?
  #182  
Old 05-16-2020, 10:05 PM
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It isn't justification to ban it, but I do think that there is plenty of justification to regulate it.
Thing is going back to the OP some would put such tight regulations on it that it would be effectively banned.

And why? Because the news has stories of some crazy parents. it seems like the Harvard professor in the article only knows the bad stories, never the good. She also knows little about the nuts and bolts of it and all the hard work parents put into it. Its much easier to just put your kids on a school bus and let someone else teach them.


Now after all this I'm actually for some basic regulations like reporting to a district and taking some standardized tests.
  #183  
Old 05-16-2020, 10:33 PM
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Ok, lets say we do require annual testing for homeschoolers. And if they fall short they be required to put their kids in a regular school.

Believe it or not I'm ok with that. Like others I dont want to hear about kids falling thru the cracks and not getting an education.

But ONLY if regular kids in the public schools also are required to take the same tests AND they can be held back in grade if they fail AND if many kids in such a school fail the school can get into trouble.

Would that be ok?
You aren't comparing apples to apples here. For the homeschooled child, the penalty is a removal from the homeschool and a placement in the public school. When the public school fails in its mission, the penalty is that they get a redo.

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I repeat my question to you from an earlier post:


Taxpayer-funded professional education, like taxpayer-funded professional medical care, is provided for children by society precisely because we can't take it for granted that parents in general are capable of performing these specialized services on their own.

Sure, most parents can and do successfully teach their children lots of useful things, just as most parents can and do successfully handle innumerable minor medical problems (scrapes, rashes, digestive upsets etc.) in their children. But that doesn't mean that we should automatically grant parents the authority to be their children's sole healthcare providers, or their sole educators, if we have no idea whether they're adequately qualified to take on that job.
Medical care and education are so vastly different as to not even be comparable. It's one thing to say that we don't believe the average person is qualified to diagnose illness or to prescribe medicine and it is yet another to say that the danger of someone not being able to teach elementary subjects is so great as to need an intrusion. We don't allow adults to prescribe their own medicine.

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I thought you were making a comparison to abuse. When we discover parents are beating their children we put them in jail. When we discover parente are abusing their home schooled children by withholding knowledge we should put them in jail too. Since you posit we can't look in to discover the abuses until they are an adult that means we have to wait until the abuse has gone on long enough to be severe.
Yes, but what I am saying is that the simple failure of a GRE is not evidence of abuse unless you are proposing jailing teachers when their students fail a test. I don't want to see children deprived of an education either, but by and large homeschoolers do far better than those educated in the public schools. It seems as if the focus of this effort is misplaced.
  #184  
Old 05-16-2020, 10:44 PM
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The gorilla in the room is the teaching of social norms. Our current inclusive society requires acceptance of all races and life styles as normal. Domestic tranquility requires the mutual acceptance of all life styles and that is taught in public schools. The purpose of some homeschooling is to reject specific life styles. Can that be tolerated in homeschooling and, if not, can it be controlled?
Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but are you suggesting that parents should not be able to say to their children that, for example, homosexuality is sinful? If not, then perhaps maybe expand on this. If so, that sounds positively 1984.
  #185  
Old 05-16-2020, 10:45 PM
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Just an anecdote, I know, but one particularly close to me:

My niece was homeschooled. I was skeptical at first when my sister told me, but she turned out great.

They are very liberal and homeschooled mainly because they thought local schools are too conservative. They are strong atheists too.

My sister has Ph.D. in biology and her husband is a high school science teacher. So there was never any question about their qualifications. In fact it was my brother-in-law’s experience teaching in the public schools that convinced them not to send their daughter there.

As for social interactions, that turned out to be no problem at all. My niece has turned out to be one of most social, extroverted people I’ve ever known. I’m not sure how that happened but I know she was exposed to many social experiences.

She even got into a good college and is now a graduate student in mathematics at a prestigious university.

Fundamentally I now believe homeschooling should be allowed. Just because it can lead to bad outcomes isn’t justification to restrict it.
My primary vocation is education. I care a lot about the subject. I believe in a strong public education system. I was also skeptical about home schooling, but the more I've learned about it, the less I object to it outright.

