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  #51  
Old 05-16-2020, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
NOT accusing you, necessarily
Perhaps you misread my post? I acknowledged exactly this; that the UK also has a sordid history, to say the least.

But anyway, it would be something akin to the tu quoque fallacy (but worse) if we were to suggest that only people coming from a country with a comparatively clean history were allowed to criticize others.

But I think you would agree with me that history is not so relevant as what's happening now anyway. And the current US administration is right there with the Philippines and Brazil as becoming increasingly fascist every day. Heck Trump's arguably the inspiration for those leaders.

Last edited by Mijin; 05-16-2020 at 04:11 PM.
  #52  
Old 05-16-2020, 04:14 PM
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On the contrary, vaccine science should be disseminated as widely as possible, as the shared information may speed vaccine development elsewhere. It doesn't matter who crosses the line first, we all win.
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Originally Posted by elbows View Post
The fastest way for the world to come up with a vaccine is to openly share research between scientists. Which is exactly what is occurring, the entire world over.

The political pissing around about who gets initial production or how it will/should be distributed, is just that, POLITICAL PISSING.
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Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
No.

In fact: HELL NO

Vaccine research should be open source (with strong copy-left protections). I'm typing this from a big-pharma computer, so I wont lax linguistic about the industry, but it should not be secret or protected by intellectual property law at all. Especially considering how much of the pharmaceutical industry in general is based directly on government funded research.
All of the above. Partly because, as has been said above, our chances of actually getting a vaccine, one that works and doesn't itself kill people, are massively improved if researchers are freely talking to each other. And partly because:

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Originally Posted by Andy L View Post
"Should we keep our hole-plugging techniques secret from the people on the other side of the boat?"
it really doesn't work, even aside from all moral issues, to let a disease of this sort run rampant in some parts of the world and think the rest of the world will escape it.

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Originally Posted by Declan View Post
t you dont want China to grab an Alpha release of the vaccine, as going to full production may cause a severe reaction to distribution of the vaccine, if that version was a failed version that kills more people than it cures. Think Anti-vaxxers on steroids.
I'm a whole lot more worried right now that Trump will force something untested, or even something that's known to be hazardous, into general release than I am that China will.
  #53  
Old 05-17-2020, 06:31 AM
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Back to the original question.

A pandemic in the modern world is a bit like leaves in the autumn. If you cleared only your own garden of leaves then you'll have a nice clean lawn. But if you refused to lend your rake to your neighbours then it won't be long before the swirling wind blows the leaves right back in again.
  #54  
Old 05-17-2020, 08:24 AM
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"Should we keep our hole-plugging techniques secret from the people on the other side of the boat?"

A disease that ravages other countries in the world will affect Americans even if we have a vaccine - there will always be people that the vaccine doesn't work for or who can not receive a vaccine for medical reasons. For that matter, it is possible that a vaccinated person who would not get the disease if exposed to one carrier would get the disease if he encounters many carriers - so it's in everyone's interest to reduce the total number of carriers worldwide.
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
it really doesn't work, even aside from all moral issues, to let a disease of this sort run rampant in some parts of the world and think the rest of the world will escape it.
I hope it's clear that this is the point of my analogy.
  #55  
Old 05-17-2020, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Voyager
Anyone using "Trump Derangement Syndrome" to defend him has lost.
TDS blunts legitimate criticism of Trump by making his critics in general look ridiculous. Anyone who thinks mentioning this problem is "defending" Trump has completely missed the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust
'm a whole lot more worried right now that Trump will force something untested, or even something that's known to be hazardous, into general release than I am that China will.
It's a legitimate concern based on his history that Trump would tout a relatively untried vaccine. On the other hand, he has a history of being suspicious of vaccines* and there are adults in the room and in the scientific community who'd clamp down on premature vaccine release. Presidents in the U.S. really do not have the magical powers some assume.
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
And the current US administration is right there with the Philippines and Brazil as becoming increasingly fascist every day.
Beware the hours of darkness when the powers of evil are exalted.

