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Old 05-20-2020, 11:50 AM
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Warnings Reversed?


Out of pure curiosity, I was wondering if a Moderator Warning was ever reversed on the basis of the kind of appeals I see posted here. I haven't seen any that have been reversed or, for that matter, worthy of being reversed. Most seem to be a desperate effort at rationalizing statements that were very ill-advised.

Much like traffic court, you could charge a fee for taking up the court's time with frivolous appeals. Maybe ten to twenty dollars?
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:51 AM
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It happens. Not often, but I've seen it.
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:53 AM
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Sometimes they are. Usually not.

In any event, threads about warnings sometimes help make it clearer to other posters just what is and is not acceptable.
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:54 AM
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I had one reversed, but not because of a thread questioning it. I simply apologized.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:01 PM
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According to Jonathan Chance, at least one poster (Shodan) got 3 warnings reversed. That's astounding to me. One warning reversed is rare, but three. Wow. That seems pretty miraculous to me.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:04 PM
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The idea behind moderation is that our notes and warnings are meant to guide you to better behavior. It's a better community for everyone that way.

It should also be mentioned that most people go through life here accruing no warnings at all and there's no doubt a sizable number of posters who make one mistake and that's it. They take the greater lesson from what happened and they change their behavior and life goes on and that's the end of it.

Moderators are all too human and not infallible; we have all made mistakes. We admit it when we do and we make amends. And like posters we learn the greater lesson and we move on.

Even if we have to warn you for something, please put it in perspective: We can't kill you and we can't eat you. So relax.

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Old 05-20-2020, 12:08 PM
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Even if we have to warn you for something, please put it in perspective: We can't kill you and we can't eat you. So relax.
Your chocolate, OTOH...

Last edited by Skywatcher; 05-20-2020 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:19 PM
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I continue to be amazed at the number of posters that go to great lengths to appeal their warnings, like they are on your permanent record or something. Is it the mentality of: (well I'm sure that I will cross the line again in the future, so I don't want this infraction on my record as the accumulation may result in my banning)?

My perspective is, as TubaDiva points out, we are all citizens of this community we have decided to join. We can't have anarchy, so we need rules and we need volunteers to help enforce those rules. No one is perfect, and as long as we individually strive to participate in this community in good faith, then you will be given some latitude to make mistakes. But if you continue to behave in a manner contrary to established agreement we have all made, then you essentially are self selecting to be out.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:19 PM
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I've had three warnings in my time here, two of them were reversed. One of them was when I responded to someone calling libruls intolerant and wrote:
Quote:
You, and the Klan, and Mr. Robertson, and the Revolutionary Maoist Youth League, and Carrot Top, and Rush Limbaugh, and every asshole with an opinion has a legal right to express that opinion. I will tolerate it to the extent that if the government tries to shut you up, I'll try to stop them.
A moderator responded:
Quote:
Quote:
You, . . . and every asshole . . . .
You have not made sufficient effort to distinguish between "assholes" and another poster.
Ironically, that editing of my quote by a mod probably wouldn't pass muster today. Anyway, after the requisite ATMB thread, the moderator reversed the warning.

Later, I got warned for editing a quote, despite the fact that my editing removed nothing and added in brackets the antecedent to a pronoun and was immediately followed with "[clarification added]." Again, a thread appeared in ATMB, and the poster whom I quoted agreed that my clarification was accurate and appropriate, and the warning was reversed.

These warnings have led me to two conclusions:
1) It's really important for mods to moderate with their fingers outside of the trigger guard. When they're stressed, it's really easy for them to misread or misinterpret a situation and act inappropriately. I appreciated Bone's moderation precisely because he was pretty careful not to shoot first and ask questions later.
2) Complaints about liberals getting a pass around here are overblown .
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:27 PM
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I had one reversed, but not because of a thread questioning it. I simply apologized.
I got mine for apologizing!