Like I say, as long as we don't use home schooling and vouchers and other shit as a justification for de-funding public schools, there's no problem in principle.
  #186  
Old 05-16-2020, 10:49 PM
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Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but are you suggesting that parents should not be able to say to their children that, for example, homosexuality is sinful? If not, then perhaps maybe expand on this. If so, that sounds positively 1984.
The thing is, parents will say that to their children regardless of what the school curriculum says to the contrary. You could centralize the shit out of education (which I'm not necessarily advocating) - that wouldn't prevent parents from indoctrinating their children. Let's not design a curriculum with the aim of preventing indoctrination; let's design it with the aim of presenting a fact-based education to children and then giving them an opportunity to select between explanations the school system offers and those of their parents or those that are achieved through personal experience and reflection. Education is largely experience. The classroom isn't the only experience we have.
  #187  
Old 05-16-2020, 10:54 PM
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My primary vocation is education. I care a lot about the subject. I believe in a strong public education system. I was also skeptical about home schooling, but the more I've learned about it, the less I object to it outright.

Like I say, as long as we don't use home schooling and vouchers and other shit as a justification for de-funding public schools, there's no problem in principle.
But I think therein lies the rub. I went to the public schools and I'm all in favor of a robust public school system. They have many benefits and I'm not some right wing zealot trying to close them all down.

However, I am also struck by the many failures of the public schools despite the massive, and I mean truly massive amounts of money that we pour into them. The failures are so big that homeschooling and private schools are flourishing (and for the purposes of discussion, I'll exclude those who send their children to religious schools for a religious education as that "failure" could not possibly be placed on the public schools who have to operate under the Establishment Clause).

Imagine being given something at no additional cost to you but you refuse it. Say, for example, that the city provided taxpayer funded lawn care service at no additional charge. You don't get a rebate for refusing it.

But despite having the city free lawn care service you have a significant portion of people hiring others to mow their laws (private schools) and many others still mowing their own lawns (homeschooling). If you were the director of the city lawn care service, what would that tell you about your service?
  #188  
Old 05-16-2020, 11:02 PM
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The thing is, parents will say that to their children regardless of what the school curriculum says to the contrary.
Why should the school system say something contrary? If we are trying to educate and not indoctrinate, then why not just teach the facts without having an opinion on that?

For example, teach about the strides that the gay community has made from mental illness to repeal of sodomy laws to legal gay marriage. Let the students debate their own opinion and if the teacher is asked "Who is right?" or "Is being gay a sin?" or "Is being gay just as normal as being straight?" you tell them that is not up to the school system to have opinions, we are here to teach facts, and it is for you to come up with your own opinions.
  #189  
Old 05-17-2020, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Why should the school system say something contrary? If we are trying to educate and not indoctrinate, then why not just teach the facts without having an opinion on that?

For example, teach about the strides that the gay community has made from mental illness to repeal of sodomy laws to legal gay marriage. Let the students debate their own opinion and if the teacher is asked "Who is right?" or "Is being gay a sin?" or "Is being gay just as normal as being straight?" you tell them that is not up to the school system to have opinions, we are here to teach facts, and it is for you to come up with your own opinions.
It's not generally the school system's function to have opinions- but you aren't looking at it from the other point of view. By "other point of view", I mean the point of view of the parent who believes that teaching about the strides the gay community has made is contrary to the "fact" that being gay is a sin. Those parents are free to continue to teach their children that being gay is a sin even while the school system is teaching about facts such as the fact that gay marriage is legal.
  #190  
Old 05-17-2020, 09:38 AM
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If you were the director of the city lawn care service, what would that tell you about your service?
That my lawn care service didn't appeal to bigots and those who think that only God botherers should be mowing lawns?
  #191  
Old 05-17-2020, 10:26 AM
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Like I say, as long as we don't use home schooling and vouchers and other shit as a justification for de-funding public schools, there's no problem in principle.
Absolutely. Don't use it as a justification to de-fund and generally disparage public education.

