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  #201  
Old 01-21-2017, 11:46 AM
Sam Lowry Sam Lowry is offline
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[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers;19937082]Still, Janet did identify the location as the Good Place several times, didn't she? Her programming must have been altered, or at least her inputs, since she seems to "think" she's in a Good Place neighborhood.

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She's a Good Janet - so her default programming would be that any place she is is by definition a Good Place. If one of our four asked her to investigate if they are really in a Good Place, she might be able to figure it out - but there is no reason for that to happen. Note that they rebooted Janet, so she presumably has no memory of Eleanor's insight.
I remember in one of the first episodes that Eleanor and Chidi were having yogurt and asked Janet what the Bad Place was like, and she opened her mouth and broadcast the traditional torturing and screaming hell sounds. But I guess she was broadcasting the normal Bad Place sounds, and no one had any reason to ask her about where specifically they were.

I do want to go back and watch the season and see what indications there were. I thought there were some scenes without any of the tortured four that Michael still acted like good Michael, but I guess he still needed to keep up the charade in front of Janet.

I hope we find more about how the actual system is set up. It sounds like there really is a point system from what Michael said to Chidi, just they were lied to about how many points they actually had. It does seem a bit unfair that Chidi was put in the Bad Place considering his motivation was always to do good, and do the right thing, just he was paralyzed by indecision. I guess his sin was being too self absorbed to notice how much he was torturing everyone with that?
  #202  
Old 01-21-2017, 11:56 AM
StGermain StGermain is online now
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Real Fake Eleanor spoiled Michael's plan because she figured out the scheme before 1000 years were up.

But what if she didn't? What if she and Chidi both volunteered for the Bad Place as he expected? Wouldn't that have ruined the plan just as thoroughly? What was he planning to do in that case?
That's when BadaBing rushes in and says he's found a loophole that can leep them all in The (fake) Good Place.

StG
  #203  
Old 01-21-2017, 01:33 PM
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She's a Good Janet - so her default programming would be that any place she is is by definition a Good Place.
Well, any place she "boots up" in, maybe. Janet can travel to the Medium Place, apparently, and the Janets can move around a little, i.e. that Bad Janet can operate in a Good Place (we were led to believe), though of course we later found out Bad Janet was just moving from one Bad Place neighborhood to another Bad Place neighborhood, albeit an experimental one.

Good Janet being "real" is partly supported by how, after she escorts Eleanor and Jason to the Medium Place, she's absent from the Neighborhood. If she were a fake and not a unique item Michael had stolen for his experiment, they'd just call up another fake Good Janet in the interim.

But then again, when Michael uses the Truth Cube to question Tahani, and one point he says "You've been a big help" (after she's actually been elaborately evasive) and the cube shows "False", suggesting he is lying. I guess we have to assume the Cube is calibrated to reflect truth and falsehood within the definition of the Neighborhood being a Good Place and Michael actually wanting to be helpful to the residents.

Normally I hate big reveals in which we find out a major character has actually been working for the other side the whole time, because it creates inconsistencies like these. This show is funny and charming enough for me to forgive it, though.
  #204  
Old 01-21-2017, 02:12 PM
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I hope we find more about how the actual system is set up. It sounds like there really is a point system from what Michael said to Chidi, just they were lied to about how many points they actually had. It does seem a bit unfair that Chidi was put in the Bad Place considering his motivation was always to do good, and do the right thing, just he was paralyzed by indecision. I guess his sin was being too self absorbed to notice how much he was torturing everyone with that?
The points system is influenced by the effects of your actions, not just your intent. Chidi made everyone he ever cared about completely miserable with his inability to make a decision. That makes him a bad person even though he didn't make them miserable on purpose.
  #205  
Old 01-21-2017, 02:21 PM
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The points system is influenced by the effects of your actions, not just your intent.
That makes the Mindy issue a bit more problematic. She had lots of intent, but had done very little action when she died.
  #206  
Old 01-21-2017, 02:49 PM
Sam Lowry Sam Lowry is offline
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The points system is influenced by the effects of your actions, not just your intent. Chidi made everyone he ever cared about completely miserable with his inability to make a decision. That makes him a bad person even though he didn't make them miserable on purpose.
Unless there was something that I misheard or misremember, then that means Tahani should be in the Good Place since the effects of her actions was that she raised a huge amount for charity. I don't think we heard what specific charities, but she was doing it to impress her parents, so I'm assuming that it was all for good, real causes that ended up doing real good, not all raising money for plastic surgery for dogs or to teach children semaphore or something. It seems that generally Tahani's motivations were bad but her actions were good, while Chidi's motivations were good but his actions were bad, it just seems inconsistent to me.

