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  #51  
Old 01-02-2018, 08:41 PM
jsc1953 jsc1953 is offline
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Originally Posted by choie View Post
...
Shows about comedy have a tough job. It reminds me of Aaron Sorkin's Studio 60, which was about a brilliant, subversive late night comedy show produced by the lead characters. Time and time again we were told how hilarious and groundbreaking and important this pseudo-SNL was. The headwriters (Matthew Perry and Bradley Whitford) spoke passionately about their show's awesome output. And yet, whenever we heard bits from the scripts, or saw sketches on the show, they were duds.
Yes! That exact same analogy occurred to me too! (Although I think I liked the show overall more than you did.) It's one thing to write about comedy...writing comedy itself is different. And harder. (I was going to say it was beyond Sorkin's ability, but Sports Night was often hilarious.)
  #52  
Old 01-03-2018, 01:49 PM
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Okay, I'm gonna be that person. I don't like the show.

Well... I should say, I do like aspects of it. The clothing, the 1950s-era-invoking, NYC Jewish culture stuff (most of which is pleasantly nostalgic for me!), Tony Shalhoub, Marin Hinkle, music... all are very good.

Unfortunately, the main aspect I don't like is the lead character, aka The Marvelous Mary Sue.

See, I find her annoying as hell. The actress is fine, sometimes excellent with the dramatic stuff or the slices-of-life involving being newly single and dealing with such a huge life change.

But the chief problem is that to me, this supposedly brilliant comedian is not funny. (I know comedy is subjective, and most people adore this show, so I totally acknowledge I'm probably the weird one.)

Like, I have never laughed at all during her comedy "bits," including both when she (obnoxiously) holds court and hogs attention in real life, as well as the amazing freeform stand-up that pretty much consists of shocking us with the fact of a 1950s woman saying "fuck" a lot and talking about sex. Ooh. Edgy.

The show itself has funny moments. But y'know, when your character is meant to be the most daring, charismatic, funniest woman anyone's ever met, to the point where no one less than LENNY BRUCE is instantly enamored of her--well, that chick had better frickin' make me laugh. And she doesn't. (Your mileage may, and clearly does, differ.)

To me, the Lenny Bruce thing is really the worst. It's why Midge is such a Mary Sue--the writers just had to prop up their lead's street-cred as a comic by using the biggest and most iconic name in comedy as an imprimatur. It makes me cringe with embarrassment. I almost feel outraged on behalf of the estate of Lenny Bruce, that they're using him this way.

It's like writing about a composer and putting a fictionalized Leonard Bernstein in the script to fawn all over the new guy. Especially when the so-called genius's music sounds like subpar Coldplay.

Shows about comedy have a tough job. It reminds me of Aaron Sorkin's Studio 60, which was about a brilliant, subversive late night comedy show produced by the lead characters. Time and time again we were told how hilarious and groundbreaking and important this pseudo-SNL was. The headwriters (Matthew Perry and Bradley Whitford) spoke passionately about their show's awesome output. And yet, whenever we heard bits from the scripts, or saw sketches on the show, they were duds.

(At least 30 Rock was smart enough to make it clear that they knew the show-within-a-show was crap.)

Anyway. I think part of my problem was the paeans to this show's brilliance by friends and family and critics before I sat down to watch it. I genuinely wanted the show to be awesome. I love period pieces, and I thrive on comedy. But I sat through episode after episode, hoping that I'd warm up to it. I didn't just tune in on the pilot--I gave it a fair shot. But it just didn't work for me.

Whew. Okay, I vented my spleen. I know I didn't convince anyone, and I'm glad others are having fun with the show. Just wanted to express my disappointment with something that I'd been looking forward to. I'm not surprised it got renewed, given how many people love it! I'll just find my yuks elsewhere.
Yes !! I watched three episodes and was thinking of writing a similar post but you have said it a lot better. Mrs Maisel is just not very funny and that kind of breaks the show for me. I found Tony Shaloub's linear algebra rant funnier than anything from her. And like you I like a lot of the period stuff. I think I would have really enjoyed a show where she became a journalist or activist or something.
  #53  
Old 01-03-2018, 03:57 PM
epolo epolo is offline
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Loved the show. I actually found the standup pretty funny. And I thought it was supposed to be clear that Bruce was enamoured of her partly because he liked her comedy and partly because she is ridiculously pretty. I took it that that was essential to the character.