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The thing is, parents will say that to their children regardless of what the school curriculum says to the contrary. You could centralize the shit out of education (which I'm not necessarily advocating) - that wouldn't prevent parents from indoctrinating their children. Let's not design a curriculum with the aim of preventing indoctrination; let's design it with the aim of presenting a fact-based education to children and then giving them an opportunity to select between explanations the school system offers and those of their parents or those that are achieved through personal experience and reflection. Education is largely experience. The classroom isn't the only experience we have.
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Imagine being given something at no additional cost to you but you refuse it. Say, for example, that the city provided taxpayer funded lawn care service at no additional charge. You don't get a rebate for refusing it.

But despite having the city free lawn care service you have a significant portion of people hiring others to mow their laws (private schools) and many others still mowing their own lawns (homeschooling). If you were the director of the city lawn care service, what would that tell you about your service?
NOT necessarily that I'm doing it WRONG. It can be just that I do not do it to the taste of those residents, and when it comes to education, public health or other public services, the customer is NOT always right.

Plus...
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It's not generally the school system's function to have opinions- but you aren't looking at it from the other point of view. By "other point of view", I mean the point of view of the parent who believes that teaching about the strides the gay community has made is contrary to the "fact" that being gay is a sin. Those parents are free to continue to teach their children that being gay is a sin even while the school system is teaching about facts such as the fact that gay marriage is legal.
...and will be quite mad that the school dares even tell their child something contrary to their beliefs.

Quite honestly, I'm more respectful of the parents who apply themselves to inculcation of values in the family home and church (including homeschooling), as opposed to School Board members who will bowdlerize the curriculum and expunge the reading list of "sinful" issues for all of everyone's children, seeking to pander.
  #192  
Old 05-17-2020, 09:58 PM
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It's not generally the school system's function to have opinions- but you aren't looking at it from the other point of view. By "other point of view", I mean the point of view of the parent who believes that teaching about the strides the gay community has made is contrary to the "fact" that being gay is a sin. Those parents are free to continue to teach their children that being gay is a sin even while the school system is teaching about facts such as the fact that gay marriage is legal.
How about when kids learn at a public school the way to get a good spot on a sports team or the lead role in a school play is how much money their parents give to the booster club or the parents roles on the school board or in the community?

How about how a teacher is supposedly hired to teach say history but in truth, they are hired to coach basketball?

How about when kids see that students that cause trouble are often handed grades just to get them to graduate or not be in the same grade or class the next year?
  #193  
Old 05-18-2020, 12:21 AM
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Medical care and education are so vastly different as to not even be comparable.
They're not comparable in all ways, sure, but that doesn't mean it's meaningless to make some comparisons between them.

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Originally Posted by UltraVires
It's one thing to say that we don't believe the average person is qualified to diagnose illness or to prescribe medicine and it is yet another to say that the danger of someone not being able to teach elementary subjects is so great as to need an intrusion. We don't allow adults to prescribe their own medicine.
And we don't allow adults to bestow their own educational qualifications, either. You can't just do a bunch of reading on the internet and then legitimately award yourself an academically accredited PhD, any more than you can just do a bunch of reading on the internet and then legitimately prescribe your own medicine.

We do, however, allow adults to provide plenty of everyday medical treatments for themselves and their children in response to everyday health problems, just as we allow adults to undertake plenty of educational tasks for themselves and their children. What we don't do in the case of medicine is to assume that adults are automatically qualified to be the only providers of needed medical treatments for themselves or their children. It's not unreasonable to suggest that we shouldn't assume that adults are automatically qualified to be the only providers of needed educational attainments, either.

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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck
[...] it seems like the Harvard professor in the article only knows the bad stories, never the good. She also knows little about the nuts and bolts of it and all the hard work parents put into it.
Have you considered that it "seems" that way to you merely because you know nothing about Dr. Bartholet's experience and expertise on this subject? By your own choice, mind you: you couldn't even be bothered to read her paper that has been linked to multiple times in this thread, which makes it very clear that she knows a great deal---far more than you do, in fact---about good stories in homeschooling experience, as well as about the "nuts and bolts" of those endeavors and all the hard work parents put into them.

