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Old 05-17-2020, 01:20 AM
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What to do when someone in your social group flaunts their flagrant violation of social distancing?


Just today I was involved in a social situation (online, not in person) where one person in the social group (a longtime online acquaintance to me whom I would never have called a friend, but some of my friends would certainly consider her their friend) proudly posted a photo of her with some of her RL friends (no one any of the rest of us knows) hanging out outside, huddled in close together to take a group shot. I called her out in no uncertain terms (after verifying they were from different households and that the photo was recent--it was in fact from today), saying that this was unacceptable and puts all of us (and most especially vulnerable populations) at risk of potentially dying.

Some of the other people in the social group said that I was basically right, but that it was too "mean" for me to call her out like that. They argued that she was not going to be convinced by my hostile argument, and that in fact she might just dig her heels in deeper. I believe when I see something this egregious, I have an ethical duty to draw a line and deny such people "social proof" that engaging in this kind of behavior is, if not celebrated, at least acceptable.

I said if they were all like three feet apart, it would be sort of like knowing someone was driving with maybe a .08 or .09 BAC. Not quite kosher but borderline enough that you maybe shouldn't make a big stink about it. Whereas to me, this was more like knowing they were driving with about a .20 BAC, with Grandma in the back seat. They disagreed and said that what she posted was more like the .09 scenario.

Thoughts?
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Old 05-17-2020, 01:42 AM
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I don't think the BAC levels are really a good comparison.

Were they at least wearing masks?
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Old 05-17-2020, 01:49 AM
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Nope. Just hanging out, leaning in close to fit in the photo frame, no masks.

I think it is a good comparison because driving drunk doesn't hurt anyone most of the time. But doing it displays a reckless disregard for the lives of others, which is why we put people in prison if they keep doing it--even if they never actually hurt anyone.
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Old 05-17-2020, 02:01 AM
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Well, that's just it. No one is going to put the girls in prison if they take 10 photos huddled together and unmasked each day. Probably not even a ticket, depending where they are.
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Old 05-17-2020, 02:20 AM
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Since I'm only going to be in contact with them online anyways, my tactic has just been to tell them how it's bad on Facebook, being as polite as I can. And if they freak out and delete me, then we weren't friends anyways.

I can't be friends with callous, selfish people. I can be friends with someone who just didn't understand, but only if they're open minded enough to listen. If not, then there's no point.

It all being online makes it so much easier than it is in person. There's no direct interaction where I may blow my cool, and no worrying about having to continue interacting with them. That doesn't mean I'm mean, just that it's much easier to be assertive behind a keyboard.

I even have a built in excuse--my mom is at risk, so I can't risk being around people like that. It tends to make sure that other people who see it are sympathetic towards me.
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Old 05-17-2020, 02:26 AM
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Reading your post, it doesn't sound like you actually were involved in a social situation. An online acquaintance you will never meet got together with some other people you will never meet.

I would also disagree that this puts all of us at risk of potentially dying. I'm sure not worried about dying because your online pal got close enough to some other people you don't know to take a picture. To compare it to impaired driving is just weird.

Also they were flouting, not flaunting.
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Old 05-17-2020, 02:34 AM
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No. They were flouting the social distancing guidelines, that's true. But I said they were flaunting their flagrant violation of social distancing guidelines. Which is correct in that context. IOW they had already flouted the guidelines, and were showing off pictures of having done so, which is where the flaunting comes in.

ETA: These people and I have engaged in hourslong conversation via Discord voice chat while playing poker several times a week over a period now of years. Many of the rest of them have spent significant time together in person; I have not because I live far from most of them and have less money than they do to travel. It is definitely a friend group (one that I actually started). But I've never liked the woman who posted the photos.
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Old 05-17-2020, 06:10 AM
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[...]I have an ethical duty to draw a line and deny such people "social proof" that engaging in this kind of behavior is, if not celebrated, at least acceptable.[...]
I agree.

