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  #51  
Old 05-14-2020, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
We disagree on this point. I think trying an insult free Great Debates would be a worthwhile experiment. Articulating arguments, rather than slinging mud, seems a very helpful progression to me.
I have always found GD threads to be very well behaved for the most part. Posters tend not to insult each other directly. Third parties, or subjects of the debate don't normally get that kind of courtesy, nor have there been rules to that effect. What people are suggesting is an entirely new level of etiquette. My personal opinion is that it isn't necessary for good debate, nor is it a problem that needs solving. But as has already been pointed out, 'Of course I would say that... I say disrespectful things about public persona who have shown themselves to be undeserving of respect.'
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  #52  
Old 05-14-2020, 07:27 PM
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The rule on hate speech as posted in the Pit:

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No hate speech

If you say hateful and/or racist things, you may get warned or banned. Some slurs are likely to be viewed as hate speech when used as insults, some aren't. No, we aren't going to give you a list. Our goal is not to restrict any and all speech which could be viewed by someone as offensive, but simply keep a modicum of decency, even here.
I generally include sexual orientation and gender in there, also. However, I don't consider "bitch" or "cunt" to necessarily be hate speech. I think there's an argument to be made that "bitch" is a gendered pair with "dick," like how "waitress" is a gendered pair to "waiter," and doesn't necessarily indicate group-level animosity the way racial slurs do. And, of course, the general offensiveness of "cunt" varies greatly by geographic region. So neither of these terms is strictly verboten. However, context matters, and the excessive use of these terms ("cunt" in particular) or using them in ways that expressly disparage women in general would be open to moderation.
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:01 PM
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Wouldn’t “bitch” be a gendered pair with “dog” (as the Brits use the canine terms), and “cunt” with “dick?”

Speaking logically rather than emotionally. I call people “dicks” all the time, but am VERY cautious with “cunt,” so as to avoid getting a knee in the “balls.”
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  #54  
Old 05-14-2020, 08:04 PM
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Hate speech isnt allowed in The Pit if I understand the rules.
The examples you gave were certainly about a poster hating specific things and people, but that's not what "hate speech" is. If there's something in those quotes you think qualifies as hate speech, point it out, because I'm not seeing it.
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Old 05-15-2020, 02:00 AM
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However, context matters, and the excessive use of these terms ("cunt" in particular) or using them in ways that expressly disparage women in general would be open to moderation.
I like that. I think it's a good way to deal with the fact that the word means something different in different English-speaking regions. If this has been stated before, I was unaware of it.

I wonder what the OP thinks.

BTW, I did argue how dick and bitch are not equivalents, as the former is never used to imply that a woman is acting more like a man. Hence the former is seen as less offensive.
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Old 05-15-2020, 07:41 AM
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Speaking logically, you're correct, Ukulele Ike. But of course, we're not talking logic here; we're talking humans.
  #57  
Old 05-15-2020, 09:04 AM
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I never took you for the type who wears pearls.
I personally don't care what words people use to insult others because none of them hurt me. That's my privilege as a white, heterosexual, gender-typical male.

I'd rather you just say "I don't want limits on insulting people in Great Debates because I might feel the need to call Melania Trump a cunt, and I don't want to get warned for it"
  #58  
Old 05-15-2020, 09:19 AM
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I think that the mods seem serious about addressing the problem of misogyny here, but I think that as the board's culture changes, we all have to examine our behavior. It hasn't been a conservative poster problem, it's been a Straight Dope problem. I can't imagine anyone who's been here for any length of time couldn't go back and find language that they regret using.
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Old 05-15-2020, 12:27 PM
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I generally include sexual orientation and gender in there, also. However, I don't consider "bitch" or "cunt" to necessarily be hate speech. I think there's an argument to be made that "bitch" is a gendered pair with "dick," like how "waitress" is a gendered pair to "waiter," and doesn't necessarily indicate group-level animosity the way racial slurs do. And, of course, the general offensiveness of "cunt" varies greatly by geographic region. So neither of these terms is strictly verboten. However, context matters, and the excessive use of these terms ("cunt" in particular) or using them in ways that expressly disparage women in general would be open to moderation.
Yes, it is all about how the general discourse evolves in its totality. It's an interesting thing, once upon a time, certain words were "unprintable" or "not used in mixed company" but would be spoken in private conversation. Then there was a move to let it all hang out. Then has come the realization that the problem's not the words but the beliefs and attitudes they represent.