But if you'd rather cling to the illusion that Dr. Bartholet can't possibly have adequate "real world" knowledge of this subject because she's a professional teacher and researcher on it, well, that's up to you.
  #194  
Old 05-18-2020, 09:49 AM
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How about when kids learn at a public school the way to get a good spot on a sports team or the lead role in a school play is how much money their parents give to the booster club or the parents roles on the school board or in the community?

How about how a teacher is supposedly hired to teach say history but in truth, they are hired to coach basketball?

How about when kids see that students that cause trouble are often handed grades just to get them to graduate or not be in the same grade or class the next year?
It could be argued that incidents like the above teach children very valuable lessons about the realities of the adult world.
  #195  
Old 05-18-2020, 09:50 AM
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Yes, but what I am saying is that the simple failure of a GRE is not evidence of abuse unless you are proposing jailing teachers when their students fail a test. I don't want to see children deprived of an education either, but by and large homeschoolers do far better than those educated in the public schools. It seems as if the focus of this effort is misplaced.
First off I want to apologize. I've been studying for the GRE and that wasn't what I meant at all. I meant GED.

Secondly, I think you could draw up a fair system of jail for all. Say a home schooler parents kid fails their GED the parents goes to jail for 10 years (13 school years × 9 months per year). If a public school kid fails their freshman math teach would be responsible for 9 months in jail divided by their total number of students so say 150 or about a day and a half of course that should be split by all of the other teachers so it should be about 3 hours.

Of course this policy would decrease the number of teachers that want to teach in impoverished districts rather than rich ones so long term it wouldn't have the desired effect. I am all for improving public schools and I think robust testing to determine where the failure points are is essential. A big difference if that the child is removed from an ineffective public school teacher at the end of the school year we aren't removing kids from ineffective home schoolers.

As for your lawn mowing example. I think its a pretty good one. Even if the public option does a good job some people are going to prefer the have a team of ten people giving their home a golf course like appearance where it it mowed every day and some people sit home and have nothing better to do then spend 40 hours per week on their lawn. Neither of them are a problem and both would pass the standards of the public lawn service. We just need a way to prevent the person who is taking care of their own lawn from growing nothing but dandelions and dirt from making the rest of the neighborhood work harder.
  #196  
Old 05-18-2020, 11:09 AM
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Apparently three articles out of hundreds in a widely-studied field is a "glurge". They were a courtesy for those who haven't yet researched the topic but who are able and willing to fight their own ignorance. And who are no doubt appreciative of the curation, rather than a punch-these-terms-into-SciFinder dump.
Generally, the accepted way to use studies to bolster your argument is to use relevant excerpts, preferably with a bit of analysis, rather than asking others to do your research for you. Especially as one of them was behind a paywall. $35 isn't going to break me, but it's not worth it for 24 hours access to a paper so that I can try to find out what your point is.
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One factor that makes this topic easier to study is that so-called "requirements" often aren't actually required, and so we can measure outcomes from teacher who both do and do not meet them, i.e. certified, uncertified, and alternatively certified teachers. As is discussed in the first paper. The second discusses how there appear to be difference in efficacy for teachers coming out of different training programs, but pinning down the origin of those differences is challenging. The third discusses how while increasing requirements for teachers generally doesn't improve students outcomes, it does increase pay. Which isn't surprising, as that's the expected result of raising barriers to entry into the profession. While my ideal world would have teachers paid more, excluding potentially good teachers is not IMO a good way to do it.
This is at least a bit of analysis of the papers that you cited. Thank you.

It doesn't answer my question as to what your opinion is on the minimum requirements before we allow someone to become a primary educator of their own child, but it does give evidence to your point, that no one has disputed, that arbitrary qualifications are not a clear indicator of better results in the students. I hang out with teachers who complain about spending their summers renewing or expanding their certificates, the opinion that I have come away from these discussions is pretty well summed up in your studies. It may be interesting to share those papers with them and see what they think.