The few things that bothered me have mostly been mentioned. The New York accents from several actors, particularly the lead, were bad enough to be distracting. And the slang as totally anachronistic. John McWhorter called that out on his linguistics podcast. Also, and this is really mostly related to the accents, it's very strange to me that they seem to have filled a cast of almost entirely Jewish characters with almost entirely non-jewish actors. I love Tony Shaloub and his performance was funny; but I didn't buy him as a mid century upper west side Jew.

Last, to whomever asked about the bedroom off the kitchen: yes, it would have originally been a maid's room. Most of those eventually got converted to kids' bedrooms when live in maids went out of fashion. The apartment was referred to as a "classic six", which typically includes a maid's room. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Six


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  #54  
Old 01-03-2018, 04:32 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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Also, and this is really mostly related to the accents, it's very strange to me that they seem to have filled a cast of almost entirely Jewish characters with almost entirely non-jewish actors.
Say what? Yes, as you mentioned, Shalhoub isn't Jewish, but being Lebanese, he does capture some Middle eastern-ness which helps mitigate that. However, Brosnahan is definitely Jewish (culturally if not religious). Zegen (Mr. Maisal) is Jewish - his parents were even Holocaust survivors. Alex Borstein (Susie) is Jewish.

That's 3 major characters (though I guess one could say that Shalhoub is more of a major character than Zegen and that's fair).
  #55  
Old 01-03-2018, 06:04 PM
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Say what? Yes, as you mentioned, Shalhoub isn't Jewish, but being Lebanese, he does capture some Middle eastern-ness which helps mitigate that. However, Brosnahan is definitely Jewish (culturally if not religious). Zegen (Mr. Maisal) is Jewish - his parents were even Holocaust survivors. Alex Borstein (Susie) is Jewish.



That's 3 major characters (though I guess one could say that Shalhoub is more of a major character than Zegen and that's fair).


Huh. Ignorance fought. Based on her name, I would have thought Brosnahan was Irish. Wikipedia says she's from Wisconsin though. I'm pretty sure Lenny Bruce would say that makes her goyish even if she's Jewish. Her accent is terrible either way.

Shaloub is of course middle eastern but I would expect the character to be German-Jewish. I like his performance but it just seems an odd choice to me. Then again, these are minor nitpicks; they are all acting after all.


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  #56  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:21 PM
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Just FYI, Mrs Maisel is FREE for everyone, no Prime needed, through Monday 1/15/18.

This is in celebration of the Golden Globe win.
  #57  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:18 PM
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I'm enjoying the hell out of this one. Having grown up Jewish, I've a keen ear and eye for whether schtick is on the ball or bad schtick. This show is hitting an awful lot of home runs, IMHO.

I grew up in Philly and have lived in NY since 1981. I would agree with those who are nitpicking around her NY accent. It's uneven. Now, I shot a movie with British actor ( and all-around good guy ) Tim Roth. He had the same dialogue coach, at that point, through his entire career. He and she made sure his Staten Island accent was consistent and accurate. I suspect that either the star here doesn't have a good dialogue coach, OR there isn't time for re-takes because her accent slipped. That said, I think she's a minor miracle of accuracy. This is because she is portraying the Very Intelligent Jewish American Princess with breathtaking accuracy. I grew up with these girls. I dated them as young women, and I'm friends with them now that we're all in our 50's. She is just nailing it, nailing it, nailing it.

Most of the cast is. I knew men like Kevin Pollack- who at first really came off as a bit of a caricature. But he's not. A lot of the extras and bit part casting is minor miracles of found talent. The elevator operator in her building? Genius. Some of Jane's best work- the writing in her scenes is superb. I'm seeing that character as someone who started out as a nothing schlub from Flushing. Paid her dues. Made it big, then made it massively America Adores Her big. Then had to learn how to put on the ritz. The scene with her servants? That shot through the door off of the foyer in her mansion? Oh my god. SHE is such new money that the downstairs maids have contempt for her. And yet her way is to give a quiet reserved WASPish " Fuck You " to the servants, the world, everyone- by showing her perfectly she has learned to put on that ritz. What a great character, actually. I don't see it as broad strokes. ( heh heh heh ). I see Jane's character as painfully alone, despite the adoring fans who surround her on stage after the show.