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I think that the mods seem serious about addressing the problem of misogyny here, but I think that as the board's culture changes, we all have to examine our behavior. It hasn't been a conservative poster problem, it's been a Straight Dope problem. I can't imagine anyone who's been here for any length of time couldn't go back and find language that they regret using.
True. Coming up to 21 years on this board obviously the standards have changed and WE have changed. It is something we have to take into consideration and yes, at some point there will be expressions that are no longer acceptable in public discourse and that is not "wronging" us in any way. There are things 1999 JRD would say that 2020 JRD finds no longer clever or cute, and things 1999 JRD believed that he has come to no longer believe in over that time. OTOH we also have to be careful about wanting to deliberately engineer that cultural change rather than having it parallel that of the greater society.
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Old 05-15-2020, 12:37 PM
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I think that big events like the banning of a long time poster stir stuff up and that's ok. It's a good time to reevaluate entrenched attitudes. The same thing happened when Starving Artist was banned, there was a lot of soul searching.
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Old 05-15-2020, 12:49 PM
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I think that big events like the banning of a long time poster stir stuff up and that's ok. It's a good time to reevaluate entrenched attitudes. The same thing happened when Starving Artist was banned, there was a lot of soul searching.
I agree with this.
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Old 05-15-2020, 12:52 PM
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The examples you gave were certainly about a poster hating specific things and people, but that's not what "hate speech" is. If there's something in those quotes you think qualifies as hate speech, point it out, because I'm not seeing it.
I disagree. Hate speech is when you lump a bunch of people and make disparaging and hateful statements about them. Dehumanize them. Its a step in the process of committing violence against them.
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Old 05-15-2020, 01:03 PM
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I disagree. Hate speech is when you lump a bunch of people and make disparaging and hateful statements about them. Dehumanize them. Its a step in the process of committing violence against them.
This is interesting. Would you say "Men are pigs!" is hate speech?
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Old 05-15-2020, 01:15 PM
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I personally don't care what words people use to insult others because none of them hurt me. That's my privilege as a white, heterosexual, gender-typical male.

I'd rather you just say "I don't want limits on insulting people in Great Debates because I might feel the need to call Melania Trump a cunt, and I don't want to get warned for it"
Seems like we have a lot in common. However, maybe we should both give it a rest before people start to talk about us getting a room. What do you say?
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  #65  
Old 05-15-2020, 01:17 PM
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I disagree. Hate speech is when you lump a bunch of people and make disparaging and hateful statements about them. Dehumanize them. Its a step in the process of committing violence against them.
I didn't lump. No lumping. It could not have been any more specifically targeted.
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  #66  
Old 05-15-2020, 01:23 PM
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Seems like we have a lot in common. However, maybe we should both give it a rest before people start to talk about us getting a room. What do you say?
*** scratches "Get a room with QuickSilver" off of my end-of-quarantine bucket list.
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Old 05-15-2020, 02:20 PM
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  #68  
Old 05-15-2020, 03:43 PM
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The point of slinging slurs at other people (not say slamming your hand in the car door)are to make a comment personally demeaning and vulgar. Regardless of context saying punt that motherfucking cunt back to that son of a bitch, whore son coxksucker?
Is that an honest expression of emotion when I the heat of a verbal exchange? Find better words to express yourself.
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Old 05-16-2020, 09:44 AM
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The rule on hate speech as posted in the Pit:



I generally include sexual orientation and gender in there, also. However, I don't consider "bitch" or "cunt" to necessarily be hate speech. I think there's an argument to be made that "bitch" is a gendered pair with "dick," like how "waitress" is a gendered pair to "waiter," and doesn't necessarily indicate group-level animosity the way racial slurs do. And, of course, the general offensiveness of "cunt" varies greatly by geographic region. So neither of these terms is strictly verboten. However, context matters, and the excessive use of these terms ("cunt" in particular) or using them in ways that expressly disparage women in general would be open to moderation.

I find this truly insulting. This is an obvious statement that gender slurs are not taken as seriously as racial slurs. Why?

The two most offensive misogynistic slurs are somehow not as bad as ďharpyĒ? One must have context for these two slurs because reasons.

I cringe and/or wince whenever these two words are used in any context because they are used so casually without thought as to how they will be received. They are hate words. Period.

Drop the n word into ANY conversation (in ANY context) and itís like a bomb being dropped. These two hate words get not even a double take.