The self selection criteria for those in the studies (the two not behind a paywall anyway) indicated that these were teachers who had some level of experience in teaching, some instruction and certification, even if it was not of a traditional nature. I did not see where they just pulled random people off the street and gave them a classroom, or even 1 on 1 tutoring, which is what we would be doing by having parents homeschool with no requirements or qualifications.
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My apologies, to the able and willing who actually read those papers, for taking up space with the explanation.
Actually I'm sure that many appreciated your analysis. Thank you.
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1) Ignoring JAQs is generally good policy that I recommend others follow.
this is addressed here
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2) Pointing out the flaws in a proposal does not obligate me to offer an alternative one.
You have no obligations whatsoever. We're just people, talking, trying to make sense of the world.
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3) Generally one synthesizes the available information first, then makes a policy recommendation. The general trend in this thread seems to be the reverse. If you're interested in an IMHO poll, knock yourself out. That doesn't interest me.
I did think that, given your firsthand experience, and that it seems as though you turned out alright, that your opinion on the subject to be a valuable data point, which is why I asked for it.
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The two policy extremes are Do Nothing and Ban It. I suspect the optimum is somewhere between, although I could be wrong about that. We (or some of us) are trying to minimize abuse and maximize education.

I am wary of proposals that levy requirements that we don't even impose on all teachers in public schools, let alone at private schools (which often aren't even legally required to be accredited), and which are inconsistent, per many studies, with improved student outcomes. We should be reconsidering these hiring policies, not imposing them elsewhere.
I don't know that there are any serious proposals that would levy requirements greater than those imposed on public teachers. States vary, quite a bit, so I can certainly see a situation where one state has more requirements to home school than another state has for public teaching, but that's just a "feature" of our dual federalism, and for policy purposes, any comparisons between requirements of teachers and homeschooling educators should only be considered within a state. (Except, of course, for academic purposes, as studying the varying requirements against student outcomes could give us more data to better guide schools and educators.)

I also think that private schools should have more oversight and requirements than they do, but that's a whole different thread.
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I know, from my coursework on the economics of education and on teaching that there is vast literature, which I've barely scraped, showing what doesn't improve educational outcomes, but that pinning down factors that improve them is difficult.
Honestly, I'd say that making sure that the student is well rested and fed probably has far more to do with their academic performance than teacher certifications.

The environment of students and schools is so varied, and such an important part of their performance, that trying to tell what contribution the teacher has made is like trying to measure the breeze of a fan in a hurricane.

Which is at least part of the reason to object to homeschooling with no oversight. At least in a school, their environment is controlled, and they have the ability to be fed, and possibly even protected against abuse.
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I am wary of enabling school districts like the one that told us they'd keep us from homeschooling if they could, but that they couldn't. It was a full year and a half behind the district we'd moved from and would be moving back to. I am wary of enabling the Trump administration and Betsy DeVos from setting some sort of "common understanding of citizenship". Or fundie republican states and districts from mandating curricula. See, for example, Texas' meddling with the content of history books.
The idea of insitutional learning has both its benifits and its drawbacks. That we all end up with a shared idea of the universe and reality is a feature, but that nefarious actors can create a distorted reality is quite the danger.

The difference is, is that when Texas meddles with its history books, the whole nation takes notice. What comes of that notice may not be all that useful, but at least we know what is being taught. When people are being taught at home based on the curriculum made by their parents, we have no idea what version of reality that they are getting.
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I know, from personal teaching experience both in-classroom and one-on-one, that handling a classroom requires a set of skills that are irrelevant in one-on-one instruction.
Public teachers are usually also taught one on one skills. Personally, I think that class sizes should be much smaller, and the focus should be on small groups and one on one, rather than trying to teach 32 kids all at the same time.

I do feel that group learning has a number of benefits that are not found in one on one instruction. This is something that some homeschooling groups can offer, but obviously cannot be offered in a one on one parent/student setting.
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I know, from attending five different non-home-schools in grades 1-8 that school quality varies widely. And from siblings attending the same schools, that not everyone thrives in the same environment.

