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  #51  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:55 PM
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Chicago after Terry Kath died. They were already drifting from rock to pop, but this shove them right over the edge.
  #52  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Johanna View Post
Genesis lost their unique sound after Steve Hackett left in 1977. They had already made two good Genesis albums without Peter Gabriel: A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering, both from 1976. Everyone has always made a big deal of Gabriel's split from Genesis, but they came back strong without Gabriel; it was the loss of Hackett that precipitated their sudden drop-off in quality.
Thank you! That's exactly what I was going to say. Most people who know a bit about Genesis would say the drop-off happened after Gabriel left, and that did make a difference in the band to be sure. But folks who know more than a bit about the band realize that it was the loss of Steve Hackett two albums later (two FINE and very Genesis-sy albums) that fundamentally changed the band, and not in a good way.

I've always the found band's comments on Hackett's departure to be disingenuous and quite funny. They claimed there were too many different sounds and phrases competing with each other and that it would become less chaotic without Hackett's sweeping guitar wails and atmospherics.

I don't know how they kept a straight face while spewing such bullshit. It's like: "Yeah. This symphony orchestra will sound great just as soon as we eliminate all the violins. They're just getting in the way. Too many notes!"


Last edited by I Love Me, Vol. I; 08-15-2019 at 02:16 PM. Reason: For kicks
  #53  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:23 PM
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(Now, if only BS&T had re-hired Al Kooper and Steve Katz and gone back to the jazz-rock fusion of that first lineup...)

You're not kidding, digs. BS&T's second album was decent. I liked their covers of Satie, Laura Nyro, and Billie Holiday. "Sometime in Winter" was a good song and "Spinning Wheel" and "You Make Me so Very Happy" were good Top 40 hits. However, the album wasn't nearly as good as Child is Father to the Man. After the second album, things really went south, IMO>
  #54  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:36 PM
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Kajagoogoo fired Limahl, changed the band name to Kaja. Splat.


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  #55  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:46 PM
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I think REM began a long downhill slide after Bill Berry left. I didn't realize how involved he was in the band's songwriting. They were still better than most bands around, but there's just a lot lacking for me in REM's post-Berry material.
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Old 08-15-2019, 03:51 PM
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I don't know if this fits the thread exactly, but the loss of Tom Johnston from the Doobie Brothers allowed Michael McDonald to completely ruin the band's musical style.
But they enjoyed great commercial success with McDonald. Minute by Minute was, by far, their most successful album and McDonald wrote some of their biggest selling songs.
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  #57  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:57 PM
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Most people who know a bit about Genesis would say the drop-off happened after Gabriel left, and that did make a difference in the band to be sure. But folks who know more than a bit about the band realize that it was the loss of Steve Hackett two albums later (two FINE and very Genesis-sy albums) that fundamentally changed the band, and not in a good way.
It may not have been in a way you or I would have liked, but Genesis was far, FAR more successful after Hackett left. They had a string of 6 consecutive Platinum (US) albums after he left. They never had one with Hackett or Gabriel.
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  #58  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:58 PM
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There must be solo artists who had support/collaboration from another musician who split and they went downhill... anyone know of one?

Like if David Rawlings left Gillian Welch and she started doing commercial jingles...

Or if Peter White stopped playing with Al Stewart (loved their work together in the 80s, looks like they're still at it).
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:02 PM
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It may not have been in a way you or I would have liked, but Genesis was far, FAR more successful after Hackett left. They had a string of 6 consecutive Platinum (US) albums after he left. They never had one with Hackett or Gabriel.

I listen to a band because I like their music, not how much money they can make.
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:07 PM
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I'd say Cliff Burton from Metallica to me is the one who is most striking once pointed out.

He brought the proggy elements to Metallica, and not just him, I think he inspired the rest to do more with their talents.

His contribution to And Justice For All was clearly there, so still kind of one of his albums, though I'd love to heard the remixed version where they actually mixed in Newsteads bass playing to make it like the album it should have been, rather than the tinny half album it was.