There seems to be this excuse that comes up often: these two words have very common usage so we canít just ban words that are commonly used. Iíd like to remind people that the n word was very commonly used once upon a time until people started recognizing how awful it was and started monitoring the use of it. Why is this any different? Why arenít we doing this? Because itís still okay by and large to degrade women. Itís just not that important because itís about women. Part of the problem is that these two words ARE so casually and commonly used. If we donít bother to call it out they will continue to be casually and commonly used.

It really makes it obvious misogyny is just not as important as other kinds of bigotry on the SDMB.
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Old 05-16-2020, 12:42 PM
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I find this truly insulting. This is an obvious statement that gender slurs are not taken as seriously as racial slurs. Why?

The two most offensive misogynistic slurs are somehow not as bad as ďharpyĒ? One must have context for these two slurs because reasons.

I cringe and/or wince whenever these two words are used in any context because they are used so casually without thought as to how they will be received. They are hate words. Period.

Drop the n word into ANY conversation (in ANY context) and itís like a bomb being dropped. These two hate words get not even a double take.

There seems to be this excuse that comes up often: these two words have very common usage so we canít just ban words that are commonly used. Iíd like to remind people that the n word was very commonly used once upon a time until people started recognizing how awful it was and started monitoring the use of it. Why is this any different? Why arenít we doing this? Because itís still okay by and large to degrade women. Itís just not that important because itís about women. Part of the problem is that these two words ARE so casually and commonly used. If we donít bother to call it out they will continue to be casually and commonly used.

It really makes it obvious misogyny is just not as important as other kinds of bigotry on the SDMB.
What are some other words that ought to be removed from the common english lexicon for fear they may offend someone in some way?
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  #71  
Old 05-17-2020, 08:51 AM
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What are some other words that ought to be removed from the common english lexicon for fear they may offend someone in some way?
Just the hate words. Until they are no longer commonly used. Like the we did with all of these:

Jap
Kike
Chink
Injun
Nigger
Spic
Beaner
Spear chucker
rag head
kraut

I could go on.

Last edited by Modesty Blaise; 05-17-2020 at 08:54 AM. Reason: And don't forget faggot and dike
  #72  
Old 05-17-2020, 08:55 AM
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Just the hate words. Until they are no longer commonly used. Like the we did with all of these:

Jap
Kike
Chink
Injun
Nigger
Spic
Beaner
Spear chucker
rag head
kraut

I could go on.

Don't forget faggot and dike.

I messed up my edit
  #73  
Old 05-17-2020, 09:01 AM
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What are some other words that ought to be removed from the common english lexicon for fear they may offend someone in some way?
The "for fear they may offend someone in some way" phrase has a real edge of contempt in it. I hope you don't mean it that way.

The disdain and even outrage manifested by those who find it infuriating that their freedom to disparage whole classes of people who are less privileged than they are may be infringed, is so exhaustingly widespread that I may have misinterpreted here.
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Old 05-17-2020, 10:04 AM
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What are some other words that ought to be removed from the common english lexicon for fear they may offend someone in some way?
The "for fear they may offend someone in some way" phrase has a real edge of contempt in it. I hope you don't mean it that way.

The disdain and even outrage manifested by those who find it infuriating that their freedom to disparage whole classes of people who are less privileged than they are may be infringed, is so exhaustingly widespread that I may have misinterpreted here.
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Old 05-17-2020, 10:44 AM
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@Modesty Blaise - No argument at all with regards to the words you listed. I didn't think it would need to be said that those are clearly terms that should never be used to disparage others. I thought we were talking about more commonly used swear words. I realize many of the cuss words commonly used are gender based. I'll spare everyone the grouped list. That's what I thought we were talking about. Which of those words, in addition to the two in the OP, would you recommend removing from common use?

@Ufreida - I hope I've clarified my earlier statement.
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  #76  
Old 05-17-2020, 11:54 AM
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I find this truly insulting. This is an obvious statement that gender slurs are not taken as seriously as racial slurs. Why?
Well, you just quoted the reason, but to recapitulate, I don't think those words are collective insults the way racial slurs are.

Quote:
The two most offensive misogynistic slurs are somehow not as bad as ďharpyĒ? One must have context for these two slurs because reasons.
No, they're definitely worse than "harpy," but the question I'm answering is specific to the Pit's rules, which are very different around what is and is not acceptable language than in other forums.

Quote:
I cringe and/or wince whenever these two words are used in any context because they are used so casually without thought as to how they will be received. They are hate words. Period.

Drop the n word into ANY conversation (in ANY context) and itís like a bomb being dropped. These two hate words get not even a double take.