CMC fnord!
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:27 PM
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From what I've seen, warnings are frequently reversed if there's an overwhelming (if not unanimous) consensus of the posters in the ATMB thread that it was undeserved. If there's a solid minority - let alone a majority - of posters supporting it, there's (virtually?) no chance it will be reversed.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
From what I've seen, warnings are frequently reversed if there's an overwhelming (if not unanimous) consensus of the posters in the ATMB thread that it was undeserved. If there's a solid minority - let alone a majority - of posters supporting it, there's (virtually?) no chance it will be reversed.
There was a solid number of people who supported my warning. It was reversed anyway.
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:00 PM
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According to Jonathan Chance, at least one poster (Shodan) got 3 warnings reversed. That's astounding to me. One warning reversed is rare, but three. Wow. That seems pretty miraculous to me.
Wasnít one of them for insulting Forrest Gump? Iím glad that someone hates that character and awful movie more than I do!
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
From what I've seen, warnings are frequently reversed if there's an overwhelming (if not unanimous) consensus of the posters in the ATMB thread that it was undeserved. If there's a solid minority - let alone a majority - of posters supporting it, there's (virtually?) no chance it will be reversed.
Do you have cites for this, or is this just another way of complaining about the supposed mob rule on the Dope?

Last edited by Johnny Bravo; 05-20-2020 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
I had one reversed, but not because of a thread questioning it. I simply apologized.
That's usually the best approach. I can't speak for other mods, but if someone apologizes and I think they are unlikely to offend again I may reverse it. On the other hand, opening a protest with "This warning is bullshit!" is as unlikely to be successful as it as that approach is in traffic court.
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:32 PM
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I once got a warning reversed, for a warning given to another poster.

Engineer comp geek: Please reconsider your warning in the WWI thread
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
From what I've seen, warnings are frequently reversed if there's an overwhelming (if not unanimous) consensus of the posters in the ATMB thread that it was undeserved. If there's a solid minority - let alone a majority - of posters supporting it, there's (virtually?) no chance it will be reversed.
We don't make decisions based on mob rule, either to reverse warnings or to ban people. While we take input into consideration, the decision to reverse a warning is based the consensus of the staff, not posters.

I have personally reversed a few warnings that were objected to in ATMB. But that was because of input from other mods, not directly because of the thread.

Sometimes it seems to me that someone protesting a warning is mostly playing to the crowd. They hope to start a public outcry that will get their warning reversed. But this is not an effective strategy.
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:49 PM
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I'm wondering if what F-P is observing is that the weakest warnings are likeliest to have the strongest consensus against them, whereas more justifiable warnings won't have such a consensus against them. His if-then relationship is backwards, and instead should read:
Quote:
If warnings are bad warnings that need to be reversed, frequently there's an overwhelming (if not unanimous) consensus of the posters in the ATMB thread that it was undeserved. If a warning is reasonable and does not need to be reversed, there's a solid minority - or maybe a majority - of posters supporting it.
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Old 05-20-2020, 02:01 PM
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We don't make decisions based on mob rule, either to reverse warnings or to ban people. While we take input into consideration, the decision to reverse a warning is based the consensus of the staff, not posters.
Right.

The question, though, is whether the consensus of the staff is itself influenced by the aggregate consensus of the posters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
I'm wondering if what F-P is observing is that the weakest warnings are likeliest to have the strongest consensus against them, whereas more justifiable warnings won't have such a consensus against them.
That's undoubtedly a part of it. But it would go against human nature to assume that public opinion has no role at all.
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Old 05-21-2020, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by crowmanyclouds View Post
I got mine for apologizing!

CMC fnord!
Oh, come on, no link?! Unrequited curiosity is even worse than unrequited love!
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Old 05-21-2020, 09:39 AM
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Oh, come on, no link?! Unrequited curiosity is even worse than unrequited love!
The apology,
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...8#post20797978
The warning,
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...9#post20815929
Which puts me in the small handful of posters that actually got warnings for saying 'fuck you' in the Pit.