I know that when measuring student outcomes for individual teachers, it's hard enough to get a good analysis in a school setting, where you have multiple teachers and multiple students. If students are randomly assigned, then you can measure improvement with different combinations of teachers and back out the contributions of individual teachers. This doesn't work with one teacher and one student. You can see how a student improves year over year, but you can't back out how he or she could have done in a different setting.
And you also have the problem that your test subject is expected to eventually become a productive citizen, so you cannot ethically subject them to the kind of rigorous double blind study that would be needed to really eliminate variables and pin down relevant factors.

But, as I stated up thread, making sure that the student is rested, fed, and secure is probably a much larger variable, and one that is hardest to control for.
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As others have pointed out, we generally don't require people to prove they're not committing crimes. I suspect we could reduce abuse by mandating in-home inspections even of children who are in public schools, but that people would find that overly intrusive.
The state can certainly go too far, but I do see that it has a legitimate and compelling interest in ensuring that children are well cared for and grow up to be adjusted and productive citizens. This goes against a parent's right to control their child and their upbringing to have them grow up into the sort of adult the parent wants them to be. Most of the time, the state and the parent have the same goal, the same interest in what is best for the child.

Unfortunately, without any sort of imposition on parents, we have no way of knowing how their kids turned out until they are adults. Some sort of imposition should be made.
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But I also know that children are neglected and abused, and that it's easier to neglect and abuse a child as contact with outsiders, especially with mandated reporters, decreases. And that while it's possible to stay one page ahead of a student or even learn something together, someone who is completely illiterate or innumerate seems unlikely to succeed in instructing others. Although I've not actually seen that studied.
I know parents who are not qualified to help their kids with their homework, much less teach the material for it. I cannot see turning their child's education over to them exclusively to have positive results.
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And so given all the above, I suspect any improved policy will require significant analysis and nuance. And so I could jump on the Dunning–Kruger party you're asking me to join and drop some pithy, uninformed turd with little substance beyond "we should regulate it." But I prefer to do things my way. Some readers will choose to learn from that, but nobody is forced to.
What you are saying here is that thee study that has been done is inconclusive, and that it is very unlikely that better studies can be done, given the uncontrollable nature of most of the relevant variables.

I agree that there is much analysis and nuance to be had here, and that is what I was getting at. The OP simply asks if homeschooling should be banned, I think that most of us are in agreement that it should not be. Extending that does ask the question, how should homeschooling be handled, what qualifications and obligations does a parent need to have towards their child's education? Maybe this thread should only be 3 posts long, and taking up the question of when and where homeschooling is appropriate should get its own, if so, I'm fine with moving this elsewhere.

I do not expect a simple or even static answer to the question. I expect that determining homeschooling requirements will be very complex and changing as things change. But if we cannot even ask the question without being accused of JAQing or looking for a Dunning-Kruger party, then no answer can ever be forthcoming. We have to start somewhere.

You insults aside, I do appreciate your input on this matter. I did not mean to cause you offense, and I have no idea why you chose to take such a hostile stance to exploring what really is the heart of the OP.

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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Thing is going back to the OP some would put such tight regulations on it that it would be effectively banned.

And why? Because the news has stories of some crazy parents. it seems like the Harvard professor in the article only knows the bad stories, never the good. She also knows little about the nuts and bolts of it and all the hard work parents put into it. Its much easier to just put your kids on a school bus and let someone else teach them.

Now after all this I'm actually for some basic regulations like reporting to a district and taking some standardized tests.
Do you really think that this professor based her entire paper on some news stories of crazy parents?

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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
But I think therein lies the rub. I went to the public schools and I'm all in favor of a robust public school system. They have many benefits and I'm not some right wing zealot trying to close them all down.