There seems to be this excuse that comes up often: these two words have very common usage so we canít just ban words that are commonly used. Iíd like to remind people that the n word was very commonly used once upon a time until people started recognizing how awful it was and started monitoring the use of it. Why is this any different? Why arenít we doing this? Because itís still okay by and large to degrade women. Itís just not that important because itís about women. Part of the problem is that these two words ARE so casually and commonly used. If we donít bother to call it out they will continue to be casually and commonly used.
Right, and I try to moderate based on contemporary social standards on how these words are used. I don't try to moderate to create new social standards on how they're used.


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It really makes it obvious misogyny is just not as important as other kinds of bigotry on the SDMB.
I think it's more that not everyone has the same ideas about what constitutes "obvious misogyny."
  #77  
Old 05-17-2020, 11:59 AM
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I think it's more that not everyone has the same ideas about what constitutes "obvious misogyny."
When determining what the majority opinion is as to what constitutes "obvious misogyny", do you factor in that the vast majority here are of the male persuasion?

Last edited by Czarcasm; 05-17-2020 at 12:00 PM.
  #78  
Old 05-17-2020, 12:05 PM
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When determining what the majority opinion is as to what constitutes "obvious misogyny", do you factor in that the vast majority here are of the male persuasion?
As if all women have the same opinion about what is misogynistic.
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Old 05-17-2020, 12:08 PM
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When determining what the majority opinion is as to what constitutes "obvious misogyny", do you factor in that the vast majority here are of the male persuasion?
I'm not using the SDMB as the metric for that determination, I'm using the opinions of women I know in real life about how problematic those words are.
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Old 05-17-2020, 12:09 PM
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As if all women have the same opinion about what is misogynistic.
I did not say or even imply that.
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Old 05-17-2020, 12:10 PM
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I'm not using the SDMB as the metric for that determination, I'm using the opinions of women I know in real life about how problematic those words are.
Thank you.
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Old 05-17-2020, 12:49 PM
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When determining what the majority opinion is as to what constitutes "obvious misogyny", do you factor in that the vast majority here are of the male persuasion?
I realize SDMB has a predominantly American membership, but not exclusively so. That's worth considering as well in how certain words are commonly used/interpreted.
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Old 05-17-2020, 01:40 PM
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I realize SDMB has a predominantly American membership, but not exclusively so. That's worth considering as well in how certain words are commonly used/interpreted.
I don't think that this is a significant consideration. I was born in the U.K., and obviously I'm aware that our usage of c*** is different. It has a vastly broader range, it's just as often applied to men, and used among male friends can be so mild that it's a term of endearment. But the wide U.K. range of meaning does extend (according to context) to being severely offensive and misogynistic, so the range does incorporate U.S. usage. And I think most Brits are aware of the difference in U.S. usage.

So if a majority-U.S. board were to decide to ban the word based on U.S.-centric cultural norms, it's not as though it would be particularly difficult for non-U.S. members to understand and to adapt to that etiquette.

Last edited by Riemann; 05-17-2020 at 01:42 PM.
  #84  
Old 05-17-2020, 01:52 PM
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This thread makes it clear why we need women on the moderation team.
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Old 05-17-2020, 02:14 PM
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I don't think that this is a significant consideration. I was born in the U.K., and obviously I'm aware that our usage of c*** is different. It has a vastly broader range, it's just as often applied to men, and used among male friends can be so mild that it's a term of endearment. But the wide U.K. range of meaning does extend (according to context) to being severely offensive and misogynistic, so the range does incorporate U.S. usage. And I think most Brits are aware of the difference in U.S. usage.

So if a majority-U.S. board were to decide to ban the word based on U.S.-centric cultural norms, it's not as though it would be particularly difficult for non-U.S. members to understand and to adapt to that etiquette.
I'd prefer to focus on changing attitudes than banning words. We've seen enough perfectly benign language and symbols be turned into things meant to offend and signal those who are like minded. That just might have the desired effect of certain words falling out of use.
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Old 05-17-2020, 02:15 PM
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This thread makes it clear why we need women on the moderation team.
That can only be a very good thing.
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  #87  
Old 05-17-2020, 06:17 PM
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This thread makes it clear why we need women on the moderation team.
Last time I asked about new mods (including, presumably, women on the mod team), they said that they're waiting for the new software, so they won't have to teach the new mods a software that's about to go away.