If you were polite and reasonable and clear and unconflicted about it, so much the better. But I think the moral obligation is to move the mood of the social response away from acceptance and celebration, in whatever way you are able. Death (and illness) are indeed part of the bigger questions.

If they don't want to be your friends anymore as a consequence, I can be your consolation prize if you want.
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Old 05-17-2020, 06:59 AM
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I believe when I see something this egregious, I have an ethical duty to draw a line and deny such people "social proof" that engaging in this kind of behavior is, if not celebrated, at least acceptable.
Some discussion of this idea from an ethicist. (Short version: scolding people probably does not work, and in any case, it's misdirected -- it's putting a disproportionate amount of blame on individuals, when in fact it's institutional choices that have failed us and put people at risk.)

I think you're discovering firsthand why it doesn't work: pretty much everybody's first reaction to being called out in a semi-public space like social media is to look for reasons why the other person is wrong, rather than assuming they are the ones who are wrong.

Last edited by Fretful Porpentine; 05-17-2020 at 07:00 AM.
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Old 05-17-2020, 07:58 AM
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Fretful that’s my first take too, and agreed about yelling at strangers on the street say, but silence in this circumstance as the alternative implicitly accepts the behavior as normative, is passive endorsement by default.

The target of a response is not the person who posted but everyone else.

Maybe just a post of yourself in a mask with your favorite social distancing motto. Not direct conflict.
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Old 05-17-2020, 08:21 AM
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A suggestion would have been the best response.

Maybe next time, you could say "Be careful out there!" and then show them some of the clips (there are several) of how the virus can spread through air droplets.

At this point, I don't think you can say or do much to change anyone's minds about social gatherings. People are tired of staying indoors all the time, and I get it. But we're going to be right back where we were in mid April within a matter of months, if not weeks. And it's because people are stubborn. Let it happen.
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Old 05-17-2020, 09:27 AM
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I feel like the official messaging has been so undercut by the same authorities that issued it that it gets really hard to chide other people. While getting close to take a picture is certainly over the line, there is so much gray area. Furthermore, you don't know the full context. We are really getting into that George Carelton margin, where everyone being less cautious than you is a menace to society, and everyone who is more cautious is being a drama-queen paranoid baby.

For example, today I am going to ride in the car with my mom for a total of about 3 hours (round trip). We won't wear masks in the car. We are going to a nature preserve. If it's crowded at all, we won't stay. I am on the fence about this. I worry I am endangering my (73, very healthy) mom--but I also know she really needs some activity/stimulation and I would really, really like to spend some time with her. I have in many ways avoided other sort of "grey" areas--like going into the grocery store, going on walks with friends--so that I minimize my chances of being exposed explicitly so that I can see my mom in a less restrictive fashion. If someone took a picture of me in the car with my mom and captioned it "I guess gossiping is more important than keeping your mom alive!" and posted that publicly, would that be justified? I'd be humiliated and angry--but I don't think I'd change my ways, because I have thought through this, I do think it's a reasonable risk.

At the same time, I also think I have hurt some friends because I won't do socially distancing happy hours. Just by declining, I am judging them: they know I would go if I thought it was an acceptable risk. And there really isn't any clear messaging from anyone whether or not a truly socially distant happy hour--never closer than 10 feet, outdoors--is really risky.

This is hard to negotiate. I know I constantly feel judged both for being too lax and for being too cautious. I can't imagine caustic, public criticism helps anyone. I try not to judge others because it's hard to know the full context of what they are doing.
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Old 05-17-2020, 09:45 AM
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Why not hit up ole girl privately? Why blow her out of the water in front of errbody? ?

Alternatively, you could have hit up one of your more reasonable-minded mutual friends and asked them if they would feel comfortable sharing your concerns.

I don't know if you have an "ethical duty" to speak on this or not. I mean, I see people around me doing all kinds of unsafe things (like riding around on a bike with a small child gripping the handlebars for dear life, neither one wearing a helmet). But I don't feel like it's my ethical duty to say anything. I would only say something if we had the kind of friendship where I could get away with scolding them and it wouldn't be taken as hateration but rather an act of love.