*Trump might have RFK Jr. whispering in his ear that with general release of a coronavirus vaccine, the entire country could suddenly turn autistic.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 05-17-2020 at 09:05 AM.
  #56  
Old 05-17-2020, 09:43 AM
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Presidents in the U.S. really do not have the magical powers some assume.
In my earlier post I listed out 4 examples of actions taken by the Trump administration where you can be damn sure "adults in the room" would have suggested a different option. (And of course we can list plenty more; Trump is not the topic of this thread so I deliberately just made a single sentence of a few things that came to mind).
The checks and balances have gone and Trump is basically operating with impunity at this point. Especially since the whole GOP party decided to join with him in obstructing justice in the impeachment "trial".

Quote:
Beware the hours of darkness when the powers of evil are exalted.
I am not using "fascist" as a pejorative. The word has a concrete definition and the actions of the current US government are objectively fascist in at least some respects.
e.g. ultranationalism, sowing mistrust of academics, eroding checks on power and moving toward dictatorial powers, racial superiority / nativism, denigration of the press etc. Does any of this sound familiar?

Last edited by Mijin; 05-17-2020 at 09:44 AM.
  #57  
Old 05-17-2020, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy L View Post
I hope it's clear that this is the point of my analogy.
It was to me, anyway; I was quoting you to agree with you, not to disagree. Apologies if anybody took it the other way.
  #58  
Old 05-17-2020, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
I am not using "fascist" as a pejorative.
Quote:
The word has a concrete definition and the actions of the current US government are objectively fascist in at least some respects.
e.g. ultranationalism, sowing mistrust of academics, eroding checks on power and moving toward dictatorial powers, racial superiority / nativism, denigration of the press etc. Does any of this sound familiar?
Your main problem is that you confuse Trump's yapping with significant practical effect.

"Moving toward dictatorial powers" could be applied to multiple Presidents in the past century, particularly in the realm of getting the U.S. into armed conflicts without a congressional war authorization. As for "denigration of the press", that does sound familiar.

"...is (Trump) the menace, the threat to the very freedom of the press that we've come to know and disrespect?"

"Not by a country mile. His predecessor is."

'The Obama administration ... declared open war on the press in a take-no-prisoners kind of way.'
- Michael Enright

"In fact, Barack Obama may be one of the greatest enemies of a free press in American history. Much more than his successor."

"Donald J. Trump may have made rumblings and grumblings, threatening all kinds of confrontation. But he has never done anything but talk."

"The Obama administration, on the other hand, declared open war on the press in a take-no-prisoners kind of way."

"Obama's justice department tapped reporters' phones, dragged reporters into court, and prosecuted three times as many cases targeting leakers than all previous administrations combined."...

"Len Downie of The Post wrote: "The administration's war on leaks and other efforts to control information are the most aggressive I've seen since the Nixon administration.""

http://cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition...ssay-1.5121514
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blo...stomping-press

Sloppy talk about and bogus characterizations of "fascism" are not so very different from blasting one's enemies as "Nazis". It cheapens the term and insults actual victims of fascism.
  #59  
Old 05-17-2020, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
It was to me, anyway; I was quoting you to agree with you, not to disagree. Apologies if anybody took it the other way.
No problem. Just wanted to make sure.
  #60  
Old 05-17-2020, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
Your main problem is that you confuse Trump's yapping with significant practical effect.
No, I said explicitly that I don't give a shit about Trump's tweets and gave examples of specific actions on his part. You're choosing to ignore such examples because they don't fit a narrative that you wish to believe; that Trump is merely a harmless idiot.

And, you're deflecting: you scoffed at calling the trump administration being fascist but when I indicated ways that it is, your response is a couple op eds about Obama.
Let's assume they're both correct, and furthermore that it was all Obama's doing.
The best we can say is "Ok, Obama's administration was fascist in at least one way too (if wiretapping and rejecting FOI requests counts as fascist)"
That's not a refutation.
  #61  
Old 05-18-2020, 12:41 AM
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The thing about so-called "Trump Derangement Syndrome" is that it is far more prevalent in the strawman community than in the actual human one. If your diagnosis of TDS rests on an imagined extrapolation to exaggerated statements that the supposed TDS-sufferer never actually made, then all you've got is another strawman case.
  #62  
Old 05-18-2020, 08:38 AM
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No, I said explicitly that I don't give a shit about Trump's tweets and gave examples of specific actions on his part. You're choosing to ignore such examples because they don't fit a narrative that you wish to believe; that Trump is merely a harmless idiot.
A range of possibilities exists between "harmless idiot" and "fascist" that you might wish to explore. Nuance, fella.