Tony's an actor's actor. His use of his body as an instrument is a treat. As much as the husband reminds me of the character "Sack" from The Wedding Crashers, he loves her in the First Gal I Really Loved kinda way. I don't think they will last. I'd hate to see him become her Agent, clashing week in and week out against Alex Borstein's harsh agent. Too easy. And it also would feel like the caterpillar only half-emerging from the cocoon. ( I'm not the only one who caught that symbolism when she shed her tulle top of her outfit to bare her True Self in the pilot, am I? )

It's funny and broad and messy. And I must say, I find it utterly believable that Lenny Bruce would have befriended her. Not a stretch in the least, actually.

Re: the Classic 6. My ex brother in law and his wife own one on the Upper West Size, near 96th & West End. That small room off of the kitchen? They turned into a minuscule computer room/ bedroom with a fold-open futon. Many a night I slept there. That's a thing. Not a made-up convention for the show.

I find the patter and phrasing in the larger family scenes endearing, not just because I grew up around adults who were that age in the 1940's/ 1950's. But because the rhythms and dialogue ring true to ANY large family. It's not cliché "Jewish family speak". Watch Cher and company in "Moonstruck". Same endearing rhythms, same crisp witty dialogue. It's good writing. I hope it wins an Emmy for the writers.

The use of modern-day phrases is lazy. Plain and simple. Something that never would have made it past Matthew Weiner on "Mad Men". They need to have someone reading scripts JUST for era-appropriate phrasing.

Cannot wait for Season Two and yet, I must. I might watch the whole schmeg again before that !!!
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  #58  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:07 AM
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Season Two is released.
I watched the first two episodes last night.
It was great.
  #59  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:44 AM
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Listening to my friends and reading this thread, I thought, "What's wrong with me? What am I missing?" Until I read this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by choie View Post
Okay, I'm gonna be that person. I don't like the show.

Well... I should say, I do like aspects of it. The clothing, the 1950s-era-invoking, NYC Jewish culture stuff (most of which is pleasantly nostalgic for me!), Tony Shalhoub, Marin Hinkle, music... all are very good.

...<snip>...

Whew. Okay, I vented my spleen. I know I didn't convince anyone, and I'm glad others are having fun with the show. Just wanted to express my disappointment with something that I'd been looking forward to. I'm not surprised it got renewed, given how many people love it! I'll just find my yuks elsewhere.
And this:
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Originally Posted by Lantern View Post
Yes !! I watched three episodes and was thinking of writing a similar post but you have said it a lot better. Mrs Maisel is just not very funny and that kind of breaks the show for me. I found Tony Shaloub's linear algebra rant funnier than anything from her. And like you I like a lot of the period stuff. I think I would have really enjoyed a show where she became a journalist or activist or something.
I wanted to like the show. I love the 50s setting (hell, I'm re-watching Perry Mason and Route 66 because of the original settings). I love the New York Jewish thing. I generally love fast-paced, witty dialogue (adore Aaron Sorkin), and I've been in love with Tony Shaloub ever since Wings (he was the ONLY sexy guy on that show). But this show... I just hated it. I couldn't get through the second episode. I hated the loud, obnoxious, aggressive way the characters interact. It did seem Joan Rivers-ish to me, and I couldn't stand her (may she rest in peace). To me the show is just annoying, not funny. Maybe I should give it another try. Fifty million Dopers can't be wrong, right?
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  #60  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
Listening to my friends and reading this thread, I thought, "What's wrong with me? What am I missing?" Until I read this:And this:
I wanted to like the show. I love the 50s setting (hell, I'm re-watching Perry Mason and Route 66 because of the original settings). I love the New York Jewish thing. I generally love fast-paced, witty dialogue (adore Aaron Sorkin), and I've been in love with Tony Shaloub ever since Wings (he was the ONLY sexy guy on that show). But this show... I just hated it. I couldn't get through the second episode. I hated the loud, obnoxious, aggressive way the characters interact. It did seem Joan Rivers-ish to me, and I couldn't stand her (may she rest in peace). To me the show is just annoying, not funny. Maybe I should give it another try. Fifty million Dopers can't be wrong, right?
If the NYC "loud, obnoxious, aggressive" stuff bothers you, I doubt a second try will help. To me Alex Borstein's Susie might be the best character on the show, at least for laughs, and "loud, obnoxious, aggressive" is exactly what she is and pretty much all she is.
  #61  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:57 AM
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Season Two is released.
I watched the first two episodes last night.
It was great.
For the first time ever, I watched an episode, too. It was interesting.
  #62  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:36 AM
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If the NYC "loud, obnoxious, aggressive" stuff bothers you, I doubt a second try will help. To me Alex Borstein's Susie might be the best character on the show, at least for laughs, and "loud, obnoxious, aggressive" is exactly what she is and pretty much all she is.
As I said, I generally love fast-paced, witty dialogue. I loved Seinfeld, so the New York Jewish thing in and of itself was not a problem. It's the Joan Rivers-ish, aggressive, sort of whiny flavor that turns me off. I think I'll just write this one off.
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  #63  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:39 AM
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Oh, I've missed this show so! Watched 2 episodes last night and it's just as good as Season 1.