But who knows when that's going to be? To the staff, I'd suggest going ahead and getting the new mods -- maybe they don't need to become experts in the software, but at least they could look at posts and point out the ones that need moderation to the other mods (which I guess we can all do already by reporting, but I think it would be different coming from from newly empowered women mods), and take part in the evaluation of other potentially problematic posts and posters.
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Old 05-18-2020, 05:41 AM
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I don’t think that we can wait until there is new software; will there be any women posters left by then to recruit as mods? Not if we keep being so casually dismissive of what they have to say as we are here.
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Old 05-18-2020, 07:46 AM
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Please let me know when I have permission to typing in AAVE, senpai!

Ratchet bitches.
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Old 05-18-2020, 08:13 AM
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There is no organization sitting around deciding which words are acceptable and which aren't.* Language constantly evolves. Right now, here in 2020, we are in the middle of a pretty heavy shift in the way we use language to describe other genders, other races, other religions. A lot of stuff is in flux and some words may be 'spicy' in one part of the world and vile somewhere else.

But the attempt to create glossaries of anathema words is a disingenuous way of fighting natural linguistic change, because it sets up these meaningless little battles about whether one insult is " qualitatively different" than another insult.

Our rules around here are not opaque. Don't be a jerk. If you're being a jerk, you'll be told and will be given the opportunity to stop being a jerk. If you continue to be a jerk, you'll be asked to go be a jerk somewhere else. And since moderating is done by human beings with human foibles using standards created by human being with human foibles, it will never, never, ever be done with anything approaching parity.

If you're writing a post and think, hmm, maybe this post will make me sound like a jerk even though I'm not directly insulting another poster, maybe go ahead and rewrite the post. Maybe find a way to say what you want to say without using words that skirt the not-very-fine line between polite language and being an asshole.

If you find yourself absolutely incapable of having that little mental conversation with yourself, I guess keep doing what you're doing and accept that you'll eventually get banned.

I've seen a few posters throw around the idea of "community standards" with contempt, like it's a codeword for internet gestapo looking for excuses to get rid of those who don't conform to the groupthink.

As usual, as always, there is an XKCD for that.

*unless you're French

Last edited by Johnny Bravo; 05-18-2020 at 08:13 AM.
  #91  
Old 05-18-2020, 08:47 AM
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* Language constantly evolves. Right now, here in 2020, we are
Brovo, time is spicy. It's relative to space, and culture, too. When there's more than two objects, everything is a social construct.

It's 2020, 6770, 5780, 4718, 2773....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ous-calendars/
  #92  
Old 05-18-2020, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by road_lobo View Post
Brovo, time is spicy. It's relative to space, and culture, too. When there's more than two objects, everything is a social construct.

It's 2020, 6770, 5780, 4718, 2773....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ous-calendars/
wat?
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  #93  
Old 05-18-2020, 02:39 PM
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I'm not using the SDMB as the metric for that determination, I'm using the opinions of women I know in real life about how problematic those words are.
Sounds reasonable, while the current criteria for moderation last.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
This thread makes it clear why we need women on the moderation team.
Indeed. And I must agree that "wait until we do not need to retrain" is not necessarily the best approach, considering that this has been a recurring issue for quite a while and I don't see it going away any time soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Bravo View Post
Language constantly evolves. Right now, here in 2020, we are in the middle of a pretty heavy shift in the way we use language to describe other genders, other races, other religions. A lot of stuff is in flux and some words may be 'spicy' in one part of the world and vile somewhere else.

But the attempt to create glossaries of anathema words is a disingenuous way of fighting natural linguistic change, because it sets up these meaningless little battles about whether one insult is " qualitatively different" than another insult.

Our rules around here are not opaque. Don't be a jerk. If you're being a jerk, you'll be told and will be given the opportunity to stop being a jerk. If you continue to be a jerk, you'll be asked to go be a jerk somewhere else. And since moderating is done by human beings with human foibles using standards created by human being with human foibles, it will never, never, ever be done with anything approaching parity.

If you're writing a post and think, hmm, maybe this post will make me sound like a jerk even though I'm not directly insulting another poster, maybe go ahead and rewrite the post. Maybe find a way to say what you want to say without using words that skirt the not-very-fine line between polite language and being an asshole.

If you find yourself absolutely incapable of having that little mental conversation with yourself, I guess keep doing what you're doing and accept that you'll eventually get banned.
Well stated. It's not simply "don't say wordX", it's "ask yourself: do you HAVE to say wordX? why are you inclined to say wordX? is there a better way to say what you feel?"
  #94  
Old 05-18-2020, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by road_lobo View Post
Brovo, time is spicy. It's relative to space, and culture, too. When there's more than two objects, everything is a social construct.