The "you're putting us all at risk of dying!" thing would have made me roll my eyes at you too, and I'm pro-social distancing. If you're going to speak about risks, speak about them accurately. Your acquaintance was putting you all at risk of getting sick. Being sick is awful enough, especially given the lack of resources some people have to cope with sickness. There was no need for you to jump to death here. That bit made your dispassionate lecture turn into a shrill diatribe.
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Old 05-17-2020, 09:50 AM
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Forward her this story with the tag "You might be next. Be safe!"
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Old 05-17-2020, 10:02 AM
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Why not hit up ole girl privately? Why blow her out of the water in front of errbody? ?
This.

Personally I consider it my duty as a friend to call out people I care about when they're fuckin' up. I expect the same from them.

But you don't have to do it in front of everybody.
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Old 05-17-2020, 10:19 AM
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I tell you where this whole thing started going off the rails. It was when people everywhere started thinking -- or, were pressured to believe -- that sharing air with a small circle of your closest friends was pretty much guaranteed to result in disaster for us all. My god, what has happened to people.
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Old 05-17-2020, 10:43 AM
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I tell you where this whole thing started going off the rails. It was when people everywhere started thinking -- or, were pressured to believe -- that sharing air with a small circle of your closest friends was pretty much guaranteed to result in disaster for us all. My god, what has happened to people.
A church choir of 60 tested that. 45 infected, 2 dead last I heard.

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Old 05-17-2020, 10:49 AM
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One of the ways all this physical distancing has been harmful to everyone's emotional well-being is how it's moved almost all of our interactions online. In real life, I (used to) go diving with people who had different politics than I; some were my friends on Facebook but I spent little time there beyond making plans to go diving. Now I'm stuck at home, bored, scrolling through social media and reading all their hateful memes, and it's just depressing. We've known for a while now that social media interactions can be toxic because of the loss of nuance and the moderating effect of having to look someone in the eye, but at least that's always been tempered by the fact that getting offline and getting together over a beer was at least an option.

I understand the desire to call out behavior that endangers others. I understand the desire to correct misinformation. But I'm struck by this little aside:
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It is definitely a friend group (one that I actually started). But I've never liked the woman who posted the photos.
I think it's more important than ever to examine our motives before we react. Would you have "called out in no uncertain terms" in public someone you did like in such dire language ("at risk of dying")? Perhaps you would have, but I think most people, at least without a computer screen to hide behind, would be kinder toward their friends. We could all make a little more effort in that respect.
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Old 05-17-2020, 11:00 AM
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A church choir of 60 tested that. 45 infected, 2 dead last I heard.
And my food processing plant with several hundred people has been running about 50-75% capacity since this started without a single case last I heard 2 weeks ago.

Where was the aforementioned photo taken (hotspot or no new cases for a month make a difference) and had these people been in contact with one another on a continuing basis previous to it? My region has now had all restrictions lifted. Eateries are grappling with when and how they are going to open. Bars are for the most part open. This happened Thurs. Fri the state had the most confirmed cases so far. We'll know after Memorial day whether or not this was a good move.
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Old 05-17-2020, 04:28 PM
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A church choir of 60 tested that. 45 infected, 2 dead last I heard.
Not a very direct comparison. 60 people, so a much larger chance one of them had it. Choir practice, so presumably close contact with lots of exhalation for a long time. That's not necessarily close to the same risk as a small group of friends huddling briefly for a picture.

Not to nitpick, but the basic problem with social shaming about COVID precautions, and let's assume we're all reasonable people who don't *enjoy* social shaming of others as many internet people obviously do, is the big gaps in our knowledge about what practices carry what risk. We have a US standard of 6' distancing (some argue it's not enough, though some other countries have a 1 meter standard). If people aren't doing close to that, it's fairly easy to therefore to say they aren't with the program. It's much harder to gauge quantitatively what risk they are taking, and passing on to others. Our knowledge of the actual risk of a given deviation from the standard guideline is pretty low unless it's pretty extreme (more extreme than going together for a few seconds for a photo). So I think it's actually reasonable for eyes to start rolling at statements like 'people could DIE...'.