(FWIW, I'm a huge fan of Seinfeld and from New Jersey originally, so the fast paced witty aggressive and whiny dialogue is not only something I enjoy but also rings true to how some people actually speak up north)

Last edited by ISiddiqui; 12-06-2018 at 10:42 AM.
  #64  
Old 12-07-2018, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
Listening to my friends and reading this thread, I thought, "What's wrong with me? What am I missing?" Until I read this:And this:
I wanted to like the show. I love the 50s setting (hell, I'm re-watching Perry Mason and Route 66 because of the original settings). I love the New York Jewish thing. I generally love fast-paced, witty dialogue (adore Aaron Sorkin), and I've been in love with Tony Shaloub ever since Wings (he was the ONLY sexy guy on that show). But this show... I just hated it. I couldn't get through the second episode. I hated the loud, obnoxious, aggressive way the characters interact. It did seem Joan Rivers-ish to me, and I couldn't stand her (may she rest in peace). To me the show is just annoying, not funny. Maybe I should give it another try. Fifty million Dopers can't be wrong, right?
Not everything is for everyone. All my friends are currently doing the annual holiday "Love Actually" splurge, but they are all wrong, it is a horrible movie that I can't imagine anyone ever liking....(obviously, they all do, but its a movie that leaves me feeling used).

Binged all of Season 2 and now waiting for Season 3.
  #65  
Old 12-07-2018, 08:12 PM
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Oh, I've missed this show so! Watched 2 episodes last night and it's just as good as Season 1.

(FWIW, I'm a huge fan of Seinfeld and from New Jersey originally, so the fast paced witty aggressive and whiny dialogue is not only something I enjoy but also rings true to how some people actually speak up north)
I like the show and have seen two eps (loved Abe's description of Rose leaving him, without realizing she left him). If you like Gilmore Girls or Bunheads, you'll like this. I have the usual mild gripe that Palladino's female characters tend towards being obnoxiously immature (Rose's constant tantrums remind me of Lorelai and Emily) but overall a fun show with great period sets and costumes.
  #66  
Old 12-07-2018, 08:46 PM
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Episode 3 had me laughing so hard. "You actually call it the punishment room"
"Our Lady of Perpetual Sadness".

I enjoyed episode 4 a lot also. Welcome Chuck from Chuck. I mean Zachary Levi.

My wife and I are limited ourselves to no more than 2 eps a day.
  #67  
Old 12-07-2018, 08:47 PM
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Not everything is for everyone. All my friends are currently doing the annual holiday "Love Actually" splurge, but they are all wrong, it is a horrible movie that I can't imagine anyone ever liking....(obviously, they all do, but its a movie that leaves me feeling used).

...
Oh, thank og. I don't get the love of "Love Actually" at all actually. It is not a great movie, it is not even a good movie to me.
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:56 PM
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The Steiner Ranch episodes are fantastic.
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  #69  
Old 12-10-2018, 12:56 PM
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Finished it last night. The bit with Rufus Sewell was good, as was her interactions with Zachary Levi. I would have liked to see more of Rose studying art at Columbia and she should have had a completely different reaction to Abe's story arc, imo. I think my favorite was the telethon episode (and if you ever wondered if Danny DeVito would make a cute girl, you've got your answer in this one).
  #70  
Old 12-19-2018, 05:16 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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I like the show and have seen two eps (loved Abe's description of Rose leaving him, without realizing she left him). If you like Gilmore Girls or Bunheads, you'll like this. I have the usual mild gripe that Palladino's female characters tend towards being obnoxiously immature (Rose's constant tantrums remind me of Lorelai and Emily) but overall a fun show with great period sets and costumes.
I would argue that Abe is probably the most obnoxiously immature person on the show.

Anyways, a really good season with some growth in Midge's career (and some of the struggles of the comedy business, but only for a bit). Liked how they started exploring (just barely) some class issues between Midge and Suzy. The love story was charming as well. However...