There's a subgenre on the Left (more popular in Britain?) which insists that whatever it doesn't like is "fascist" or leading there. Google Boris Johnson and "fascist" and considerable drivel turns up. Even Tony Blair has sounded an alarm on "fascism", though ironically he was attacked in the same way.

And no, the "best we can say" is not that Obama was "fascist" in terms of his relations with the news media. Reprehensible in some ways, and considerably more so than Trump for all his bluster against reporters.

This sort of ranting is par for the course on the Dope and makes little difference here. In the real world, it makes the ranters seem nutty and not worth paying attention to, while desensitizing people to what real fascism means.
  #63  
Old 05-18-2020, 10:30 AM
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Jackmannii, you are not engaging with what I am actually saying and it is getting very frustrating.

Fascism is a word with a clear meaning, not just a pejorative.

I know some people use it as a pejorative, but it's never really been part of my vocabulary until recently where I saw that Trump and his cronies meet the definition.

In just the last couple days they've tried to drop the case against Flynn in an unprecedented abuse of power (there have been plenty of abuses of power recently, but this one is a new kind). There is no non-corrupt argument for doing this.
There's nothing hyperbolic about pointing out that this kind of authoritarianism is very much part of the definition of fascism.

Also, to try to steer this discussion back on topic: the whole reason we're discussing this is because you suggested that there are adults in the room that will override Trump's worst impulses on distributing a vaccine.
Well, there are plenty of adults in the room protesting against Barr's corruption of the justice department. So, problem solved then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
And no, the "best we can say" is not that Obama was "fascist" in terms of his relations with the news media. Reprehensible in some ways, and considerably more so than Trump for all his bluster against reporters.
Again, you did not parse properly what I actually said.
I was playing devil's advocate and saying that even if the case had been successfully made that Obama was fascist, that's not a retort to the argument that Trump is; it's purely a deflection.

Also, can you give an example of Obama's "bluster" against reporters?

Last edited by Mijin; 05-18-2020 at 10:31 AM.
  #64  
Old 05-18-2020, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
The thing about so-called "Trump Derangement Syndrome" is that it is far more prevalent in the strawman community than in the actual human one. If your diagnosis of TDS rests on an imagined extrapolation to exaggerated statements that the supposed TDS-sufferer never actually made, then all you've got is another strawman case.
Trump derangement syndrome is just a tu quoque/false equivalency fallacy riff off calls of "Obama derangement syndrome" from several years ago. Arguing that our concern about Trump's blocking any attempt at Congressional oversight, and holding military aid hostage for partisan political favors, is no more (less) valid that concerns that Obama was a secret-Muslim born in Kenya, who hated America and engaged in terrorist fist jabs with his so called wife.

This is similar to "Fake News" which was first used by journalists to describe false stories promoted by Russian propagandists saying for example that the pope endorsed Trump, and has now been hi-jacked by the right to mean anything that legitimate news organizations say that is disparaging of Trump.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 05-18-2020 at 11:51 AM.
  #65  
Old 05-18-2020, 12:19 PM
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Also, to try to steer this discussion back on topic: the whole reason we're discussing this is because you suggested that there are adults in the room that will override Trump's worst impulses on distributing a vaccine.
It's worth noting that Trump came into office as a uniquely antivax President, touting the idea that children were vaccinated and then poof! became autistic. Before taking office, Trump discussed establishing a ''vaccine safety commission''with RFK Jr. (who has compared vaccination to the Holocaust*) heading it. After much pushback, the commission idea never got off the ground, with RFK Jr. saying the White House had ''cut off communications'' and that the antivaccine community felt ''betrayed''.

Trump has reverted to a more sane position on vaccines, promoting measles vaccination and hailing a coronavirus vaccine as a savior just down the road (the best that can be said for this projection is that it's wildly optimistic).

So if he considered limiting a U.S.-produced vaccine to this country and our closest allies , it's not going to happen.

You may find this article (in which experts on fascism are asked about whether Trump is a fascist) interesting. Spoiler alert: the consensus is "no". Money quote:

"You can be a total xenophobic racist male chauvinist bastard and still not be a fascist."

*another example of overblown rhetoric backfiring; even RFK Jr.'s family has gone public in rejecting his antivaccine bullshit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin
Also, can you give an example of Obama's "bluster" against reporters?
I referred to Trump's bluster against reporters. For examples of Obama's concrete actions to muzzle the media, refer to the links I provided (from those "fascist" media outlets, the CBC and The Hill).