But if it's the right relationship you might say 'shouldn't you guys really keep your distance more?' Beyond that I think it would be mainly a matter of making sure you yourself keep distance from people in RL who you don't have high confidence are keeping distance from everybody but you. My wife and I don't keep social distance from one another for example. The standard also isn't to keep literally everybody at 6' all the time.

Last edited by Corry El; 05-17-2020 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 05-17-2020, 04:33 PM
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A little diplomacy goes a long way, but a lot does no good. A little diplomacy would be something like,"So nice you were all having a good time, I'm disappointed to see people so close, and without masks. This is a dangerous virus which can kill people like my mother. Please be more cautious."

Too much diplomacy would be a mild suggestion or PM. A public comment might not stop this woman from huddling mask-less with her friends, but it might dissuade her from posting photos of it on social media. The more people see other people flouting the rules, the more normalized it becomes. It's like the woman who got gored at Yellowstone who said she ignored the signs and got close to bison because so many others were doing so that she figured the signs were just liability CYA.
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Old 05-18-2020, 05:50 AM
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The one thing I've found even more annoying than practising social distancing is complaints about other people not practising social distancing. Sure, it's disappointing that some people seem to have no regard for rules that have been put in place to protect the most vulnerable. No-one in my household is vulnerable, so there is a part of me that thinks 'why should I bother? I don't care if I get it.". But that is strongly overridden by a desire to do the right thing and try to be 'good' in the hope that it will help us all return to some sort of normality more quickly. Having said that, as other posters have pointed out, publicly shaming others is unlikely to have the desired effect. And even a private message probably won't either, in my view. As such, if a Facebook friend of mine posted such a photo, whether I liked them or not I don't think I'd do more than raise my eyebrows slightly and move on with my life. They have made their choice and I don't think there's anything I can do other than think a bit less of them.
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Old 05-18-2020, 07:57 AM
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The one thing I've found even more annoying than practising social distancing is complaints about other people not practising social distancing. Sure, it's disappointing that some people seem to have no regard for rules that have been put in place to protect the most vulnerable. No-one in my household is vulnerable, so there is a part of me that thinks 'why should I bother? I don't care if I get it.". But that is strongly overridden by a desire to do the right thing and try to be 'good' in the hope that it will help us all return to some sort of normality more quickly.
To be clear: a large part of social distancing is not to protect you (since you are not vulnerable and don't care), nor the people in your household (you are also presumably not vulnerable), but for the event that you get the virus, are asymptomatic (you don't even know you have it) and pass it on to somebody (at the supermarket, on the street, etc) who is vulnerable.
It is not clear in your post if that factors in for you, so apologies if it does.
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Old 05-18-2020, 08:08 AM
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It reminds me of things like abolishing slavery. Well, I'm not black so it doesn't matter? Or women when they were getting the right to vote? I'm not a woman so I don't care? Holocaust?
I'm not Jewish.

In practical terms, maybe this time the virus doesn't impact your family. What about the next virus?

I like this story about the Irish, who didn't forget:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/the-...ronavirus.html

Last edited by lobotomyboy63; 05-18-2020 at 08:09 AM. Reason: pulled trigger too soon
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Old 05-18-2020, 08:32 AM
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To be clear: a large part of social distancing is not to protect you (since you are not vulnerable and don't care), nor the people in your household (you are also presumably not vulnerable), but for the event that you get the virus, are asymptomatic (you don't even know you have it) and pass it on to somebody (at the supermarket, on the street, etc) who is vulnerable.
It is not clear in your post if that factors in for you, so apologies if it does.
Thanks, yes I'm aware and sorry that didn't come across in my previous post. To be clear: I am (and have been since required by my government) fully practising social distancing even though my household does not itself contain any vulnerable people, for exactly this reason.

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It reminds me of things like abolishing slavery. Well, I'm not black so it doesn't matter? Or women when they were getting the right to vote? I'm not a woman so I don't care? Holocaust?
I'm not Jewish.