I'm guessing that there's more to the points, and maybe Tahani's name-dropping and condescension and other things we haven't seen canceled out her good, but it just makes me curious.
  #207  
Old 01-21-2017, 05:50 PM
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That's a fair point.

It might be that you need both good intentions and good results of your actions to be considered a good person.
  #208  
Old 01-21-2017, 06:07 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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We now that both Eleanor and Tahani's characters were shaped by their parents. We haven't heard a word about Chidi's or Jason's. (Or Mindy's.)

A subplot for next season, maybe.
  #209  
Old 01-21-2017, 06:36 PM
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Is a new season scheduled or what?
Not yet, but general expectation is it's likely.
  #210  
Old 01-21-2017, 10:53 PM
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That makes the Mindy issue a bit more problematic. She had lots of intent, but had done very little action when she died.
Since Tahani didn't qualify for the Good Place after all it seems like both intentions and actions do count. In Mindy's case, if what she had to say about herself was true then her actions included writing up a workable plan for a charity that was successfully implemented by her sister after her death. So Mindy didn't merely have good intentions, she got the ball rolling in a way that did make a practical difference.
  #211  
Old 01-21-2017, 11:37 PM
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Since Tahani didn't qualify for the Good Place after all it seems like both intentions and actions do count. In Mindy's case, if what she had to say about herself was true then her actions included writing up a workable plan for a charity that was successfully implemented by her sister after her death. So Mindy didn't merely have good intentions, she got the ball rolling in a way that did make a practical difference.
I dont buy Tahani and Chidi not qualifying, since it was clear they really were Good people, even with some faults. They didnt do any of the bad things Eleanor or what'shisname did.
  #212  
Old 01-21-2017, 11:53 PM
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I dont buy Tahani and Chidi not qualifying, since it was clear they really were Good people, even with some faults. They didnt do any of the bad things Eleanor or what'shisname did.
It's hard to know how much of what we've been told about how the Good Place works was true, but according to Michael only the very, very best people get into the Good Place. Just being a regular nice person apparently isn't enough.
  #213  
Old 01-22-2017, 12:30 AM
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It's hard to know how much of what we've been told about how the Good Place works was true, but according to Michael only the very, very best people get into the Good Place. Just being a regular nice person apparently isn't enough.
Yes, but we clearly can't trust Michael on that. Saying only the best of the best go to the Good Place can easily be interpreted as just a way to increase the pressure on Eleanor (who would take it to mean she really didn't belong in a Good Place neighborhood, as it was originally presented) which gets transferred to Chidi when she reveals this to him and he has to cover for her.
  #214  
Old 01-22-2017, 01:10 AM
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Yes, but we clearly can't trust Michael on that.
While we have very good reason to distrust Michael, this is the only information we have about how people are selected for the Good Place. As things stand, it's not a plot hole that Tahani and Chidi didn't get into the (real) Good Place. It's consistent with what we've been told about how things work.
  #215  
Old 01-22-2017, 02:57 AM
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I am confident that the conclusion was planned from the start, and wasn't compromised for the sake of a good joke if we were to rewatch the show. They would've thought this through carefully.
  #216  
Old 01-23-2017, 12:06 AM
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I am confident that the conclusion was planned from the start, and wasn't compromised for the sake of a good joke if we were to rewatch the show. They would've thought this through carefully.
It was definitely planned. I started (re-)watching it with my wife (who left off on episode 5), and I'm spotting so many dropped hints that it's actually just as fun to watch as the first go around.
  #217  
Old 01-23-2017, 12:26 AM
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It was definitely planned. I started (re-)watching it with my wife (who left off on episode 5), and I'm spotting so many dropped hints that it's actually just as fun to watch as the first go around.
The ubiquitous frozen yogurt stands alone should have been enough .
  #218  
Old 01-23-2017, 04:35 AM
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I suspect that one way to think about this show is to realize that with our human minds, anything over a few hundred years of eternity in ANY place would be very hard for us to enjoy.
  #219  
Old 01-23-2017, 08:39 AM
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Loved this show so much. All the acting was great, but Ted Danson's chuckle will haunt my dreams.
  #220  
Old 01-23-2017, 08:47 AM
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I realize that Eleanor missed a chance. The note in Janet's mouth should have read "This is the Bad Place."