CMC fnord!
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Old 05-21-2020, 09:41 AM
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That example seems to stretch the notion of getting warned for apologizing.
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Old 05-21-2020, 09:46 AM
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Moderation is subjective. There's a human reading and evaluating what's going on.

We cannot read every post on the board and often rely on reports of what is perceived by the community as bad behavior. So you have that factor as well, the situation is being filtered through their judgment of the situation and their rendering of the rules as they understand them.

And context, always, Always, is everything.

So we strive to be as correct as we can be in every situation. Sometimes we misunderstand. Sometimes we just plain miss it. Sometimes the decisions are not popular for any number of reasons.

More often than not we get it right but hey, nobody bats 1000. That's why if you think it's a bad call you can appeal. You may be right; if so, we'll correct it. You may also be mistaken. That judgment call thing runs both ways.

Again, the point of notes and warnings is to point out bad behavior and to guide the user to better choices. It's not so much the message itself but the greater lesson offered in it, that's what matters here. We want you to correct this behavior, go forward, and sin no more. That's really all there is to it.

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Old 05-21-2020, 09:48 AM
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That example seems to stretch the notion of getting warned for apologizing.
With apologies to you officer....then whines like a baby about his ticket for doing 110 in a 45 zone.
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Old 05-22-2020, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by crowmanyclouds View Post
I got mine for apologizing!

CMC fnord!
Let me guess. You told someone "I'm sorry you're an idiot", right?
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Old 05-22-2020, 12:21 AM
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Okay, never mind.
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Old 05-22-2020, 07:03 AM
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I've had two reversed. Both times I didn't have a reasonable opportunity to see the initial mod warning 'of don't do this or you will get a warning' before posting the offending comment. On a 3rd one that I also appealed the mod pointed out to the other 2 reversals and the warning stuck. The 3rd one however was a bit different is that I misses the Mod's warning posting in the 'noise' of the thread, the other two it was because I composed my post over some hours so didn't see any mew postings including the Mod's warning. But the reversals is kind of a warning in itself as they stick just like the warning.
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
That example seems to stretch the notion of getting warned for apologizing.
Of course, he didn't get the warning "for apologizing" at all. He got it for making it clear he knew the rule and decided to violate it anyway.
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:25 PM
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Of course, he didn't get the warning "for apologizing" at all. He got it for making it clear he knew the rule and decided to violate it anyway.
I've no problem with the way Miller tried very hard to never really enforce the stupid Ed required language rules in the Pit. The apology was for making Miller type out yet another non-warning warning to yet another poster that voluntary broke Ed's stupid rule.

If I hadn't apologized Miller wouldn't, I'm reasonably certain, have warned me for my first violation of the Pit language rule. By apologizing I took away Miller's cover.

In the end I take a weird pride in being in that rare group of posters warned for saying 'fuck you' in the Pit. I'm almost certain the Mods would welcome everyone else feeling, something like, that way about their minor warnings.

CMC fnord!
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:23 PM
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I'm almost certain the Mods would welcome everyone else feeling, something like, that way about their minor warnings.
I'm 100% certain they would not. Believe it or not, we don't actually like giving warnings (or at least I don't). I very much dislike it when posters put me in the position of having to issue a warning by indicating that they are deliberately breaking a rule.
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:37 PM
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I'm 100% certain they would not. Believe it or not, we don't actually like giving warnings (or at least I don't). I very much dislike it when posters put me in the position of having to issue a warning by indicating that they are deliberately breaking a rule.
To be clear.The 'feeling' is 'Fair cop, got me dead to rights, nothing I can complain about'.

Also, I deliberately broke a rule that was rarely actually enforced and enjoyed almost no support (including, IMHO, the person required to enforce said rule).