In practical terms, maybe this time the virus doesn't impact your family. What about the next virus?
I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but hopefully I've clarified above.
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Old 05-18-2020, 08:45 AM
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Thanks, yes I'm aware and sorry that didn't come across in my previous post. To be clear: I am (and have been since required by my government) fully practising social distancing even though my household does not itself contain any vulnerable people, for exactly this reason.



I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but hopefully I've clarified above.
Not directed at you personally, no. As you say, you want to do the right thing, which is what made me think of the examples. But also look at how the Irish repaid an old kindness.

It's still in everyone's best interest if only because it gets us back to normal sooner. That might be the argument that reaches some of them---"The longer you don't go along with it, the longer we have to do it."
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Old 05-18-2020, 08:46 AM
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People also need to keep in mind that the dose of virus you're exposed to matters a great deal.

If you are talking to an infected person who is standing some distance away from you for a sustained period of time, there's a high likelihood of you inhaling viral particles. But since you will probably only inhale a few, the infection will probably not take hold. And if it does, it will likely not overwhelm your system.

But if you are standing close enough to an infected person to be sprayed by their spittle, then you aren't going to get exposed to just a few particles. You'll likely get a dose that may overhelm your system and make you really really sick. Or dead.

So people who are cavalier about social distancing because I'M nOt vuLnerAbLe! really do need to wake the fuck up. I just don't think the approach taken by the OP was the best one.
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Old 05-18-2020, 08:48 AM
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I think it is a good comparison because driving drunk doesn't hurt anyone most of the time. But doing it displays a reckless disregard for the lives of others, which is why we put people in prison if they keep doing it--even if they never actually hurt anyone.
My car, my choice.

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Old 05-18-2020, 09:55 AM
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It reminds me of things like abolishing slavery. Well, I'm not black so it doesn't matter? Or women when they were getting the right to vote? I'm not a woman so I don't care? Holocaust?
I'm not Jewish.
The other poster clarified they weren't saying they didn't care, which I got from their post to begin with. But even if the post was unclear I think your parallels are an example of the lack of perspective that's common now in moralistic scolding on the internet. Slavery, the Holocaust, and...less than fully following COVID guidelines?

Those overwrought comparisons also actually miss the point that not following COVID guidelines can make the situation worse. Not caring about slavery didn't make it any worse. And the remedy for US slavery had its own massive cost in lives (even if typical Union soldiers weren't mainly motivated by ending slavery, it wouldn't have ended just then without their huge sacrifice). Standing further apart than usual in a leisure activity costs almost nothing.

Again I think it's reasonable to give a friend a leading question like 'shouldn't you guys really be keeping your distance more than in those photo's'. If they have basic reading comprehension and pay attention to the news whatsoever they will know what you are saying and factor that into their future decisions as they may. In the end you don't control them and making stronger and stronger to the point of extreme statements and comparisons isn't 'doing more', practically. Even talking about how you don't want your older relatives to die is over the top in that situation IMO, bringing up the Holocaust or slavery even indirectly is further over.

Especially since it might be medium risk activity for all we know, a small group of people coming close for a photo perhaps only momentarily, also if outdoors. If it's somebody participating in long weekly events in packed auditoriums that would be different. Like I said before, there's a fairly bright line between 'with the program' on personal anti-COVID measures and not, but it's fuzzier when it comes to quantitatively assessing actual risk of various guideline violations.

Last edited by Corry El; 05-18-2020 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 05-18-2020, 09:56 AM
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People who are posting pics of themselves flouting the social distancing rules know the rules/guidelines and know that they're breaking them. They're not going to be all "oh shit, we had no idea we shouldn't be getting together right now, and if we do we should be wearing masks. Thanks for telling us, SlackerInc! We'll stay home from now on!" Just the same as shaming someone for their weight isn't going to have them come to the sudden realization that they're fat and make positive life changes. They know. They don't care.