For the next season to work, however, the four will have to figure out things much more quickly. This season hinged on being able to reveal the situation, but now that the situation is known, dragging out the discovery by the four will quickly get boring. It can't take 13 episodes again.
  #221  
Old 01-23-2017, 09:59 AM
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I realize that Eleanor missed a chance. The note in Janet's mouth should have read "This is the Bad Place."
I don't think so. What would "original flavor" Eleanor be able to do with the information that they're in the Bad Place? She'd go on a rampage of some kind, Michael would reset again, and that would be the end of it.

Chidi is the only person there who can turn Eleanor into a good person. It was a good move.
  #222  
Old 01-23-2017, 10:26 AM
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It was a fun twist. Danson did great.

My choice for a short note would have been "Only trust Chidi & Tahani!"
  #223  
Old 01-23-2017, 11:11 AM
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It's interesting that all episodes are online at NBC.com. Usually they only show four. I think they're hoping that word of mouth might make the show a hit next season.

I hope this doesn't end up like last year's You, Me, and the Apocalypse -- another NBC show with a story arc and a twist ending, but which didn't get the ratings to continue.
  #224  
Old 01-23-2017, 11:38 AM
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I am not a network programmer, but the ratings story doesn't look good to me.

Taking a two-month break didn't help, either.
  #225  
Old 01-23-2017, 03:33 PM
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I think Eleanor would be more likely to to just kick back and relax if she knew it was The Bad Place right off the bat. Her character growth with Chidi is gone, and while she'd be confused she wouldn't go on a rampage. She certainly wouldn't worry about being found out like she was the first cycle.

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  #226  
Old 01-23-2017, 11:40 PM
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I really loved this show, everything about it! But it would be fine if it ended the way it did. It would be fun to see a new round as well, but all the mystery would be gone.
  #227  
Old 01-24-2017, 12:42 AM
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I think Eleanor would be more likely to to just kick back and relax if she knew it was The Bad Place right off the bat.
As Bad Places go, this doesn't seem too bad. So she has a mildly annoying Ikea house (how long into the second run will it take for her to discover the hidden stairs?) with a creepy clown nook. The horror! I realize she didn't want to rock the boat and was trying to "pass" for what she understood to be "Real" Eleanor, but Jason could decorate his Budd-Hole as he chose, why couldn't she redecorate her house?
  #228  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:54 PM
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...I hope this doesn't end up like last year's You, Me, and the Apocalypse -- another NBC show with a story arc and a twist ending, but which didn't get the ratings to continue.
I want a 2nd season, but if it doesn't happen this was a satisfying ending.

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...For the next season to work, however, the four will have to figure out things much more quickly. This season hinged on being able to reveal the situation, but now that the situation is known, dragging out the discovery by the four will quickly get boring. It can't take 13 episodes again.
Good point. I wonder if Janet can restore erased memories (other than her own)? If it is normal "Good Place" practice to erase painful or unpleasant death memories maybe they can be restored on explicit request (which would have to be made to a Janet since Architects aren't normally on-hand in the neighborhood). Michael could've used the same system to erase their memories to reset everything. It would stand to reason that if he's stuck w/ a Good Janet (instead of reprograming a Bad Janet to pretend to be good) he might be stuck using a bunch of other Good Place templates designing 12358W.
  #229  
Old 01-24-2017, 11:15 PM
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The ubiquitous frozen yogurt stands alone should have been enough .
"Isn't it just like humans to take something great and ruin it just a little?"
  #230  
Old 01-25-2017, 12:22 AM
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I am not a network programmer, but the ratings story doesn't look good to me.
Those are considered decent numbers these days. Gone are the days of cancelling when the ratings dip below a 7, now they're delighted if it reaches a 2.
  #231  
Old 01-25-2017, 07:11 AM
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As Bad Places go, this doesn't seem too bad. So she has a mildly annoying Ikea house (how long into the second run will it take for her to discover the hidden stairs?) with a creepy clown nook. The horror!
Okay, try living in that neighborhood for a few hundred trillion years, see if it wears a little thin for you.
  #232  
Old 01-25-2017, 07:52 AM
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Okay, try living in that neighborhood for a few hundred trillion years, see if it wears a little thin for you.
That's the critical flaw with ANY eternal-afterlife concept, even "good" ones, unless the part of your personality that feels boredom gets left behind on the mortal plane.
  #233  
Old 01-25-2017, 08:49 AM
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A pontification about its chances with some other shows in comparison particularly in the 18-49 group. Looks like a reasonably good shot.