However, I am also struck by the many failures of the public schools despite the massive, and I mean truly massive amounts of money that we pour into them. The failures are so big that homeschooling and private schools are flourishing (and for the purposes of discussion, I'll exclude those who send their children to religious schools for a religious education as that "failure" could not possibly be placed on the public schools who have to operate under the Establishment Clause).
Part of that is because they are massive. There are 56 million public school students. If you have a 99.99% success rate, you are still talking thousands of failed students.

And obviously, anything approaching that rate is not feasible. But, yeah public schools are "one size fits all", and as we all know, the are many who one size fits all does not fit.

Definitely getting far afield of the OP, but if you want to discuss ways of improving the public school system, I'd be down for such a discussion.
Quote:
Imagine being given something at no additional cost to you but you refuse it. Say, for example, that the city provided taxpayer funded lawn care service at no additional charge. You don't get a rebate for refusing it.
As someone without children, I might also point out that in this analogy, you don't even get a rebate if you don't have a lawn. (And, sticking with the analogy, and not reality, you pay the same if you have no lawn, have a little plot of land, or several acres.)
Quote:
But despite having the city free lawn care service you have a significant portion of people hiring others to mow their laws (private schools) and many others still mowing their own lawns (homeschooling). If you were the director of the city lawn care service, what would that tell you about your service?
Depends on what you mean by significant. When 97% of the people use your service, and a substantial number of the remaining 3% refuse because they have a different idea as to how they want their yard landscaped than what you offer, what do you think that that tells you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Why should the school system say something contrary? If we are trying to educate and not indoctrinate, then why not just teach the facts without having an opinion on that?

For example, teach about the strides that the gay community has made from mental illness to repeal of sodomy laws to legal gay marriage. Let the students debate their own opinion and if the teacher is asked "Who is right?" or "Is being gay a sin?" or "Is being gay just as normal as being straight?" you tell them that is not up to the school system to have opinions, we are here to teach facts, and it is for you to come up with your own opinions.
I'll agree that teachers should not be talking about sin, but neither should students, in the classroom. These are direct asks for the teacher's opinion on a matter. The teacher would do poorly if they just answered, but should instead guide the student as well. Keep in mind that school is not just about memorizing facts, it is actually about learning about critical thinking and analysis. So, "Who is right?" You discuss the facts of the matter, explain the damage and hardships that oppressed minorities have to endure, then let them make their own decision as to whether or not oppression is "right". If you just tell them that oppressing minorities is wrong, then that is a simple answer that will not serve them well when they find themselves asking why oppressing minorities is wrong. I think that a problem we find ourselves in right now is that there were many who were told that bigotry and oppression were wrong, but never why, as it just seemed obvious to those who taught them, and now some of those people are questioning the basis of that premise. You have a good point that the teacher should not just answer these questions as though from unquestionable authority. They are teachers, not clergy.

Your other questions go to what is sin, and what is normal. Should a student ask, "Is being gay a sin?" it should have pretty much the same answer as "Is eating shellfish a sin?" First, you have to determine what is sin. If sin is defined by the bible, then the answer is, "We don't teach Biblical beliefs in school." If sin is defined by the harm it does to others, then the answer is, "What harm is someone causing by being gay?"

The question "Is being gay just as normal as being straight?" should have pretty much the same answer as "Is being black just as normal as being white?"
  #197  
Old 05-18-2020, 01:32 PM
DrDeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oredigger77 View Post
First off I want to apologize. I've been studying for the GRE and that wasn't what I meant at all. I meant GED.

Secondly, I think you could draw up a fair system of jail for all. Say a home schooler parents kid fails their GED the parents goes to jail for 10 years (13 school years × 9 months per year). ......r.
Jail? No, no jail.

But give a Homeschooled kid a test on reading and math, say at 3rd grade. If kids cant pass 2nd grade level, kid cant be homeschooled. Another test @ 5th and 7th. Some science there @7, kid should understand evolution as a basic concept. And the US Constitution.