After that, they put out an almost Metallica tribute album without the "love" in the black album, and that was that.
Re bolded: here ya go. And Justice for Jason. It sounds like a whole new and wonderful album, as it always should have been!
https://youtu.be/xtT_XSBdOj8
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  #61  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:17 PM
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Chicago after Terry Kath died. They were already drifting from rock to pop, but this shove them right over the edge.
I would say Terry Kath is vastly underrated as a guitarist, but I think they went over the edge with Chicago VIII. That was a big drop-off without any change of personnel as VI was a pretty good album, and VII was brilliant.
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Old 08-15-2019, 06:09 PM
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I listen to a band because I like their music, not how much money they can make.
Becoming more and more popular doesn't seem to fit the definition of 'drop off'.
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  #63  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:20 PM
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In this thread: A whole heaping pile of de gustibus. I particularly appreciate the posts that say the bands in question went downhill right before having multiple hits, or even multiple hit albums.
  #64  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:24 PM
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I think REM began a long downhill slide after Bill Berry left. I didn't realize how involved he was in the band's songwriting. They were still better than most bands around, but there's just a lot lacking for me in REM's post-Berry material.
This, though the drop-off is yet more drastic for me: I can’t stand anything after New Adventures in Hi-Fi, and I love almost everything up to and including that.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 08-15-2019 at 07:25 PM.
  #65  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:29 PM
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Two of my favorite albums of all time are Misplaced Childhood and Clutching at Straws by Marillion. After Fish left/was kicked out the band went straight to Hell. I know they’ve been chugging along for decades but I just can’t listen to Hogarth.
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Old 08-15-2019, 07:31 PM
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Wall of Voodoo without Stan Ridgway wasn't anywhere near as good.
  #67  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:47 PM
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I particularly appreciate the posts that say the bands in question went downhill right before having multiple hits, or even multiple hit albums.
In the case of my pick -- 10,000 Maniacs -- the band went from:
In My Tribe (Double Platinum)
Blind Man's Zoo (Platinum)
Our Time in Eden (Double Platinum)
MTV Unplugged (Triple Platinum)

to

Love Among the Ruins (charted #104; group dropped by Geffen)
The Earth Pressed Flat (didn't chart)
Music from the Motion Picture (didn't chart)
Twice Told Tales (didn't chart)
...and a handful of post-Merchant live albums which also didn't chart. Most recently as 2017.

Personal taste aside, that seems like a good argument for "went downhill fast" without the group actually breaking up.
  #68  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:51 PM
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Had tickets for the Doors, Jim Morrison died, and they toured without him. I thought, hey, I love Ray Manzarek's organ work, Robby Kreiger can play guitar, I'll still go. If they'd just done a jazzy instrumental set, I'd've been happy. But they had some bloated no-name trying to sound like Morrison. Painful.
There are a couple of not so widely-known post-Morrison Doors albums with other band members taking over the vocal parts. I don't think their singing is that good, though, especially in comparison to Morrison's voice.

Perhaps even less people are aware of a post-Lou Reed Velvet Underground album. Squeeze (1973) featured later Velvet Underground addition Doug Yule on lead vocals, guitars, keyboards, and bass guitar (and acting as producer). The line-up was completed with the drummer from Deep Purple, and someone identified only as "Malcolm" on saxophone.

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In 2012, Squeeze received both a CD release and a new LP release from Kismet, a label that specializes in reissuing obscure albums by relatively unknown acts. On the CD, a slight amount of white noise can be heard throughout, indicating that it was recorded directly from an LP copy of the album. The reissues do not appear to be officially licensed from Polydor. A disclaimer included with the release states:
Due to the obscurity of releases on this label, we are occasionally unable to locate the owner of the master recordings. As we have no desire to deprive owners of their royalties, we have created an escrow account in the hopes that the rightful owners will see these releases and contact us. This approach is far from desirable but this is the only way we can bring this music to a wider audience. Thank you for your understanding in this matter.
An e-mail address is then provided for the owner(s) of the music to contact Kismet for payment of royalties.
  #69  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:02 PM
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Two of my favorite albums of all time are Misplaced Childhood and Clutching at Straws by Marillion. After Fish left/was kicked out the band went straight to Hell. I know they’ve been chugging along for decades but I just can’t listen to Hogarth.
I love Clutching at Straws! But the first time I heard it, I thought it was so fuckin' weird I didn't know WHAT to think. The bizarre rant about anti-Semitism and alcoholism on White Russians with the slowed-down bridge where Fish croons about fresh bagels actually made me laugh out loud. But for some reason I couldn't stop listening to the album, and now I've acquired the taste.
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Old 08-15-2019, 08:17 PM
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Although they had half a dozen or so songs that could be called minor hits after Diana Ross left, you'd have to say the Supremes were a lot better with her.
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Old 08-15-2019, 09:07 PM
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If were including deaths, did anyone mention InXS? That reality show they did was so wrong.