Anyone know how these systems track streaming on Hulu and such? Or if they do?

The angle next year may include the Columbo style bit - how do they figure it out - and different character growth.
  #234  
Old 01-25-2017, 09:01 AM
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A pontification about its chances with some other shows in comparison particularly in the 18-49 group. Looks like a reasonably good shot.

Anyone know how these systems track streaming on Hulu and such? Or if they do?

The angle next year may include the Columbo style bit - how do they figure it out - and different character growth.
From the link:

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The Renew/Cancel Index is the amount above (or below) a replacement-level rating — i.e., the expected adults 18-49 rating of an emergency fill-in show should a series be canceled. For the 2016-17 season, replacement level is a 0.7 same-day rating in adults 18-49 for the Big 4 networks and a 0.2 for The CW. The index number is taken by subtracting 0.7 (or 0.2) from a show’s average same-day rating.
I've read that paragraph through several times and I still can't understand what it means. Could someone explain it better?
  #235  
Old 01-25-2017, 09:17 AM
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I've read that paragraph through several times and I still can't understand what it means. Could someone explain it better?
They're going to run it up the flagpole and see who salutes.
  #236  
Old 01-25-2017, 10:21 AM
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Anyone know how these systems track streaming on Hulu and such? Or if they do?
According to this article, Nielsen tracks live viewing plus DVR viewing within seven days. Other links mention that they also track live plus same-day DVR viewing (where same day is defined as 3am-3am) and live plus three-day.

As for streaming via Hulu, the networks actually own Hulu, so I'll bet they know exactly how many people watch a show via it, and when.
  #237  
Old 01-25-2017, 11:19 AM
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I've read that paragraph through several times and I still can't understand what it means. Could someone explain it better?
I don't think it's a common stat (I've never seen it before), but it is a stat for this site. It assumes that NBC (and the other big 4 networks, ABC, CBS, FOX) can throw pretty much anything on the air (a sitcom repeat, special "news" programming, etc.) and get ratings of at least .7 (they use a slightly different calculation for Friday nights). The Renew/Cancel index is how much better that show did than a hypothetical replacement show. Or in other words, how many more people watched this than would watch an SVU rerun?

Actually, seeing it's subtracting a constant (except for the weird Friday show adjustment), it's an incredibly redundant statistic.
  #238  
Old 01-25-2017, 11:29 AM
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The problem with trying to decipher what it takes to get into the 'good place' is that no one is actually referring to the Bible. good works are not particularly important, acknowledgement that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God, is paramount.

I haven't seen any sense of wanting to worship at the foot of the throne, either. Nor golden slippers. This program is not based in sound theology!!!
  #239  
Old 01-25-2017, 11:35 AM
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The problem with trying to decipher what it takes to get into the 'good place' is that no one is actually referring to the Bible. good works are not particularly important, acknowledgement that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God, is paramount.

I haven't seen any sense of wanting to worship at the foot of the throne, either. Nor golden slippers. This program is not based in sound theology!!!
I'm guessing that you are being facetious, but if not: They addressed that in the first episode. Michael explained that all of the world's organized religions largely have it wrong about the afterlife. None of them are even close to having it figured out, in other words. That's one of the central, crucial foundations of the show.