I say let it go, keep doing your best to protect yourself and those around you that you actually have influence over, and do what you can to stay out of harm's way by staying home. This is America 2020. Pushing the issue with people who don't seem to "get it" most often pushes them further away from acting in the responsible way. If you keep trying to herd those cats you're going to set yourself up for some serious heartache.
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Old 05-18-2020, 12:02 PM
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The other poster clarified they weren't saying they didn't care, which I got from their post to begin with. But even if the post was unclear I think your parallels are an example of the lack of perspective that's common now in moralistic scolding on the internet. Slavery, the Holocaust, and...less than fully following COVID guidelines?

Those overwrought comparisons also actually miss the point that not following COVID guidelines can make the situation worse. Not caring about slavery didn't make it any worse. And the remedy for US slavery had its own massive cost in lives (even if typical Union soldiers weren't mainly motivated by ending slavery, it wouldn't have ended just then without their huge sacrifice). Standing further apart than usual in a leisure activity costs almost nothing.
A lot of people seem to follow the thought process (which Dead Cat described) but stop there. It doesn't impact me or my circle...I'll do what I want (essentially). Dead Cat also said it was important to do the right thing, which I acknowledged in the following post, not wanting to blame the messenger.

I wasn't trying to put the virus on the same scale as the other things I mentioned; I was trying to use it to contrast. Hmm...if I told you a guy stole a million dollars, would you be surprised to later learn that he also stole ten dollars? No, the million is enough to say that stealing ten was totally believable. Likewise, people in history have overlooked *enormous* things and they did so for decades on end. Given that, should we be surprised if people ignore this? A year ago, nobody had even heard of it, and it's from the family with the common cold. "COVID-19? We've had Ebola and others...who is this puny Johnny-Come-Lately?" No, not surprising.

IMO ignoring a problem makes the situation worse in that if nothing else, it allows it to continue and possibly worsen. For instance slavery ended in the 1860s in the US but many years earlier would have been better. And starting the struggle against this virus earlier...a week, a month...how many might have been saved? We had the benefit of dire warnings from Italy, Spain, and more. Still, if people can ignore the above mentioned elephants in the room, they can certainly ignore what they perceive to be a mouse (and make fun of you for thinking it's a big deal).

Masks and distancing are easy and reasonable, but I think ZipperJJ is probably right. You're not going to change many minds, OP.
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Old 05-18-2020, 01:42 PM
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I'll say it again: there's value in speaking up even if doing so doesn't change anyone's social distancing behavior. It can impact their decision to post photos of it on social media, which in turn would mean less normalization of their disregard for the rules/lives of others.

Many people don't change behavior the first time someone objects. It can take several instances with responses from different people before change occurs (if it does). Be part of that critical mass. Speak up.
  #33  
Old 05-18-2020, 02:36 PM
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Unfortunately there are people who get a small buzz when being 'naughty', haven't you ever had that feeling yourself when you got away with something that you knew was wrong, but not really really bad.

So what happens is that these folk just have little appreciation of risk and the genuine seriousness of their actions - after all the sky didn't fall right in so its just a little bit 'naughty' and just a little bit of a thrill for getting away with it.

Problem is that these folk are most unlikely to suffer the real consequences, unless they actually get it and by then it will be too late - the ones who suffer the most will be those to whom they pass it on because they are asymptomatic and will likely recover if it takes hold.

Such people haven't really come to terms with delayed results - such as deferred pleasure or deferred consequences.

It's really the small child inside, an immature attitude to public safety and collective responsibility. What they need to do is grow up - but is it likely? Children take time to grow up, immature adults probably won't.
  #34  
Old 05-20-2020, 06:45 PM
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I could have perhaps better clarified: this woman is definitely not just oblivious or being shown at an unrepresentative moment. There's no way IMO that they all just held their breath and leaned in for the photo before spreading out again. She is borderline obsessive about physical fitness, and in March when her gym closed, she complained about it bitterly and kept doing so into April. The rest of us argued with her about why it was important, but she completely scoffed. (She lives in the Florida Panhandle, aka "Lower Alabama", FWIW.)