Last edited by Jackmannii; 05-18-2020 at 12:19 PM.
  #66  
Old 05-18-2020, 12:40 PM
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The researchers who discovered insulin sold the patent for $1 to the Univ. of Toronto where they worked. Most of the insulin used now is under patent , it's made by manipulating DNA. BTW insulin is not a prescription medicine in 49 states , the exception is Indiana.
  #67  
Old 05-18-2020, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
It's worth noting that Trump came into office as a uniquely antivax President, touting the idea that children were vaccinated and then poof! became autistic. Before taking office, Trump discussed establishing a ''vaccine safety commission''with RFK Jr. (who has compared vaccination to the Holocaust*) heading it. After much pushback, the commission idea never got off the ground, with RFK Jr. saying the White House had ''cut off communications'' and that the antivaccine community felt ''betrayed''.

Trump has reverted to a more sane position on vaccines, promoting measles vaccination and hailing a coronavirus vaccine as a savior just down the road (the best that can be said for this projection is that it's wildly optimistic).

So if he considered limiting a U.S.-produced vaccine to this country and our closest allies , it's not going to happen.

You may find this article (in which experts on fascism are asked about whether Trump is a fascist) interesting. Spoiler alert: the consensus is "no". Money quote:

"You can be a total xenophobic racist male chauvinist bastard and still not be a fascist."

*another example of overblown rhetoric backfiring; even RFK Jr.'s family has gone public in rejecting his antivaccine bullshit.I referred to Trump's bluster against reporters. For examples of Obama's concrete actions to muzzle the media, refer to the links I provided (from those "fascist" media outlets, the CBC and The Hill).
Not the first time Trump has declared something for intelligent consumption while at the same time telling the less able base to ignore masks, quarantines and yes, even vaccines. I will accept what Trump says when I see him using a mask and showing himself being vaccinated like other presidents did when vaccines were available:

https://time.com/5093600/president-trump-flu-shot/
Quote:
President Ford gets swine flu shot from Wm. Lukash on Oct. 14, 1976
Quote:
In this handout provided by the White House, A White House nurse prepares to administer the H1N1 vaccine to President Barack Obama at the White House on December 20, 2009 in Washington, DC.
IMHO the lack of example coming from the current president is deadly for many who are on the record of getting wrong, such as many Trump followers.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 05-18-2020 at 12:47 PM.
  #68  
Old 05-18-2020, 07:12 PM
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Back to the original post


IMHO No, no a thousand times no. Because smallpox is gone in the wild and hopefully polio as well in a couple of years. Probably not but at least WHO got smallpox (we helped).
  #69  
Old 05-19-2020, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
It's worth noting that Trump came into office as a uniquely antivax President, touting the idea that children were vaccinated and then poof! became autistic.
[...]
Trump has reverted to a more sane position on vaccines, promoting measles vaccination and hailing a coronavirus vaccine as a savior just down the road
Yeah, on this issue specifically he's trying to walk the line. He has stopped saying that vaccines "change" babies, but he does still talk about how we shouldn't be giving multiple vaccines at once and that we vaccinate "too much".

Anyway, I don't see this as evidence that the adults in the room can control him; as I say, we can list many, many times where they have failed to do so.
Just that, for this particular issue, he considered it politically prudent to shift his rhetoric.

Quote:
You may find this article (in which experts on fascism are asked about whether Trump is a fascist) interesting. Spoiler alert: the consensus is "no". Money quote:

"You can be a total xenophobic racist male chauvinist bastard and still not be a fascist."
That article is from 2016 and illustrates exactly what I mean:
Some people use fascist as a pejorative, and so were calling Trump a fascist in those early days based on, say, his racist comments. Not me. I have never used that word as a pejorative.

I call him a fascist now, based on his actions in government. While he is very far from crushing the independence of the branches of government and the rule of law, he's done a heck of a lot more than anyone thought was possible.

Watergate was nothing compared to several of the president's actions and corruption. And Nixon cooperated with the subpeonas. Things really are uniquely bad now.

Quote:
For examples of Obama's concrete actions to muzzle the media, refer to the links I provided (from those "fascist" media outlets, the CBC and The Hill).
Ah, I misread your sentence. So for those allegations, you are confident in saying that they happened at Obama's behest?
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