As for being renewed, there is more to it than ratings. Network-owned shows have a better chance of renewal than outside-produced shows. This one is produced by Universal Studios, so that is a strike against renewal. But we probably won't know for sure for another couple of months.
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Old 01-25-2017, 12:02 PM
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So, I finally watched it - That was probably one of the best twists I've ever seen, my jaw was literally hanging open after the reveal. Will be interest to see where they go from there next season as the mystery aspect is over. Maybe more stuff with Michael's behind-the-scenes machinations to prevent the 4 from knowing where they are?
  #241  
Old 01-25-2017, 12:33 PM
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As for being renewed, there is more to it than ratings. Network-owned shows have a better chance of renewal than outside-produced shows. This one is produced by Universal Studios, so that is a strike against renewal. But we probably won't know for sure for another couple of months.
Universal owns NBC, so that's a chip in the show's favor, not against.
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Old 01-25-2017, 12:34 PM
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Universal owns NBC, so that's a chip in the show's favor, not against.
Didn't know that. You're right, that makes renewal somewhat more likely.
  #243  
Old 01-25-2017, 01:21 PM
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Just a side note any marshmallows out there--there is talk from Rob Thomas about the possibility of a new Veronica Mars mini-series, which would be a very good thing indeed. (If you enjoyed Kristen's work in The Good Place, you should definitely check out Veronica Mars).
  #244  
Old 01-25-2017, 02:54 PM
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Universal owns NBC, so that's a chip in the show's favor, not against.
I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that. NBC is owned by the Sheinhardt Wig Company.
  #245  
Old 01-25-2017, 03:35 PM
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I've been a casual watcher of the show, haven't seen all the episodes but I've watched the last few episodes on demand.

Certainly, one of the best and best executed plot twists I've seen. I love the set up for next season (please!) but not sure what they can do beyond that. Now I have to go watch the series in order from the beginning and look for clues.

I also have a nagging feeling that a big reveal remaining could be that they're really in the Good Place or some third place and this is all about giving the inhabitants an opportunity for growth.
  #246  
Old 01-25-2017, 03:35 PM
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I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that. NBC is owned by the Sheinhardt Wig Company.
Cite?
  #247  
Old 01-25-2017, 09:29 PM
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According to this article, Nielsen tracks live viewing plus DVR viewing within seven days. Other links mention that they also track live plus same-day DVR viewing (where same day is defined as 3am-3am) and live plus three-day.

As for streaming via Hulu, the networks actually own Hulu, so I'll bet they know exactly how many people watch a show via it, and when.
I suspect that they do ... but how does it factor into the listed ratings (I don't think it does) and the decisions that get made?

There are more now who stream than watch live tv. Those rating numbers (I think) completely exclude the numbers who stream the show. And the value of the stream viewers is different without advertisers.

I strongly suspect that different shows available both live and streaming have different shares of streamers vs live viewers.
  #248  
Old 01-25-2017, 09:54 PM
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Cite?
NBC Universal Org Chart.
  #249  
Old 01-25-2017, 10:26 PM
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Drunky Smurf Drunky Smurf is offline
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
So, I finally watched it - That was probably one of the best twists I've ever seen, my jaw was literally hanging open after the reveal. Will be interest to see where they go from there next season as the mystery aspect is over. Maybe more stuff with Michael's behind-the-scenes machinations to prevent the 4 from knowing where they are?
I just watched it and Holy forking shirtballs. That was some great TV.


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Originally Posted by RealityChuck View Post
I realize that Eleanor missed a chance. The note in Janet's mouth should have read "This is the Bad Place."
I totally thought that was going to be what the note said.


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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Loved this show so much. All the acting was great, but Ted Danson's chuckle will haunt my dreams.
I've loved Ted Danson since Cheers and he's still got the chops.

I also loved Todd the lava monster. This big scary monster and he's all apologetic for interrupting Michaels meeting.
  #250  
Old 01-25-2017, 10:27 PM
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Alley Dweller Alley Dweller is online now
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Originally Posted by kunilou View Post
Universal owns NBC, so that's a chip in the show's favor, not against.
I think I've got this right, but corrections are welcome.

Comcast owns NBC Universal.
NBC Universal owns both NBC Broadcasting and NBC Universal Television Group.

NBC Universal Television Group owns Universal Television.
Universal Television produces The Good Place.

NBC Broadcasting owns NBC Universal Television Distribution.
NBC Universal Television Distribution distributes The Good Place.

In other words, NBC Universal owns both Universal and NBC.
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