And I have been a moderate on these kinds of issues. In a late March thread, a lot of people gave Manda Jo grief for saying she really missed her mom and was considering spending time talking to her outside from 25 feet away. I was the only one who really rose to her defense:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=500

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=502


So I don't think it's reasonable to berate someone for hanging out even with an elderly person if they're outside 25 feet apart. But I think it's an entirely different matter when it's a group of people zero feet apart. (Or maybe she would object that they were like one foot apart, measuring from mouth to mouth?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
I'll say it again: there's value in speaking up even if doing so doesn't change anyone's social distancing behavior. It can impact their decision to post photos of it on social media, which in turn would mean less normalization of their disregard for the rules/lives of others.

Many people don't change behavior the first time someone objects. It can take several instances with responses from different people before change occurs (if it does). Be part of that critical mass. Speak up.

This is what rings true to me! Thanks.
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  #35  
Old 05-21-2020, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I could have perhaps better clarified: this woman is definitely not just oblivious or being shown at an unrepresentative moment. There's no way IMO that they all just held their breath and leaned in for the photo before spreading out again.

And I have been a moderate on these kinds of issues. In a late March thread, a lot of people gave Manda Jo grief for saying she really missed her mom and was considering spending time talking to her outside from 25 feet away. I was the only one who really rose to her defense:
There are two potentially separate but overlapping issues. One is whether a person is 'with the program'. Wearing a mask outdoors with social distancing for example is almost surely superfluous/useless, but it can be a social signal, 'I'm with you on this, you can trust me'. Some posts in various threads have been by people who realize this, as opposed to ones who'd want to have an argument about my third sentence ('you can't be *100%* sure a mask outside with distancing is superfluous/useless so we must assume it's actually very important').

But social signalling depends on people sharing world views. The US is a very diverse plus very socio-politically polarized country (two things which also have some relationship but are not the same thing). Lots of people won't agree on what 'everybody should do'. Some people will disagree just because of who it is they see promoting a particular view (if *they* are saying it, it must be wrong').

But I see your point, your clarification that these people you know on social media are acting in some obviously COVID-risky way, not just refusing to strictly follow some instruction as a demonstration of their social conformity. Also in case of adult kid visiting elderly parent and talking outside at 25', the danger (if any) is probably mainly to the parent rather than assuming that parent would be in contact with lots of other people in vulnerable groups. That parent is the person mainly being protected, and has a right to weigh in. In case of groups of younger people congregating, the idea is that they are mainly endangering unknown members of vulnerable groups further along the chain who have no say in it.

Again though if you just look at internet/media now you do see some pretty overwrought reactions to stuff not unlike the 25' outdoor case. They are trying to enforce social conformity in particular cases where the scientific/medical risk of refusing to might be nearly zero. But in fairness to them social norms have often evolved to avoid case by case decision making and dispute by saying 'let's everyone just do this'.

Last edited by Corry El; 05-21-2020 at 05:15 PM.
  #36  
Old 05-21-2020, 07:41 PM
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Also in case of adult kid visiting elderly parent and talking outside at 25', the danger (if any) is probably mainly to the parent rather than assuming that parent would be in contact with lots of other people in vulnerable groups. That parent is the person mainly being protected, and has a right to weigh in. In case of groups of younger people congregating, the idea is that they are mainly endangering unknown members of vulnerable groups further along the chain who have no say in it.

Yes, good point.

I do wonder if people are shifting in their positioning even here, compared to that Manda Jo pile-on I referred to. I don't know if anything has really changed on the merits, but I think it is like the phenomenon when you are waiting at a stop sign to cross a major thoroughfare whose traffic does not have to stop. In the first minute or two you are stopped, you may pass up some borderline opportunities to cross in favor of waiting for a clearer gap in traffic. But after it's been three or four minutes, you floor it and fly through a little gap that you would have seen as unacceptably risky two minutes prior. The only thing that has actually changed is your own impatience.
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  #37  
Old 05-21-2020, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by running coach View Post
A church choir of 60 tested that. 45 infected, 2 dead last I heard.
+1.



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