SPOILER:
The ending was completely jarring! It's interesting that Midge thinks career > family, but to go back to Joel 'for a night' was shocking
  #71  
Old 12-20-2018, 09:18 AM
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I tried to watch the 2nd season of Mrs. Maisel and somehow ended up watching The Tony Shaloub Show.

Seriously, since when is he the star of the show? The Paris and Catskills episodes basically revolved around him. And who cares about his job situation?

Now, he was great in Galaxy Quest, Monk and did I mention Galaxy Quest? But he's not the reason I'm watching this show.

What's with the closing songs being from much later eras? There were great songs in 1959 they could use. And dancing to Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful Life" in Paris in 1959? Sorry, not without a time machine.

Luke Kirby's Lenny Bruce reminds me of the HHGttG line: "... a liquid that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea." So close but not at all right. If he tried acting less like Lenny it might work better.

And they way these people ignore the kids so much unless they need them as a plot device to Show Conflict. Egad.

I want my Midge. I want standup. I want the fun.
  #72  
Old 12-20-2018, 10:32 AM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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I tried to watch the 2nd season of Mrs. Maisel and somehow ended up watching The Tony Shaloub Show.

Seriously, since when is he the star of the show? The Paris and Catskills episodes basically revolved around him. And who cares about his job situation?
Because Tony Shaloub is great . And it seemed like this season wanted to flesh out a bit more of the background characters. Joel got far more time and more plot lines than he did in Season 1 as well. Though I do disagree that the Catskills episode revolved around him (I found it far more about the ridiculous situation of taking 2 months off all the while Susie trying to figure out how to get Midge bookings - although the Paris one may have).

And Midge did quite a bit of standup this season.
  #73  
Old 12-22-2018, 01:30 PM
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I would argue that Abe is probably the most obnoxiously immature person on the show.
I'd go along with that for this season. Last season, he was managing Rose's tantrums - this season (post-Paris) was pretty much all about his own tantrums.

Quote:
Anyways, a really good season with some growth in Midge's career (and some of the struggles of the comedy business, but only for a bit). Liked how they started exploring (just barely) some class issues between Midge and Suzy. The love story was charming as well. However...

SPOILER:
The ending was completely jarring! It's interesting that Midge thinks career > family, but to go back to Joel 'for a night' was shocking
As for the spoilers...

SPOILER:
They prepped Midge for that choice with Lenny Bruce and Declan Howell making affecting speeches about the sacrifices art requires, though I'd have expected Midge to fight that mindset a little. There was no reason to think Benjamin wouldn't have been supportive of her career. Her cheating with Joel left a sour taste...

I also felt Rose should have been furious with Abe. They left Paris so he could continue to teach and work at Bell labs - she gave up her happiness for him. Now he announces he's throwing both away?
  #74  
Old 12-23-2018, 10:57 AM
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I finished the second season yesterday. The thread title includes "spoilers," so I'm not going to use spoiler boxes for anything (even though others have)...fair warning!

I loved it, right up until the last 10 minutes. I loved that all of the characters got some development, and I loved Benjamin as a partner for Midge. But the reaction to seeing Lenny's "all alone" act and feeling like that was her destiny should have been going to Benjamin -- not going to Joel to cheat on Benjamin ("I need to be with someone who loves me"??? *gag*). Just like she should have told Benjamin about the tour as soon as she realized that she'd forgotten all about whether Abe was going to approve of Benjamin asking Midge to marry him (I thought Rachel Brosnahan acted that moment well, FWIW). I kind of understood Midge calling Joel when the club owner locked Susie in a closet and wouldn't pay, but those other things seemed out-of-character to me. The season ended with me not liking Midge very much as a person, for the first time.

Joel was kind of annoying. All of his whining about wanting to be forgiven, and then accusing Midge of leaving him...he seems to have completely forgotten that he's the one who said "no" to their reconciliation, because he couldn't handle her comedy career. I thought maybe he was finally going to grow up and start getting past it, but then Midge showed up.

Yes, it's mildly annoying that the kids are always an afterthought (literally, in one scene), but it doesn't strike me as unrealistic. Wealthy parents have always had other people raise their children. Even though it's a different time period and country I keep thinking about Downton Abbey, and how the children might have spent all of one hour per day with their parents; it's less extreme on this show, but I don't think the attitude of the wealthy toward child-rearing changed all that much in 50-60 years.