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  #72  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:14 PM
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In the “failed temporary replacement” category:

-Motley Crue with Jon Curabi instead of Vince Neil
-Van Halen with Gary Cherrone instead of Sammy or Dave
-Stone Temple Pilots with Chester Bennington instead of Scott Weiland





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  #73  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:28 PM
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But they enjoyed great commercial success with McDonald. Minute by Minute was, by far, their most successful album and McDonald wrote some of their biggest selling songs.
Yeah, and "Sugar, Sugar" was the top hit of 1969. Success≠quality. Commercial success of a band is meaningless to me if I can't stand to listen to them.
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Old 08-15-2019, 11:30 PM
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Evanescence kinda tanked after the guy that wrote all the songs left/got kicked out by Amy Lee. They went from world tour to tumbleweeds.
They both wrote songs, but without the other to play off of the quality suffered a lot.
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Old 08-16-2019, 07:28 AM
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Chuck Negron being fired from Three Dog Night due to his heroin use.
  #76  
Old 08-16-2019, 07:46 AM
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Commercial success of a band is meaningless to me if I can't stand to listen to them.
Word. Every now and then someone stands up and points at the naked emperor, and a new punk rock band is born.
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Old 08-16-2019, 07:54 AM
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Hawkwind was never hugely successful, at least in America, so they didn't have such a great height to drop off from, but I think most Hawkwind fans would agree that the bands best stuff was delivered before the band fired their bass player Lemmy Kilmister.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:47 AM
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The correct answer...


...has to be Molly Hatchet after Danny Joe Brown left. Hence the derisive, "That's like Molly Hatchet without Danny Joe Brown!"
  #79  
Old 08-16-2019, 01:21 PM
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Though I really liked Kieth Godchaux's (RIP) early time spent with The Grateful Dead playing with and taking over for PigPen (RIP) I feel the band got better after their termination Feb 17th 1979. Brent (RIP) added what Keith never could...Sadly Brent "fired" himself 10 years later....Bruce Hornsby did a good job in the interim getting Vince Welnick (RIP) up to speed.

Donna and Keith definitely needed replaced....the other keyboardists not so much.
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:59 PM
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I'm shocked that Bruce Hornsby is still alive.
  #81  
Old 08-16-2019, 02:42 PM
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Though I really liked Kieth Godchaux's (RIP) early time spent with The Grateful Dead playing with and taking over for PigPen (RIP) I feel the band got better after their termination Feb 17th 1979. Brent (RIP) added what Keith never could...Sadly Brent "fired" himself 10 years later....Bruce Hornsby did a good job in the interim getting Vince Welnick (RIP) up to speed.

Donna and Keith definitely needed replaced....the other keyboardists not so much.
Totally posted in wrong thread....
The Dead got BETTER after Keith and Donna left....my bad.
  #82  
Old 08-16-2019, 04:02 PM
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This, though the drop-off is yet more drastic for me: I can’t stand anything after New Adventures in Hi-Fi, and I love almost everything up to and including that.
Absolutely the same for me. I like every album up to "New Adventures...", this one especially as one of the great "on-the-road" albums, but everything that came after does nothing for me.
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  #83  
Old 08-16-2019, 04:40 PM
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The Clash weren't so hot sans Mr. Jones when he hit the road...
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:13 PM
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Everything the Sex Pistols put out after Glen Matlock left was nothing more than gimmicks (you can argue that everything the Pistols ever released was a gimmick, but at least with Matlock is was musically solid). The best musician in the band left for a non-musician, and it showed. (That changes nothing about the fact that I like "The Great Rock'n'Roll Swindle". It's eccentric, bizarre and fun, but also merely a novelty.)
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Old 08-16-2019, 08:28 PM
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I'm a long-time Pink Floyd fan, and my favorite albums are probably Animals and Wish You Were Here. As for the post-Wall albums, I really like The Final Cut and The Division Bell, and most of Waters's solo stuff, but I can't stand most of A Momentary Lapse of Reason.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:49 PM
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Joy Division after Ian Curtis died and the band changed its name to New Order.
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Old 08-17-2019, 03:43 AM
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It may not have been in a way you or I would have liked, but Genesis was far, FAR more successful after Hackett left. They had a string of 6 consecutive Platinum (US) albums after he left. They never had one with Hackett or Gabriel.
That's true but record sales are not what I consider the mark of a good band. In the case of Genesis the albums that sold more records were not as good as the earlier ones.

That's a drop-off.

And the biggest drop-off in song/album quality and musicianship? It was after Steve Hackett left the band.
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Old 08-17-2019, 08:02 AM
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Joy Division after Ian Curtis died and the band changed its name to New Order.
I just realized that I posted this in the wrong thread. This was supposed to be in the biggest improvement thread...
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Old 08-17-2019, 08:11 AM
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That's true but record sales are not what I consider the mark of a good band.
The OP didn't specify "biggest drop-off" in WHAT. So it seems to me that a drop-off in commercial success, a drop-off in quality, or a drop-off in how much you personally like them are all legitimate interpretations.
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Old 08-17-2019, 09:49 AM
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The OP didn't specify "biggest drop-off" in WHAT. So it seems to me that a drop-off in commercial success, a drop-off in quality, or a drop-off in how much you personally like them are all legitimate interpretations.
I agree. As long as you don't call commercial success "the band got better". It pains me that I'll never see a concert with the Peter Green version of Fleetwood Mac, but I'll admit the Buckingham/Nicks version was more successful.