It's 2020, 6770, 5780, 4718, 2773....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ous-calendars/
While this is technically correct, this is a U.S. based message board, and while we have members from all over the world, when someone says "here in 2020" everyone is well aware of exactly what that means and what calendar system it refers to. This sort of pedantry is completely irrelevant to the topic being discussed, and given that there is no confusion at all regarding the date mentioned and the meaning expressed, serves absolutely no purpose. Do not do this again in ATMB.
  #95  
Old 05-19-2020, 12:50 PM
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And what about sirens?!? Won't someone think of the sirens!



As a retired E.M.T., I find it offensive that I'm compelled to use the phrase " Aural Attenuated Amplified Alert ", or AAAA, instead of good ole Siren.

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  #96  
Old 05-19-2020, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by road_lobo View Post
Brovo, time is spicy. It's relative to space, and culture, too. When there's more than two objects, everything is a social construct.



It's 2020, 6770, 5780, 4718, 2773....



https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ous-calendars/
I like it!!!

This Board could do with a bit more free verse.



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  #97  
Old 05-19-2020, 03:16 PM
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Well, you just quoted the reason, but to recapitulate, I don't think those words are collective insults the way racial slurs are.
You'd be wrong - in particular about the c-word - but I tried to make that point fifteen years ago and got the same "it isn't as bad" answer. It hasn't gotten better over the past decade and a half.

And we wonder why so many of our female posters don't stick.
  #98  
Old 05-19-2020, 03:42 PM
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You'd be wrong - in particular about the c-word - but I tried to make that point fifteen years ago and got the same "it isn't as bad" answer. It hasn't gotten better over the past decade and a half.

And we wonder why so many of our female posters don't stick.
It comes down to some posters just want to use the word without having to feel bad about their behavior.
  #99  
Old 05-19-2020, 03:43 PM
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You'd be wrong - in particular about the c-word - but I tried to make that point fifteen years ago and got the same "it isn't as bad" answer. It hasn't gotten better over the past decade and a half.

And we wonder why so many of our female posters don't stick.
Agree 100% on the c-word. It's an ugly, ugly word and, IMHO, should be treated the same as other slurs.

Bitch is a different word that I could see argued, in good faith, both ways. The problem is, as always, that the moderators are not being seen as having "good faith" by being dismissive and condescending for years.

So cunt and bitches = AOK

Women on the mod team - Woah Nelly! Let's not get carried away. We should pace ourselves on this one.
  #100  
Old 05-20-2020, 01:53 PM
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In the Pit, calling a female public figure a "cunt" and a "bitch" is just "bad language", and you're an asshole if you make a fuss abouth it. So saith Colibri (not in official mod capacity, of course).

But as far as I know, the hate speech restriction isn't lifted for the Pit. I'm pretty sure if you use the N-- word to describe an African-American public figure, not a member of the Boards, there would be a swift correction, even if it is in the Pit. And well there should. That's not just "bad language".
It has been mentioned before but the incidence and effect of curse words vary by region. For example some 2013-2014 data collected from Twitter suggests cunt is the second most popular invective in the state of Maine.

I take the view that no mere word should be so verboten as to be considered hate speech in all contexts. I also think you misread Colibri's post. He said (in the Pit) "Hijacking a Pit thread over bad language makes you look like a complete asshole." He did not say hijacking a pit thread over hate speech makes you look like a complete asshole. Your proof by contradiction only makes sense when we start from the premise that Siam Sam's remarks constitute misogyny and therefore hate speech.

I don't think calling Carolyn Goodman a "stupid bitch" or "stupid cunt" amounts to misogyny. If it helps you understand, my working definition of misogyny is hatred of women because they are women. Hating one woman because "she is a bitch" would not necessarily be misogyny. "I hate all women because all women are bitches" would be misogyny. Siam Sam's language can reasonably be interpreted as an expression of his hatred of Carolyn Goodman, but I fail to see a reason to assume he hates her because she is a woman as opposed to her actions as mayor of Las Vegas.

Neither do I consider all hateful speech to be hate speech. I say hate speech has to show hatred because of some protected trait, for example on the basis of sex, gender, race, etc. If you hate a black man because he punched your wife, that hatred is not racist. It is not hate speech to verbalize that hatred, in my opinion, not even if you use slurs, so long as it is clear that you are disparaging the single man and not the whole class of people. If you hate the mayor of Las Vegas because she wants to reopen the city in the midst of an epidemic, then in my opinion it is not necessarily hate speech to verbalize your hatred of her. Not even if you use words like "bitch" or "cunt".

~Max
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