I think Rose was upset enough with Abe: reminding him that the university owns their apartment, etc. His spending time in Paris with her was both a testament to his love for her and a turning point for him, even though the latter didn't manifest until the end of the season. Both Rose and Abe have changed. I'm definitely going to watch Season 3, but it might be mostly to find out what Abe has up his sleeve after that meeting with the (apparently) criminal lawyer!
  #75  
Old 12-23-2018, 12:14 PM
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. . .

Luke Kirby's Lenny Bruce reminds me of the HHGttG line: "... a liquid that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea." So close but not at all right. If he tried acting less like Lenny it might work better.
. . .
The trouble with that is, if you did a proper Lenny Bruce these days, people would wonder what PeeWee Herman was doing in the show.

Last edited by TruCelt; 12-23-2018 at 12:15 PM.
  #76  
Old 12-26-2018, 05:00 PM
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I rolled my eyes and gritted my teeth when my partner wanted to watch another of his highbrow, talky shows. I like my entertainment visual, like superhero shows, and I don't apologize for it. But I found myself drawn into "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel," and we binged several hours of it.

The lead is engaging and eminently likable. I can't say I laughed out loud at any of her monologues, but they were cute and entertaining. I think the actress is very talented.

I find her mother annoying and slap-worthy. Especially the scene in which Alex Borstein's character got tongue-tied and flustered while talking to her on the phone. I would think that such a brassy, don't-give-a-damn character would have said, "Look, lady - I gave you all the information you need. Your daughter is going to be late and she needs you to watch her kids a while longer. You don't need to know who I am, and any further information can come from your daughter."

I did notice a couple of the anachronistic expressions, and I also wonder about the depiction of Jews, Blacks, and whites hanging out so casually in the 1950s. Can anyone comment on that?
  #77  
Old 12-26-2018, 09:17 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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SPOILER:
They prepped Midge for that choice with Lenny Bruce and Declan Howell making affecting speeches about the sacrifices art requires, though I'd have expected Midge to fight that mindset a little. There was no reason to think Benjamin wouldn't have been supportive of her career. Her cheating with Joel left a sour taste...



I also felt Rose should have been furious with Abe. They left Paris so he could continue to teach and work at Bell labs - she gave up her happiness for him. Now he announces he's throwing both away?
Regarding the prep, I was fearing she was going to do the opposite. Realizing she had to make a choice and choose the safe family life - though yes it wasn't as black and white that Midge made it.

And I did think Rose was pretty angry at Abe's choice, but they also did cut before Abe laid out his plan. It could involve Paris after all.

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Last edited by ISiddiqui; 12-26-2018 at 09:17 PM.
  #78  
Old 01-16-2019, 09:14 AM
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I agree with many who love the show, but were taken aback with the last 10 minutes of the last episode. These include (spoilers):

- I agree that Midge has done some very selfish, unlikabale things in this last show. She cheated on Benjamin and is teasing Joel. She gets a bit of a pass because she's an attractive female character, but I didn't like it. I wonder if there will be an accounting for this is seeaon 3 or if this will just be waved away.

- This show reminds me of "Masters of Sex" which I also loved in that the children are mearly props, to be ignored for episodes or days at a time, and trotted out when convienent. Her childern were of no consideration when she signed up for a 6 month tour.

- In short, she has become increasingly selfcentered and somewhat unlikeable.
  #79  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:10 AM
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SIDE NOTE. Does anyone think it's weird that Midge's childhood bedroom is right off the kitchen? For such a tony apartment is seems odd -- and more like a bedroom for a live-in maid.
When my Dad was little, his family was an 11-people household: parents, widowed mother, unmarried aunt, five children, cook and maid. You entered directly into a large square room from which one hallway led to the "grown-up" side, the other to the "service and children" side. I've seen similar flats in other Spanish towns; the large "service" side always included "and children". So for me that's one particular bit which doesn't seem surprising at all.