And, am I the only person in the world who likes every Pink Floyd album?

I feel kind of lucky... to have liked Waters and Gilmour. Gabriel and Collins. And Van Hagar was almost as good... Kooper and Clayton-Thomas. Eno and Ferry... And Best and... naah, had to be Starr.
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:06 AM
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There's some good songs on the Buckingham/Nicks album.... Of course, Buckingham was hired, but he said they were a packaged deal, so Stevie Nicks showed her loyalty by firing him for SMIRKING!

I especially love "Long-Distance Winner"

but I preferred Peter Green and Danny Kirwan (especially when they were together, moving from Jeremy's Spencer's Bo Diddley slide guitar stuff).. Bob Welch had a hell of a voice. I like "Rumours" and maybe 3-4 songs on their double album "Tusk", but not really anything after.
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Old 08-17-2019, 12:23 PM
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And, am I the only person in the world who likes every Pink Floyd album?
No. I happen to think A Momentary Lapse of Reason is a fine album. The whole "A New Machine/Terminal Frost" suite is fantastic.

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I feel kind of lucky... to have liked Waters and Gilmour. Gabriel and Collins. And Van Hagar was almost as good... Kooper and Clayton-Thomas. Eno and Ferry... And Best and... naah, had to be Starr.
This. Genesis has always been one of my favorite bands. I totally agree with the others in this thread who have stated there was a drop off in quality after Hackett left. But that doesn't mean their later output was bad. Some of the poppier tunes I could do without (like "Follow You Follow Me," I can't stand that song), but each later album had at least couple of tracks that stayed somewhat true to their glory days.

Likewise with Hagar and Van Halen. The Roth years were the best, but the Hagar years were almost as good. Their sound matured, they lost a little of the raw power, but that's ok.
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Old 08-17-2019, 03:56 PM
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Whew, thanks for agreeing with me, GESancMan. Since I posted that, I've been wondering if I'm just too positive for my own good.


Oh, and The Kingston Trio lost a creative genius when Dave Guard* left, but the later albums (and the witty live performances) with John Stewart soon made up for that.

*(what, you don't keep up with the Hawaiian banjo scene?)
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:31 PM
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There’s been a lot of mention of Genesis, but the biggest drop off was when Phil Collins left. Rutherford and Banks put out Calling All Stations with Ray Wilson and it was a horrible flop. The US tour was canceled and the band returned to playing smaller arenas in Europe that were more reminiscent of where they played in the early 1970s. No more sold out stadiums and arenas until Phil came back for the reunion tour.

And, it’s good that they all get along to this day. I’ve heard a story that they even kept drummer John Mayhew’s royalty checks from Trespass when he disappeared after he was replaced by Phil Collins and gave them to him once he re-emerged.
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:41 PM
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Unless I missed something, nobody mention Keith Moon and The Who. They were good with him gone, but not the same. I'd say the same about Montrose after Sammy Hagar left.
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Old 08-18-2019, 01:04 AM
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And, it’s good that they all get along to this day. I’ve heard a story that they even kept drummer John Mayhew’s royalty checks from Trespass when he disappeared after he was replaced by Phil Collins and gave them to him once he re-emerged.
That's a great story!
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Old 08-18-2019, 01:25 PM
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Unless I missed something, nobody mention Keith Moon and The Who. They were good with him gone, but not the same.
You missed two somethings. Posts 22 and 49.
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Old 08-18-2019, 03:18 PM
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I think The Who died with Keith.... The replacement drummers not only didn't fit in, they weren't great to begin with. Just being a member of a successful band, or the son of a successful drummer shouldn't be everything (I hate nepotism, especially in art)
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Old 08-18-2019, 09:44 PM
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My kid made the comment "All my favorite bands are part dead." Huh? "Beatles, Zep'lin, Ramones, Who... half dead guys."
First I said "Someone raised you right." Then I had a brilliant idea: "You name-checked a band with a bass player and drummer gone, and one that's only got those left. So let's get The Whotles to go on tour."

Wouldn't Ringo have been a better replacement for Keith Moon?
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Old 08-18-2019, 10:07 PM
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The posters can all read "Who are The Beatles?"
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