Last edited by DrDeth; 05-18-2020 at 01:32 PM.
  #198  
Old 05-18-2020, 02:44 PM
Ruken is offline
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Hey, k9, my posts were rude and I apologise for that and appreciate the thought your put into yours. It's an interesting topic and I will put more time into mine as I am able around other obligations.
  #199  
Old 05-18-2020, 06:33 PM
DMC is offline
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The homeschooling movement has their very own NRA, the HSLDA (Home School Legal Defense Association). At first glance, it looks like they simply want to protect your rights to home school your children. Their about page says things like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HSLDA
Every child is different and should have the freedom to learn in a safe, loving environment at their own pace.

We partner with our 80,000 member families, donors, homeschool leaders, legislators, and others who want to protect this freedom.
I take no issue with any of that. I sort of infer that they are speaking of parents wanting to teach their special needs children in a home environment. Cool.

Except that it turns out that only a tiny minority (16%) of home school parents list special needs as one of the reasons that they are home schooling. The vast majority on the other hand list having a desire to promote moral or religious instruction.

Now, back to the HSLDA. It turns out that they have their own online academy. It lets you browse their courses, so I checked out the Math section and went from there to the Physics page. Looking through the description sounded like a pretty standard physics class. Then I made my first mistake; I clicked on the official booklist (PDF) link. Turns out there is just one book, "Physics for Christian Schools" by Bob Jones University. What in the fuck is Christian Physics? Is it like particle physics, but only three particles?

Now that I realized what was behind that facade, I knew where to look next, Biology, and it did not disappoint! Below the description they have two links. The first is an intro from the course developer herself, Master Teacher Dr. Kris Mayo. It's short, so I'll give you the full transcript:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Mayo (but highlights are my own
Here at the HSLDA Online Academy, we are pleased to offer an in-depth college preparatory biology course for high school students. Biology is the study of living organisms. Here at the academy we are passionate about helping students learn more about their Creator by studying his creation. They learn how to read, research, and relate to the material through assigned readings and exercises, instruction, discussion, and hands-on experimentation microscopy and dissections. We invite you to prayerfully consider how the HSLDA Online Academy can partner with you and your student in your home education journey.
Okay, they probably are going to skip over that whole evolution thing and focus on dissecting frogs. Then I clicked on the second link, a (3 minutes and 5 seconds long) sample clip from a live class session. HOLY FUCK! Keep in mind that this clip of a discussion is the portion of the entire course that they chose to highlight and share with potential customers. It's way too fucking inane and insane to try to follow long enough to get a transcript, so choose to view it or not, it's up to you. If I had to summarize it, it boils down to the likelihood of tossing a bunch of car parts (which were the result of an explosion, for fuck's sake) in the air and having them spontaneously form a fully functioning automobile. If this is the shit that even the legitimate organizations are peddling, then we need standardized testing of some sort to make sure these poor kids aren't just wasting everyone else's time when they hound their Biology 101 professor about the the farcical notion that eyes are due to natural selection. College preparatory my ass.

The longer this thread goes on, the more I learn and what I'm learning isn't positive for my understanding of the home schooling movement.
  #200  
Old 05-18-2020, 08:38 PM
Kimstu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMC View Post
The longer this thread goes on, the more I learn and what I'm learning isn't positive for my understanding of the home schooling movement.
Nitpick: I'd venture to guess that on the contrary, what you're learning in this thread is indeed quite positive for your understanding of the homeschooling movement, in the sense that it's increasing your understanding of the details of what it's about and what goes on in it.

What it may not be positive for is your respect and trust concerning the homeschooling movement.

But that's the homeschooling movement's own fault. Pace Urbanredneck, all the available evidence indicates that anti-education religious types who play fast and loose with scientific facts in the name of their preferred ideology are not merely a tiny minority of homeschoolers, but a substantial and influential bloc in the movement.

(Repeating once again that yes, I am aware that there are lots of highly competent and responsible homeschooling parents out there who do a great job of producing very well-educated students. The point is not to falsely assert that there aren't any "good stories" of homeschooling: rather, the point is to refrain from just credulously assuming that the whole homeschooling phenomenon is almost entirely made up of "good stories" while the "bad stories" of abuse and ignorance are a negligible minority.)

Last edited by Kimstu; 05-18-2020 at 08:39 PM.
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