CMC fnord!
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by crowmanyclouds View Post
To be clear.The 'feeling' is 'Fair cop, got me dead to rights, nothing I can complain about'.
While we appreciate it when posters admit that they committed an offense when they have done it inadvertently, I really don't like it when someone says, "I know this is going to get me a warning, but it's worth it" We would rather you not disobey the rules in the first place. There's zero to be proud of in what you did. You just made a difficult job more difficult.
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Old 05-22-2020, 07:32 PM
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Of course, he didn't get the warning "for apologizing" at all. He got it for making it clear he knew the rule and decided to violate it anyway.
Yep. That's what got me my (next to last) warning. I not only said "Fuck you!" to a now-banned poster, but I returned to a post and added that sentiment on edit.

Last edited by silenus; 05-22-2020 at 07:33 PM. Reason: corrected on edit
  #34  
Old 05-22-2020, 08:30 PM
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There aren't any reversed warnings. Look up the Shodan banning, he had 11 warnings with 3 reversals. The way the totals were presented it was obvious that all warnings were counted including the supposedly reversed ones.
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Old 05-23-2020, 10:07 AM
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There aren't any reversed warnings. Look up the Shodan banning, he had 11 warnings with 3 reversals. The way the totals were presented it was obvious that all warnings were counted including the supposedly reversed ones.
How was it obvious? Because they weren't expunged from the record and made anathema to mention?
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Old 05-23-2020, 03:05 PM
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https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...9&postcount=65

Quoting Jonathan Chance

Many. Checking, he had eleven warnings since 2012. Three of them were later reversed on appeal. He had warnings in Great Debates, certainly. But he got them in IMHO, ATMB (Nice trick, that), and The BBQ Pit (another nice trick, that one).

There were also endless notes.

But what's really indicative to me is that he was always in trouble of one sort of another. He'd get a warning, appeal it and maybe get it walked back. But he never changed. Even with the warnings being reversed he never seemed to take the lesson of 'Maybe I'm breaking rules and should dial it back' or even, 'I wonder why I'm getting all these warnings?' other than to blame it on moderation. It's akin to Nixon blaming his tsuris on the liberal media rather than his own sense of persecution and overreaction.

The reversed warning still counted against Shodan. I really don't care if he was banned or not, I am just trying to point out the futility of fighting a warning. It is still there. Forever.
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Old 05-23-2020, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Terrific View Post
There aren't any reversed warnings. Look up the Shodan banning, he had 11 warnings with 3 reversals. The way the totals were presented it was obvious that all warnings were counted including the supposedly reversed ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Bravo View Post
How was it obvious? Because they weren't expunged from the record and made anathema to mention?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Terrific View Post
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...9&postcount=65

Quoting Jonathan Chance

Many. Checking, he had eleven warnings since 2012. Three of them were later reversed on appeal. He had warnings in Great Debates, certainly. But he got them in IMHO, ATMB (Nice trick, that), and The BBQ Pit (another nice trick, that one).

There were also endless notes.

But what's really indicative to me is that he was always in trouble of one sort of another. He'd get a warning, appeal it and maybe get it walked back. But he never changed. Even with the warnings being reversed he never seemed to take the lesson of 'Maybe I'm breaking rules and should dial it back' or even, 'I wonder why I'm getting all these warnings?' other than to blame it on moderation. It's akin to Nixon blaming his tsuris on the liberal media rather than his own sense of persecution and overreaction.

The reversed warning still counted against Shodan. I really don't care if he was banned or not, I am just trying to point out the futility of fighting a warning. It is still there. Forever.
Moderating

Let's not hijack this into a discussion of Shodan.
  #38  
Old Yesterday, 11:30 AM
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I got mine for apologizing!

CMC fnord!
I got one for agreeing with someone.
  #39  
Old Yesterday, 01:28 PM
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I got one for agreeing with someone.
No you didn't. You've received warnings for various kinds of jerkishness, but never for agreeing with someone.

Last edited by Colibri; Yesterday at 01:31 PM.
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