Re. being too pretty: there used to be a kind of actor which in Spanish was called galán cómico; Dean Martin would have been an American example. A comedian attractive enough to be the loverboy. I think Mrs. Maisel would simply be the female version: yes, she's pretty, but she's mainly a comedian.
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  #80  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:43 AM
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Someone told me Mort Sahl's character was in the show. Is it a bad impression? I haven't seen this (or hardly any TV shows)

Last edited by MortSahlFan; 01-16-2019 at 10:44 AM.
  #81  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:22 AM
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Someone told me Mort Sahl's character was in the show. Is it a bad impression? I haven't seen this (or hardly any TV shows)
Unless he appears in the finale (the only episode I haven't seen yet) ... no. I think they may refer to him once, but that's it. The only real world person who's a character on the show is Lenny Bruce.
  #82  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:25 AM
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Unless he appears in the finale (the only episode I haven't seen yet) ... no. I think they may refer to him once, but that's it. The only real world person who's a character on the show is Lenny Bruce.
Does a show like this have to get Lenny Bruce's estate's permission to use him as a character in the show?
  #83  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:46 AM
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I like the way they developed Joel because they didn't chicken out and leave him as an inconstant douche. So often the cheater will excuse what they've done as "a mistake" and expect everyone will forgive them--and that's lame. But as season 1 wore on, you get the idea that Midge was a handful all the time, and that maybe he thought he'd prefer his brainless secretary--theirs was a very patriarchal circle of friends, after all, and Joel was definitely not going to be the head of any household inhabited by Midge. Sure enough, he's sorry right away but he also grows a pair of balls that you suspect weren't there in ep 1. It's like he saw every good thing in his life had been given to him, and that made him weak and complacent, and he set out to earn what he had and wanted. I ended up liking him a lot.

And this...
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I loved that all of the characters got some development, and I loved Benjamin as a partner for Midge. But the reaction to seeing Lenny's "all alone" act and feeling like that was her destiny should have been going to Benjamin -- not going to Joel to cheat on Benjamin ("I need to be with someone who loves me"??? *gag*). Just like she should have told Benjamin about the tour as soon as she realized that she'd forgotten all about whether Abe was going to approve of Benjamin asking Midge to marry him (I thought Rachel Brosnahan acted that moment well, FWIW). I kind of understood Midge calling Joel when the club owner locked Susie in a closet and wouldn't pay, but those other things seemed out-of-character to me.
...makes some sense, but there is no doubt Joel and Midge had a meaningful bond that Midge and Benjamin did not have. Could not have, because Midge was too much for him. Doctor Ben was educated, but not really smart. He was familiar with culture, but couldn't feel it as an artist does. At the end of season 2, Midge was making a huge decision, and she needed someone familiar and strong, and who would understand what she was doing, and why she needed to do it. And who would let her do it without trying to talk her out of it. That's Joel. Benjamin might understand she wanted something, and permit it to happen. But Joel would grok and bless it.

I don't think she's cheating on anyone, I think she's just doing what she does, which is to be Midge. She's being true to herself.

Last edited by Inigo Montoya; 01-16-2019 at 11:48 AM.
  #84  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:20 PM
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Unless he appears in the finale (the only episode I haven't seen yet) ... no. I think they may refer to him once, but that's it. The only real world person who's a character on the show is Lenny Bruce.
Correction: In the episode where Midge's time slot at the club keeps getting pushed back, and she's treated rudely and condescendingly by the owner and other comics. One of the disruptions is because Jackie Vernon makes an unannounced visit -- he was also a real-world comic of the time period.
  #85  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:39 PM
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I don't think she's cheating on anyone, I think she's just doing what she does, which is to be Midge.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Being all-but-engaged to someone and then sleeping with your ex is definitely cheating.
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Old 01-16-2019, 12:46 PM
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Except the all-but-engaged isn't really something she was seeking. She might eventually at some point have wanted to become engaged-then-married to Benjamin, but at that point she was still in "let's have fun together" mode, while he was in "OMG finally a woman whose company I actually enjoy let's get married" mode. She was being supportive of his nerves asking her dad for permission to ask her () more because that behavior was ingrained so long as the guy wasn't run-away-repelling, not so much because of personal enthusiasm.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya View Post
I like the way they developed Joel because they didn't chicken out and leave him as an inconstant douche. So often the cheater will excuse what they've done as "a mistake" and expect everyone will forgive them--and that's lame. But as season 1 wore on, you get the idea that Midge was a handful all the time, and that maybe he thought he'd prefer his brainless secretary--theirs was a very patriarchal circle of friends, after all, and Joel was definitely not going to be the head of any household inhabited by Midge.
I get the impression that a lot of them are a lot more patriarchal on the surface than inside. Many fall somewhere between "I make every decision (except those on stuff I don't care about, which actually happens to be most daily stuff)" and "I make all important decisions, but there haven't been any important ones since I got married". I know quite a few rl couples where the husband lows "Iiiiii'm a buuuuuuulll! Iiiiiii'm the moooooost machoooooo!" while his quietly-smiling wife drives him like a toy car. But of course, to someone who doesn't understand what those wives are doing, it absolutely looks like Mr. Bull is in charge.

Last edited by Nava; 01-16-2019 at 12:50 PM.
  #87  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:56 PM
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Well, they're still married, so... I can agree she's treading a grey area that I'm not entirely comfortable with. In the storm of marital chaos Joel is getting his fill of unsatisfying bimbos, but he wants real Midge (not the "perfect Midge" he left), Midge is entertaining the possibility of Dr. Right who just isn't right; but she wants her children's father and the guy who will actively stand for her. And Dr. Right is ultimately meddling in an unresolved marriage--if he gets burned it his own fault. I'd hate to be involved in that mess, but nobody is being deceived. As a story I think it's important to remember ep 1 where Midge goes to great lengths to rock the mother/wife/daughter role she finds herself in. All self-sacrifice for the privilege it gets her. Until one day she gets cheated out of the life because someone else wants out. Life smacks her and tells her she can't expect anyone else to put her happiness first, she's got to take care of number one. She can come back to Joel if that's what she thinks she wants, but self-preservation makes her do it on her own terms.
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  #88  
Old 01-16-2019, 01:08 PM
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I get the impression that a lot of them are a lot more patriarchal on the surface than inside.
Which is a thread at every level of the show. You only get your way as long as everyone lets you.
  #89  
Old 01-16-2019, 01:27 PM
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from someone working in academia, the "take the sabbatical, Abe" line is spot-on...
  #90  
Old 01-16-2019, 02:35 PM
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Well, they're still married, so... I can agree she's treading a grey area that I'm not entirely comfortable with. In the storm of marital chaos Joel is getting his fill of unsatisfying bimbos, but he wants real Midge (not the "perfect Midge" he left), Midge is entertaining the possibility of Dr. Right who just isn't right; but she wants her children's father and the guy who will actively stand for her. And Dr. Right is ultimately meddling in an unresolved marriage--if he gets burned it his own fault. I'd hate to be involved in that mess, but nobody is being deceived. As a story I think it's important to remember ep 1 where Midge goes to great lengths to rock the mother/wife/daughter role she finds herself in. All self-sacrifice for the privilege it gets her. Until one day she gets cheated out of the life because someone else wants out. Life smacks her and tells her she can't expect anyone else to put her happiness first, she's got to take care of number one. She can come back to Joel if that's what she thinks she wants, but self-preservation makes her do it on her own terms.
She a fictional character so I’m not going to get all that spun up, but she’s cheating pure and simple. In 1959, if a guy is lobbying a woman’s father for permission to marry him, with her approval and support, than he has every expectation that she wasn’t sleeping with her soon to be ex-husband. Now that I type that, I think that same expectation would exist in 2019.

And as I stated up thread, if the sexes were reversed, the male Maisel character would be getting killed here. But the pretty, fun female Maisel is getting a pass.
  #91  
Old 01-16-2019, 03:34 PM
nightshadea nightshadea is online now
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I get the impression that a lot of them are a lot more patriarchal on the surface than inside. Many fall somewhere between "I make every decision (except those on stuff I don't care about, which actually happens to be most daily stuff)" and "I make all important decisions, but there haven't been any important ones since I got married". I know quite a few rl couples where the husband lows "Iiiiii'm a buuuuuuulll! Iiiiiii'm the moooooost machoooooo!" while his quietly-smiling wife drives him like a toy car. But of course, to someone who doesn't understand what those wives are doing, it absolutely looks like Mr. Bull is in charge.
this is 90 percent of every marriage ive ever seen unless the wife has proclaimed charge of everything …….

ive never seen the show but it seems to have a pre feminist bent of " om got going to wait for people to let me do anything im going to do it like it or not without permission from anyone

Last edited by nightshadea; 01-16-2019 at 03:38 PM.
  #92  
Old 01-16-2019, 03:39 PM
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erm im not
  #93  
Old 01-16-2019, 03:46 PM
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Sort of. A bit more like, "I performed the duties of my various stations as daughter, wife, and mother and got shafted anyway. So since The System doesn't shield me despite doing my part, I'm going to do what I want and everyone else can adjust to me for a change." More eloquently put, but that's kind of it. More humanist than feminist though, I'd say. It's just that in that era, any woman making her own way would be noteworthy. It's not really a Girlpower show, although there's some of that.
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